Prolactin levels, phosphatidylserine, ginkgo biloba, b-vitamins etc.

[Snowblind]

Hi everyone!

I am 26 years old and i have POIS. I have been trying to figure out whats wrong with me for quite some time and even though i haven't had my hormone levels checked i am pretty shure i have high levels of prolactin and because of that i also have low levels of dopamin.

What works for me as i have discovered is the following:

1. phosphatidylserine in high dosages (1g before bedtime)
    It is a powerful inhibitor of prolactin and cortisol at the right dosage.
2. B-vitamins (as Kurtois have already talked so much about)
3. Ginkgo Biloba (it also lowers the levels of prolactin)
4. Tyrosine (helps to get higher levels of dopamin togeather with vitamin b6, but do not take to much because then it can have the opposite effect)
5. Vitex angus castus (I only take it before orgasm because i get heart-palptiations if i take them on regular basis)

I used to take 7-keto instead of PS but it is now illegal in my home country, but the PS works just as good.

Thoughts on this? does any one else suspect that high prolactin levels might be the case for this illness?

[Daveman]

Thanks Snowblind.

I guess the most different thing you take over what we are used to is the  phosphatidylserine. Wiki as usual has a good general description of phosphatidylserine for those interested.

As you may have read, we are tying "this recipe" more to catecholamine chain supplementation than specifically prolactin, but I'm not much of an expert so will "keep it down".

Welcome in any case. How is your POIS now with this treatment? (percent effectivity)

 

[demografx]

Hi, Snowblind,


Please see http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg1#msg1
for your full menu of POIS resources!

Snowblind, my prolactin tested 1,000% above norm, pituitary MRI recommended was normal. My doctor was baffled!

My POIS-endocrinologist said that - amazingly - they teach almost nothing about PROLACTIN IN MEN in med schools, confirmed by his asst., a recent major med school grad.

With my endo's blessing, I found my own "cure" by simply looking at Wikipedia for hyperprolactinemia (high prolactin count). The article pointed to many Rx meds with hyperprolactinemia side effect, and lo, they even named my culprit, Reglan, which I had been taking for years. I quit Reglan immediately, found a substitute, re-tested for prolactin - result: normal range!

EDIT:   Either way, prolactin didn't seem to affect my POIS.

[kurtosis]

Hey, great to have you on board snowblind.
I've tried PS but the cost in my country is so expensive that I'd be spending over $8 a day if I was to get 1g of soy-derived PS. I gave it up and added some lecithin instead. 7-keto is much cheaper & it's one of the few things I can still import here.

How much ginkgo are you taking?
I've noticed that stopping ginkgo for any more than 2 days gives me POIS symptoms again so I know it's having an effect.

Daveman: It's difficult to separate prolactin and catecholamine effects. Much of the symptoms we describe are similar to mysterious illnesses like fibromyalgia which appear to target the HPA (Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Adrenal) pathway. In terms of causes, we couldn't discount hormonal imbalances, tumours, so many things. Different POIS sufferers could have different causes. It's not possible to say it's neurotransmitters or it's just hormones. Everything is connected.

Imagine that POIS sufferers produced a prolactin surge after an O that's much more powerful than normal OR that our dopamine levels were too low to begin with OR that our dopamine receptor levels were too low. Having lower than average dopamine receptor levels in some parts of the brain is not necessarily a bad thing. It depends on the levels of receptors and other factors. These can be the difference between creative genius and schizophrenia.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100518064610.htm

Anyway, prolactin increases in these circumstances would be like shutting off the dopamine tap in your brain. Prolactin is released to protect the brain from too much dopamine released during an O. But what if there was too little to start with or somehow the dopamine release isn't high enough OR too much dopamine gets converted into norepinephrine. All these things could have similar effects. Too little dopamine floating around following an O.

Dopamine helps orchestrate the interworking between the different parts of your brain required for cognition. It's not just a "pleasure" neurotransmitter. One of the symptoms I've noticed with POIS is that the ability to concentrate and focus on something disappears. It's such a curious symptom. I can still remember the first time it happened. I felt in shock. It made no sense. Instead of focus there's chatter and it feels like you cannot control your thoughts.

This led me to the conclusion that POIS, for me anyway, can bring about schizophrenic like symptoms if not treated and I think the reason is dopamine levels.

 240mg of ginkgo appears to counteract much of this for me. P5P/b6 also reduces prolactin secretion. Vitex (as snow-blind has said) is an effective prolactin secretion inhibitor. Taking things which boost dopamine will oppose prolactin and reduce levels.

Taking hormones which oppose oestrogen and hence prolactin secretion may also work. e.g. DHEA, 7-keto DHEA, Pregnenolone, Progesterone (complex effect here - both raises and lowers levels) and of course Testosterone. Too much of either and there's a problem of conversion between hormones known as aromatisation.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase

[Daveman]

Kurtosis,

What  you say is completely compatible to what we've seen among our members. "nobody is alike", or it's difficult to fit one person into a specific group; there are so many groups. YET there IS a common thread, which is very inspiring.

It seems that the cure for POIS will boil down to there being a speciality field among endocrinologists or something. Once they are "trained", at least we would have a place to go, and wouldn't have them looking at us like we're crazy.

Without sounding like a broken record we DO know how that training would have to come about.

My particular case is inflammation related. When I orgasm, eyes water, joints inflame, "down there" gets al swollen and itchy from the base of the penis to the anus. And BOY does that ever itch. Niacin avoids the cognitive effects (thank God) and perhaps alleviates the "allergic reactions", but those still cause me some discomfort.

[kurtosis]

Kurtosis,

What  you say is completely compatible to what we've seen among our members. "nobody is alike", or it's difficult to fit one person into a specific group; there are so many groups. YET there IS a common thread, which is very inspiring.

It seems that the cure for POIS will boil down to there being a speciality field among endocrinologists or something. Once they are "trained", at least we would have a place to go, and wouldn't have them looking at us like we're crazy.

Without sounding like a broken record we DO know how that training would have to come about.

My particular case is inflammation related. When I orgasm, eyes water, joints inflame, "down there" gets al swollen and itchy from the base of the penis to the anus. And BOY does that ever itch. Niacin avoids the cognitive effects (thank God) and perhaps alleviates the "allergic reactions", but those still cause me some discomfort.

Yeah, fed up of talking to Doctors who assume you're crazy when you say you have an illness involving orgasms and cognitive symptoms.

I guess the interesting point about the "many paths to POIS" hypothesis is that if that's the case then there must be people on other fora with other illnesses affecting their HPA who are having Orgasm related problems. Another possibility is that we have a male variant of some hormonal problem that occurs mostly in women which would mean that doctors would be clueless about it. Doctors are pretty clueless about prolactin levels in men anyway

Have you ever waited a few hours from taking niacin to having an O? I know I said this before but theoretically the prostaglandin increase which may have an inhibitory effect on an allergic reaction caused by POIS would actually increase for a few hours. Having an O too quickly may diminish the effects.

[Daveman]

Well, I have convinced myself to try it, but so far I've been to horny to wait!!

I'll try it the next time (I promise)! I'll have to send my wife out of the room for an hour or so!

[Snowblind]

Thank u guys for welcoming me!

Kurtosis: I take 120 mg of ginkgo/day. I did take more before (240mg) but i believe i got a bit of a headache of it so i lowered the dose. In my oppinion the phosphatidylserine works the best but only in high dosages. I read somewhere that under 800mg a day didn't have a significant effect on lowering cortisol and prolactin levels but 800mg/day and up to 1g/day (dont need to take more than that) it was just like flicking a switch from no significant effect to very good effect. So it is definitely dose dependant. I actually buy my phosphatidylserine from the states at allstarhealth, jarrows PS100 (one months supply of 1g/day for aprox. 75 USD), not cheap but cheaper than 8 USD a day.

Daveman: Id say that my POIS is about 80% cured with this, sometimes i have no POIS symptoms at al and sometimes there are some symptoms but not close to how it used to be. I was suicidal during a rather long period of time and i didn't know it then but POIS was definitely a contributing factor because i had no real reason to feel that depressed. But now i am never that low thank god! (=

Although i am perfectly happy with my own recipe i wonder if anyone have tried S-Adenosyl methionine also known as SAM-e? It seems to be an interesting supplement whit prolactin inhibiting effect and many other effects.

Demografx: So your POIS was just as bad when your prolactin levels where normal? Did you also have your dopamin-levels checked?

[kurtosis]

Thank u guys for welcoming me!

Kurtosis: I take 120 mg of ginkgo/day. I did take more before (240mg) but i believe i got a bit of a headache of it so i lowered the dose. In my oppinion the phosphatidylserine works the best but only in high dosages. I read somewhere that under 800mg a day didn't have a significant effect on lowering cortisol and prolactin levels but 800mg/day and up to 1g/day (dont need to take more than that) it was just like flicking a switch from no significant effect to very good effect. So it is definitely dose dependant. I actually buy my phosphatidylserine from the states at allstarhealth, jarrows PS100 (one months supply of 1g/day for aprox. 75 USD), not cheap but cheaper than 8 USD a day.

Daveman: Id say that my POIS is about 80% cured with this, sometimes i have no POIS symptoms at al and sometimes there are some symptoms but not close to how it used to be. I was suicidal during a rather long period of time and i didn't know it then but POIS was definitely a contributing factor because i had no real reason to feel that depressed. But now i am never that low thank god! (=

Although i am perfectly happy with my own recipe i wonder if anyone have tried S-Adenosyl methionine also known as SAM-e? It seems to be an interesting supplement whit prolactin inhibiting effect and many other effects.

Demografx: So your POIS was just as bad when your prolactin levels where normal? Did you also have your dopamin-levels checked?

I tried SAM-e. It was very good. I'd put it on a par with 2 capsules of ALCAR arginate in terms of it's immediate cognition restorative effects. I'm not sure it has the same long term benefits in terms of NGF increase but it gave a short term improvement in treating POIS. I had under 1 months' supply so I didn't get to try it again. Unfortunately, it's prescription only in my country and doctors refuse to prescribe it. But hey, if I want SSRI's, I can get prescribed multiple AD's in the morning just by turning up at my family doctor and saying I feel depressed. There's something wrong there! 

I tried 3 online retailers and couldn't find any that would ship SAM-e to me. I've considered picking some more up on my travels.

Demografx: There's little doubt that supplementary testosterone elevates dopamine levels, at least from a low baseline in a hypogonadal state.

[kurtosis]

The methylation cycle, histamine and the role of methionine, methyfolate and phosphatides (including phosphatidyl serine) in methylation are described in this paper by Dr. Amy Yasko.
http://www.psychiatryburbankca.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Methionine_and_Methylation_Chicken_or_the_Egg1.pdf

it's heavy going but it updates old theories about methylation with new genetic knowledge and practical experience of treating various neurological disorders by manipulating the methylation pathways.

There are a few interesting aspects to this.
1) Methylation impairments affect histamine levels. This is known. It's not conjecture.
2) Methylation impairments may lead to autoimmune diseases. This is not established yet but ties in with the use of methyl group in DNA/RNA replication of antibodies.
3) People don't magically know if they have an impairment in their methylation pathways which involve multiple genes and are very complicated. It needs genetic testing.
4) When she's treating patients she doesn't go for short term gains by loading one substrate of the methylation reaction as this may unbalance other reactions in the body.
5) It's very complex. What works for one person may not work for someone else (or may require additional supplementation or take much longer to work) simply because someone may have multiple impairments due to genetic mutations (called SNP's) which affect the synthesis and efficacy of enzymes in the body. For example someone who is really sensitive to the smell of perfumes and wines (by sensitive I mean it makes them feel sick) may have an SUOX mutation. This person may need extra b12 or methyl b12 but this treatment may make them sick unless their diet has been modified first and they have adequate levels of boron or manganese. Nothing is straightforward, take this and get better...

I've read a lot about Yasko's work and even if POIS was a methylation disorder, nobody would get better overnight. There may be improvement but it wouldn't be seamless. There's just too much that can go wrong. You eat the wrong thing. Have a more stressful day. Pick up a cold or infection.  All these things can affect how someone feels when they have methylation impairments. Progress is measured in months and years. Not days.

[demografx]

Demografx: So your POIS was just as bad when your prolactin levels where normal?

Yes.

Did you also have your dopamin-levels checked?

Not necessary, as TRT seemed to be the right path to my cure. Also, I'm not really convinced how accurate today's average lab is equipped for testing dopamine and neurotransmitters, unless done with expensive, state-of-the-art equipment and highly expert specialized technicians and doctors.

[berlin1984]

User BenFinn seems to have good experience with similar supplements: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4356