Stumbled onto something potentially huge!

[haidcat]

This theory already has some backing here:https://sites.google.com/site/poiswebsite/test-page/orgasm-induced-catecholamine-imbalance-via-pituitary-dysfunction
Ive got a theory here, that might explain alot of symptoms of POIS, and why niacin/continual vitamin b complex supplmentation is working for alot of us. To make it short, POIS could be a debilitating reaction to a massive adrenaline surge during orgasm. This reaction can last for DAYS, yes days. Hyperadrenergic disrorders are different from just plain stress/anxiety, in that it really is an overload of pure adrenaline coursing through your veins that can be caused by orgasm, eating, running, etc. Many patients who have hyperadrenergic POTS, report that it can sometimes take days to recover from an adrenaline surge episode, and the symtpoms include dizziness, brain fog, muscle pain, palpitations, dry mouth, digestive problems....

And guess what vitamin b3 has been shown to be really good for??? thats right, adrenaline surges... Look at this quote, "Accordingly, they decided to use high doses of niacin, another natural methyl acceptor, to reduce the conversion rate of noradrenaline to adrenaline and then to adrenochrome. Double-blind controlled experiments conducted on acute schizophrenics with high doses of niacin (usually 3 to 6 g daily) were very successful, outperforming the then conventional treatments and reducing suicide rates.26 Niacin can lower the body's production of adrenochrome and its derivatives."-Dr. Abram Hoffer, MD, FRCP (C) and Dr. Harold D. Foster, PhD, Feel Better, Live Longer with Vitamin B-3

As to how Niacin could be specifically working for this problem: Niacin is a known methylacceptor(it grabs and steals methyl groups). Adrenaline is made from norepinephrine by the addiion of a methyl group. Therefore the niacin protection could be clocking the conversion of norepinephrine to adrenaline, protecting people from the adrenaline surge, and also probably preventing a relative defieincy in noreinephirine( a neutotransmittor heavily involved with depression, lack of concentration, brain fog, etc, if there is a lack of it).

In sum, the vast majority of us could be dealing with a hyperadrenaline episode during orgasm, which can last for days, and which would make a lot of sense as to why niacin works for up to several hours(its blocking the massive adrenaline surge). To those who are not helped by niacin/b complex.... it very well could be an allergic response, or something else entirely...OR you could have a hyperadrenaline disorder which gets triggers NOT ONLY by orgasm, but by eating, sleeeping, exercising etc, hence the constant POIS.

Just food for thought on the issue

[haidcat]

As an addendum: look at this link for the symptoms of something called POTS(a condition characterized by rapid heart beat due to adrenaline problems)- http://potsweb.50webs.com/

Symptoms include: flu-like feeling, fatigue, palpitations, digestive problems, feeling of pressure behind the eyes, aching muscles, urinate frequently..... the list goes on and on...

I also want to add, that this theory does not have to contradict the allergy theory. It very well could be that the activation of mast cells by semen in the urethra triggers a hyperadrenal episode, and that the most debilitating symptoms of POIS come from the fatigue of an adrenal episode AND a temporary defiency in Norepinephrine, while the nasal congestion, red eyes, and sneezing come from the pure allergy component of the problem.

[demografx]

Testosterone has helped several of us. Does this treatment fit your adrenaline surge theory? Thanks.

[haidcat]

Look at this article on rat hearts, testosterone inhibits the release of norepinephrine into rat hearts, meaning it prevents it from reaching the heart where it eventually converts to adrenaline causing the surge: http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/ebm/record/22282243/abstract/Effects_of_testosterone_on_norepinephrine_release_in_isolated_rat_heart_

Also this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6684059

Testosterone makes u pee out norepinephrine(by making the kidneys build it up and excrete it), preventing the surge because norepinephrine is the precuroser to adrenaline: http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/32/5/880.full

[haidcat]

This theory explains why niacin works(prevents the conversion of norepinephrine to adrenaline), why testosterone works(it has been shown to block the adrenaline precursor,norepinephrine, release from cells along with making you pee out adrenalines precursor). It also explains why antidepressants/high protein have worked for some, it could be replinishing the neurotransmittor precursors to adrenaline, that are heavily depleted after the orgasm surge. Also this explains why a low glycemic diet works for some.... adrenaline and cortisol play a massive role in hypoglycemia, indeed, some of the terrbile symptoms from a hypoglycemic episode come from the massive adrenaline surge. Combine someones hypoglycemia with the rigours of an orgasm, and u could easily have terrible symptoms.

In effect, we could have something going on here very similar to  hyperadrenergic POTS(postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome) except that instead of getting a massive norepinephrine release into our blood (which converts to adrenaline) upon standing...... we get it upon orgasm.

Theoretically beta blockers before orgasm should do the same thing as niacin, so it can be tested in this theory. BUT, niacin prevents conversion of norepinephrine to adrenaline, while beta blockers just blockadrenaline after its made. So niacin could be preventing adrenaline surges+ preventing adrenaline precursor neurotransmittor deficiencies, while beta blockers would only prevent the surge.

[demografx]

Fascinating!

[haidcat]

Guess what was abnormally high on habibous blood test several threads down? Noradrenaline!  Let's see what daveman thinks

[poisioq]

in the last years only once I've been pois free after an O.
it was when i was forced to eat almost nothing for weeks because of an acute gastrointestinal problem.
could your theory explain also that?
because of that i'm lately thinking that the cause could be some hidden methabolic disorder, even if my blood tests are always ok

[haidcat]

My guess would be that during that tIme period u regulated ur blood sugars with ur eating habits this regulation prevented an adrenaline surge during orgasm

[haidcat]

Let me state again I think this issue is comPlex I think this is a adrenaline surge and allergy problem not just one or the other. The adrenaline surge explains the most horrible symptOms which last from 1-4 days. The mast cell allergy cascade would account for the symptoms which last much longer: nasal congestion itchy eyes muscle pain. And in regards to the muscle pain I'm in the process of experimenting with quercetin a known mast cell inhibitor. This should stop the allergic symptoms although it seems niacin does too. It seems niacin helps stoP allergy cascades through pgd2 release and it stops adrenaline surges with its methyl group grabbing.

[poisioq]

My guess would be that during that tIme period u regulated ur blood sugars with ur eating habits this regulation prevented an adrenaline surge during orgasm

ok thanks.
but how the blood sugars are related to adrenaline?
since then I am following a diet very low in sugars, but it cannot really be stricter than this, i am under weight. and this diet is not helping me with my POIS. even if i am one of the most lucky here because my symptoms last only one day

[Observer]

Let me state again I think this issue is comPlex I think this is a adrenaline surge and allergy problem not just one or the other. The adrenaline surge explains the most horrible symptOms which last from 1-4 days. The mast cell allergy cascade would account for the symptoms which last much longer: nasal congestion itchy eyes muscle pain. And in regards to the muscle pain I'm in the process of experimenting with quercetin a known mast cell inhibitor. This should stop the allergic symptoms although it seems niacin does too. It seems niacin helps stoP allergy cascades through pgd2 release and it stops adrenaline surges with its methyl group grabbing.

Wow haidcat, I like your reasoning. You know, the months before i got POIS I bet that I was getting massive surge of adrenaline constantly(due to emotional responses to an external event - I really liked a girl, so every time I saw her my heart rate spiked, and I produced a lot of adrenaline  ) Then something bad happened between us and I crashed, literally. I stopped to have these massive adrenaline surges and I began to feel lethargic,with cloudy thinking,etc. Then, my POIS appeared(at 18)... I got the same HORRIBLE symptoms until I discovered this forum, when I began my own "research" -mostly helped by peoples experiences here. And niacin works wonders on me. 180 mg of pure Niacin means NO POIS. And I do not need to take anything more after or before the Orgasm.

I do not know if my personal experience fits in your theory. The emotional hit that i received from this experience was a hurricane in the following years. I do not know where I would be right now if it were not for this forum and its people.  

[borgir226]

Haidcat, I had to chime in even though I wasn't registered! Anyway - you're the man! Many people don't realize that the POIS feeling is from a large part a feeling of an constant adrenaline rush without the possibility to calm down. That's why tranquilizers like Xanax seems to take a big portion of the negative feelings away. Anyway I suspect the beta-blockers (or alpha beta combined) won't help much as they would not really affect enough of the various epinephrine receptors throughout the body. I have some experience with them and yeah, Niacin was much much better.

And don't forget this - Adrenaline (Epinephrine) is a huge histamine blocker/eliminator. This could explain the runny nose and other phantom allergy symptoms.

Another piece to the puzzle! Now to find the source of all of this chaos.

[haidcat]

I really think we might be getting somewhere with this! I suspect the source of all this could be several different things coming together: anxiety disorders, allergic response to semen, and possible hypoglycemia. Anxiety, allergies, and hypoglycemia all release the stress hormones cortisol and adrenaline..... If all/some these issues are at play POIS symptoms will very easily occur. It will be similar to the fatigue every man experiences after orgasm but on steroids(our bodies are already in a weakened state and orgasm just pushes us to the edge). Since it seems this issue involves both endocrine and allergy issues, its no wonder there is a broad category of solutions to this issue. Because of the great research of others we know that niacin potentially has anti-allergy properties through prostaglandin and serotonin releases, and with the potential find that niacin blocks conversion to adrenaline, it seems we might be closer to what exactly is going on here.

I would say the basics of it is this: half of the people on here have some sort of adrenal issue either stemming from anxiety disorders or bad diet/hypoglycemia and half the people on here get an adrenal response from their body try to attack their sperm in an allergic manner. Both problems lead to adrenal surges and the subsequent fatigue.

[jivetalk]

Haidcat,

This is potentially Huge! Love your Theory, love to hear this thrashed out over the coming weeks on here!

"usually 3 to 6 g daily", Wow I wonder if this could potentially help our POIS also. Daily doses are definitely better than timing it. I wonder if they are referring to Nicotinic Acid or Niacidimide etc....

JT

[Daveman]

Guess what was abnormally high on habibous blood test several threads down? Noradrenaline!  Let's see what daveman thinks

Wish I was enough of an expert to say. But it does sound super interesting.

[kurtosis]

My guess would be that during that tIme period u regulated ur blood sugars with ur eating habits this regulation prevented an adrenaline surge during orgasm

ok thanks.
but how the blood sugars are related to adrenaline?
since then I am following a diet very low in sugars, but it cannot really be stricter than this, i am under weight. and this diet is not helping me with my POIS. even if i am one of the most lucky here because my symptoms last only one day

They're related. ACTH is produced by the anterior pituitary gland in response to stress. This stimulates the production of adrenaline and also cortisol which is produced in the adrenal gland. Cortisol is part of glucose homeostasis (keeping the levels balanced) produced when there's a low blood sugar (sometimes called a "fasted state" ) to increase/maintain glucose levels in the blood. This is done via gluconeogenesis and involves the liver generating glucose from non-carbohydrate sources (i.e. not using sugars). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis
A diet which is too low in sugars might convince your body it needs to generate more cortisol.

This is fine unless you already have some condition which leads to above average cortisol levels. It's not your body's fault. It's trying to do the "create cortisol to get more glucose" trick and it doesn't know you already have too much. This is one of the problems of homeostatic reactions. They can go badly wrong, your body tries to balance the chemicals in the reaction at the wrong level and while you still function, you get sick.

Generally, it's a chicken and egg thing. If you have an allergy / auto-immune disorder then the increase in cortisol will itself cause you immunological problems. Which is to blame for the severity of POIS symptoms? I don't know. One sure thing is that over time, symptoms would get worse without treatment.

There's also the problem that there can be a psychosomatic response to various psychological stressors that would cause ACTH release. Therefore an ACTH cause for POIS is something that worries me, ironically. Ways of calming the brain during over-stimulation by epinephrine could include raising GABA levels using supplements like taurine. There are prescription drugs also. It's been popular to prescribe valium in the past but this is not a path I'd go down. There are many many things I'd rather take than valium as it's addictive with some nasty side effects and horrible withdrawal symptoms. Another possibility is to target the hypothetical immune reaction causing the adrenalergic response  (purely a theory) which would reduce the production of ACTH.

I'm sure cortisol is part of the symptoms we're suffering but I'm not sure whether it's the primary cause. I've asked people a few times about pituitary disorders and anybody who has been tested seems to say they're fine. Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here

I also noticed that Habbibou was short in vitamin D. The body can make it's own vitamin D (using ultra violet light) and one of the ingredients in this reaction is cholesterol. This is also used to make cortisol. So when you're under stress you show low vitamin D levels. vitamin D supplementation is one thing that can help manage stress. fish oils are good for this. Cod liver oil would probably be the best.

[Daveman]

Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here

It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names! 

[fidalgo]

Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here

It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names! 

Fantastic idea. It?s a small cientific research... I want to help and participate in this...

[Daveman]

OK, let's get a few more that are willing and maybe we can start something!