Stumbled onto something potentially huge!

[kurtosis]

Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here

It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names! 

It seems my initials fit
Something I'm also wondering about is whether phenotype DNA testing such as that done on 23andme would reveal anything. I haven't had it done but I'm thinking about it. My concern would be, what if I had a metabolic disorder that was easily diagnosed with such a test but was difficult to determine otherwise.
Should probably send them an email!

[haidcat]

Relation of histamine to noraderanline and adrenaline.....  A little past the middle of the page: http://nobleboss.awardspace.com/mednotes/pharmanotes/chapter_set4/hist_antihist.htm

"After administration of Histamine, it binds with the H1 receptors present in the arterioles and precapillary sphincters and causes vasodilatation. So, there is ↓PR and ↓BP. After sometimes the BP comes to normal as Histamine is metabolized and also diluted by the body fluid. There is a secondary rise in BP caused by adrenaline and noradrenaline which are secreted as a result of stimulation of the nicotinic receptors in the adrenal medulla by Histamine.
If we administer antihistamine, it will block the H1 receptors and there will be no fall of BP but as Histamine will still act on the nicotinic receptors of the adrenal medulla, there will be rise. The rise can be prevented by administration of α-blockers which proves that the rise was due to adrenaline or noradrenaline."

The above would explain why antihistamines dont work with this adrenal surge +allergy issue. It also explains why beta blockers might not work very effectively, but substantial dosages of alpha blockers might. I remember someone mentioning either on this forum or "the other" one, that afluzosin(flomax i think its called), an alpha blocker meant for prostate problems, really helped them out with POIS.
 

It seems the nicotinic receptors in the adrenal glands might be a key issue here.... Look at Vincent M's post in the "other forum":
Took one pill of diphenhydramine (generic Benadryl) last night about 15min before an "o" and today I felt great. I think I feel the best I have since I got POIS. I may still have some brain fog and I can tell my anxiety is still a bit high, but physically I'd say I'm 90% free of POIS. Mentally I'd say at least 50% free of POIS. I can't tell if benadryl works better than Claritin or not just yet, but it seems it does. Also it's possible that I feel good due to a cumulative effect of the other meds I've been taking. I plan on testing benadryl again next weekend. I don't have as much time to experiment now that I'm working unfortunately

Why does benadryl work before O for him, but claritiin does not?? BEcause benadryl is an anticholingeric, meaning it helps block activation of nicotinic receptors, while claritin really just has antihistamine properties, having no effect on the adrenal glands, like bendaryl does.

If the Adrenal surge theory is correct, and thats a big IF, then it seems there are three ways to prevent alot of the bad POIS symptoms: 1. prevent the conversion of noradrenaline to adrenaline, which can be done with such things as niacin. 2. prevent the release of adrenaline from the adrenal glands, which can be done by blocking the activiation of the nicotinic receptors on the adrenals. and 3. block the activtiation of adrenaline receptors throughout the body with beta blockers(although this seems to be the least effective since its better to prevent the surge rather than try to contain it after the fact).

I want to add I put the above solutions in order of effectiveness. Theoritically it would seem best to prevent the conversion in the first place, which niacin does... Second best to prevetn adrealine release which antinicotinics/anticholinergics should do... and lastly try to stop the adrenaline from attaching to receptors all over your body, which seems difficult to do, plus beta blockers have their own side effects. It seems the solution is between the first and second steps, taking something before O to stop noradrenaline conversion or stop release of adrenaline.


I want to add two more things and this is very important: 1. Testosterone needs to be added to the list of above solutions, and it works by making you pee out noradrenaline, essentially lowering the amounts of adrenaline precursor in your body AND 2. If none of these above solutions work for you I would say one of two things is going on: First, you dont have POIS and you have some other issue going on that just gets worse when you orgasm, it could be hypoglycemia it could be an anxiety disorder, etc. and Second: you could have a lingering allergy cascade even after the orgasm, and hence u still have high amounts of histamine goign to ur adrenals and causing chronic hyper adrenaline to mess u up

[Daveman]

Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here

It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names! 

It seems my initials fit
Something I'm also wondering about is whether phenotype DNA testing such as that done on 23andme would reveal anything. I haven't had it done but I'm thinking about it. My concern would be, what if I had a metabolic disorder that was easily diagnosed with such a test but was difficult to determine otherwise.
Should probably send them an email!

The DNA testing would hold more for those who have had POIS since puberty probably. Some, although I don't know what percentage, get it later in life, and without "apparent" hereditary evidence.

If I had to guess from numbers I've seen in our surveys, I'd say it's close to 50/50 on whether it started with puberty or not.

[valtak]

Daveman - this theory is compelling. One question though. I take Indomethacin after day 0 and it
keeps symptoms at bay for 1-2 days. Unfortunately I can't taking indomethacin more
than 3 times a week - it has bad stomach side-effects. But wondering how
this works with your theory.

[kurtosis]

Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here

It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names! 

It seems my initials fit
Something I'm also wondering about is whether phenotype DNA testing such as that done on 23andme would reveal anything. I haven't had it done but I'm thinking about it. My concern would be, what if I had a metabolic disorder that was easily diagnosed with such a test but was difficult to determine otherwise.
Should probably send them an email!

The DNA testing would hold more for those who have had POIS since puberty probably. Some, although I don't know what percentage, get it later in life, and without "apparent" hereditary evidence.

If I had to guess from numbers I've seen in our surveys, I'd say it's close to 50/50 on whether it started with puberty or not.

Not entirely. There are illnesses such as Hartnup diseases which are hereditary but the onset can be as late as early adulthood and "nearly always" follows a period of poor nutrition according to wikipedia and several other websites that detail the disease. The reason I mention Hartnup is to illustrate a point and because it's creates cognitive symptoms through a protein metabolism problem which is treated using niacin.
There are many other examples but it seems that puberty and sexual maturation can cause hereditary illnesses to surface or an existing condition can become obvious following another illness due to nutrient deficiencies. So we can't discount the possibility that there is a genetic marker for POIS or that POIS is a variant of another illness where some other genetic or environmental factor exacerbating the problem after an O.

[Daveman]

Daveman - this theory is compelling. One question though. I take Indomethacin after day 0 and it
keeps symptoms at bay for 1-2 days. Unfortunately I can't taking indomethacin more
than 3 times a week - it has bad stomach side-effects. But wondering how
this works with your theory.

What symptoms do you find that it helps with most? I'm not familiar with Indomethacin, so I would have to look it up, but
perhaps others may have better understanding.

To me it sounds like more of a symptom "number" as opposed to a symptom "preventer".... but again... don't know Indomethacin.

This present theory for which there are those who understand it better than I, works more on disarming the damaging internal reactions or preventing conditions that cause the symptoms.

[valtak]

you are probably right about Indomethacin being a Symptom reducer - it's classified as a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug - from wikipedia:
"non-selective inhibitor of cyclooxygenase (COX) 1 and 2. - enzymes that participate in prostaglandin synthesis from arachidonic acid. Prostaglandins are
hormone-like molecules .."
I've found Indomethacin useful for cognitive disfunction / headache/ dizziness and chronic fatigue after POIS.
What is interesting is that Indomethacin is prescribed for a class of migraine headaches -
there are some migraines that respond favorably to Indomethacin and some that do not.
So POIS seems to have something in common with those migraines that respond favorably
to indomethacin.

[Hoping]

very interesting haidcat!!

[Egordon]

Indomethacin is actually quite effective for reducing symptoms. It was the first prescription that i was prescribed for POIS and the diagnosis -- although off base -- has continued to shape my notion of the disorder. Indomethacin is used to treat post-coital headaches, a subset of cluster headaches. Individuals with POIS seem to be diagnosed as having cluster headaches relatively often because the inflammation/irritation (and partial closure) that afflicts our left eye is a symptom of the disease. Although we lack many of the other symptoms of cluster headaches, I suspect the mechanism by which they work is instructive:

When a cluster headache is triggered, certain blood vessels within the brain become inflamed. The expansion of these blood vessels causes them to press on certain nerves, causing tremendous pain for the individual afflicted AND causing partial closure of the left eye (presumably by pressing upon related nerves).

It's not clear how exactly POIS works but the success that i've had from anti-inflammatories points to inflammation in cerebral veins (and potentially, given the pressure we experience behind our noses and in our foreheads, other veins). I've always suspected that our brainfog was a result of either: 1) this inflammation obstructing the delivery of sufficient oxygen to the brain or changing the flow of oxygen within the brain; or 2) this inflammation pushing against parts of the brain that are necessary for cognition.

In any case, i've always thought that the migrane/vascular model was one demanding greater scrutiny. I've been trying to get a referral to a specialist that can analyze things like cerebral bloodflow but attempts have been unsuccessful thus far.

[Going less Crazy]

This theory may explain why after I take benadryl before orgasm, my terrible inflammation "auto-immune" brain symptoms are gone, but I feel very nervous and anxious for about half a day after orgasm.  If our bodies release histamine, our bodies also release loads of adrenaline to counteract the affects of histamine.  Since benadryl only affects histamine receptors, and not the overall amount of histamine that is being released, adrenaline is still being pumped into my system and yet that is why I feel the affects of too much adrenaline.  It makes perfect sense.

I found that taking calcium magnesium helps for a few hours from this high adrenaline affect, but some have suggested niacin from preventing noradrenalines conversion into adrenaline?  I guess I will try that.  Next "O" I will do a niacin flush then take a benadryl, it seems like it would clear all of my symptoms.

p.s.  I am taking 25 mg benadryl pre-orgasm.  I find taking 50mg keeps me tired throughout the next day while 25mg does not.  I weigh about 155 pounds.

[Prancer]

This theory may explain why after I take benadryl before orgasm, my terrible inflammation "auto-immune" brain symptoms are gone, but I feel very nervous and anxious for about half a day after orgasm.  If our bodies release histamine, our bodies also release loads of adrenaline to counteract the affects of histamine.  Since benadryl only affects histamine receptors, and not the overall amount of histamine that is being released, adrenaline is still being pumped into my system and yet that is why I feel the affects of too much adrenaline.  It makes perfect sense.

I found that taking calcium magnesium helps for a few hours from this high adrenaline affect, but some have suggested niacin from preventing noradrenalines conversion into adrenaline?  I guess I will try that.  Next "O" I will do a niacin flush then take a benadryl, it seems like it would clear all of my symptoms.

p.s.  I am taking 25 mg benadryl pre-orgasm.  I find taking 50mg keeps me tired throughout the next day while 25mg does not.  I weigh about 155 pounds.

Thank you for this info GLC. I tried 50mg diphenhydramine and amazingly I felt much better after. This seems to work way better for me than niacin does. I take the diphenhydramine anyway almost every night to help me sleep. I don't want to try this during the day because it makes me very sleepies too, especially at 50mg.

[Going less Crazy]

Haha i had to think for a second, not used to being called GLC  .  Yes I only take the diphenhydramine at night in particular because of its drowsy effects.  50mg would put me out for a day, but I guess over time once you get used to the medication it will probably take more for the same effects.  It's possible that maybe 50 mg will get rid of the "nervous energy" and adrenaline coursing through my system after O, but still i'd rather not be asleep for a whole day.  Next experiment is 25 mg benadryl after a nice niacin flush.

EDIT:  I think 50 mg benadryl is better for POIS than 25.  Just O's after a niacin flush and taking one 25 mg benadryl, felt better after adding another benadryl, more relaxed and tired.  50 mg may be the key for me.  It seems to get rid of this "nervous" energy.

[Habibou]

This theory has lot of sens for me , but my adrenalin results are actually really low... !  
I will post again my neurotransmitters results :

  January 2011

Blood :
-adrenaline           <0.50 nmol/l         < 1.00
-noradrenaline        8.53 nmol/l       < 4.00                              1443 ng/l      < 675
-dopamine            <0.50 nmol/l         <1.00


Unrina during 24h :

-adrenaline       0.02 umol/l           < 0.10
-noradrenaline   0.42 umol/l          < 0.50
-dopamine        1.34 umol/l           < 3.00

All the blood tests were done 2 hours after an O.
The red standards are the unusual ones !

January 2012 :
ONLY Urina test, morning 10 hours after an O:

DOPA                       91.50 ug/g  (160 - 240)
34DOPAC                       0.40 mg/g    (0.70 - 4.00)
HVA                          1.90 mg/g    (2.43 - 5.20)
NORADRENALIN          10.30 ug/g   (15.70 - 34.30)
MHPG                          1.50 mg/g  (1.38 - 4.15)
VMA                            1.60 mg/g  (2.10 - 3.85)
ADRENALIN                  0.98  ug/g  (1.27 - 6.10)
SEROTONIN                62.40  ug/l   (61.50 - 116.80)
5HIAA                        2.30    mg/g (2.03 - 4.26)
HVA5HIAA                  0.83            (1.25 - 2.56)

[sameer7777]

So what you gonna do after this results
Especially about andraline

[LAPOISSE]

Very interesting topic ; I don't undersand why we dropped it ; I think we cant' based anything on the habibou's result because :

-it could be a surge of an other neurotransmitors that make the mess(depletion of dopamine or dopac) for exemple dopamine
-Based on my neurologue opinion, there is no correlation between urine or hair NT concentration and the neuronal activity of this NT ; The mecanism is infinitly more complex

The problem is we don't have a clue about all that's work ; (My neuro who is considered as one of the best in France told me that)

The best idea is probably to work empiricly like traditional medecine. There is things to do to try influence the concentration of usueful NT. My inch is we need to focus in dopamine.

[sameer7777]

Guys why this thread is close it was going some where !!!!

[caffeinetruth]

This theory already has some backing here:https://sites.google.com/site/poiswebsite/test-page/orgasm-induced-catecholamine-imbalance-via-pituitary-dysfunction
Ive got a theory here, that might explain alot of symptoms of POIS, and why niacin/continual vitamin b complex supplmentation is working for alot of us. To make it short, POIS could be a debilitating reaction to a massive adrenaline surge during orgasm. This reaction can last for DAYS, yes days."

It should be noted that caffeine may play a huge role in this. Caffeine extends the fight-or-flight response in the body by blocking adenosine. Which helps return the body to homeostasis (normalcy) after fight-or-flight. Caffeine is hindering this return to rest. Many people have overcome chronic fatigue by forcing themselves to have mandatory rest days. This "rest response" would not be so mandatory if the body was not being sabotaged by a foreign agent. In this case Trimethylxanthine (caffeine).

You said it yourself, after every major adrenaline surge comes these problems. Even from high energy exercise. Its like....what should be a cigarette lighter size flame, is more like a flamethrower sized flame. Dr Abram Hoffer used high doses of Niacin to treat schizophrenics in the 50's. He believed a mutation in a schizophrenics body turns adrenaline into adenochrome, a hallucinogenic substance. He claims him and his medical assistant shot up with adrenochrome like how junkies shoot up and he could simulate the symptoms of schizophrenia in himself within 45 minutes. But the point is...he claimed Niacin acts like a buffer that can mop up access adrenaline. By removing the adrenaline, hence, he could treat the schizo's. I read on another website that Niacin helps metabolize the adrenaline through a certain enzyme. I find Niacin helps me sleep better than any other vitamin or herb (and even some prescription sleeping pills)

But, you guys are gonna run around in circles ad nauseum until you learn to take the bull completely out of the china shop. Aka caffeine in the body. Thats means ZERO caffeine. Not one chocolate treat...not one caffeinated soda or coffee....READ THE LABELS!

If anyone needs help getting off caffeine and if you have any questions just let me know.

[Nas]

I tried Non-Flush Niacin and it didn't do anything. Does it has to flush to work ?

[demografx]

...But, you guys are gonna run around in circles ad nauseum until you learn to take the bull completely out of the china shop. Aka caffeine in the body. Thats means ZERO caffeine. Not one chocolate treat...not one caffeinated soda or coffee....READ THE LABELS!

If anyone needs help getting off caffeine and if you have any questions just let me know.

[Quantum]

I tried Non-Flush Niacin and it didn't do anything. Does it has to flush to work ?

Hi Nas,

Many niacin users say they need to have the flush in order to have effectiveness, and others says they don't need it and had success with non-flush niacin.

I am not using niacin, so Daveman or another niacin user could give you more information on this topic.