Author Topic: Free Flow Discussion about POIS  (Read 661472 times)

Daveman

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Free Flow Discussion about POIS
« on: June 22, 2012, 01:57:28 PM »
Hi all,

This may seem like a familiar place, created to cater to the free flow of thought that many are used to.

And what the hay, if anything really good springs forth we can branch it off and create a special thread to deal with that.

BTW everybody, if you use this link ( http://poiscenter.com/forums/?action=.xml;type=atom ) and paste it into your regular EMail client "Outlook or whatever", you will automatically be sent all the latest posts, so it is easy to stay on top of new information. It is called an RSS feed.



« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 02:48:34 PM by Quantum »
WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

Daveman

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Re: Admin Corner
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2012, 02:39:15 PM »
The link to the latest in this thread is:

http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=426.0.new
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 12:57:19 PM by demografx »
WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

Stef

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Re: Admin Corner
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2012, 10:08:00 PM »
This is wonderful, Daveman!!!!!

You are a miracle-worker.  :-)

Stef

 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 12:57:44 PM by demografx »

demografx

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Re: Admin Corner
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2012, 11:25:36 PM »
Ditto, Stef!!

T H A N K   Y O U   D A V E M A N !!!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 12:58:18 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2012, 11:33:38 PM »
This place looks and feels so familiar, I want to post...


« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 12:01:12 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2012, 12:28:03 AM »

I increase my initial pledge from 100 to 400 $, so that I would have given 500 $ totally :) It is the money I will get with my internship. Instead of putting it in a stupid video game and so on, the best investment for the future is to give to NORD !


THANK YOU, HABIBOU!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 12:31:46 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2012, 12:30:26 AM »

I converted another $500 of my pledge to the donated column.


Thank you, B_Daniel for doing that amidst all that medical frustration!

Best,
Demo
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 12:42:56 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 03:40:48 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 03:39:24 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2012, 12:46:17 AM »

I just gave $100.00 for the POIS fund and I will still be donating this amount for each of the next 12 months. I expect that I could give more in the next months, but this amount I guarantee.

I´m giving for POIS because this disease screw up my life and I know that, even that we have chance to descover a cure for our own, our chances will be a lot more with especialist researchs and methods.

I know that a lot of people here don´t have a lot of money but the situation isn't easy for no one. For me, in particular, is more expensive because brasilian coin has a half the value of dolar. Let´s go people, let´s donate.






THANK YOU, FIDALGO!!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Daveman

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2012, 08:11:29 AM »
This is wonderful, Daveman!!!!!

You are a miracle-worker.  :-)

Stef

 

Thanks but as you can see Demo is and always has been the chief miracle worker!!
WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

demografx

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2012, 12:55:29 PM »
Awww!!! ;D
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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  • All of us working together to defeat POIS!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 02:16:24 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2012, 08:08:32 PM »
Hi everybody,

Don't let the advertising dissuade you from posting your free-flowing thoughts.

The discussions on this thread can go anywhere and everywhere.

As *you* wish.

Best,
Demo
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 03:51:54 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

kurtosis

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2012, 12:28:51 PM »
Just reposting this here as it seems we've moved to a new home :)
Quote
Quote from: daveman on 21/06/2012 19:55:04
The following post
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=423.msg4803#msg4803
is about something I?ve noticed before, that a full and complete ?O? seems to produce less symptoms than a partial or restricted one. In part it could be to do with retro-ejaculation (during a bad ?O?), which for me causes much worse POIS, or it could be to do with the PGD2 and PGE2 cycles. Not being to up on the biology, could somebody check out the referenced post and comment.

It seems that niacin for instance feeds the creation cycle of these prostaglandins, and if we orgasm too early the bad PGs are bolstered, whereas if we wait, the good ones are bolstered. Do I have this right?
In the post above,  the dreamy state he mentions is associated with what I have felt when I ?O? early with too much niacin. However the benefit of the niacin is not as strong when that happens.

However like him, if my ?O?s? are complete (in a  non-niacin scenario) the dreamy state is more prevalent yet my symptoms are less.

Can anyone decipher this?

Good versus bad seems to a complicated determination to make in relation to prostaglandins. I found an interesting article at http://www.pensgard.com/nutrition/4_Prostaglandins.htm
I don't have access to the original article but I did find some references on pubmed to support their description.

We know niacin releases pgd2 into the skin to produce flushing. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1373750
Some of our symptoms like gastrointestinal issues could be explained by an overproduction of PGE1. However cognitive impairments from a prostaglandin imbalance may  come from a deficiency of PGE1 (perhaps causing schizophrenia) or an increase in TXA2 causing depression.

There have been a few articles published which hypothesise that schizophrenia could be related to prostaglandin synthesis. Some of which hypothesise that some "successful" anti-schizophrenic drugs work by increasing prolactin levels and encouraging prostaglandin synthesis. However, medical science knows more about the different flavours of prostaglandin now so it's not merely a case of raising levels of all prostaglandins.

The schizophrenia and prostaglandin connection doesn't seem to have gone away. Here are some articles from pubmed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/67391
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3520252
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20446881
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21334179

Mice too http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19416671
The article about PGE2 receptors in mice is very interesting as it appears medical researchers are figuring out that low levels of PGE2 may be implicated in diseases like ALS and alzheimers.

Niacin stimulates the synthesis of... You guessed it.. PGE2.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22442634

So why would this be related to POIS? Simply because during an O we produce prolactin. Too much or too little would be a problem and would likely indicate a problem with balancing PGE2 levels.
 
A diet with too much trans fatty acids will inhibit prostaglandin production while a diet with enough b vitamins, protein, zinc, vitamin E and essential fatty acids (from fish oil for most people) could regulate production. What the right amount is and whether some unknown disease could affect the levels of synthesis is a mystery to me. It seems that any b vitamin deficiency, nutrient absorption problem or b vitamin deficiency could produce symptoms of cognitive impairment. 

Another problem may be a mutant delta-6-desaturase gene as hypothesised in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3520252 or
some variant of a d-6-d malfunction.
(I have no idea whether any conclusive research has been done on the mutant d6d hypothesis but I do know that some research exists showing that arachidonic acid given to early stage alzheimer patients can lead to some improvement on cognitive tests).

If this was the case then there wouldn't be enough omega 6 fatty acids in the diet for prostaglandin synthesis. This seems unlikely given our diets are generally omega-6 rich but I've read some anecdotal reports of people who believe they're suffering from pyroluria (not getting into a discussion about whether this exists) that claim substantial improvements in concentration, anxiety levels and sleeping patterns when they supplement with zinc, b6 and arachidonic acid.

There could be an insufficient amount of ALA in the diet to produce Arachidonic acid or an inability to synthesise AA from ALA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid

It's worth noting (after reading http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=423.msg4803#msg4803) that liver was used to treat pernicious anaemia in the days before b12 injections and is also high in arachidonic acid.

pep

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2012, 01:19:48 PM »
Demo,

maybe yo can linked (hipervínculo) the photos to NORD

for contact with me: apoisblog@gmail.com

Barcelona (SPAIN)

24 years old (1988). POIS since I was 21.

poisenglish.blogspot.com.es
poisspanish.blogspot.com.es

eur79m

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 02:04:48 PM »
Re-post from the 'old place'  ;)
I hope you dont mind...


I am fed up with the medical system!

I have a valid theory what causes my particular symptoms and have proposed reasonable diagnostic procedures to test the validity of my theory.

Still, each and every doc at my local university hospital is trying to get rid of me by suggesting psychological remedies to obviously physical causes. Everything I present, facts, cause - effect relationships, correlations, references to everything you have collected in this forum so far, is generously waved away and ignored. Everybody I have met so far is too afraid to try anything new that might cause negative side effects or can be seen as a major intervention, even if I declare to bear any related costs and waving any doc/hospital liabilities. In the medical system my right to self-determination is taken away and I declared incompetent at the whim of the gods in white...

Lets start at the beginning... as I described in previous posts, my case is slightly different from the majority of the cases I read about so far, in that my POIS symptoms started together with pain in my right testicle, following what I believe was a  physical trauma of my right testicle I sustained during a spinning class (indoor cycling, balls squeezed on a hard saddle). I did have surgery (based on a wrong diagnosis) and two day relief after the surgery... until my first post-surgery ejaculation (see previous posts). Since then I am in constant POIS with right testicle pain, severity of both depending on sexual activity (always on a scale between 'bad' and 'worse').

I learned about POIS but did not know what to do about it, educated myself, and suffered throughout the last year... Only at the beginning of 2012 did I have the courage to make an appointment at my local university hospital. I specifically asked to talk to an immunologist but had to see a hospital GP first. I presented all the research you collected (waldinger everything else I could find), had all the usual tests done, including a p r i c k test with my own semen and a spermiogram. Basically all without any real results (as expected), Vitamin D deficiency, no allergy to my semen, spermiogram not great but something still seems to be alive.

My theory:
I have suffered a physical trauma to my right testicle through which immune cells gained access to the testicular microenvironment. Thus, the immune privilege might be broken and immune responses no longer suppressed. I came up with the suggestion to test this by pharmacological suppressing my immune system, just as it is for example done with transplant patients to prevent foreign tissue from being rejected. I dug up this seemingly unrelated info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_ophthalmia) about a rare eye disease, the eye also being an immune privileged site. Interestingly the preferred treatment is immunosuppressive therapy... Digging around a bit in medical literature I downloaded some bits and pieces from Google books, which you can find at the following location: http://min.us/myITMUQnQ
Most of the pages will not be relevant to you but have a look at diseases_1.jpg. The table is an excerpt from a 1993 paper of Rose/Bona, modifying something called "Witebsky's postulates". I did not get access to the 1993 paper (30USD) but the Witebsky criteria have to be met for a diseases to be classified as an autoimmune disease. I am not sure about the generally accepted status of POIS, is it actually classified as an autoimmune disease?! If so, on what basis? The evidence that has to be met according to the table is rather difficult to gather and it might not happen during our lifetime... BUT Level 3.6: RESPONSIVENESS TO IMMUNOSUPPRESSION !!! There it is again, and to me it is perfectly logical and just makes sense. I believe my symptoms to be autoimmune related, if this is indeed the case, symptoms should be diminished / vanish if the immune system is somehow suppressed.

Still I was not allowed an appointment with an immunologist before seeing a specialist for psychosomatic medicine / sexual therapy. The Prof completely ignored any facts I presented, alluded to my anxiety (very surprising after two years of continued POIS suffering) and proposed the usual psych therapy including SSRI's etc. I left after the second session. Being finally granted an appointment with the immunologist after five months, he also was very reluctant to pursue the immunosuppression route. I had to listen to numerous arguments why not to do it, how dangerous it is, sideffects etc (not that millions of transplant patients worldwide are living under immunosuppression, immunosuppression being indicated for several autoimmune diseases), that we would not gain anything from this exercise since I cant live my whole life with my immune system being knocked out (Knowledge gained?! Understanding of the POIS mechanism?), and the best one, that he could give me only 1/100th of the dose that would be indicated for eg the special eye case since I dont have anything SERIOUS!!!  :o In order to get rid of me, to postpone decisions, and not to take any risks on his side, he sent me to urology again to take a biopsy of my right testicle to look for the infiltration of any inflammatory cells, which would support my theory. Four weeks later I had the appointment, the evening before I had some ejaculations to be sure to be in worst POIS state when the procedure was performed. The doc (he did not see me before) arrived 15min late, that was the time it took him to read up on my file. You can be sure that he never heard of POIS before, did not read a single paper on the topic and my file was the first time he was confronted with any of this... still the first thing he could tell me for sure when he entered was that POIS does not exist. Usual procedure of ignoring my arguments, using my POIS state against me by telling me what a clear case for a psychologist I am ("dont worry, in the US everybody has a shrink!") and that I should just IGNORE my symptoms! He refused to do the biopsy (probably for the better, its quite an invasive procedure that I rather go without) and sent me home with a prescription for Voltaren :o ... what a joke, never met anybody as prejudiced and arrogant as this guy.

So here I am... tomorrow I have a call with the immunologist again, I will try to make an appointment to start a diagnostic immunosuppression but the answer I will get is pretty clear, he will refuse to do it...

My problem is I cant go on living like this, I am almost unable to work, the way I feel EVERY morning you would normally not even get out of bed and just call in sick... I would like confirmation or rejection of my autoimmune theory based on facts so I can make an informed decision on how to continue... but most likely I will even be denied my diagnostic proposal. Most likely I will be denied any further help in this developed medical system and might be forced to seek help outside... like animus did.

Any suggestions, feedback, options?

Just a quick follow-up, forgot to mention that there actually is something called 'autoimmune orchitis' which is an autoimmune inflammation of a testicle:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21842235
http://autoimmune.pathology.jhmi.edu/diseases.cfm?systemID=3&DiseaseID=20
http://www.preservearticles.com/2012032028162/what-is-autoimmune-orchitis.html

Not directly relevant to you but I believe that this is the cause of / related to my POIS...
Interestingly one of the articles mentions 'testicular atrophy', a shrinking of the testicle. The urologist told me that mine are 'smaller than usual' but that doesnt mean anything... certainly not in connection with my autoimmune hypothesis *sarcasm* ... Autoimmune orchitis was never mentioned during the talk with the urologist, however he seemed to have a lot of knowledge in the psychological field *some more sarcasm* ...

Starsky

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 02:40:06 PM »
Just reposting this here as it seems we've moved to a new home :)
Quote
Quote from: daveman on 21/06/2012 19:55:04
The following post
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=423.msg4803#msg4803
is about something I?ve noticed before, that a full and complete ?O? seems to produce less symptoms than a partial or restricted one. In part it could be to do with retro-ejaculation (during a bad ?O?), which for me causes much worse POIS, or it could be to do with the PGD2 and PGE2 cycles. Not being to up on the biology, could somebody check out the referenced post and comment.

It seems that niacin for instance feeds the creation cycle of these prostaglandins, and if we orgasm too early the bad PGs are bolstered, whereas if we wait, the good ones are bolstered. Do I have this right?
In the post above,  the dreamy state he mentions is associated with what I have felt when I ?O? early with too much niacin. However the benefit of the niacin is not as strong when that happens.

However like him, if my ?O?s? are complete (in a  non-niacin scenario) the dreamy state is more prevalent yet my symptoms are less.

Can anyone decipher this?

Good versus bad seems to a complicated determination to make in relation to prostaglandins. I found an interesting article at http://www.pensgard.com/nutrition/4_Prostaglandins.htm
I don't have access to the original article but I did find some references on pubmed to support their description.

We know niacin releases pgd2 into the skin to produce flushing. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1373750
Some of our symptoms like gastrointestinal issues could be explained by an overproduction of PGE1. However cognitive impairments from a prostaglandin imbalance may  come from a deficiency of PGE1 (perhaps causing schizophrenia) or an increase in TXA2 causing depression.

There have been a few articles published which hypothesise that schizophrenia could be related to prostaglandin synthesis. Some of which hypothesise that some "successful" anti-schizophrenic drugs work by increasing prolactin levels and encouraging prostaglandin synthesis. However, medical science knows more about the different flavours of prostaglandin now so it's not merely a case of raising levels of all prostaglandins.

The schizophrenia and prostaglandin connection doesn't seem to have gone away. Here are some articles from pubmed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/67391
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3520252
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20446881
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21334179

Mice too http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19416671
The article about PGE2 receptors in mice is very interesting as it appears medical researchers are figuring out that low levels of PGE2 may be implicated in diseases like ALS and alzheimers.

Niacin stimulates the synthesis of... You guessed it.. PGE2.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22442634

So why would this be related to POIS? Simply because during an O we produce prolactin. Too much or too little would be a problem and would likely indicate a problem with balancing PGE2 levels.
 
A diet with too much trans fatty acids will inhibit prostaglandin production while a diet with enough b vitamins, protein, zinc, vitamin E and essential fatty acids (from fish oil for most people) could regulate production. What the right amount is and whether some unknown disease could affect the levels of synthesis is a mystery to me. It seems that any b vitamin deficiency, nutrient absorption problem or b vitamin deficiency could produce symptoms of cognitive impairment. 

Another problem may be a mutant delta-6-desaturase gene as hypothesised in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3520252 or
some variant of a d-6-d malfunction.
(I have no idea whether any conclusive research has been done on the mutant d6d hypothesis but I do know that some research exists showing that arachidonic acid given to early stage alzheimer patients can lead to some improvement on cognitive tests).

If this was the case then there wouldn't be enough omega 6 fatty acids in the diet for prostaglandin synthesis. This seems unlikely given our diets are generally omega-6 rich but I've read some anecdotal reports of people who believe they're suffering from pyroluria (not getting into a discussion about whether this exists) that claim substantial improvements in concentration, anxiety levels and sleeping patterns when they supplement with zinc, b6 and arachidonic acid.

There could be an insufficient amount of ALA in the diet to produce Arachidonic acid or an inability to synthesise AA from ALA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid

It's worth noting (after reading http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=423.msg4803#msg4803) that liver was used to treat pernicious anaemia in the days before b12 injections and is also high in arachidonic acid.

Since omega3 and astaxanthin a potent PGE2 inhibitor help for POIS i think we are overproducing PGE2.

kurtosis

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2012, 04:09:32 PM »
That should have been niacin increases synthesis of PGD2 and PGE2 but flushes them into the skin. I think this reaction an hour or so before an O reduces the prolactin release during an O.

Starsky

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Re: This may seem like a familar place.
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 04:57:08 PM »
I did tested prolactin and it is under the normal range.