Free Flow Discussion about POIS

[FloppyBanana]

Vagus Nerve Stimulator
http://www.cerbomed.com/transcutaneous-Vagus-Nerve-Stimulation-88.html

Anyone looking into transcutaneous Vagus Nerve Stimulation devices (tVNS) such as Nemos by Cerbomed should consider that this devices is simply an expensive TENS unit.  The 4000 dollar device is based off of studies that used a standard TENS unit($150 on Amazon) to stimulate the auricular branch of the vagus nerve distributed to the skin of the ear(Clancy et al., 2014).  This is simply done by placing the TENS electrode on the tragus of the ear.  The electrical signal given to participants was (200 microseconds @ 30 Hz).  Besides that fact that Nemos is expensive, it is also only approved in 3 European countries and is not available in the United States.  I think it is unlikely that our POIS study will use Nemos, most likely they will just be using a modified TENS unit that fits and stays on the tragus.

Although Cerbomed states that Nemos is safe(this is a non-invasive device), invasive surgically implantable vagus nerve stimulation devices have been associated with much higher rates of cardiac death.  Stimulating the vagus nerve causes a change in heart rate variability, this not recommended without supervision by a medical professional.

Anybody interested in learning more about TENS units to stimulate the Vagus nerve should read these articles:

1) University of Leeds. "'Tickling' your ear could be good for your heart." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 19 August 2014. <www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140819200211.htm>.

ANDS ALSO the original study below by Clancy et al. 2014

2) Jennifer A. Clancy, David A. Mary, Klaus K. Witte, John P. Greenwood, Susan A. Deuchars, Jim Deuchars. Non-invasive Vagus Nerve Stimulation in Healthy Humans Reduces Sympathetic Nerve Activity. Brain Stimulation, 2014; DOI: 10.1016/j.brs.2014.07.031
http://www.brainstimjrnl.com/article/S1935-861X%2814%2900260-5/abstract

Article by Dr. Lauracostis

There is a reason that Dr, Komisaruk has been approved by the IRB. and that it took so long. These approvals aren't taken lightly, and they have, more than anything, our safety in mind.

Approved TENS devices are approved for specific applications. I imagine it could be very dangerous to use a device that is used for pain mitigation in joints and muscles for a delicate procedure like vagus nerve stimulation. Most TENS devices have "programs" and protocols, and specific electrode configurations. Some applications are "simple", others are very complex.

What make the TENS unit useful for any application, is the combination of factors that make it up. Most of these are controlled by firmware (internal software), but ultimatley come from medical expertise, research and knowledge.

I really don't care which unit Dr. Komisarul will use. If he uses the cheapest he can find, I don't have a problem, it's his knowledge in the choice and application, that I trust.

He has been doing this work and using devices like this for longer than any of us here. He is doing it in combination with careful study of the supposed patient (subject) and careful follow-through, which even includes an fMRI. Most cheap units don't come with an fMRI.

It's Dr. Komisuruk's protocol and follow-through that interest me.

Sorry Daveman, my post was not an attack on Dr. Komisuruk's protocol for the study.  The Nemos is what I would use if I was doing the study and could get them.  I just posted this because the Nemos is only available in 3 countries, and if using the Nemos in Dr. Komisuruk's study turns out to be beneficial to POIS, you won't be able to get one.  If in the future, Nemos is approved for use in the U.S., you will have to pay cash for it unless you have refractory seizures.  Daveman, you are correct that it is not a good idea to use the back or shoulder massage setting on a TENS device to stick on your ear.  You have to research the device to make sure it has a manual settings besides automatic programs.  Furthermore, the standard 2X2 inch electrode pads used for TENS units won't be very useful.  I was simply trying to find an alternative to Nemos if this study proves vagal stimulation successful in the study.

I think its worth mentioning that the expensive price of Nemos is I believe related to the fact they have a registered patent on the ear piece which stimulates specific points on the concha of the ear (as opposed to the tragus area mentioned about).

[demografx]

Thanks for the clarification, FB!

[FloppyBanana]

And now for something completely different:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1056153-ice-man-on-a-mission-to-scientifically-prove-power-of-mind/

Outside of POIS I have long felt the benefits of having cold showers. Whether I can take it to the next level is another thing. I'm going to go for 100% cold shower tomorrow morning and try not to scare the people I live with... I'm just unsure how to set my time limit....5 mins I reckon to start with...
FB

[Colm]

Thanks for sharing this FB.

Curiously on this topic, and I never heard of this guy, but his message (if you watch the video in the article, is important), that is, the power we have to heal ourselves.

One small example from what he seems to be saying about helping our immune system....in my POIS history, one of the features, particularly ten years + ago was, I used to suffer so many colds, 15-20 colds a year.

However, since I started taking cold showers after a hot shower some years back, I have not had one cold in over 3 years. It is helpful, because having a bad cold when in POIS is demoralising, like pouring flames on a fire when in POIS, it is like having a seriously bad flu, and it just runs you down even further.

I am not sure I will take up burying myself in ice like this guy, but it shows again the power of the mind, how we seem to have our own internal pharmacy (if we can access it) and the probably the even greater power of the brain !

[FloppyBanana]

Thanks Colm,

So I had the cold shower this morning. It was great after I got over the thought of doing it. Had wash in warm water then cranked it up step by step to 90% cold water. That's pretty cold hear in London.

One thing I should mention here is that I recently shot my gun twice in one day (which is very rare for me). So I am actually on POIS day 5. I think because I have been talking progesterone I was able to do the cold shower thing. If I had pure POIS I think it would have been a lot more challenging.

Taking progesterone while having POIS can make you feel a bit lazy in the morning (but I find I wake up nice and early with it). I think this could be because progesterone lowers your blood pressure. Having a cold shower increases your blood pressure and certainly does wake you up.

So I had the cold shower for about 5 mins and my skin went all pink and I felt good. I started to feel hungry but did not eat. I heard that your immune system regulates if you don't eat when you feel hungry.

After the shower I did my hourly morning mediation and I found and really good sense of calm and invigorating energy around my body. I had chicken skin on my arms from having the cold shower (I was only wearing a t-shirt on top). I'm going to continue this treatment and see if I can increase my ability to have longer cold showers. In the winter early morning meditation on the garden is a good test a well.

Perhaps it would deb good idea to have cold shower immediately after O. I try that some time.

FB

[Colm]

Well done on the Cold shower FB.

For anyone thinking of this to boost the immune system, remember that it doesn't need to be a long Cold shower, and you can gradually ramp up the cold water temperature. You are correct in what you say about that.

When in POIS, I have found it very difficult to have a full cold shower, don't think I would recommend it straight after O. I used to try this to reverse my skin and Sinus flareup after an O many years ago, but it only made me feel much worse, demoralised in fact.

I would be interested to hear your experience FB, if you decide to try it.

[Stef]

Maybe you guys should start "The POIS ICE BUCKET CHALLENGE!"

:-) :-)

Stef

[FloppyBanana]

Thanks Guys,

Not sure about the ice bucket yet.

I had the cold shower yesterday and was fine in the morning but afternoon I could not get warm. With progesterone I often get cold in the afternoons (I always take progesterone before I go to bed otherwise in make me feel cold if I take during the day). Anyhow I had to get a hot water bottle and put it on my tummy to try and warm me up. I read actually that putting a hot water bottle on your tummy stimulates your vagus nerve. That's why woman use it when they have their periods. Anyhow it does ease this strange "progesterone coldness" I get. It's not nice to have this coldness, however I am pretty clearheaded and no POIS symptoms. It would be good to know what causes this coldness. I initially thought it was because progesterone temporarily lowers blood pressure but I think there must be more going on than that. I'm rambling now.

Anyhow, I got cold today at 3pm so had a hot shower and feel good for now. So to summarise; cold shower therapy equals suffering when in POIS sooner or later when talking progesterone. I will continue cold showers outside the POIS period though.

POIS is still a damn mystery! FB

[Colm]

Ingenious idea Stef - LOL

[Prancer]

Saw the following article other day about the BBC educating its reporters to recognize pseudoscience of all types. (Another reason to love the BBC!)

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-fake-science-20140707-column.html

Saw it as another reminder to not be too distracted, and to keep focusing on the research, which as Stef pointed out a few days ago: the POIS study has officially started! This is awesome news! In the past, we all went so long with so few answers, and now we're finally here. It will take some more time, but it will no doubt be worth the wait to get some real science to beat the POIS monster FOR GOOD!

[Stef]

Saw the following article other day about the BBC educating its reporters to recognize pseudoscience of all types. (Another reason to love the BBC!)

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-fake-science-20140707-column.html

Saw it as another reminder to not be too distracted, and to keep focusing on the research, which as Stef pointed out a few days ago: the POIS study has officially started! This is awesome news! In the past, we all went so long with so few answers, and now we're finally here. It will take some more time, but it will no doubt be worth the wait to get some real science to beat the POIS monster FOR GOOD!

Prancer -- this is a great reminder that there's lots of bogus information out there, and one must always check the source.

In the meantime, I just heard from Demo, who just heard this afternoon from Dr. K. The study is going wonderfully and as planned. The testing phase (of you men) will be starting VERY soon.

So keep the faith!

Stef 

[demografx]

In detecting medical fraudsters ( doctors and not-so-doctors) and fake/questionable medical practices since POIS 2007,  I found this source to be very, very helpful!

http://www.quackwatch.com

[demografx]

I just heard from Demo, who just heard this afternoon from Dr. K. The study is going wonderfully and as planned. The testing phase (of you men) will be starting VERY soon.

So keep the faith!

Stef

Thank you  Stef for reporting!!

[Myers6609]

Quote from: Stef on November 12, 2014, 08:57:17 PM

I just heard from Demo, who just heard this afternoon from Dr. K. The study is going wonderfully and as planned. The testing phase (of you men) will be starting VERY soon.

So keep the faith!

Stef

Quote from: demografx on November 12, 2014, 09:52:11 PM

Thank you  Stef for reporting!!





Fabulous!

[demografx]

Thanks , Myers!

[vetrofragile79]

Prancer -- this is a great reminder that there's lots of bogus information out there, and one must always check the source.

In the meantime, I just heard from Demo, who just heard this afternoon from Dr. K. The study is going wonderfully and as planned. The testing phase (of you men) will be starting VERY soon.

So keep the faith!

Stef

I joined the forum for so long , I live in Italy dr K how I can help from here? I tried to contact him via email but got no response, so show here my request : During the last 10 years I have performed numerous tests including an MRI , complete blood tests , and more.
It may be helpful to study dr K?
thanks

[FloppyBanana]

In detecting medical fraudsters ( doctors and not-so-doctors) and fake/questionable medical practices since I began with the POIS Forums in 2007,  I found this source to be very, very helpful!

http://www.quackwatch.com

I think this quack watch is a bit ultra western medicine. It debunks acupuncture virtually totally which seems extreme to me. Is't the vagas nerve stimulation that we POISers have hope in something that has been done in in ear acupuncture for centuries, yes! Another example would be Dr Dexter who is western trained medical doctor and he uses acupuncture. He is a migraine specialist and as we know he wrote a paper on POIS. Isn't he a doctor that is prepares to step outside of the standard framework prescribed by the western medical profession? yes, I believe. Why would Dr Dexter take the risk of prescribing progesterone when every other doctor I have spoken is scared stiff to do so. There is a absolutely no medical evidence that validates that progesterone is an effective remedy for POIS. But IT ABSOLUTELY DOES WORK FOR (FOR ME AT LEAST). I don't need to wait for the incredibly slow process of research to validate this.

There are people who want to exploit people financially by using various lies which of course we need to cognizant of.

FB

[demografx]

FB, excellent expose about Quackwatch!

Btw, Dr Dexter keeps trying to connect with me via via  "LinkedIn ", which org I don't care for.

FB, if you are in touch with him please tell him I prefer direct contact, .e.g., PM here at poiscenter.com

[demografx]

I joined the forum for so long , I live in Italy dr K how I can help from here? I tried to contact him via email but got no response, so show here my request : During the last 10 years I have performed numerous tests including an MRI , complete blood tests , and more.
It may be helpful to study dr K?
thanks

I just wrote to Dr K to ask clarification of your request. Thank you for your patience, vetro79!
Demo

[FloppyBanana]

FB, excellent expose about Quackwatch!

Btw, Dr Dexter keeps trying to connect with me via via  "LinkedIn ", which org I don't care for.

FB, if you are in touch with him please tell him I prefer direct contact, .e.g., PM here at poiscenter.com

Hi Demo, OK I have let Dr Dexter know that just now. Thanks FB