Author Topic: How to avoid placebo and nocebo effect?  (Read 724 times)

rollercoaster

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How to avoid placebo and nocebo effect?
« on: October 04, 2021, 04:06:15 PM »
I myself have experienced the strong effects of placebo in the past. I was 100 percent convinced I was cured of POIS after mega-dosing on vitamin D for 10 days.

Check out my old post detailing this - https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/iehwhe/update_pois_cured/

Alas, it turned out to be a placebo, as time passed by.

At the time, I was not aware I was experiencing placebo effect. In fact, I didn't believe in it for a long time. However, gradually I realized, that it has a powerful effect on your unconscious mind, and therefore, there is very little you can consciously do to counter it. As such, all of us are more or less susceptible to it (no matter how smart one thinks they are), unless we do a blinded trail on ourselves.

So, how to avoid placebo and nocebo effects while trying a new medication?

Doing a self blind trial is difficult if you're trying the drug treatment all alone.

Any suggestions are welcome.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 04:10:01 PM by rollercoaster »
POIS type 1.  Clusters 1, 3, 4, 7. Other symptoms -
1. Orthostatic Hypotension
2. Sunken eyes
3. PE,ED
4. Mild pain, irritation in groin
5. Redness, heating of ears
6. Pulsating, exploding, swelling and pressure in head & face, esp when bending down, chewing hard
7. Frequent urination and thirst

Spartak

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Re: How to avoid placebo and nocebo effect?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2021, 02:36:41 AM »
Well I noticed that many post placebo stuff anyway. Like Gatlic helped me 20% or so.. I think it?s impossible to avoid, especially because when in POIS we can not be 100% rational. For me if you are not cured, or have treatment that prevents POIS 100% you might just be in placebo mindset.
no sugar diet helps me a tiny bit, also makes my mind much calmer in general. Sugar is definitely something my body does not handle well. Also I noticed that other inflammations like a hangover are better since I quit sugar. I avoid sweet fruits as well.

demografx

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Re: How to avoid placebo and nocebo effect?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2021, 07:28:20 AM »
Interesting observation, Spartak!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Progecitor

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Re: How to avoid placebo and nocebo effect?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2021, 12:28:39 PM »
I myself have experienced the strong effects of placebo in the past. I was 100 percent convinced I was cured of POIS after mega-dosing on vitamin D for 10 days.

Check out my old post detailing this - https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/iehwhe/update_pois_cured/

Alas, it turned out to be a placebo, as time passed by.

At the time, I was not aware I was experiencing placebo effect. In fact, I didn't believe in it for a long time. However, gradually I realized, that it has a powerful effect on your unconscious mind, and therefore, there is very little you can consciously do to counter it. As such, all of us are more or less susceptible to it (no matter how smart one thinks they are), unless we do a blinded trail on ourselves.

So, how to avoid placebo and nocebo effects while trying a new medication?

Doing a self blind trial is difficult if you're trying the drug treatment all alone.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Don't be too hard on yourself! You are probably just another victim of developing drug resistance. I also had many supplements that worked best when I first took them, but later they became less effective. If you really feel unwell during POIS it can't be possible to deceive yourself into feeling completely fine otherwise POIS would be considered a simple Psychiatric disease which is in my opinion the greatest deception of all.

berlin1984

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Re: How to avoid placebo and nocebo effect?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 02:40:22 PM »
I agree the placebo effect needs to be considered.

However my 5 cent: It's quite common for certain nootropics or supplements to be cycled. So they might work for you initially but then they don't anymore (not saying this was the case for your case with vitamin D). I don't have an example right now that is POIS related..
https://www.google.com/search?q=cycle+nootropics+-bike

warrioronthetrot

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Re: How to avoid placebo and nocebo effect?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2021, 03:40:58 AM »
The best way I know to tackle placebo, is to make sure your life involves some kind of repeated routine deep concentrated work or activity. Get into a good schedule of doing something every day (or at least attempt to). E.g. work full time or play guitar 2 hrs a day, 5 days a week. Then you can test medication / supplements, and compare the weeks of concentrated work (or ability to concentrate / go deep in what you are doing / thrive at work) to other weeks of concentrated work. This is what helps me not placebo. Whereas if I take some kind of supplement, but I am kind of lounging around, getting bored, unconcentrated, not really working hard or putting my mind towards something, it is very easy to become agitated, overthink/overanalyse, subtly paranoid, or biasedly optimistic (placebo) about something I've ingested (supplement, food, etc).

At least attempt to concentrate, and make it a strong attempt. As we all know, POIS can really damage your concentration, but if a solution is working and is not placebo, your ability to concentrate is improving, consistently, this should be a good sign something is working and thus unlikely to be placebo.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 06:25:33 PM by warrioronthetrot »
Garlic, fenugreek, niacin, & matcha green tea

demografx

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Re: How to avoid placebo and nocebo effect?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2021, 03:36:26 PM »
warrioronthetrot, we prefer no profanity. Please edit.

It’s ok. I did:


…At least attempt to concentrate, and make it a strong [] attempt. As we all know, POIS can really [hurt] your concentration…

10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business