Author Topic: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy  (Read 71000 times)

nanna1

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2020, 10:22:25 PM »
  I wanted to share my opinion on what could be happening with the therapy's affect on the body. Maybe this will help everyone know why I did it this way and how to modify the therapy if you want to try it a different way. I see the immune system like a janitor/custodian/maintenance team of the body because the immune cells are responsible for fixing many problems. For example:
  • Fighting pathogens (bacteria, viruses, fungi)
  • Killing cancer cells and tumors
  • Quickly removing toxins, poisons, allergens and pathogens from the body (sneeze, sweat, cough, vomit, diarrhea, swelling)
  • Killing and recycling damaged or aged cells (anti-aging, youth promotion)
  • Wound healing (cleaning wound and providing growth hormones for repair)
  • Communicating problems in the body (pain, fatigue) and shifting the body towards healing (fever, sleep induction)
  • etc...
  The job of immune cells is to fix any of these problems that happen. I might try to get rid of POIS by boosting the immune system, but the immune system does not know that I am trying to treat POIS. There may be other problems in the body (arthritis, cancer cells, toxin build-up, etc...) that are not related to POIS. Because of limited resources, the immune system can only handle a certain number of problems at one time. When I boost my immune system, the first thing that will happen is that these cells will start trying to fix problems. The infection that is likely causing POIS is somewhere in the queue (or list) of problems that the immune system will try to solve. But I do not know how to get the immune system to only focus on POIS (or put POIS first in line).

  There were two main stages of immune activation that I was focused on hacking: the acute/novel and the immunocompetence stage. When a pathogen/toxin/problem/etc... is first introduced to the body, many of the immune cells respond and the immune system tries to control the problem through a trial-and-error process. These cells use cytokines and hormones to communicate partly because they don't yet know what the best way is to deal with the pathogen. The communication (cytokines, hormones) involves positive and negative feedback loops that have the overall effect of reducing ineffective immune strategies while promoting the most efficient and effective immune cell types. This discovery process is very resource/energy/nutrient expensive for the body and usually involves a lot of symptoms (pain, fatigue, etc...).

  Once the immune system finds an efficient solution to the problem using the fewest immune cells and the least resources, it memorizes this solution (adaptive immunity). This second stage is called immunocompetence, and it solves the problem (killing pathogens, kill cancer, etc...) efficiently, producing the fewest symptoms.
As an example, when you get an acute infection with the flu virus many cell types activate (neutrophils, monocytes, lymphocytes, basophils, etc...). Most of these immune cells are not effective or efficient at stopping the virus. So there are many symptoms that occur while the immune system figures out how to fight the virus. Eventually, the immune system discovers that the best strategy (with the fewest symptoms) uses natural killer (NK) cells, CD8/CD4 memory T cells and B cell antibodies. The next time this flu virus infects, more resources are devoted to NK, T, and B cells which quickly remove the virus without causing symptoms. This is immunocompetence.

  One goal I had with doing this therapy on myself was to force the immune system into immunocompetence. POIS may not be the first problem or the highest priority for the immune system to solve. But boosting the immune system over an extended period of time can give it enough time to do trial-and-error and discover the most efficient strategy for solving each problem that it finds.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 10:59:55 AM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

Hopeoneday

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 923
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2020, 09:24:13 AM »
What is intresting that some poisers has been helped by taking SNRI before O and antihistamines with pseudoephedrine , then on the other side, some of them has been helped by betablockers.

It will be intresting to prove (N. Jiang, et al, 2015) mu-opioid receptor hypothesis in poisers and theory of lack of NK cells response too.
I see that b-endorphins are syntysised in P-gland...soo, something inhibit that acording to  N. Jiang...
Dr-pois.

Iwillbeatthis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2020, 04:48:26 PM »
Zeobent synergises very well with the immuno complex for me, I thought I wouldn't need the zeobent anymore so I stopped but I felt sluggish and bad without it. I feel super high functioning with this mix.

Zeolite- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6983480/
Zeolite - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6277462/
Bentonite - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5632318/

certainlypois2

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2020, 05:58:56 PM »
Right now immune support items are harder to get. What would be the minimum daily stack that you feel would be effective? I've had many immune problems (constant brain fog) and POIS makes them significantly worse - but it feels like allowing latent problems to worsen, which supports the immune function theory I would think.

Thanks!

These are small suppliers that I have successfully bought immuno complex; hilife and natural healthy concepts. I just ordered one from netnutri, we will see how they turn out.
Net Nutri Successful!

hapl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2020, 09:04:34 PM »
Would it be advisable to supplement iron if you're taking copper every day? My understanding was that copper on its own might throw off the balance with iron, but I'm going by memory here.

drop247

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2020, 06:57:53 AM »
Originally, I thought that the POIS cascade stack cured my IBS, but when I cycled off my old stack for too long the IBS would return slowly but with less intensity than before.


Copper initially caused diarrhea and stomach pain in the area where I would normally get IBS, with a little nausea. But after a while of cycling copper on-and-off and gradually taking it more often throughout the day, the stomach problems caused by copper went away. And the IBS from POIS also went away at the same time.

It definitely seems like a common theme from you and amongst others that when IBS is no longer present POIS also disappears. If I remember correctly from your Cascade stack thread you were also using a vegan diet. Member GLC also had remission of his POIS with diet. Kurtosis reportedly had remission by solving his SIBO. I have no doubt the immune system is involved in POIS but perhaps by fixing the gut you can fix the immune system without having to boost it with supplements.

Muon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2903
    • MCAD Thread
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2020, 09:33:20 AM »
Avoidance of meat could be avoidance of his personal MC trigger.

He also gets symptoms from exercise which can be another trigger:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7003574/figure/F1/

COX inhibitors are being used to inhibit mediator production in MCs, page 207 table 3:
https://www.jillcarnahan.com/downloads/MCAS-Afrin.pdf

IBS and SIBO are common in MCAS. Diet is a valid treatment option.

Mast cells can change their reactivity.

berlin1984

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 791
  • Use Adaptogens and Antioxidants, they can help.
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2020, 11:09:42 AM »
On the day after O, I also note that my gut feels worse.

Zeobent synergises very well with the immuno complex for me, I thought I wouldn't need the zeobent anymore so I stopped but I felt sluggish and bad without it. I feel super high functioning with this mix.

Bentonite and Zeolite claim to absorb "toxins" and decrease gut wall permeability.

There is this thing called "Leaky Gut Syndrome" caused by Gluten/WGA and possibly Casein. It's one of the reasons I'm cutting out Wheat/Dairy (except butter) and I feel much better general health wise with that.

So my idea would be: Are we both achieving the same thing by different means? I cut out the causing food, you use Zeobent to combat the "leakiness" caused by some foods?

So let's assume the gut barrier is one way to stress the immune system and keep it from fighting the other problematic sites in your body, then for sure the mouth is another site causing problems: See the thread about gingivitis.

PS: I'm tempted to give Zeobent a try, but I feel I tried already too many things and supplements in my life.

I'm still hoping for the AHCC to kick in more. And I got the Vitamin C IV scheduled for June :-)

berlin1984

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 791
  • Use Adaptogens and Antioxidants, they can help.
Re: Immune Competence Therapy
« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2020, 11:30:11 AM »
I. prevent transient immune suppression

Note that a weak immune system is also highly represented in the nofap community it seems:

https://www.google.com/search?q=nofap+immune&oq=nofap+immune

(it's even the first Google suggestion if you just type "nofap i")

(And yes, the over-masturbators obviously remove all their zinc from their body and somehow "kill" their dopamine system.. there's a reason masturbation is seen as bad in religious texts worldwide)

berlin1984

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 791
  • Use Adaptogens and Antioxidants, they can help.
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2020, 01:56:48 PM »
  The same effect happen with AHCC and the nerve-pain/muscle-twitch. Once increasing my AHCC dose could no longer produce nerve pain, the pains and muscle-twitch that I used to experience during POIS also disapeared.

I discovered that a lot of us have neutropenia or near to it.
Nanna1 put it in table (it is rare), but not all poisers have it!

Thanks Hopeoneday for finding the neutropenia correlation!

According to https://draxe.com/nutrition/copper-deficiency/ :
Quote
Some possible symptoms of copper deficiency include:
    Anemia
    Bone abnormalities
    Osteoporosis
    Copper deficiency neuropathy
    Low numbers of white blood cells known as neutrophils (neutropenia)
    Increased susceptibility to infection
    Impaired growth
    Premature graying of hair/hair with less pigment than normal
    Skin paleness
    Neurological symptoms

According to https://www.psychguides.com/neurological-disorders/ :
Quote
Physical symptoms of neurological problems may include the following:
    Partial or complete paralysis
    Muscle weakness
    Partial or complete loss of sensation
    Seizures
    Difficulty reading and writing
    Poor cognitive abilities
    Unexplained pain
    Decreased alertness
^ I don't know which one of all those symptoms you had, but the POIS state also sounds like a (temporary?) copper deficiency?

But those symptom lists are (hopefully) drawn from the general average population, so they should have people with latent viruses, fungi, parasites etc, so it still makes sense that killing the root causes would then decrease your need for copper at the later "healed" stage.

berlin1984

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 791
  • Use Adaptogens and Antioxidants, they can help.
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2020, 02:13:30 PM »
Stack right now is Immuno complex , copper gluconate
Would match supplements recommended here https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322543#diet for Histamine Intolerance.

beta glucans

Can help relieve hay fever symptoms
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3951572/

I was also having zeobent (a mix of zeolite and bentonite) before every meal. This was working well but I decided to stop the zeobent and haven't been feeling as good since I've stopped so I might start it again, I was just worried it might not be safe.

I didn't really know Zeobent (or the two basic ingredients) and I found it very interesting that the product descriptions claims that it binds Histamine in the gut.


I was also having fish oil capsules which had vitamin d which worked well and that ran out,

Fish oil is recommended for hay fever / allergies (histamine...) https://www.nutriadvanced.co.uk/news/hay-fever-the-facts/
Vitamin D in general good I guess :-)

I have also been taking on and off - NAC to clear mucus

Yeah, I also take it against mucus.
This website claims it's also good for histamine intolerance (however if I google studies about it, they claim it releases Histamine?) https://factvsfitness.com/7-best-supplements-histamine-intolerance/

I also avoid yoghurt and alcohol
Contain histamine and contain+release histamine.

I do have white rice and white potatoes from time to time but I do feel it the next day still.
A potatoe and rice diet is actually recommended to test histamine intolerance.


My diet is sweet potatoes with meat: salmon, beef, chicken or brown rice and onions with meat, I also eat celery and carrots, almonds and popcorn and toritlla chips  and some fruit for snacks . I avoid broccoli, spinach because that makes me feel worse waking the next day but things have changed so maybe I should try it out again.
I'm curious if you cross out the foods there that are recommended for avoiding histamine intolerance symptoms, if that changes anything.
https://www.histaminintoleranz.ch/en/introduction.html

We can also continue this discussion in this other thread as to not hijack the one here...
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.msg34743#msg34743

berlin1984

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 791
  • Use Adaptogens and Antioxidants, they can help.
Re: Immune Competence Therapy
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2020, 07:45:20 AM »
III. Broad Spectrum Pathogen load reduction
**This is designed to kill pathogens in the body without needing to know which pathogenic infections are present.**
Intravenous ascorbate (vitamin C drip 5g, repeated three consecutive days)
copper gluconate (2mg repeated three consecutive days, >3hrs prior to IV ascorbate)

I did one too (thanks nanna1 for the idea):
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg34773#msg34773

Iwillbeatthis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2020, 01:54:37 PM »
Hi Nanna

I have just discorvered that pre workout supplement I have has l tyrosine in and not N-acetyl tyrosine does this matter? I have also discovered that it has AAKG (Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate) I should have searched this abreviation before I bought it. I'm guessing I should stop this Pre workout supplement then. Its annoying because the only pre workout with the good ingredients is only available for shipping to America.

Also I don't really feel a fog that feels like an immune reaction anymore now it just feels like a lack of norepinephrine brain fog. What drug/supplement would you take yourself if you wanted to boost norepinephrine. My metabolic urine test showed I am dopamine heavy and have trouble converting into norepinephrine. What do you think about droxidopa?

Copper and vitamin c don't seem to be enough for me in boosting norepinephrine.

My POIS doctor won't prescribe me Indomethacin because he says its too toxic.

Muon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2903
    • MCAD Thread
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #93 on: June 08, 2020, 02:07:48 PM »
My POIS doctor won't prescribe me Indomethacin because he says its too toxic.

Could you ask your POIS doctor if we could put him on the list of POIS doctors?

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2575.0

Iwillbeatthis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2020, 02:11:26 PM »
He's already on the list and I wrote a new post on that topic earlier please check it out

hurray

  • Lab1
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 382
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #95 on: June 08, 2020, 04:21:06 PM »
Hi Nanna

I have just discorvered that pre workout supplement I have has l tyrosine in and not N-acetyl tyrosine does this matter? I have also discovered that it has AAKG (Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate) I should have searched this abreviation before I bought it. I'm guessing I should stop this Pre workout supplement then. Its annoying because the only pre workout with the good ingredients is only available for shipping to America.

Also I don't really feel a fog that feels like an immune reaction anymore now it just feels like a lack of norepinephrine brain fog. What drug/supplement would you take yourself if you wanted to boost norepinephrine. My metabolic urine test showed I am dopamine heavy and have trouble converting into norepinephrine. What do you think about droxidopa?

Copper and vitamin c don't seem to be enough for me in boosting norepinephrine.

My POIS doctor won't prescribe me Indomethacin because he says its too toxic.

I have been having excellent results with milnacipran, which is a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor. Obviously it is a prescription drug that could only be taken after consulting with a doctor.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 04:20:30 AM by hurray »

Hopeoneday

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 923
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #96 on: June 11, 2020, 04:42:36 PM »

I have been having excellent results with milnacipran, which is a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor. Obviously it is a prescription drug that could only be taken after consulting with a doctor.
This is complit the oposite from this theory here.
Dr-pois.

hurray

  • Lab1
  • Sr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 382
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #97 on: June 11, 2020, 07:55:02 PM »

I have been having excellent results with milnacipran, which is a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor. Obviously it is a prescription drug that could only be taken after consulting with a doctor.
This is complit the oposite from this theory here.

Hi Hopeoneday,

NRIs are said to increase norepinephrine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine_reuptake_inhibitor

A norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (NRI, NERI) or noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor or adrenergic reuptake inhibitor (ARI), is a type of drug that acts as a reuptake inhibitor for the neurotransmitters norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline) by blocking the action of the norepinephrine transporter (NET). This in turn leads to increased extracellular concentrations of norepinephrine and epinephrine and therefore can increase adrenergic neurotransmission.

Quote
Because milnacipran increases serotonin and norepinephrine levels by inhibiting reuptake at presynaptic sites rather than through interaction with postsynaptic serotonergic and noradrenergic receptors, this drug is expected to have a side-effect profile consistent with increased peripheral exposure to these neurotransmitters

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3383514/


Mushnikk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2020, 01:17:39 AM »

I have been having excellent results with milnacipran, which is a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor. Obviously it is a prescription drug that could only be taken after consulting with a doctor.
This is complit the oposite from this theory here.

Not neccessarily, at least it's the same receptor family, perhaps a paradoxical reaction this guy is having. Or perhaps there is an opposing effect immediately after starting with the drug. The body balances the now excess noradrenaline to normalize the response (homeostasis) and in turn decreasing the noradrenergic response.

Or an overexpression of receptors is downregulated by the excess noradrenalin, but that process takes weeks, so not plausible here.

Source: clinical psychologist

BuckarooBanzai88

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: Transiently Induced Immune Deficiency and Therapy
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2020, 11:29:28 PM »
Has anybody tried this and found that it made POIS worse?  I'd already been taking some of the supplements, but adding more vitamin C, doing a 5G IV drip, and adding those immuno-stimulants seems to have increased POIS duration by 1.5 days.

Anyone else have that experience?