Stress Susceptibility

[Muon]

Welcome to Muon's polls 4 fun.

[Nas]

I said no mostly because I feel outside of POIS I'm a very chill guy. And in POIS I'm dead baisically.

[Muon]

Very interesting paper, I do recognize many effects this paper describes in my POIS (click on download full-text pdf at the right side):

Vagal Tone: A Physiological Marker of Stress Vulnerability

Withdrawal effects which some POIS papers describe might be withdrawal of vagal tone.

[Muon]

So if we assume that stress vulnerability/susceptibility is a marker of vagal tone and people having a higher susceptibility out of POIS could mean that their vagal tone is out of normal equilibrium. If they are even more vulnerable to stress inside POIS could mean that they are shifting their vagal tone even more out of equilibrium. Sudden recovery from POIS symptoms is basically a reverse of vagal tone towards the out-of-POIS non-equilibrium value. 

Ejaculation itself is induced by the SNS which could mean we are dealing with a sympathetic state. Some people mentioned that strong orgasm could ease their POIS symptoms a little bit. Orgasm itself might act as a stress reliever, activating the PSNS.

Graphical example where the only axis, the horizontal axis, depicts vagal tone (N= normal state):

-------N------(1)----------------------(2)-----

Out of POIS vagal tone is in an abnormal state (1). POIS pushes it from (1) to (2). This transition is basically the build up of POIS symptoms. Recovery from POIS symptoms could be a reverse transition from (2) to (1). The position of (1) and (2) might be variable as well depending on some unknown factors. The distance between  (1) and (2) or between N and (1) might represent symptomatology and duration as well from person to person.

[Nas]

Ejaculation itself is induced by the SNS which could mean we are dealing with a sympathetic state. Some people mentioned that strong orgasm could ease their POIS symptoms a little bit. Orgasm itself might act as a stress reliever, activating the PSNS.

I speak personally of course.
But I wouldn't say orgasm relieves POIS symptoms, that would be an oxymoron, rather with increased libido and perhaps after watching porn you can not de-stimulate yourself; as I am noticing that there is a great deal of withdrawal issues if I do not orgasm and fully ejaculate during sex. And that's where orgasm could be a stress reliever.
However stronger orgasms also mean longer POIS recovery phase, noted by how less time is needed to recover after a NE as opposed to masturbation. Masturbation alone also produces weaker POIS than porn masturbation.

[Muon]

See it as (2) comes closer towards (1) what orgasm does. The transition from (2) to (1) might be de-stimulation in conjunction with recovery but this is a spontaneous process. Then there is another factor I haven't taken into account and that is the amount of fluid that is being released which I think contributes to a worsening of symptoms in some. So you will have multiple factors that are driving the net rate of vagal tone change.

Some people state that, and from my own experience, when you already in a full POIS state (2) and ejaculate/orgasm again it tend to reset the dynamics and the full pois state will become worse. So what might happen is that when you start with (2) and orgasm, it will move towards a new state (3) and after some time it will reach a worsened state than you were already in like (4).

----N---(1)---(3)------(2)------(4).

1st orgasm: (1)--->(2)
2nd orgasm: (2)---->(3)----->(4)

[Muon]

Or a trigger of mast cell activation. POIS might lower mast cell stress trigger thresholds while POIS itself may be a mast cell activation trigger.

[Muon]

Neurobiology of BDNF in fear memory, sensitivity to stress, and stress-related disorders

[Rish]

I totally agree with NAS

[Muon]

https://youtu.be/37GtfXOP8dw?t=765

Dr. Theoharides:

"And then what happens is some of the molecules that we don't commonly discuss that are secreted from the mast cells act back on the mast cells. For instance, Corticotropin-releasing hormone is the main hormone released under stress from the hypothalamus in the brain. Yet, we published that human mast cells release more CRH than even the brain. And what happens is we also published that the mast cells have high affinity, very strong receptors for CRH. So if CRH is released after the mast cells have actually been activated, it will be released it will act back on the mast cells. So what happens is the mast cell grows even more receptors for CRH. So the mast cells now are much more susceptible to stress"

"And in fact, we publish papers where we measured CRH the stress hormone in the blood with patients to whom were given some decongestant State-Trait Anxiety Inventory, that within 34 questions are so gives you an idea how stressed individuals are. And CRH was very high in the blood and it was a very strong correlation with anxiety. So we know that. Therefore, any type of stress by definition is likely to stimulate the mast cells directly or make them more responsive either to new triggers or whatever triggers a patient might have had to begin with."

"We published a paper a long time ago that stress meaning CRH we add CRH to human mast cells they become much more responsive to Mercury, for instance, okay. And this is an area that just not being discussed, that the mast cells must have some threshold that is being reset. Because I have so many patients who basically say, "Something happened, and all of a sudden I'm allergic or I respond to everything"

Reminds me of some members who had stress prior to their POIS like Animus and suddenly develop POIS.

So if you look at the poll results POIS may trigger mast cells ---> release CRH ---> act back on itself (autocrine) ---> MCs grow more CRH receptors on itself thus making them more susceptible to stress during POIS.

[Muon]

Poll result is extremely one-sided. Since stress can worsen IBS I'm not surprised many POISers have IBS as shown in the list of conditions poll:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3188.msg34966#msg34966

Stress ---> NGF increase ---> increasing nerve fibers in gut mucosa leading to IBS? Elevated NGF levels are seen in AD patients as well. Some POISers in literature seem to have AD.

"Besides classical stress-related neurohormones like the players of the HPA axis - corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), adrenocorticotropic hormone, prolactin and glucocorticoids - the neurotrophin nerve growth factor (NGF) is now recognized as a crucial mediator of stress responses [12-14]."

Table 1: From the Brain-Skin Connection: The Neuroendocrine-Immune Misalliance of Stress and Itch

[Observer]

Stress susceptibility definitely higher in POIS situations, not an important factor out-of-POIS

[Hopeoneday]

IBS affects between 25 and 45 million people in the United States. About 2 in 3 IBS sufferers are female.Nov 24, 2016

[Muon]

Stress & the gut-brain axis: Regulation by the microbiome

The microbiome-gut-brain axis during early life regulates the hippocampal serotonergic system in a sex-dependent manner

Gut-Microbiota-Brain Axis and Its Effect on Neuropsychiatric Disorders With Suspected Immune Dysregulation

[Muon]

Might Patients with the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Have Latent Tetany of Magnesium Deficiency

"stress hormones cause Mg loss, and low Mg levels increase secretion of catecholamines"

"Paradoxically, low levels of Mg intensify the secretion of the catecholamines, thus increasing the risk of adverse effects of stress"

"In addition, Mg deficiency increases production of substance P which is found in central nervous system neurons."

Substance P ---> increases CRH receptor 1 expression on mast cells. Ref

Orgasm/arousal increases catecholamines, might lead to some Mg loss increasing substance P release further growing more CRH receptors resulting in increased susceptibility of stress and change of mast cell phenotype.

Lower seminal plasma magnesium is seen in premature ejaculation:
https://bjui-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06320.x

Autocrine triggers:

Ref

Substance P Stimulates Cyclooxygenase-2 and Prostaglandin E2 Expression through JAK-STAT Activation in Human Colonic Epithelial Cells

[Muon]

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg429373#msg429373

"I am 44. I have had pois at 42. It was a time of big stress and it started against the background of increased sexual activity."

More stuff crosslinking:

https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/hkic2q/is_pois_caused_by_pathogens/

aquantiV:

"doesn't check out for me. My symptoms emerged when I was otherwise healthy. I was under a ton of social and school stress though at that time, so I wondered and sometimes still wonder if it is psychosomatic. But the evidence stacks against that too (thank god)"

Animus, did you experience any stress or were you in a stressful situation just prior to your development of POIS symptoms?

Hi Muon,
Great question... thank you for asking. Short answer: YES.  Lots of stress at the time when I developed POIS.
I was stressed out with life in New York City, and wanting to leave.  Also intense physical stress I think. What really triggered it for me, was when I took some herbal "male enhancement pills". They were designed to give more powerful erections, and more volume ejaculations. They also caused my testicles to grow twice their size, seriously.  They had a very bad effect on me for some reason.

So, as to your question, I don't know if you mean physical or mental stress. But at the time, I certainly had both.

Dr. Theoharides:

" Therefore, any type of stress by definition is likely to stimulate the mast cells directly or make them more responsive either to new triggers or whatever triggers a patient might have had to begin with."

"We published a paper a long time ago that stress meaning CRH we add CRH to human mast cells they become much more responsive to Mercury, for instance, okay. And this is an area that just not being discussed, that the mast cells must have some threshold that is being reset. Because I have so many patients who basically say, "Something happened, and all of a sudden I'm allergic or I respond to everything" Ref

https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/gau9qf/did_you_exprience_any_changes_n_life_when_you/

POISFIGHTER:

"I'll say this. When I had surgery in May 2019 due to abdominal abscess and appendicitis, I was given loads of antibiotics and they checked my blood count and realised that by red blood cell count was very low. I was treated with Trihemic for a few weeks. During the time in the hospital, I also refrained from ejaculation, probably for about 3 weeks. When I left the hospital, I was able to ejaculate for 3-4 times per week with just slight body weakness after ejaculation. No other POIS symptoms were present. My POIS returned 8 months after."

I lost count how many times I encountered people on these boards having a history of some kind of anemia:

Common abnormalities in routine hematologic and serum chemistry tests found in the study population.

Squiggyzz

"I was exposed to mold since I used to live in section 8 housing. Had an allergy panel done last year and somehow I'm allergic to damn near everything. Like a bunch of trees, grass, corn, wheat, dogs, cats, dust mites, and etc. Surprisingly, no allergies to mold which also surprised the doctor. Also I wasn't allergic to all those things before, so something happened.

I was on antibiotics for awhile, but this was after I had pois symptoms already. Was on it long term because I had very bad acne when I was younger. Additionally I was getting frequent infections too, so was prescribed for those reasons as well.

I also have a history of asthma, bronchitis, and mild allergies (now my allergies are bad) . I remember going to the doctor as a kid and getting weekly shots. I still don't know what it was to this day. I do remember my mom telling me it was allergy shots. But wtf is allergy shots back in the early 90s? When I think back, I think these shots might have been what triggered it because I took them before I ever got pois."

Mast cells can activate the immune system leading to a hyperactive immune system which is unable to act optimally to infections. Below is another one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/f8iuf4/severe_illness_following_ejaculation/

Timur_1332:

"Hi Guys, wonder if any of you have every observed this sequence of events.
Youre in a new place, or situation, lots of stressors.
You have been exposed to some infections but have no symptoms because of strong immunity.
You ejaculate.
You add a final stressor such as an intense gym work out.
BAM you come down with 2 degree fever and full symptoms of the infection you were exposed to."

meatball4u:

"Never had that happen to me. But stress is part of how I developed POIS."

Some papers also mentioned stress at POIS onset.

[Muon]

Stellate Ganglion Block:
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2021/12/28/stellate-ganglion-long-covid-fibromyalgia

Discussion thread:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4098.0

[BoneBroth]

After this poll I would like to see a following up poll asking "Have you been or are you exposed to unusually high stress".

[Muon]

Why isn't CRH measured in POISers instead of standard bullshit blood panels?

[berlin1984]

My stress suspectibility has improved A LOT since taking a probiotic mix called Omni Biotic SR-9 (formerly known as Stress 9 but then renamed because of EU/German regulations) (The one without B vitamins).
My Fatigue has also improved a lot.
If one can't find this outside EU, one can look at the list of bacteria and maybe find a similar one.

I'm taking a probiotic called Omnibiotic SR-9 which is claimed to help for fatigue and stress resistence.

Additionally, I drink 1 small bottle of Actimel/Yacult during the day.

Of course I also drink 1-2 cups of coffee during the day, the number 1 supplement.

I take serotine influecing supplements (Ashwagandha, Rosea Rhodiola) only as acute medicine, not chronic daily usage.

^ This helped me a lot for general fatigue and energy levels. It also improved POIS a lot.

Here another interesting link:
Distinct Gut Bacterial Communities are Associated with Personality Traits: Study
http://www.sci-news.com/medicine/gut-bacteria-personality-traits-10670.html