Author Topic: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory  (Read 16082 times)

Fox

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Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« on: September 19, 2019, 07:35:13 AM »
Hello this is my first post on this forum. Because I am a medical doctor, I thought a lot about the possible causes of this disease. In my own case, POIS-symptoms seems to heavily improve after going gluten-free over many months. Other foods and niacin-containing food seem to have transient positive effects. Also many people on this forum report about dietary causes of POIS. Other symptoms such as headaches, stool problems and skin rashes improved in my case too. I have read about zonulin. A protein that is involved with the opening of tight junctions in the gut and in the brain. The opening of the blood-brain-barrier may cause reactions in the brain that cause brain fog. Maybe zonulin has also a working on the endothelium of the ejeculatory tracts too. When antigens enter the body through the opening junctions in the gut, then maybe a similar process happens through zonulin in the testicles in patients suffering from POIS. Opening of the endothelium junctions could cause autoimmune active agents in the serum to contact with the immune system. In the case of celiac disease also a certain DNA-Profile (HLA-DQ2/DQ8) is necessary to enable the immune-system to present the antigen and cause a pathologic reaction. Without this profile celiac disease can not develop with almost 100% certainty. Maybe a similar DNA-profile is necessary to cause POIS. Some people with POIS also report about gluten-sensitivity. Other causes of leaky gut, such as bacterial overgrowth do exist. Many people report about improvement of the symptoms on a healthy diet in general, that would fit with the idea that a healthy gut helps to reduce POIS symptoms.
What do you guys think?

demografx

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2019, 10:23:55 AM »
Fox, welcome to the forum.

Since I started this forum 12 years ago, I’ve always wanted to meet a POISer who is an M.D.! It’s my lucky day :)
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Aladin

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2019, 02:58:51 PM »
Good to hear that there are doctors here too!
Welcome!

Muon

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2019, 04:27:23 PM »
I have read about zonulin. A protein that is involved with the opening of tight junctions in the gut and in the brain.

I have checked that one out, it's normal: 30.6 ng/ml RR: <38 ng/ml

My brother did the same test, also normal: 31.1 ng/ml RR: <38 ng/ml

Perhaps this could indicate a leaky gut, not sure about this: Candida Albicans LTT

There might be increased permeability somewhere in the gut due to a mechanism other than disturbed tight junction modulation. The innate immune system might be activated on the spot using neutrophils/macrophages which could send out IL-8 during the process.

Normal gut flora like candida might leak through. The adaptive immune system might kick in due to chronic innate activation leading to specific candida T-lympocyte prolifieration and IFN-g production.

How this could lead to pois I don't know. Maybe some IL signaling might grow receptors on cells in the urinary tract acting on substances in seminal fluid which they did not do before.

I did the Zonulin test in the morning. Not sure if that's different than doing it later on the day after multiple meals.

VEGF is a molecule that is capable of opening up the blood brain barrier. That might be worth checking out.

Nas

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2019, 04:31:19 PM »
Always nice to hear a doctor claiming "leaky gut" as an actual diagnoses criteria.

Limejuice

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2019, 10:49:07 PM »
Welcome Fox.
Like you I also believe that my ‘version’ of POIS is caused by leaky gut/brain. Testing has shown this too. Determining and treating the root cause is another issue as I have severe food sensitivities (gluten, dairy, lectins, sugar) as well as opportunistic bacteria and parasites (found in stool sample). I suspect this has been ongoing for 30+ years... recovery is one day at a time.

certainlypois2

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2019, 11:54:57 AM »
Welcome Fox.
Like you I also believe that my ‘version’ of POIS is caused by leaky gut/brain. Testing has shown this too. Determining and treating the root cause is another issue as I have severe food sensitivities (gluten, dairy, lectins, sugar) as well as opportunistic bacteria and parasites (found in stool sample). I suspect this has been ongoing for 30+ years... recovery is one day at a time.

sorry if i missed this, how did you testing for food sensitivites.

Limejuice

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2019, 12:57:54 PM »
Through a blood test that measured the IGG, IGA, and IGE antibodies for various types of food. Since most came back very high it was determined that my small intestine was ‘leaking’ food into the blood stream and causing an immune reaction.

Fox

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2019, 02:17:51 AM »
I have checked that one out, it's normal: 30.6 ng/ml RR: <38 ng/ml
My brother did the same test, also normal: 31.1 ng/ml RR: <38 ng/ml
Perhaps this could indicate a leaky gut, not sure about this: Candida Albicans LTT

Serum zonulin as a marker of intestinal mucosal barrier function: May not be what it seems.

Please have a look a this article. It has a graphic with zonulin levels of healthy controls and  people with disease. Healthy controls seem to have low levels of zonulin, also measured in ng/ml in serum. Having normal zonulin levels does not rule out the fact that the might play a pathological role in the disease. As POIS is rare, perhaps some genetic door key mechanism is also needed, such as in celiac disease (HLA-DQ2/DQ8).  They did seem to use a different assay with different reference values.

I think your value of 30 ng/ml might correlate with 1.0 ng/ml in the other assay, such that it is somewhat higher than the median level of healthy controls.


« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 02:31:01 AM by Fox »

Fox

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2019, 02:35:13 AM »
I also read about leaky gut in obese men causing damage of DNA in sperm.
Obesity related metabolic endotoxemia is associated with oxidative stress and impaired sperm DNA integrity ..."metabolic endotoxemia (ME) may activate inflammation within the male reproductive tract, leading to increased reactive oxygen species production, sperm oxidative stress and a decline in DNA integrity."

Fox

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2019, 03:07:28 AM »
Welcome Fox.
Like you I also believe that my ‘version’ of POIS is caused by leaky gut/brain. Testing has shown this too. Determining and treating the root cause is another issue as I have severe food sensitivities (gluten, dairy, lectins, sugar) as well as opportunistic bacteria and parasites (found in stool sample). I suspect this has been ongoing for 30+ years... recovery is one day at a time.

I did interestingly notice a significant improvement of POIS and celiac symptoms after taking Clyndamycin for a tooth treatment. The antibiotic perhaps treated a bacterial foreign pathogen as well. Healthy gut flora seem to have a positive effect for most people here. As not everyone man is having POIS, maybe also genetics play a role.

Fox

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2019, 03:17:28 AM »
Always nice to hear a doctor claiming "leaky gut" as an actual diagnoses criteria.
Many MDs have difficulty with diagnosing systemic diseases such as POIS. When you go to a neurologist and talk about brain fog, muscle weakness and gut problems there is unfortunately a pretty big chance they won't take you seriously. Not every doctors knows all symptoms of celiac disease. I do think that many doctors don't even know about POIS. "Leaky gut" are also pretty hard to diagnose as results are many times negatives for many patients. I like to use plain terminology because we don't still know the exact relationship between gut problems and POIS.

demografx

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2019, 10:20:10 AM »
Fox, I sent along your opening post to our POIS research team.

Regarding our current POIS research study - - from Dr. Nicole Prause, our co-Investigator of our current study 100% funded by POISCenter.com members:

“We (Tierney Lorenz, PhD and I) received a grant to study post-orgasmic illness syndrome (POIS) from the non-profit National Organisation of Rare Disorders.”

More:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3006.msg29617#msg29617

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2462.0

Regards,
Demo
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 11:11:12 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2019, 10:35:03 AM »
Welcome Fox.
Like you I also believe that my ‘version’ of POIS is caused by leaky gut/brain. Testing has shown this too. Determining and treating the root cause is another issue as I have severe food sensitivities (gluten, dairy, lectins, sugar) as well as opportunistic bacteria and parasites (found in stool sample). I suspect this has been ongoing for 30+ years... recovery is one day at a time.

Limejuice, I just wanted to take a moment to thank you publicly for your many contributions over the years. And for your very long term loyalty to the cause!

Best,
Demo
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 10:54:04 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2019, 10:42:58 AM »
Fox, one forum member states without reservation 100% POIS-free success for 10 years. Drastic procedure: male hysterectomy (orchiectomy and more). Would be interested in any thoughts you have. Maybe we can learn from the procedure...but not do it! :)

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3004.0
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 12:49:40 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Muon

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2019, 12:36:51 PM »
I have checked that one out, it's normal: 30.6 ng/ml RR: <38 ng/ml
My brother did the same test, also normal: 31.1 ng/ml RR: <38 ng/ml
Perhaps this could indicate a leaky gut, not sure about this: Candida Albicans LTT

Serum zonulin as a marker of intestinal mucosal barrier function: May not be what it seems.

Please have a look a this article. It has a graphic with zonulin levels of healthy controls and  people with disease. Healthy controls seem to have low levels of zonulin, also measured in ng/ml in serum. Having normal zonulin levels does not rule out the fact that the might play a pathological role in the disease. As POIS is rare, perhaps some genetic door key mechanism is also needed, such as in celiac disease (HLA-DQ2/DQ8).  They did seem to use a different assay with different reference values.

I think your value of 30 ng/ml might correlate with 1.0 ng/ml in the other assay, such that it is somewhat higher than the median level of healthy controls.

Hmm I see. The assay antibodies might also cross react with other proteins. The relationship between CUSABIO and other assays is quite poor. If you use the linear function which they have drawn then 30 ng/ml is approx. equal to 1.0 ng/ml of the CUSABIO assay meaning it's not only above the median of healthy controls but also significantly above the median of NCWS and coeliac disease. So this doesn't rule out Zonulin, the accuracy of the values I provided are questionable.

Fernab did some genetic testing concerning coeliac disease:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25430#msg25430

But where do we go from here? Do you got any suggestions?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 12:39:14 PM by Muon »

b_jim

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2019, 12:42:50 PM »
Welcome and thanks to learn us what is zonuline. I find it interesting to know zonuline is present is intestine AND testicular barrier.

When I have sugar/junk food in my digestive system, all my intestine become hypersensitive. Diarrehas come 2-3 hours after orgasm. I clearly feel my intestine become "liquid".
Without sugar my Pois last 1 day.
With sugar my Pois last 3 days with hot flash 30 minutes after meals.

My experience with gluten :
- I have not celliac disease
- clearly gluten gave me important gaz and abdominal pain. (for example, I can't wear trousers with belt because I have important gaz accumulation)
- I don't have the feeling gluten free diet improve my Pois. But I didn't follow it very seriously.
 
Anyway, Taurine greatly improves my Pois, so metabolic/nervous system causes is still my favorite...
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 12:53:00 PM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois
Suffering from lyme disease

Limejuice

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2019, 01:14:55 PM »
Thank you Demo! This community has contributed to my motivation and information about POIS over the years too. Together we are a synergistic team :)

demografx

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2019, 05:09:25 PM »
:)  :)  :)
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Fox

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Re: Leaky gut, leaky brain theory
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2019, 06:58:06 AM »
Fox, one forum member states without reservation 100% POIS-free success for 10 years. Drastic procedure: male hysterectomy (orchiectomy and more). Would be interested in any thoughts you have. Maybe we can learn from the procedure...but not do it! :)

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3004.0
It seems that many of us are able to somehow reduce symptoms through dietary or other measures.  Interestingly, men report about less symptoms of POIS after penetration sex than through masturbation. I wonder if this relates to the fact that man in a relationship eat probably more healthy food. Fresh vegetables bring also healthy micro-organisms to balance the gut flora. There is a lote of ongoing research about gut-brain-axis pathological mechanisms. For example there is growing evidence that depression, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are at least negatively influenced by gut micro-organisms.
Probably different forms and levels of severity of POIS exist. It can be that this forum member had really severe disease. I have read that sterilisation alone does not help. The semen seems to be needed to cause the pathology. I could not find data about blood pressure changes and prolactin spikes in people with POIS after orgasm. Here is some   reference data I would generally advice against surgery, because we still don't know what POIS exactly is, there may be variants which may not respond to such surgical interventions.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 12:53:03 PM by demografx »