Developed POIS after antibiotic use

[Iwillbeatthis]

Simon I tried L argigine maybe i felt good the first few times for a few hours but then it stopped, it also started making me fatigued especially after showers and fatigue is never one of my usual symptoms, it also made me feel a bit anxious and foggy after a while

I have started drinking much more water than I was, before I was still drinking a lot maybe 2-3 litres a day. Now I have increased this quite a bit and started drinking a litre of water in maybe 5 mins. I feel incredible and way less foggy then I ever was honestly this feels better than any supplement I've ever tried. I am aware its not safe to drink more than a litre of water per hour and not more than 3 litres per day so I need to proceed with caution. I have been having a glass of water with Himalayan pink salt to try and balance the sodium after drinking thas much but I feel better without the salt drink lol. Also if I eat a meal which gives me brain fog and drink a litre of water after it quickly and I feel a lot bette than without.

It also feels like im flushing out some fungus bacteria in my stools and also urine with this increased water consumption, I am aware of the dangers of water intoxication if you're worrying about that.

On top of that I'm starting to do high intensity exercise like sprinting and also swimming. Before I was just doing three mile long runs quite fast and this wasn't really helping me at all and also gave me a brain fog and speech problems after the run and daily yoga wasn't helping that much. However I do think Yin yoga is good for POIS. I think short high intensity exercise is the best thing for pois and our brain fog.

I have been trying creatine, l glutamine and ionic zinc and can't really tell if they are helping or not. I've become more skinny than I want to be from a low carb diet so I'm working towards gaining more weight and muscle mass and slowly eating more low glycemic carbs. Also have joined the gym as I want to get into shape and lift weights.

[Simon66]

Hi Iwillbeatthis.

When I first took L-Arginine, I limited the dosage to about 250mg a day (Swanson Ajipure Arginine capsules) and around that time I had improvements in some symptoms (like dry eyes) but couldn't make a definite link to the Arginine due to the amount of other things I was taking. I next got a pure powder called "Doctor's Best L-Arginine" which was in the form of Arginine HCL (not a good form of Arginine) and I found it affected my sleep badly so I stopped.

Eventually, I found a product called "Now Sports L-Arginine powder" which is "Free-Form" Arginine (the most usable form of amino acid) and it contained no fillers. I took a large 3000mg dose of the Now Sports powder and the next morning found my worst post-antibiotic symptoms returned like hair falling out and soreness in my ear and neck cartilage. I thought the hair loss might be due to low levels of L-Lysine (this is the amino acid that antagonises Arginine and vice-versa) so I started taking an equal amount of L-Lysine with the L-Arginine.

For years before I took the fateful antibiotic, I had been dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome and strange things like a muscle tear that gets worse after an orgasm (some kind of connective tissue disorder). I found that taking the Arginine/Lysine combination would stop the muscle pain and I think Arginine on its own might actually do the same thing. I have since taken a 3000mg dosage of Arginine again without any Lysine and didn't get the same scary symptoms so I'm thinking maybe the Arginine caused some kind of die-off reaction. When I then took the Arginine on it's own, I tended to wake up heavily fatigued so I added the Lysine again and found that got rid of the heavy fatigue in the mornings.

Today, I decided to try 3000mg of Arginine on its own again and within about 4 hours, I had a racing heartbeat, sinus pain and heavy fatigue (so it seems Lysine might block some of the effects of Arginine). It's amazing how similar this sounds to what you're dealing with. I am going to stop the Lysine and just take Arginine in various doses over the coming days, I need to find out if this really is a die-off reaction.

Regarding the salt, I personally wouldn't consume that since salt is an inflammatory and it can deplete things like calcium. With exercise, when I used to force myself to go cycling, I would stay out for about an hour and generally felt a lot better. I don't think exercise clears a fungal overgrowth though so I stopped.

I've tried the Creatine, Glutamine and Zinc. I'm really not sure that they've helped.

All signs do point to this being a fungal overgrowth. Here's an article that suggests Nitric Oxide kills Candida but that the Candida finds a way to disable the Nitric Oxide:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096203
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905260/

Arginine is one of the best ways to boost Nitric Oxide and perhaps kill off a candida overgrowth. I also have some Colostrum LD that may be equally good at killing candida. The real difficulty is figuring out whether something is a die-off reaction or if it's actually making things worse, that takes so much time.

[Simon66]

Interesting Curezone post here, person took antibiotics and had problems with ejaculation. They suspect it is some kind of fungal candida overgrowth:

https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=2201869#i

[Simon66]

I've been testing my existing supplements. Here's what I've discovered:

BioGaia Protectis Probiotic Baby Drops (L. Reuteri) - This initially caused stinging in my gut which I believe was some pathogen being killed off. I'm now able to take loads of this probiotic without such a reaction. This is the only probiotic that I remember having such a reaction (and I have about 30 different probiotics) so it must be quite unique. This probiotic is apparently good for killing candida.

Sovereign Labs Colostrum LD - This also caused stinging in my gut. In the same way as the BioGaia, I could eventually take as much as I wanted without any reaction. I didn't feel like this supplement helped long-term and it's extremely costly so I've stopped.

Now Sports Arginine Powder and Now Lysine Powder - Balance of these two amino acids seems very important. Taking Arginine on its own fixes my chronic sinus congestion. Taking Lysine on its own has a bad effect. Taking Arginine and Lysine together repairs some connective tissues. I am still trying to find the best combination of these two.

Now Calcium Carbonate - This seems to give me really good energy but eventually I start getting stabbing pain in various parts of my body which I believe to be calcium deposition. The antibiotic I took Ciprofloxacin has been known to screw up calcium channels in the body.

[Simon66]

I'm still wondering if POIS is a fungal infection, maybe in the testicles. At one point in time, I had bouts of stabbing pain in my left testicle that made it difficult to walk. My symptoms are located in such specific areas of the body that I really do think this is a systemic, lingering infection that the immune system can't touch.

Taking Arginine initially seems to cause a rapid heart beat and some connective tissue pain but only for the first day and then my health starts to improve. Arginine boosts nitric oxide and supposedly kills candida. Arginine is a double-edged sword because it feeds viruses so I can't take it in large doses.

I think good bacteria help prevent such systemic infections and I've nuked my immune balance by taking antibiotics too many times. Some probiotics help and others seem to make things worse. Colostrum LD definitely does something but I think it needs to be taken for several months to get visible benefits.

[Guts]

Back when i was 22/23 I developed severe inflammation pain in my shoulders to the point where i had to stop doing anything, i had to stop every sports even just holding a packet of milk would hurt. It felt worse than extreme high intensity weight training. Like someone grabbed a syringe with alcohol, chili pepper and vinegar and jammed it into my shoulders. this spread to other parts of the body later on. For about a year testicle pain where occasionally its was too difficult to walk or use the bicycle. At one point i had to lay on bed and screamed of testicle pain i wanted to go to the emergency department but i knew they wouldn't help just like last time. Doctors wouldn't prescribe anything for pain. 
 
This is garbage....it completely sucks... also all movies, documenteries (also hollywood movies) about auto-immune diseases are trash... they don't even come close to reality. That "brain on fire movie" total garbage.

[Simon66]

Have you done any experimenting with L-Arginine?

This amino acid is definitely involved in both connective tissue and sexual function, it also seems to affect the immune system.

[Muon]

Simon, have you ever done a feces test for Beta-defensin 2? See this post:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg31902#msg31902

[Simon66]

Simon, have you ever done a feces test for Beta-defensin 2? See this post:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg31902#msg31902

No, but I'm fairly confident that the gut is the source of my problems so that test wouldn't help much. Whether it's a bacteria/fungal imbalance, a damaged gut lining or some kind of inflammation syndrome, I'm not sure yet.

I know I have signs of some mild connective tissue disorder in my body and there is a specific area of my gut that feels damaged when I ingest certain essential oils. It seems like Arginine (possibly with Lysine) is the best way to rebuild damaged bodily tissues but it takes weeks of supplementing to get results.

Arginine is supposed to fix gut inflammation if you read this research article:
https://iai.asm.org/content/81/10/3500

I think I'm getting close to figuring my health issues out. I've stopped all of my supplements except Arginine but I'm still not sure if some Lysine is needed.

[Mushnikk]

Simon, have you ever done a feces test for Beta-defensin 2? See this post:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg31902#msg31902

No, but I'm fairly confident that the gut is the source of my problems so that test wouldn't help much. Whether it's a bacteria/fungal imbalance, a damaged gut lining or some kind of inflammation syndrome, I'm not sure yet.

I know I have signs of some mild connective tissue disorder in my body and there is a specific area of my gut that feels damaged when I ingest certain essential oils. It seems like Arginine (possibly with Lysine) is the best way to rebuild damaged bodily tissues but it takes weeks of supplementing to get results.

Arginine is supposed to fix gut inflammation if you read this research article:
https://iai.asm.org/content/81/10/3500

I think I'm getting close to figuring my health issues out. I've stopped all of my supplements except Arginine but I'm still not sure if some Lysine is needed.

How much arginine do you take? I could not find dosage recommendations to rebuild the intestinal barrier.

[demografx]

Mushnikk, welcome to POISCenter!

[Simon66]

Simon, have you ever done a feces test for Beta-defensin 2? See this post:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg31902#msg31902

No, but I'm fairly confident that the gut is the source of my problems so that test wouldn't help much. Whether it's a bacteria/fungal imbalance, a damaged gut lining or some kind of inflammation syndrome, I'm not sure yet.

I know I have signs of some mild connective tissue disorder in my body and there is a specific area of my gut that feels damaged when I ingest certain essential oils. It seems like Arginine (possibly with Lysine) is the best way to rebuild damaged bodily tissues but it takes weeks of supplementing to get results.

Arginine is supposed to fix gut inflammation if you read this research article:
https://iai.asm.org/content/81/10/3500

I think I'm getting close to figuring my health issues out. I've stopped all of my supplements except Arginine but I'm still not sure if some Lysine is needed.

How much arginine do you take? I could not find dosage recommendations to rebuild the intestinal barrier.

I wish I knew the ideal dosage to rebuild the gut mucosa. I do know that some muscle pain elsewhere in my body gradually heals over 1 or 2 weeks at fairly low doses of Arginine (1 gram a day), possibly with Lysine. Having an orgasm or drinking some harmful substance like coffee seems to stop the healing and trigger the muscle damage so I would guess abstaining from such triggers for a week while taking the Arginine should hopefully start healing. I've been wanting to try some higher doses of Arginine, people with mitochondrial diseases take over 10 grams a day but I have no idea if that's safe and I'm a bit concerned about depleting other amino acids in the process.

I take 1.5 grams minimum in a day, sometimes 3 grams of the Now Sports Arginine powder. Lately, I balance the Arginine with equal amounts of Lysine because I think the Arginine reactivates latent viruses in my body when taken on its own for more than a week.

If you're not already aware of the relationship between Arginine and Lysine, that's something to read up on. In short, these two amino acids interact with each other, taking only one can cause deficiencies in the other. Arginine and Lysine are both involved in connective tissue production.

For your information, some people advise against taking Lysine long term, large doses are apparently hard on the kidneys.

[Muon]

I think ANS imbalance/SNS overactivity should be fixed first before you can address gut repair. It's like pumping air into a flat tire otherwise. Just my two cents.

[drop247]

Interesting article Simon66. I have been experimenting with Glutamine myself for the last week based on the recommendations of this page:
https://goodbyeleakygut.com/l-glutamine-leaky-gut/

I ramped up to 30g per day but unfortunately had to travel for a few days and couldn't bring my powder with me. So I'm back to baseline. I did notice some changes to my bowel habits though that were positive. My normally loose stools were much improved and I even went a whole day without a bowel movement which for me is very unusual. I'm restarting the experimentation now. Please keep us posted on Arginine.

It's interesting your article mentions malaria. I did get infected with malaria once in my life though it was after I started having POIS. My POIS at the time shortly after my malaria infection was treated (and cured) was the worst of my life. So bad I nearly lost consciousness once. Perhaps this was due to malaria's effect on arginine levels and damage to my gut.

[Muon]

Neural regulation of gastrointestinal inflammation: Role of the sympathetic nervous system

[Simon66]

drop247, thanks for the information. I have tried L-Glutamine without success. I am using Arginine with Lysine but my results aren't consistent.

Neural regulation of gastrointestinal inflammation: Role of the sympathetic nervous system

Muon, I would not be surprised if the gut and brain is a 2-way street, both influencing each other via the vagus nerve. People treat depression with Arginine and Lysine so I wouldn't say I am just focusing on the gut. My approach is just to test supplements and see what helps, it's a lot easier to do that than rely on expensive lab tests which I have grown tired of paying for.

I am retesting Molybdenum for anyone interested in my current progress. I'm fairly reactive to vitamins and minerals since my antibiotic usage, I get the feeling that some unknown deficiency is preventing important metabolic processes from working. I am intolerant to most B vitamins, Manganese, Calcium, Magnesium and probably many others so perhaps they antagonise Molybdenum.

I keep a daily diary of the supplements I take, the foods I eat and the symptoms I experience. From looking back in my diary, it is possible that intermittent Molybdenum use has improved my Chronic Fatigue so I will be trying to determine if this is the case. Molybdenum is a cofactor in enzyme function, it helps process sulphur foods and it detoxes the byproducts of candida such as acetaldehyde.

[Muon]

Here is a guy who had a high lipid profile and SIBO. They have used a treatment plan to lower it. Just dumping it here in case you might want to try some stuff for your high lipid profile. Also see table 2 for an antimicrobial protocol to treat the SIBO and dysbiosis. High Cholesterol and Heart Disease Case Study

[Simon66]

Here is a guy who had a high lipid profile and SIBO. They have used a treatment plan to lower it. Just dumping it here in case you might want to try some stuff for your high lipid profile. Also see table 2 for an antimicrobial protocol to treat the SIBO and dysbiosis. High Cholesterol and Heart Disease Case Study

There's definitely some kind of cascade that causes all of these issues, I'm keeping an open mind.

I am currently testing Beta-Alanine which is a precursor to an antioxidant amino acid called L-Carnosine. There's a nice fact sheet here:

https://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2012/6/Carnosine-Proven-Longevity-Factor

The part that interests me is that Carnosine can recover damaged mitochondria (which the Cipro antibiotic I took apparently causes). I know from my medical test results that my Superoxide enzymes are extremely high which could suggest mito dysfunction. There are other indicators that Carnosine might help, particularly around calcium transport and also with mood. The Cipro antibiotic caused me to be intolerant to calcium supplements and it also caused severe anxiety initially.

Carnosine is apparently best supplemented by taking precursors Beta-Alanine and Histidine. I will report back with my results soon, I am using Now Sports Beta Alanine.

[Muon]

I wonder if you are triggering something via calcium channels with calcium supplements. What amount/dose are we talking about and how much time does it take before you feel bad after ingestion? The combination of superoxide and high cholesterol could be related to endothelial cells/sheer stress.

[Simon66]

I wonder if you are triggering something via calcium channels with calcium supplements. What amount/dose are we talking about and how much time does it take before you feel bad after ingestion? The combination of superoxide and high cholesterol could be related to endothelial cells/sheer stress.

For a while I had the same reaction to calcium when eating foods like cheese. One possibility is that oxidative stress depleted carnosine in my muscles and then my body had no means of signalling calcium.

Within 24 to 48 hours, I would end up with painful calcium deposits in my hands. It was like the body didn't have the means to put the calcium where it needed to go.

I've improved and now don't really react to foods anymore. I'm still looking for the magic bullet that fixes all of my problems, amino acids seem promising but it's going to take a long time to find the right combination. With Beta-Alanine, it can take months for all of the muscles in the body to become saturated with Carnosine. Carnosine is used as a buffer to control lactic acid, maybe a deficiency would also explain why my legs sometimes burn.