Developed POIS after antibiotic use

[Simon66]

I'm still playing around with various supplements like Allicin, Aged Black Garlic, my 4 single-strain probiotics (BB536, 299v, BioGaia & Linden's Acidophilus).

I'm not sure about amino acids yet, I get the impression they are deficient but supplementing them (mainly arginine) feeds some harmful pathogen. L-Arginine seemed to give me some benefits the first time I took it but then caused some hair loss and cartilage pain, I am guessing it caused an L-Lysine deficiency since Lysine is used for hair and cartilage production. Arginine and Lysine compete with each other so maybe I need to take them both together. For now though, I'm testing just the Lysine.

This may interest some of you. I found an account of someone who suffers from Ménière's disease; their experiences and the protocol they are using is eerily similar to mine. Here's the link:

https://joebongiorno.com/menieres-disease

[Simon66]

Further to my last post, I believe that L-Arginine helps me in small doses like 500mg a day or less but I had some bad symptoms develop when taking 3000mg per day of L-Arginine, I believe this was due to an L-Lysine deficiency caused by too much L-Arginine. L-Arginine and L-Lysine compete with each other.

One of my bad symptoms from high dose L-Arginine was hair loss and I found someone else who had a similar experience:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/l-arginine-supplements-sudden-rapid-hairloss.101641/

I was reading another thread on the POIS forum where the person had good results with L-Arginine on the first day and then some issues on the second day:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=506.msg11584#msg11584

I wonder what would happen if this person took both L-Arginine and L-Lysine together or they kept the L-Arginine dose to 500mg or less.

[Simon66]

I have just about exhausted all of my options with supplements.

I believe 2 things have caused the recent improvements in my health:
1) Full-fat, lactose-free milk.
2) Probiotic - B. Longum BB536.

Tomorrow, I will be trying some whey protein isolate, hopefully it is a stronger version of the milk I'm drinking. Whey contains amino acids and boosts glutathione.

Anyone who has tried whey already, feel free to post your experiences.

[Muon]

My experience with whey was bad. I did get a few red spots on my lower arms or hands and more brainfog. Unprocessed meat is still the best source of protein for me.

[Simon66]

My experience with whey was bad. I did get a few red spots on my lower arms or hands and more brainfog. Unprocessed meat is still the best source of protein for me.

I have some doubts about whey also. Protein may be the wrong part of the milk, I may need the fatty acids and fat-soluble vitamins instead. I previously changed from whole/full-fat milk to a semi-skimmed milk and it seemed like things maybe got a bit worse.

I'm finding this supplement testing very slow progress, it takes weeks of starting and stopping supplements repeatedly before I can even begin to figure anything out.

Muon, have you tried drinking lots of full-fat, lactose-free milk? About 2 large glasses per day.

[Simon66]

I seem to have reacted badly to Whey protein isolate, had symptoms like feeling dizzy, loss of balance and numbness in my arms and legs.

I'm left wondering why drinking full-fat milk seems to make me better but powdered whey isolate and bovine colostrum seem to do the opposite. I used to drink cows milk every day as a child, perhaps my gut bacteria and immune system became dependent on it. I stopped drinking milk when I became severely lactose intolerant during my teenage years.

[Simon66]

I will probably be testing a B12 injection soon, the milk that has helped me is apparently one of the best sources of absorbable B12 so I am revisiting my previous B12 theory that I had postponed due to my fears of injecting B12.

I previously tried 3 types of B12 tablets, the Methyl and Hydroxy versions gave me a bad reaction but the Cyano version (the artificial type) was tolerated up to 1000mg.

B12 is a difficult vitamin because the stomach has to first produce a substance called intrinsic factor in order to absorb the B12. People with stomach issues or an autoimmune disease that attacks the stomach will struggle to get enough B12 even with oral supplementation.

My plan is to finally get the testing done before I take any B12 injections. The B12 tests are a pain in the neck because there is no easy way to identify it, you basically have to look at substances that indirectly interact with B12.

I will order the following 5 tests:

• Intrinsic Factor Antibodies (Autoimmune Test)
• Parietal Cell Antibodies (Autoimmune Test)
• Methylmalonic Acid
• Homocysteine
• Active B12 (I don't think this test accurately shows B12 availability but I included it anyway)

I will order some Cyanocobalamin vials from a German pharmacy where the stuff is available without prescription and will see if I can work up the nerve to risk injecting myself.

[Muon]

Muon, have you tried drinking lots of full-fat, lactose-free milk? About 2 large glasses per day.

No but my brother did.

I will order the following 5 tests:

• Intrinsic Factor Antibodies (Autoimmune Test)
• Parietal Cell Antibodies (Autoimmune Test)
• Methylmalonic Acid
• Homocysteine
• Active B12 (I don't think this test accurately shows B12 availability but I included it anyway)

I did 2, 4 and 5. Test 5 has been executed 3 times by two different specialists. Test 2 and 4 are normal but all the active Vit B12 tests came back elevated.

[Simon66]

I'll see what happens with the new B12 tests but I will probably have to try a B12 injection even if the tests are within range.

I know my Homocysteine levels are already on the high side, I had it tested twice previously:

1st test: 15.10 umol/L (<15)
2nd test taken one week later: 13.70 umol/L (<15)

Reference:
Desirable level up to 10 umol/L.
>15 umol/L may indicate increased risk of cardiovascular disease.

[Muon]

By the way osteocalcin directs fat cells to release adiponectin and adiponectin is inversely correlated with body mass index. What is your BMI?

Oh and you talked about Vit K2 a while back. Doesn't vit K2 turns uc-osteocalcin into osteocalcin? I guess there are no problems with K2 levels being low since osteocalcin is elevated.

[certainlypois2]

Muon, are you and your brother twins.

[Muon]

Muon, are you and your brother twins.

No

[BoneBroth]

Hi Simon66! I just read up on your symptoms and they look like the same symptoms as for excess cortisol (connective tissue damage, joint pain, fat padding loss, bruising). Bellyfat and build-ups around the cheek area and neck lump is also common on cortisol excess. I have many of theese symptoms as well. However, if you experience improvements by increasing the building blocks for cortisol (whey, protein and fats) maybe it's not the cortisol itself that is the problem, but the balancing anabolic hormones (testosterone, DHEA).

Thats why other people here got improvements by eating eggs and doing testosterone replacement therapy (testosterone patches). So why is there a lack of anabolic hormones? I can think of two reasons: 1. Not absorbing enought cholesterol because of gut/stommach problems. 2: "Prednelone steal" (a.k.a "cortisol steal"). During POIS the adrenals pump out cortisol like crazy to combat the POIS-caused inflammation. So all raw materials goes to cortisol and nothing left to DHEA etcetera. Healthy adrenals secrete equal amounts of cortisol and DHEA upon stress. User Nanna1 showed an example of laboratory test result from an Egyptian engineer with POIS. His cortisol levels were hight and DHEA/testosterone low. Cortisol is our friend when we have POIS because it stops the inflammation, and balanced with DHEA it should not have any side effects at all, particularly not bioidentical cortisol (the one we produce ourself). The reason cortisol treatment has got a bad reputation is because it is administered at hospitals without protectice hormones. Studies shows that bioidentical cortisol administred with anabolic hormones does not have the same side effects. In addition, a hight protein diet is protecting from cortisols side effects.

I have started a hight protein diet now. More eggs (6-12 a day), protein supplements, EFA's and coconut oil (in addition to Nanna1's supplement stack). And I'm also trying to fix my gut problems (Aloe Vera juice, fibers, bioresonance teraphy etcetera). I'm thinking to try testosterone patches/pregnelone cream as well. Does anyone here got better with DHEA supplements or prednelone cream?

[Simon66]

By the way osteocalcin directs fat cells to release adiponectin and adiponectin is inversely correlated with body mass index. What is your BMI?

Oh and you talked about Vit K2 a while back. Doesn't vit K2 turns uc-osteocalcin into osteocalcin? I guess there are no problems with K2 levels being low since osteocalcin is elevated.

My weight changes depending on what I eat but nothing strange that would indicate Osteocalcin causing such problems. Yes, Osteocalcin is activated by K2. I was supplementing K2 MK4 and MK7 some months ago but have stopped for now. I could retest Osteocalcin but I can't justify the cost or effort to get these tests done privately anymore, supplements are a lot cheaper to try.

[Simon66]

Hi Simon66! I just read up on your symptoms and they look like the same symptoms as for excess cortisol (connective tissue damage, joint pain, fat padding loss, bruising). Bellyfat and build-ups around the cheek area and neck lump is also common on cortisol excess. I have many of theese symptoms as well. However, if you experience improvements by increasing the building blocks for cortisol (whey, protein and fats) maybe it's not the cortisol itself that is the problem, but the balancing anabolic hormones (testosterone, DHEA).

Thats why other people here got improvements by eating eggs and doing testosterone replacement therapy (testosterone patches). So why is there a lack of anabolic hormones? I can think of two reasons: 1. Not absorbing enought cholesterol because of gut/stommach problems. 2: "Prednelone steal" (a.k.a "cortisol steal"). During POIS the adrenals pump out cortisol like crazy to combat the POIS-caused inflammation. So all raw materials goes to cortisol and nothing left to DHEA etcetera. Healthy adrenals secrete equal amounts of cortisol and DHEA upon stress. User Nanna1 showed an example of laboratory test result from an Egyptian engineer with POIS. His cortisol levels were hight and DHEA/testosterone low. Cortisol is our friend when we have POIS because it stops the inflammation, and balanced with DHEA it should not have any side effects at all, particularly not bioidentical cortisol (the one we produce ourself). The reason cortisol treatment has got a bad reputation is because it is administered at hospitals without protectice hormones. Studies shows that bioidentical cortisol administred with anabolic hormones does not have the same side effects. In addition, a hight protein diet is protecting from cortisols side effects.

I have started a hight protein diet now. More eggs (6-12 a day), protein supplements, EFA's and coconut oil (in addition to Nanna1's supplement stack). And I'm also trying to fix my gut problems (Aloe Vera juice, fibers, bioresonance teraphy etcetera). I'm thinking to try testosterone patches/pregnelone cream as well. Does anyone here got better with DHEA supplements or prednelone cream?

Thanks for the response, I do think there is a cascade of problems and a cortisol response to some underlying issue. It does seem like most POISers have some kind of resource deficiency in the body perhaps due to some bowel malabsorption issues.

I retried whey protein isolate today and haven't gotten any bad symptoms yet so perhaps it was just a one-off bad reaction that I experienced 2 days ago. I actually tried some aloe vera juice yesterday (tastes revolting like eating air freshener) and felt much worse in the evening so not sure about it.

I personally steer clear of hormone and steroid supplements. I hear that once you start taking hormones, the body won't produce it's own to the same levels as before. Artificial steroids used to suppress inflammation cause all kinds of problems long-term like bone necrosis.

If you're pursuing the protein supplements as a solution to POIS, it may be worth you creating a thread for this as there seem be different types of protein like whey concentrate, whey isolate, casein. I'll happily contribute my experiences if you send me a link.

[Simon66]

I'm putting my B12 investigations on hold. I may not have reacted badly to Whey protein at all, I ate a cheap curry on that day and I suspect that was the cause of my dizziness and loss of balance.

I took a half scoop of whey isolate (12.5 grams) this morning without any problems and I've now just taken a full (25 gram) scoop. Tomorrow, I should know if whey isolate is useful. I may lift some weights also tonight in order to boost my testosterone and use some of this protein in my body.

From what I've read, whey is a useful supplement for healing the gut due to the rich source of aminos and proteins:

Whey protein concentrate (WPC) is a protein-enriched powder made from whey during the process of cheese making. It is commonly used in the manufacturing of foods for infants and young children. Emerging evidence has demonstrated that WPC is useful for the treatment of a wide variety of gastrointestinal disorders such as inflammatory bowel disease and necrotising enterocolitis( 1 , 2 ). It has been found that the beneficial role of WPC in the intestine is closely related to its numerous bioactive compounds including functional amino acids, lactoferrin (LF) and growth factors, which is largely attributed to the stimulation of mucin synthesis and modification of immune response( 2 , 3 ). Recently, it has also been reported that WPC improves intestinal epithelial barrier function in vitro ( 4 ). However, the molecular mechanisms underlying the protective effects are poorly understood.

WPC contains abundant bioactive compounds that are vital for immune and gut development early in life( 5 , 6 ). Among the most relevant substances in WPC are Ig, LF and growth factors (e.g. transforming growth factor ? (TGF-?) and epidermal growth factor (EGF)). Nevertheless, investigations directly examining the role of WPC in affecting the barrier integrity in vivo have not been reported. It is also of great interest to investigate whether bioactive compounds in WPC can be partly involved in WPC-induced prevention of intestinal epithelial barrier disruption. Until now, there are little data about the role of WPC in restitution of intestinal epithelium after injury( 4 ).

Source: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/whey-protein-concentrate-enhances-intestinal-integrity-and-influences-transforming-growth-factor1-and-mitogenactivated-protein-kinase-signalling-pathways-in-piglets-after-lipopolysaccharide-challenge/BA1FCE198FADAC7AA05E6C0E7365A574/core-reader#

Whey comprises major proteins, for example, b-lactoglobulin, a-lactalbumin, serum albumin, immunoglobulins and glycomacropeptide (Eigel et al., 1984), as well as minor proteins such as lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase. Many of these proteins have been found to possess a variety of bio-active properties including modulation of the immune system. Furthermore, minor changes in dietary amino acid profile, due to consumption of different whey protein mixtures, have been found to modify the immune response without having a significant impact on nutritional status, suggesting that different WPC preparations can have different effects on the immune system.

Source: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09540100120094519

[Simon66]

I took quite a lot of Whey Isolate yesterday and the only improvement seems to be better gut transit. I think all of the aminos in whey might be good for building the gut mucosal lining. My other issues have not improved though.

I didn't take low-dose L-Arginine yesterday and had more pain in my perineum where I have some kind of persistent tissue tear. It seems like there is a delay between taking L-Arginine and getting the benefits. I am taking a low dose (between 250 and 500mg) daily and I think it starts working after maybe 5 days. I do wonder why there is a delay, perhaps Growth Hormone or something else is slowly boosted.

One thing Arginine is used for is producing Creatine. I have for the first time tried a very small dose of Creapure Creatine today so I will provide an update on the effects. Those interested in Creatine should first do some reading as there are warnings that supplementing it can damage the kidneys.

[Simon66]

I tried some whey isolate again, it doesn't do much for me other than improve my gut transit. A side effect is it causes my body odour to become abnormal.

I am wondering if I have ammonia issues. Ammonia is a byproduct of amino acid breakdown and whey is a good source of amino acids. I've started taking a supplement called Now Tri-Amino, it contains Arginine and Ornithine which are used to detoxify ammonia. The Tri-Amino also contains Lysine which seems to balance with the arginine. I have a feeling ammonia is mostly detoxed during sleep so I'll post an update soon.

I also tested creapure creatine for 2 days and can't say I've noticed any effects.

[Simon66]

I think there is something very important about L-Arginine. I keep having to rotate my supplements in order to figure out what helps and what doesn't, it takes months to get a good idea of what works.

L-Arginine does something significant and it's going to take me a while to figure it out. I also need to figure out whether I need to be taking some L-Lysine with the L-Arginine to balance it out.

I'm just posting this information in the event someone else here wants to test it. If you do, I recommend first buying the Now Sports L-Arginine Powder (large orange tub), I have no affiliation with this brand but I have bought a few different L-Arginine products and the quality of each differs a lot. Also, the Now Sports L-Arginine smells exactly like my semen does which might be an indication that POIS (in my case) is some sort of Arginine deficiency caused by semen production.

[Muon]

''A logical strategy to reverse the competitive inhibition of NOS by ADMA would be to employ supplemental L-arginine. However, studies of supplemental L-arginine in patients with coronary artery disease are small, and the results have been mixed''

Problems with NOS/NO function/levels could lead to endothelial dysfunction and could explain why people don't tolerate hot showers. The endothelial response is off. Decreased NO levels are also associated with premature ejaculation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24118023

I'm not sure these oral supplements will reach the bloodstream intact.