Author Topic: Developed POIS after antibiotic use  (Read 6432 times)

Vandemolen

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #165 on: March 07, 2019, 07:14:39 PM »

We hear a lot about supplementing L-Glutamine for leaky gut but that has never worked for me. From the above research article, there are a lot more amino acids required. Glycine, L-Proline, L-Lysine and L-Arginine are required for collagen synthesis.
Interesting article. But why are you taking those amino acids separately? Why not take an amino acid complex?
POIS since 2000. Very bad since 2008. I knew that I have POIS since June 2010. Desensitization since March 2011. I stopped with desens in July 2016. I have 50% less POIS. And only 1 day of POIS. Purified CBD works for me, but I am allergic for CBD.

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #166 on: March 07, 2019, 07:42:46 PM »

We hear a lot about supplementing L-Glutamine for leaky gut but that has never worked for me. From the above research article, there are a lot more amino acids required. Glycine, L-Proline, L-Lysine and L-Arginine are required for collagen synthesis.
Interesting article. But why are you taking those amino acids separately? Why not take an amino acid complex?

I took a full spectrum amino complex already and it made me a lot worse. Perhaps it's because some aminos share the same pathways and compete with eachother. L-Lysine gave me kidney pain, apparently it can elevate oxidative stress in the kidneys and it also competes with L-Arginine.

Here's a link to a chart listing the amino acid composition of mucin (gut mucosa):

http://en.ajinomoto-animalnutrition-emea.com/threonine-gut-health-and-immunity.html

I'll be buying these and trying them all.

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #167 on: March 08, 2019, 01:40:32 PM »
I have had another look at my Amino Acid test results and noticed that the ones I'm deficient in are (according to the below link) many of the same ones that are used to maintain the gut mucosal lining; these include Threonine, Serine, Leucine, Histidine, Methionine. The reference figure for Proline doesn't have a lower limit so I could very well be deficient in that as well.

From what I've read, L-Threonine seems to have the biggest influence on gut mucosal integrity. L-Threonine is not widely sold so I've had to order it from a lesser known brand, I hope it's reasonable quality.

Here's the link with a chart listing the aminos needed for the gut mucosa:
http://en.ajinomoto-animalnutrition-emea.com/threonine-gut-health-and-immunity.html

Here's my amino acid quantitative urine test results:

_URINE AMINO ACIDS QUANTITATION_
Ref Range:
AMINO ACID Result (uM/mM Crea) Reference Range (uM/mM Crea)
~
Phosphoserine 4 Not Detected
Taurine 58 16-180
Phosphoethanolamine 3 Not Detected
Aspartic Acid 2 2-7
Hydroxyproline 1 <13
Threonine *6 7-29
Serine *16 21-50
Asparagine 4 <23
Glutamic Acid 1 <12
Glutamine 20 20-76
Sarcosine 0 Not Detected
Alpha Aminoadipic acid 1 Not Detected
Proline 0 <9
Glycine 46 43-173
Alanine 21 16-68
Citrulline 1 <4
Alpha Aminobutyric 0 <4
Valine 3 3-13
Cystine 3 3-17
Methionine *1 2-16
Isoleucine 1 <4
Leucine *1 2-11
Tyrosine 3 2-23
Phenylalanine 3 2-19
Beta Alanine 2 Not Detected
Beta Aminoisobutyric 2 <91
GABA 0 Not Detected
Ethanolamine 17 Not Detected
Tryptophan 0 Not Detected
Hydroxylysine 0 Not Detected
Ornithine 2 <5
Lysine 7 7-58
1-Methylhistidine 59 Not Detected
Histidine *25 26-153
3-Methylhistidine *14 19-47
Anserine 1 Not Detected
Carnosine 5 Not Detected
Arginine 1 <5
-
Creatinine 1469 mg/l

Vandemolen

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #168 on: March 08, 2019, 05:15:24 PM »
I orderded an amino acid complex. It contains 21 AA including threonine. Even my DAO is very good I will focus for a weeks on gut repair. And after that I will not buy new vitamins. I still have 30 kind of vitamins. I have to take those before the expery date.
POIS since 2000. Very bad since 2008. I knew that I have POIS since June 2010. Desensitization since March 2011. I stopped with desens in July 2016. I have 50% less POIS. And only 1 day of POIS. Purified CBD works for me, but I am allergic for CBD.

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #169 on: March 13, 2019, 12:47:42 PM »
I've had to stop the amino acids due to some worrying kidney pain. I moved on to taking a bovine collagen supplement and that caused pain in my joints which is one of my biggest issues after taking the antibiotics. I am also unable to eat large amounts of cheese or I get pain in my joints and bone spurs develop which I believe comes from inappropriate deposition of calcium.

I've been looking at calcium metabolism and it appears that vitamins D3 and L-Lysine are important for absorbing calcium from food. Once the calcium is in the body, vitamin K2 is needed in order to put the calcium into the bones. A deficiency in K2 can cause calcium to be deposited in bad places like the heart arteries.

I tested practically most of my vitamins a year ago and they were normal except Gamma Tocopherol. However, I did not test vitamin K because I did not have any blood clotting issues and my platelets were normal. I didn't know at the time that vitamin K1 is responsible for blood clotting and platelets BUT vitamin K2 is very different and it controls bone health.

My suspicion is that I have a very severe vitamin K2 deficiency, I've been reading that gut bacteria are one of the main sources of K2. In supplements, a species known as Bacillus Subtilis is used to produce K2 MK7. MK7 is a particular form of K2 that seems to be beneficial, another beneficial form is MK4.

I'm now wondering if the Normaflore probiotic helped me because the Bacillus Clausii bacteria were producing K2 in my gut. I've started taking a vitamin K supplement called "Life Extension Super K" together with a 3000IU vitamin D3 supplement and my skin looks a lot clearer. It may be helping improve the fat loss under my eyes too but I'll need another week before I will know for certain. I have a bone spur on one of my fingers that was caused by eating cheese and that has not improved yet but I've only been taking the K2 for 2 days.

So, it seems like some (maybe all) of my issues are related to calcium metabolism. I downloaded a book from amazon called "THE MIRACULOUS RESULTS OF EXTREMELY HIGH DOSES OF THE SUNSHINE HORMONE VITAMIN D3 MY EXPERIMENT WITH HUGE DOSES OF D3 FROM 25,000 to 50,000 to 100,000 IU A Day OVER A 1 YEAR PERIOD". The book cost me £2 to download and details how one man claims to have fixed a large number of ailments using high doses of vitamins D3 and K2. The basic premise of the book is that early humans used to starve in winter months and when summer came, their bodies produced more D3. This increase in D3 was a signal that food would be more plentiful and therefore the body could start using its vitamin/mineral stores to fix ailments. He thinks that if the body lacks D3, it conserves all resources and basically goes into metabolic hibernation, this may even explain chronic fatigue. D3 is actually a steroid hormone, not a vitamin. Anabolic steroids that bodybuilders use cause muscle gains through the genes that they express. Perhaps D3 is expressing genes that deal with bodily maintenance and repair.

I don't react well to vitamin D3 so I will concentrate on just vitamin K2 for now. I've ordered a powerful Thorne K2 MK4 liquid that I will add to the Life Extension Super K supplement and then see if I get any improvements.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 02:12:16 PM by Simon66 »

b_jim

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #170 on: March 13, 2019, 03:00:59 PM »
Hi,

Quote
I moved on to taking a bovine collagen supplement

Yes, this is my new secrete strategy for 2019  ;D
. But I don't use supplment : I do it myself.
 After talking with a doctor, Bone broth was given to ill people in hospital some years ago.
And miracle : it really helps my stomach problems !

Quote
I believe comes from inappropriate deposition of calcium.

Yes, I think too.
I think positive electrolytes might be pumped after ejaculation/orgasm : magnesium (Mg2+), calcium (Ca2+), Potassium (K+), sodium (Na+).... maybe other one like zinc.. Because my intestine become crazy after ejaculation.
I think we should try to supplement on these electrolytes.




Taurine = Anti-Pois

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #171 on: March 14, 2019, 02:12:30 PM »
I wanted to write a bit more about calcium because I have a few issues that appear to be linked to this mineral.

Firstly, I've had chronic fatigue since around aged 14 when I started puberty. Secondly, I get bone spurs from eating high calcium foods ever since I took a broad spectrum antibiotic. Thirdly, my Osteocalcin and Beta CTx blood tests are abnormal suggesting that my body might be removing abnormal amounts of calcium from my bones.

I've found a chronic fatigue article that might tie all of this together. The link is below, it basically explains that intracellular calcium abnormalities can really mess up the body (hormones, neurotransmitters and mitochondria depend on calcium) and lead to demineralisation of bones as a compensation mechanism. Since my problems got worse after antibiotic use and vitamin K2 is produced by gut bacteria (that were probably wiped out), I am supplementing K1 and several forms of K2 in high doses to see if things improve.

http://www.chronicfatiguediagnosis.com/2018/11/01/intracellular-calcium-and-viruses/

Muon

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #172 on: March 14, 2019, 02:14:16 PM »
What about testing for osteoporosis?

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #173 on: March 14, 2019, 06:51:05 PM »
What about testing for osteoporosis?

My problems are a lot more serious than osteoperosis, my body can't tolerate calcium supplements or foods. Doctors are not interested in treating my issues so I have no interest in pursuing an osteoperosis diagnosis, it's not going to help me. They'll just tell me to take calcium and get mental treatment for the other symptoms. I still have a lot of anger at how I was treated by doctors, it's not worth my time anymore. I am my own doctor.

If a test comes out for this new calcium impairment theory of chronic fatigue syndrome, I'll be happy to pursue that diagnosis.

Muon

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #174 on: March 15, 2019, 11:14:14 AM »
Yes your problem is more serious than osteoporosis but I think you are missing my point. Osteoporosis might tell us something about the underlying problem. It's about collecting all the pieces of the puzzle even if it seems irrelevant, it's about objectifying and mapping the problem.

kingfisher

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #175 on: March 15, 2019, 01:06:35 PM »
Simon,

Total calcium levels in blood in my case is usually normal, but ionized calcium in my blood is sometimes low but at other times it is normal.

However when I did a hair test analysis , on each occasion it was found that I had high intracellular calcium levels in the cells of my hair.

Here is a much older article on the effects of viruses on intracellular calcium from a hair trace minerals expert:
https://www.traceelements.com/Docs/News%20Nov-Dec%2089.pdf

« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 01:28:48 PM by kingfisher »

Muon

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #176 on: March 15, 2019, 01:51:30 PM »
Elevated intracellular calcium levels could have something to do with Voltage-gated calcium channels:

''VGCCs have been immunolocalized in the zona glomerulosa of normal and hyperplastic human adrenal, as well as in aldosterone-producing adenomas (APA), and in the latter T-type VGCCs correlated with plasma aldosterone levels of patients.[5] Excessive activation of VGCCs is a major component of excitotoxicity, as severely elevated levels of intracellular calcium activates enzymes which, at high enough levels, can degrade essential cellular structures.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage-gated_calcium_channel

I wonder if spasms by POIS are due to changing intracellular calcium levels. Perhaps this is a different discussion about voltage-gated ion channels. There is a thread about that on poiscenter I believe.

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #177 on: March 15, 2019, 02:17:26 PM »
Simon,

Total calcium levels in blood in my case is usually normal, but ionized calcium in my blood is sometimes low but at other times it is normal.

However when I did a hair test analysis , on each occasion it was found that I had high intracellular calcium levels in the cells of my hair.

Here is a much older article on the effects of viruses on intracellular calcium from a hair trace minerals expert:
https://www.traceelements.com/Docs/News%20Nov-Dec%2089.pdf

I did a hair analysis over a year ago, the only significant thing was elevated Zirconium and Aluminium from deodorant use. Part of the chronic fatigue calcium theory is that viruses can interfere with intracellular calcium but I wasn't able to find any evidence of activated viruses. My problems all got massively worse after taking Fluoroquinolone antibiotics so I am leaning towards the gut as being the source of this calcium dysfunction. Perhaps I have some kind of vitamin, mineral or amino acid malabsorption.

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #178 on: March 15, 2019, 02:35:15 PM »
Yes your problem is more serious than osteoporosis but I think you are missing my point. Osteoporosis might tell us something about the underlying problem. It's about collecting all the pieces of the puzzle even if it seems irrelevant, it's about objectifying and mapping the problem.

I appreciate what you're saying, I'm just not interested in pursuing that avenue right now. The osteocalcin and beta-CTx are good enough indicators for me that there is a metabolic bone issue but I think it's part of a much bigger metabolic problem.

Elevated intracellular calcium levels could have something to do with Voltage-gated calcium channels:

''VGCCs have been immunolocalized in the zona glomerulosa of normal and hyperplastic human adrenal, as well as in aldosterone-producing adenomas (APA), and in the latter T-type VGCCs correlated with plasma aldosterone levels of patients.[5] Excessive activation of VGCCs is a major component of excitotoxicity, as severely elevated levels of intracellular calcium activates enzymes which, at high enough levels, can degrade essential cellular structures.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage-gated_calcium_channel

I wonder if spasms by POIS are due to changing intracellular calcium levels. Perhaps this is a different discussion about voltage-gated ion channels. There is a thread about that on poiscenter I believe.

Yeah, I do wonder about muscle spasms and burning sensations, I think they could be related to a calcium/magnesium balance or perhaps ATP. The question for me is why having taken the Fluoroquinolone antibiotic has everything gotten much, much worse? People claim that this class of antibiotics are mitotoxic so my mitochondria are now dysfunctional. There is a website for people that claim to have recovered from such adverse reactions, some of the stories are interesting. These 2 interest me a lot:

https://floxiehope.com/marks-recovery-story-fluoroquinolone-toxicity/
https://floxiehope.com/james-recovery-story-cipro-toxicity/

I know moderate exercise changes the gut flora to become more anti-inflammatory and it is also supposed to have an effect on the mitochondria as well. I may just give up on supplements and pursue cycling as a potential cure. I think getting a sun tan is also beneficial, I lived near the equator for a few years when I was younger and my health was great. I also visited Florida about 10 years ago, I got a strong sun tan and just felt a lot better.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 02:50:01 PM by Simon66 »

Vandemolen

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #179 on: March 15, 2019, 06:49:44 PM »
I wonder if antibiotics toxicity is causing my hot flushes. I have them without POIS for 5 months now. Before I only would get it when I almost finished the 3 weeks of antibiotics. Back then I would only be sick for 2 or 3 days. Before my sickness 5 months ago I took 3 types of antibiotics. I stopped Minocycline after a few days, then I took co-trim for a few days. And then 3 weeks of cefuroxim. I took 3 because I got itchy by all 3 of them.

Here they say you can get flushes and warm skin from cefuroxime. But I stopped taking it for 4 months now.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/cefuroxime-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20073295
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 06:57:20 PM by Vandemolen »
POIS since 2000. Very bad since 2008. I knew that I have POIS since June 2010. Desensitization since March 2011. I stopped with desens in July 2016. I have 50% less POIS. And only 1 day of POIS. Purified CBD works for me, but I am allergic for CBD.