Developed POIS after antibiotic use

[Simon66]

Simon, how much time was there between your last orgasm prior to the IL-10 test and the blood collection for the IL-10 test?

About 2 weeks. To be quite honest, I'm not sure my condition is like most people's here, an orgasm doesn't always make things worse. The problems only really happen if I have more than 2 O's in a week, it's a cumulative type.

I've just started taking a high dose B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 1000 microgram tablet, I took 2 tablets today (2000 micrograms). I've been reading that the high-dose tablets can actually be more effective than B12 injections. I was previously taking a B12 methylcobalamin sublingual tablet but that didn't seem to help.

It does feel like the B12 tablets have improved my tinnitus but my legs still burn. From what I've read, it can take a month before the B12 supplementation produces noticeable results so I will wait and see what is fixed after 1 month on these B12 tablets.

From my blood test results, you may remember that my thyroid was a little underactive as well. The TSH was elevated but there was no sign of any autoimmune antibodies. A few years ago, when I was trying to find out why the TSH was so high, I was talking to someone else online that had similar results and he said that he had low B12. He also said he had some sexual impotence which I do not have problems with, he was looking at testosterone. B vitamin deficiencies can cause low testosterone.

Anyway, I've long suspected that these gut issues cause severe vitamin and mineral deficiencies. I think B12 is a big issue for me but I am also wondering about other nutrients used for metabolic processes and thyroid hormone production. This is the next product I am thinking about ordering:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Supplements-INGREDIENTS-L-Tyrosine-supporting-SUPPLEMENTSYOU/dp/B00XW3U1ZQ/id

[Simon66]

I found out today there's a name for the condition of gut bacteria that produce harmful substances like LPS, it is called "Endotoxemia":

https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2018/04/30/what-is-metabolic-endotoxemia-a-toxic-overload-from-within/

I am looking at Nitric Oxide (a form of nitro-oxidative stress) as being the main damaging product of this gut imbalance.

I am experimenting with supplements that scavenge these harmful Nitric Oxide free radicals. My main candidates for suppressing the damage are Vitamin C (with Bioflavonoids), Beta-Carotene, L-Lysine, Vitamin B12 (only suppresses Nitric Oxide in 2 forms; Cyanocobalamin and Hydroxycobalamin), Vitamin E (specifically the powerful Gamma-Tocopherol form) & possibly vitamin D3.

Once I get the oxidative stress under control with the above antioxidants, I can hopefully start rebuilding my gut with probiotics without getting horrible symptoms.

[Simon66]

As a further update, I've learnt of a professor named Martin Pall who believes conditions like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia & Tinnitus can all come from a common condition of excess Nitrosative Stress. I am heavily deficient in Gamma-Tocopherol which is needed to fight Nitrosative Stress so that's why I've been looking at this area.

Here's the article:
https://www.verywellhealth.com/pall-protocol-for-treating-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-716080

Here's a presentation with more information:
http://www.drmarcochover.com/ponencia2011/archivos/pall.pdf

If you look at people in the B12 deficiency forums and Facebook groups, a lot of them complain about having high levels of B12 in their blood (due to supplementation) but not getting relief from their symptoms unless they take B12 injections more frequently than their doctor prescribes. There are also people that don't respond well to certain forms of B12 and I wonder if that's because only Hydroxocobalamin (and to a lesser extent Cyanocobalamin) are effective antioxidants against Nitrosative stress.

I've been testing Gamma-Tocopherol (also fights Nitrosative stress) for 1 day so far, it's certainly not an instant fix if it's even doing anything at all. I'll probably try the Gamma-Tocopherol for a week and then move on to the Hydroxocobalamin.

[demografx]

Interesting, Simon.

[Muon]

Some people think a lack of choline or defects in choline metabolism play a role in POIS. Some speculate involvement of the microbiome. Here is an article in which patients alter their microbiome by dietary choline intake:
Association Between Composition of the Human Gastrointestinal Microbiome and Development of Fatty Liver With Choline Deficiency

They mention two species, you could take a look at those. Just an idea since you are into this subject.
''Variations between subjects in levels of Gammaproteobacteria and Erysipelotrichi were directly associated with changes in liver fat in each subject during choline depletion.''

[Simon66]

Some people think a lack of choline or defects in choline metabolism play a role in POIS. Some speculate involvement of the microbiome. Here is an article in which patients alter their microbiome by dietary choline intake:
Association Between Composition of the Human Gastrointestinal Microbiome and Development of Fatty Liver With Choline Deficiency

They mention two species, you could take a look at those. Just an idea since you are into this subject.
''Variations between subjects in levels of Gammaproteobacteria and Erysipelotrichi were directly associated with changes in liver fat in each subject during choline depletion.''

Thanks.

Have you tried a probiotic marketed by Sanofi in Europe under the names "Enterogermina" and "Normaflore"? I think it is improving my health issues greatly, it is used to rebalance gut bacteria as it produces it's own antibiotics to kill bad bacteria. It is one of the world's oldest probiotics, it contains 4 strains of Bacillus Clausii suspended in liquid vials. Here's some research about one of the antibiotics this probiotic produces to control harmful endotoxic bacteria.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19720027

I'm fairly sure at this point that a lot of my problems are to do with a gut imbalance. I bought the Normaflore off ebay and I must warn anyone reading that I had some kind of herx when I first took it, I had to start with just 1 drop of the liquid daily and I am gradually increasing it. I'll try and work up to a full 1 vial daily and then provide an update here. I am able to have an O more frequently now without triggering bad symptoms and my tolerance for foods has improved. I also posted about a month ago that I was seeing an improvement in fat loss under my eyes. I now think that Normaflore was the cause of the improvement and no other probiotic that I've taken has caused such improvements so I must assume that Normaflore/Enterogermina is a fairly unique product in the probiotic market.

[Hopeoneday]

Intresting, inhibit toxicity forming bacteria in guts...
This is worth to try.
Cant find it in my country.

[Simon66]

Intresting, inhibit toxicity forming bacteria in guts...
This is worth to try.
Cant find it in my country.

It's not even sold in the UK or US, I had to get mine off Ebay. I got the Normaflore version which they sell in Hungary.

I am also trying some cofactors, I think the Normaflore/Enterogermina may work synergistically with B. Longum BB536. Perhaps Normaflore kills the bad bacteria and the BB536 fills the space. I'm not sure about the connection yet though, I am still figuring things out.

[Hopeoneday]

https://aac.asm.org/content/60/6/3445

[Simon66]

https://aac.asm.org/content/60/6/3445

Thanks, that's the one I was looking for earlier, it talks about how the probiotic produces a natural antimicrobial called Clausin.

Here's one that talks about fixing vitamin deficiencies caused by gut imbalances:

https://www.sanofi.in/-/media/Project/One-Sanofi-Web/Websites/Asia-Pacific/Sanofi-IN/Home/science-and-innovation/for-healthcare-professionals/product-information/Enterogermina-Caps-PI-June-2018.pdf

One thing I forgot to mention is that there are different Enterogermina products so be careful if you do buy it.

[Simon66]

I've been reading about probiotics and there is some research about Bacteroides probiotics being the next innovation. These bacteria, which make up a large proportion of the gut, are said to improve autism-like symptoms in mice and improve mood disorders amongst other things.

I wonder if I actually need this type of bacteria. It would explain why I don't respond well to lactobacillus and bifidobacteria.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0963996918307051

[Iwillbeatthis]

Ok that sounds very promising are there any Bacteroides on the market yet?

[Simon66]

Ok that sounds very promising are there any Bacteroides on the market yet?

I don't think so but there are ways to boost the existing bacteroides in your gut. I haven't done much reading but some sources suggest goat's cheese or soy protein can be used to increase the bacteroides bacteria.

[Simon66]

You might also be interested in trying S. Boulardii, it's a fairly unique probiotic. It's a yeast whereas most probiotics are bacteria.

From some of the reviews and other postings that I've read, some people seem to do well when taking large doses. I'm not sure if that's a good idea consuming so much yeast but it's interesting. Here's one such post:

http://forum.dryeyezone.com/forum/community-resources/our-dry-eye-stories/16205-dry-eyes-digestive-problems-and-probiotics

[Hopeoneday]

Tested bulardy before 4 moonth ago, for me this probitic is useles for pois.
Maybe wil work for somewone else, who knows.

[Simon66]

Tested bulardy before 4 moonth ago, for me this probitic is useles for pois.
Maybe wil work for somewone else, who knows.

Yeah, it's difficult to find something that fixes all symptoms. I find some probiotics that help one symptom can then worsen other symptoms.

I am still considering having FMT done at the Taymount Clinic but I really don't like the procedure. If I exhaust all of my options, maybe I'll get desperate enough to do it.

[Simon66]

Found this really useful research article:
http://www.ijpsr.info/docs/IJPSR15-06-07-101.pdf

I'll summarise it as follows:
- The best probiotics are thought to be those that produce antimicrobial substances that balance the gut and kill the bad guys.
- The author compared the antimicrobial ability of S. Boulardii and B. Clausii (Normaflore/Enterogermina) probiotics against an antibiotic. The results were comparable but dependent on the dose of probiotics.
- The S. Boulardii and Enterogermina had different effects on different bacteria so it is likely better to take both at the same time to get a broad antimicrobial effect.
- The effectiveness of these probiotics depends on the dose. Lower doses had no effect in some cases.
- The author sees no reason why these 2 probiotics cannot be taken daily for the rest of your life.

I guess the biggest piece of information for me is that I need to find more of these antimicrobial probiotics. All of us will have different bad bacteria in our guts so probiotics will have differing effects. S. Boulardii and B. Clausii seem to be good ones to start with.

[Iwillbeatthis]

So I have tried normalflore for a week now and the first two days seemed to be the most successful where I was taking two drops with each meal it felt similar to an SSRI it was strange. After that I was increasing the dosage and it seemed the more I took the more disconnected with reality I felt. I also started to get a strong pain and stiffness when i bend my back and I am pretty certain its from the normalflore although theres a slight possibility it could be from yoga.

I have finally finished the first vial now and started a new one today and I already feel a big difference with the new one. Maybe the longer it is exposed to air the less effective it comes so now I am sealing it with cling film. I have read that it is fine to keep them at room temperature but what do you think about putting vials in the fridge?

I'm also thinking about buying the multivitamin you mentioned to see if it makes it more effective as right now I'm not feeling much.

[Simon66]

So I have tried normalflore for a week now and the first two days seemed to be the most successful where I was taking two drops with each meal it felt similar to an SSRI it was strange. After that I was increasing the dosage and it seemed the more I took the more disconnected with reality I felt. I also started to get a strong pain and stiffness when i bend my back and I am pretty certain its from the normalflore although theres a slight possibility it could be from yoga.

I have finally finished the first vial now and started a new one today and I already feel a big difference with the new one. Maybe the longer it is exposed to air the less effective it comes so now I am sealing it with cling film. I have read that it is fine to keep them at room temperature but what do you think about putting vials in the fridge?

I'm also thinking about buying the multivitamin you mentioned to see if it makes it more effective as right now I'm not feeling much.

Yeah, I cover mine with cling film. They recommend you use the vial immediately after opening so perhaps it does degrade very quickly. It just seems a shame to throw away most of the vial but I guess it's not too expensive. I can only tolerate one or two drops daily so it's not going to be the cure for me. Not sure about refrigeration having any benefit, the bacteria are happy at room temperature.

You can try the multivitamin if you want, I've been trying to pin down the ingredient(s) in it that seems to help. It contains vitamins, fruit & vegetable extracts and sweeteners like sorbitol and stevial glycosides. I bought some Sorbitol and Xylitol, they are what's called "sugar alcohols" and if you remember, I mentioned previously that Normaflore bacteria like to consume Sorbitol and Xylitol in particular as seen in this research article:
https://mic.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/10.1099/13500872-141-7-1745

I've started reading into sugar alcohols (they aren't alcoholic but they just resemble the molecular structure of ethanol). I found out that there is one called mannitol which is found in sweet potatoes and mushrooms, so I'm wondering if mannitol is the reason for my ability to eat unlimited sweet potatoes and pretty much no other forms of carbohydrates. Mannitol is being used to treat Parkinson's disease currently and I believe Parkinson's starts in the gut from dysbiosis.

These sugar alcohols have the ability to kill bacteria and also have a prebiotic effect, Xylitol can kill harmful forms of Streptococcus bacteria and thus change the microbiome of the mouth and gut. I've just started taking Xylitol and it has possibly had an impact on my symptoms, I'll know for certain when I gradually up the dose over the coming days. The sorbitol seemed to have less of a positive impact, whether that's because of the product quality I don't know, it's hard to find sorbitol and the one I bought doesn't say anything about where it was manufactured or the purity.

Finally, I continue to take 1 drop of normaflore daily. I have ordered some Mannitol powder and another sugar alcohol called Erythritol. I will be testing a number of these sugar alcohols and will provide an update.

[Simon66]

I seem to be doing pretty well with Xylitol, it gives me a lot more energy and a better mood. When I first started it, I kept getting a burning smell in my left nostril. I have had recurrent sinusitis in my left sinus for years and I have just learnt that Xylitol is used to remove Streptococcus pneumoniae biofilms from the sinuses, there's even a commercial product called "Xlear" although all you really need to buy is Xylitol, mix it with some water and put it in a nasal squeezy bottle. I guess the burning smell was the Xylitol acting on the bacteria which is fascinating because I only swallowed the Xylitol, I didn't put any up my nose. The burning smell stopped after a day or two which is encouraging and I continue to increase the dose of Xylitol, I am taking about a third of a teaspoon every 1 or 2 hours and gradually upping the dose further. From what I've read, the Xylitol needs to be taken very regularly throughout the day otherwise the bacteria have time to recover.

I've ordered some Stevia extract as well. Note that stevia extract (also known as RebA) is a pure form of Stevia, I wouldn't bother with the Stevia found in supermarkets as they are around 2% stevia extract mixed with other sweeteners. Both Stevia Extract and Xylitol are supposed to destroy biofilms but from what I've read, Xylitol seems more effective. Also beware that eating sugars like Fructose feeds bad bacteria and effectively negates the work that Xylitol is doing so it is important to limit intake of sugars during this protocol.

Some people think that Xylitol is only good for attacking biofilms and that something else is needed to deal with the underlying bacteria once the biofilm defences are damaged. I continue to take Normaflore and have started adding some BB536 as well. I will add the Stevia Extract in the coming days. Here's a couple links to people discussing Xylitol, Stevia Extract and biofilms:

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3795451
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3307432

Whether the issue is biofilms or just some kind of systemic Streptococcus pneumoniae infection, Xylitol should hopefully take care of it.