Developed POIS after antibiotic use

[Hopeoneday]

Simon i agree with you in a lot of stuff you say.
Yeah, diagnsed myself SIBO (small intesine bloated, lowering my life quality in big) , sibo can cosue guts disbiosis an that lead to dysbiosis, leaky gut...
an those leke guts lead to cronic inflamation in body and autoimunity.
As you mention when kurtosis did walking on earth( i mean in kurtosis times),
this stuff is mention a lot, like b vitamins- https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.msg7846#msg7846

Conected this with diferent mutations that we hawe mentioned here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.15
Hiden active cronic infection could be couse of all this.
Some infetions can mimic (cheated our imune system)...
Some can hide, an go in cyst form when you atac them with
antibiotic.

From all this -imunocompromised, imune system in alert state(my opinion
that ours imunity reacting on proteins that shouldn,t be ataced by him), becuse
of that posible reaction on our sperm,   body in cronic inflamation,
that lead to MCAS , i men mc go wild on things that shoulnd be in  helty people.
Then we are in loop, vicios cycle- Posible cronic infection(Hiden), cronic inflamation(from sibo, leaky gut), imune go wild from that, MCAS from that,
big amount of histamine an odhers inflamatory mesingers(imunity ewan wilder),
put in this mutations we hawe to recycles histamine( we cant recaycle),
and you hawe pois from this!


Cronic infections ) SIBO ) leky gut ) gut dysbiosis ) cronic inflamation )
imunocompromised )autoimunity ) MCAS )
cant clear histamine genetics ) hi histamine )
histamine intolerance )  POIS


- imunity wild from all this-
racting on proteins, like our sperms , reacting on our nerwes (atacing our
nerwes in brain to and body), Mc reacting in our brains(hi histamine and cytokines...and disturbing work of our glands in brain like HPA axis...
Put stres from all this, and put stres from ordinary modern life an you hawe
))))) pois.

[Simon66]

Simon i agree with you in a lot of stuff you say.
Yeah, diagnsed myself SIBO (small intesine bloated, lowering my life quality in big) , sibo can cosue guts disbiosis an that lead to dysbiosis, leaky gut...
an those leke guts lead to cronic inflamation in body and autoimunity.
As you mention when kurtosis did walking on earth( i mean in kurtosis times),
this stuff is mention a lot, like b vitamins- https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.msg7846#msg7846

Conected this with diferent mutations that we hawe mentioned here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.15
Hiden active cronic infection could be couse of all this.
Some infetions can mimic (cheated our imune system)...
Some can hide, an go in cyst form when you atac them with
antibiotic.

From all this -imunocompromised, imune system in alert state(my opinion
that ours imunity reacting on proteins that shouldn,t be ataced by him), becuse
of that posible reaction on our sperm,   body in cronic inflamation,
that lead to MCAS , i men mc go wild on things that shoulnd be in  helty people.
Then we are in loop, vicios cycle- Posible cronic infection(Hiden), cronic inflamation(from sibo, leaky gut), imune go wild from that, MCAS from that,
big amount of histamine an odhers inflamatory mesingers(imunity ewan wilder),
put in this mutations we hawe to recycles histamine( we cant recaycle),
and you hawe pois from this!

Cronic infections ) leky gut ) gut dysbiosis ) MCAS )
cant clear histamine genetics ) hi histamine )
histamine intolerance )  POIS-cronic fatigue etc...

- imunity wild from all this-
racting on proteins, like our sperms , reacting on our nerwes (atacing our
nerwes in brain to and body), Mc reacting in our brains(hi histamine and cytokines...and disturbing work of our glands in brain like HPA axis...
Put stres from all this, and put stres from ordinary modern life an you hawe
))))) pois.

Yeah, the gut ecosystem causes a lot of problems when it is damaged and unbalanced. I am waiting for FMT pills to be offered, they are limited to CDiff infections currently:
https://www.openbiome.org/press-releases/2015/10/28/fecal-transplant-pills-large-scale-production-begins-following-successful-dosing-study

This is a really useful post about the B-Complex method including posts by Kurtosis:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1059.msg9571

The last post by Kurtosis suggested he had cured himself by fixing his SIBO. He still continued taking a multivitamin and some other stuff:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1461.msg13620

[demografx]

Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

[Hopeoneday]

Simon i agree with you in a lot of stuff you say.
Yeah, diagnsed myself SIBO (small intesine bloated, lowering my life quality in big) , sibo can cosue guts disbiosis an that lead to dysbiosis, leaky gut...
an those leke guts lead to cronic inflamation in body and autoimunity.
As you mention when kurtosis did walking on earth( i mean in kurtosis times),
this stuff is mention a lot, like b vitamins- https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.msg7846#msg7846

Conected this with diferent mutations that we hawe mentioned here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.15
Hiden active cronic infection could be couse of all this.
Some infetions can mimic (cheated our imune system)...
Some can hide, an go in cyst form when you atac them with
antibiotic.

From all this -imunocompromised, imune system in alert state(my opinion
that ours imunity reacting on proteins that shouldn,t be ataced by him), becuse
of that posible reaction on our sperm,   body in cronic inflamation,
that lead to MCAS , i men mc go wild on things that shoulnd be in  helty people.
Then we are in loop, vicios cycle- Posible cronic infection(Hiden), cronic inflamation(from sibo, leaky gut), imune go wild from that, MCAS from that,
big amount of histamine an odhers inflamatory mesingers(imunity ewan wilder),
put in this mutations we hawe to recycles histamine( we cant recaycle),
and you hawe pois from this!

- imunity wild from all this-
racting on proteins, like our sperms , reacting on our nerwes (atacing our
nerwes in brain to and body), Mc reacting in our brains(hi histamine and cytokines...and disturbing work of our glands in brain like HPA axis...
Put stres from all this, and put stres from ordinary modern life an you hawe
))))) pois.

Cronic infections ) SIBO )leky gut ) gut dysbiosis ) cronic inflamation )
imunocompromised )autoimunity ) MCAS )
cant clear histamine genetics ) hi histamine )
histamine intolerance )  POIS

I think that here somwere  root couse or non root couse of pois is hiding.

Forget to mention that about b12 etc, in sibo bacteria is fedeng with
b12 ...

POIS expleined , close the  forum     

[Vandemolen]

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

[Simon66]

Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

No problem.

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

B12 is a difficult vitamin. If the stomach is damaged then you may not be able to absorb enough through pills. If you want to spend the money to check your B12 properly, there are 4 useful blood tests: Homocysteine, Methylmalonic Acid, Parietal Cell Antibodies, Intrinsic Factor Antibodies.

[Simon66]

As HopeOneDay and Muon have said, there is another component to dysbiosis relating to inflammation. LPS is one example:
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/lipopolysaccharides/

There are a number of supplements to try including: Ginger Root Powder, Resveratrol, Omega 3, Tumeric with black pepper.

I found this useful quote about ginger root, it suggests gut inflammation can be the cause of nutrient deficiencies:

"Ginger has classically been used to improve the digestion process. Nine different substances have been found that stimulate serotonin receptors in the gut which provides benefits to the gastrointestinal system. This reduces gut related inflammation and enhances nutrient absorption."

Source: https://drjockers.com/10-ways-ginger-improves-digestion/

To summarise my progress so far:
- Different probiotics have not done a great deal as my body reacts badly to anything above a fraction of a teaspoon.
- A prebiotic called Bimuno helped when symptoms were at their worst but doesn't do much when symptoms are lessened.
- Taking an "Alive! Child's Multivitamin" has improved things further, it doesn't contain calcium like other products, which is a good thing. I take 2 a day currently.
- Cod liver oil seems to be a mild anti-inflammatory but can irritate the gut, not sure about taking it any further.
- An activated B Complex seemed to do more harm than good, I think it triggers inflammation.
- B12 sublinguals did not have any dramatic effect, may have helped but not enough.

So, my search moves on to natural anti-inflammatories. I will be starting with Ginger Root, this is both an anti-inflammatory and an anti-microbial, it can hopefully reduce any imbalance in my gut leading to lower inflammation and greater nutrient absorption. If the ginger fails, I will try Tumeric with added black pepper.

[Vandemolen]

Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

No problem.

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

B12 is a difficult vitamin. If the stomach is damaged then you may not be able to absorb enough through pills. If you want to spend the money to check your B12 properly, there are 4 useful blood tests: Homocysteine, Methylmalonic Acid, Parietal Cell Antibodies, Intrinsic Factor Antibodies.

I am only checked on normal vitamine b12. I read on a Dutch webiste for people with a b12 problem which test you have to do. My hospital does all the 4 tests so it will be covered by my insurrance. I will ask my doctor if he prescribe me those tests. I have a family member who has a b12 problem. He uses injections.

The problem with ginger is that it has high histamine. I used to eat it it a few weeks ago for my candida. But I stopped because my histamine problem is bigger than my candida problem. Althought those two maybe are connected.

[Simon66]

Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

No problem.

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

B12 is a difficult vitamin. If the stomach is damaged then you may not be able to absorb enough through pills. If you want to spend the money to check your B12 properly, there are 4 useful blood tests: Homocysteine, Methylmalonic Acid, Parietal Cell Antibodies, Intrinsic Factor Antibodies.

I am only checked on normal vitamine b12. I read on a Dutch webiste for people with a b12 problem which test you have to do. My hospital does all the 4 tests so it will be covered by my insurrance. I will ask my doctor if he prescribe me those tests. I have a family member who has a b12 problem. He uses injections.

The problem with ginger is that it has high histamine. I used to eat it it a few weeks ago for my candida. But I stopped because my histamine problem is bigger than my candida problem. Althought those two maybe are connected.

That's interesting about the ginger having histamine, some people say it is anti-histamine. I'll have to try it and see what reaction I get.

Something to be aware of when taking blood tests is that taking supplements can mess with the result, taking Vitamin B7 (Biotin) seems to break thyroid tests. It is best to stop all supplements 2 weeks before having any blood test.

[Vandemolen]

Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

No problem.

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

B12 is a difficult vitamin. If the stomach is damaged then you may not be able to absorb enough through pills. If you want to spend the money to check your B12 properly, there are 4 useful blood tests: Homocysteine, Methylmalonic Acid, Parietal Cell Antibodies, Intrinsic Factor Antibodies.

I am only checked on normal vitamine b12. I read on a Dutch webiste for people with a b12 problem which test you have to do. My hospital does all the 4 tests so it will be covered by my insurrance. I will ask my doctor if he prescribe me those tests. I have a family member who has a b12 problem. He uses injections.

The problem with ginger is that it has high histamine. I used to eat it it a few weeks ago for my candida. But I stopped because my histamine problem is bigger than my candida problem. Althought those two maybe are connected.

That's interesting about the ginger having histamine, some people say it is anti-histamine. I'll have to try it and see what reaction I get.

Something to be aware of when taking blood tests is that taking supplements can mess with the result, taking Vitamin B7 (Biotin) seems to break thyroid tests. It is best to stop all supplements 2 weeks before having any blood test.

Yes maybe the last time I only stopped taking vitamin b12 a day before the blood test. Maybe a b12 problem causes my urticaria.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15736714

I do not know if there is a link between b12 and POIS. But I believe that if you are feeling better outside POIS your POIS symptoms will also be less worse. If beside POIS you are healthy you can take more.

[Simon66]

Yes maybe the last time I only stopped taking vitamin b12 a day before the blood test. Maybe a b12 problem causes my urticaria.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15736714

I do not know if there is a link between b12 and POIS. But I believe that if you are feeling better outside POIS your POIS symptoms will also be less worse. If beside POIS you are healthy you can take more.

I think the link between nutrient deficiencies and POIS is a seriously imbalanced gut. At one point when my symptoms were very bad, I developed arthritic pain in my fingers and for months afterwards I had ridges on my finger nails suggesting a nutrient deficiency. There must be a link between inflammation and nutrient deficiencies.

I was reading the posts on another forum by someone calling themselves "akt1", they too believe the source of these issues is in the gut. Interestingly, this person has tried many things including an activated B Complex but they seem to have settled on Ginger Root as the best supplement to reduce/eliminate symptoms, they also use some Hemp. Here's a link to their posts:

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1svllr32vumctdkc4rb8mmlo06&action=profile;area=showposts;u=40634

I will hopefully be trying Ginger tomorrow.

[Simon66]

So, I've now tested Ginger and also Tumeric with Black Pepper. They didn't seem to have any significant beneficial effects and I think the Turmeric may have made things worse.

The only thing that I think has really helped me is a child's multivitamin called "Alive! Children's Multi-Vitamin and Minerals". In addition to the vitamins/minerals, it contains some fruit/vegetable extracts and citrus bioflavonoids. I react badly to an activated B Complex and don't feel like other multivitamins help me so I am assuming the bioflavonoids and fruit extracts in this product are what is helping me.

Here's a really information link about Bioflavonoids, they are basically very strong antioxidants and can do things like reduce histamine:
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/ABSTRACTS/bioflavonoids.shtml

Those that have read my medical results post will have seen that I have high levels of an enzyme called Superoxide Dismutase which indicates high oxidative stress & inflammation. Here's the link to my results post:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995#msg24995

I'm really hoping it is the Bioflavonoids in the multivitamin that has improved my symptoms because I have ordered a load of polyphenol/flavonoid supplements including Quercetin (with Bromelain), Red Wine Grape Extract, Trans-Resveratrol, Grape Seed Extract, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Citrus Bioflavonoids & Pycnogenol (Pine Bark Extract).

It will take me a while to work through these supplements but feel free to chime in if you have any questions. My working theory of POIS is that it is gut dysbiosis, an overgrowth of gram-negative bacteria which produce too much lipopolysaccharides (LPS) which then causes oxidative stress, vitamin malabsorption and probably mitochondrial dysfunction as well. The solution should be finding the right antioxidants. I had a bad reaction to NAC and Glutathione a year ago so my focus is on natural plant-based antioxidants.

One final thing to be aware of is that some supplements (like green tea extract) can be harmful, it is worth monitoring your liver enzymes and kidney function or else you can end up with organ failure like this poor person:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45971416

[Muon]

I get sick from vit B complex as well. Flavonoids are natural mast cell stabilizers. We have covered this extensively on this forum. Use the search bar to look for discussions about mast cell activation disorders and flavonoids.

[Simon66]

I get sick from vit B complex as well. Flavonoids are natural mast cell stabilizers. We have covered this extensively on this forum. Use the search bar to look for discussions about mast cell activation disorders and flavonoids.

What's your experience with supplements Muon? Anything give you significant improvements? Flavonoids perhaps.

[Muon]

What's your experience with supplements Muon? Anything give you significant improvements? Flavonoids perhaps.

Some slight improvements with taurine and vitamin D but not very significant. I haven't tinkered with the flavonoids yet. Tried all kinds of supplements, nothing seems to give any significant effect. Some symptoms improved over the years, the only thing I did over these years was adjusting my diet but it could be a wax and wane behaviour as well. I've got a whole list of medication I want to try like pyridostigmine, selective beta2 blockers, TLR2/4 blockers, High dose purified CBD, losartan, Neuroprotek, all kinds of diets etc.. I can start with those or continue with blood tests. I'm thinking about doing the latter and don't want medicine to interfere with the tests.

[Simon66]

I found a big coincidence today, 2 different supplements that I was taking for vitamins/minerals actually contain polyphenols and that may be the reason they helped me instead of the vitamin/mineral content. I already talked about the multivitamin that had citrus bioflavonoids and some vegetable/fruit extracts but in my pursuit to fix my dry eyes, I went searching for an Omega 3 supplement.

Over the Christmas period, I have been experimenting with Omega 3 because part of my symptoms are very dry eyes. I took a high dose Omega 3 supplement called "Vegepa" which seemed to help the dry eyes but it caused me worrying gut pain and possibly some blurry vision. I then switched to another form of Omega 3 called Flaxseed Oil which my gut tolerated, however it produced a delayed strong histamine reaction that lasted for hours.

The benefits I've had from Cod liver oil and flaxseed are very good. They improve my dry eyes and interestingly at least one of them also seems to build the missing fat padding under my eyes and in my hands/feet. I woke up one morning after switching to the flaxseed and there was a very noticeable lump of fat under the skin on my cheekbone and it has gradually spread out into the area where I was missing fat and the underlying blue veins were previously very visible. I guess the loss of fat under the skin is from some kind of oxidative stress damage much like it can damage collagen, it also does something to lipids like a lipodystrophy.

I was taking a few things at the time and didn't know for certain what had caused the fat deposition so I ended up stopping the flaxseed because the histamine reactions were annoying me.

Fast-forward a week, the fat under my eyes has stopped improving and I feel like I've lost some of my recent progress. I started researching flaxseeds which I had originally bought for the Omega 3 and I read that flaxseed is a powerful "Lignan". I read the following article and found out that Lignans are a class of Polyphenol alongside the Flavonoids which I previously wrote about over the last couple days.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/12/14/polyphenols-benefits.aspx

So...I'm very hopeful that Polyphenols are going to be the cure for me. The lignan (flaxseed) effects are different to the flavonoids though so I guess I need to supplement something from each class of polyphenol.

[Simon66]

It's been a couple weeks since my last post and I made a mistake in saying that the flaxseed helped. I started taking the flaxseed again but wasn't seeing any improvement in the fat loss under my eyes so I had to go back and look at my food & symptom diary.

A day before originally starting the flaxseed, I took a probiotic called "BB536" which is a strain of Bifidobacterium Longum. I have started taking the BB536 again recently and within 2 days of the first dose, it appears that the fat loss under my eyes is again improving so there is a little lag time between taking it and seeing physical improvements. BB536 has a reputation for boosting other beneficial bacteria so I am hopeful that there will be further improvements. I am also taking a prebiotic called Bimuno with the BB536 to make sure my new bacteria are fed well.

I will provide another update in future when I have tested the BB536 over a period of a few weeks. I still suspect that some of my issues (like the tinnitus) are from a B12 deficiency, I have no desire to self-inject B12 yet.

[Limejuice]

Hi Simon,

I haven't read the entire thread but you may have a dysbiosis like SIBO.  Check out the probiotic strain called Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG.  The latest research (within the past 2 years) shows break through results with this strain (it may be the only strain you need).

[Muon]

Simon, how much time was there between your last orgasm prior to the IL-10 test and the blood collection for the IL-10 test?

[Simon66]

Hi Simon,

I haven't read the entire thread but you may have a dysbiosis like SIBO.  Check out the probiotic strain called Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG.  The latest research (within the past 2 years) shows break through results with this strain (it may be the only strain you need).

Hi limejuice. Yes, my thoughts are that I am dealing with a severe dysbiosis and loss of good bacteria.

I've had to avoid all Lactobacillus because it seems to make my legs burn a lot more. I believe I have some severe vitamin deficiencies that I need to take care of before I start rebuilding my gut. A lot of my symptoms like burning legs, tinnitus & blurry vision seem like B12 deficiency.

Thanks for the reminder about the Lacto GG, it is one that is highly recommended by a lot of people. I will hopefully take it when I fix this leg burning problem.