Author Topic: Developed POIS after antibiotic use  (Read 38838 times)

Vandemolen

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2018, 05:33:20 PM »
Yeah, I agree. I think the POIS was there before Cipro as I'd had some symptoms since around aged 14. I did have antibiotics as a child so maybe that triggered it initially or maybe I was just born with it and symptoms started when I hit puberty.

I do think POIS is caused by gut dysbiosis though, antibiotics and steroids can do damage to gut bacteria and so can food poisoning.
Agree about the gut. Both my brothers have Crohn’s disease. They checked me at the hospital, but I don’t have Crohn’s disease.
POIS since 2000. Very bad since 2008. I knew that I have POIS since June 2010. Desensitization since March 2011. I stopped with desens in July 2016. I have 50% less POIS. And only 1 day of POIS. Purified CBD works for me, but I am allergic for CBD.

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2018, 06:10:48 PM »
Have a read about butyrate bacteria and Crohn's if you haven't already. I think restoring faecalibacterium and roseburia species are the key to a cure.
Disclaimer: Please research all supplements thoroughly and take them at your own risk. I am not responsible for any adverse reaction you may suffer.

Avoid all Fluoroquinolone antibiotics including Ciprofloxacin, Levaquin and Avelox.

Muon

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2018, 08:25:43 PM »
Agree about the gut. Both my brothers have Crohn’s disease. They checked me at the hospital, but I don’t have Crohn’s disease.
Wait what? They both have Crohn's?

I already had food intolerances and fatigue symptoms long before the first time I masturbated. Some things that caught my eye during my read about Crohn's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crohn%27s_disease

''Another theory is that the inflammation of Crohn's was caused by an overactive Th1 and Th17 cytokine response''
I have measured a Th1 response.

''Low serum levels of vitamin D are associated with Crohn's disease''
Got that as well...check.

Have a read about butyrate bacteria and Crohn's if you haven't already. I think restoring faecalibacterium and roseburia species are the key to a cure.

It seems that patients of Crohn's disease show smaller populations of butyrate producing bacteria if I scroll through articles.
Hmmm IL-8 seems to play a role in Crohn's and IBD. Butyrate is actually a modulator for IL-8 in intestinal epithelia.
https://gut.bmj.com/content/37/4/536
https://gut.bmj.com/content/38/2/216?int_source=trendmd&int_medium=trendmd&int_campaign=trendmd
https://www.nature.com/articles/pr2007275
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2249.1994.tb06047.x
https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/13/16/1715/673135

My brother and I both have elevated IL-8 and this could be related to the intestinal epithelia due to some inflammatory reaction. You guys should test for IL-8 when you have the chance. I'm curious if you guys have it as well.

Nas

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2018, 08:30:25 PM »
Hmmmm,
People take Ciprofloxacin all the time though, why don't they get POIS as we do?
I know you are very passionate about this theory but I find it that it still needs to explain how the heck does Orgasm causes a general immunological reponse.
Also you mentioned that Ciprofloxican killed some bacteria in your gut, but have you ever considered that it can be an opposite case where Ciprofloxican evolved another form of bateria and that this bacteria is living inside consuming your hormones?

Nas

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2018, 08:50:25 PM »
Agree about the gut. Both my brothers have Crohn’s disease. They checked me at the hospital, but I don’t have Crohn’s disease.
Wait what? They both have Crohn's?

I already had food intolerances and fatigue symptoms long before the first time I masturbated. Some things that caught my eye during my read about Crohn's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crohn%27s_disease

''Another theory is that the inflammation of Crohn's was caused by an overactive Th1 and Th17 cytokine response''
I have measured a Th1 response.

''Low serum levels of vitamin D are associated with Crohn's disease''
Got that as well...check.

Have a read about butyrate bacteria and Crohn's if you haven't already. I think restoring faecalibacterium and roseburia species are the key to a cure.

It seems that patients of Crohn's disease show smaller populations of butyrate producing bacteria if I scroll through articles.
Hmmm IL-8 seems to play a role in Crohn's and IBD. Butyrate is actually a modulator for IL-8 in intestinal epithelia.
https://gut.bmj.com/content/37/4/536
https://gut.bmj.com/content/38/2/216?int_source=trendmd&int_medium=trendmd&int_campaign=trendmd
https://www.nature.com/articles/pr2007275
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2249.1994.tb06047.x
https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/13/16/1715/673135

My brother and I both have elevated IL-8 and this could be related to the intestinal epithelia due to some inflammatory reaction. You guys should test for IL-8 when you have the chance. I'm curious if you guys have it as well.

Are hemorrhoids connected with Crohin's disease? Plus I do feel pain in my intestines from time to time ?

Muon

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2018, 09:05:33 PM »
Btw Nas I'm curious about how you got internet in Iraq. Is it common to have it over there or is it a luxury?

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2018, 06:14:38 AM »

Hmmmm,
People take Ciprofloxacin all the time though, why don't they get POIS as we do?
I know you are very passionate about this theory but I find it that it still needs to explain how the heck does Orgasm causes a general immunological reponse.
Also you mentioned that Ciprofloxican killed some bacteria in your gut, but have you ever considered that it can be an opposite case where Ciprofloxican evolved another form of bateria and that this bacteria is living inside consuming your hormones?

Nas,

I'm keeping an open mind but I've posted this butyrate theory in hope that other members will test their gut bacteria and either prove or disprove me.

Let's decide if butyrate bacteria deficiency is an issue for us first and then we can look for a link to orgasms. If I had to take a wild guess, perhaps sex hormone binding globulin (which interacts with steroid hormones) messes with the bacterial balance of the gut. Steroids are known to disrupt the gut bacteria. But as I said, it is useless to speculate at this stage.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 06:16:45 AM by Simon66 »
Disclaimer: Please research all supplements thoroughly and take them at your own risk. I am not responsible for any adverse reaction you may suffer.

Avoid all Fluoroquinolone antibiotics including Ciprofloxacin, Levaquin and Avelox.

Nas

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2018, 09:58:54 AM »
Btw Nas I'm curious about how you got internet in Iraq. Is it common to have it over there or is it a luxury?

Nah we just pray and god sends his holy satellites.

Muon

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2018, 10:36:05 AM »
Nah we just pray and god sends his holy satellites.

LOL!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 10:38:02 AM by Muon »

Meshal

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2018, 10:52:03 PM »
Not sure If this will help but someone posted something similar last year:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2408.0

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2018, 10:22:36 AM »
Muon,

Have a read about the beneficial effects of lactobacillus on interleukin-8:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3888682/

Raw, fermented sauerkraut (not the pasteurised supermarket crap) supposedly has lactobacillus plantarum.

My microbiome test showed that I have no Lactobacillus at all, so I am trying some proper fermented sauerkraut that I bought through an online store. I get an initial bad reaction but it is possibly helping after the sauerkraut reaches my gut. I'll try and remember to post an update in 1 or 2 weeks.

Lactobacillus seems to have similar effects to butyrate bacteria, it maintains the gut lining and reduces inflammation.
Disclaimer: Please research all supplements thoroughly and take them at your own risk. I am not responsible for any adverse reaction you may suffer.

Avoid all Fluoroquinolone antibiotics including Ciprofloxacin, Levaquin and Avelox.

Muon

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2018, 11:03:08 AM »
I ate imported Kimchi from South-Korea daily for a month. The amount was approximately 500g/3= 167 g per day, sometimes a bit less. The first two days I felt good (clear mind) but after that I could not notice anything except for my stomach which felt irritated by the acidity plus it made my teeth more sensitive, however it slightly increased digestion. One time I deliberately kept a closed package for a few days at room temperature up till the point it almost exploded. When I ate that specific portion there were literally gasbubbles forming in my stool while I was looking at my stool.

Product:
https://www.xtrons-store.com/lehibe/xtronsstore/img-1013-charming-mat-kimchi-design-3-1482-x-1880.jpg

@Simon66: Do you have postural intolerance, low blood pressure, tachycardia or autonomic dysfunctional related symptoms?
Above your cortisol measurement you stated this was taken during a flare. What happens during a flare, could you describe this?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 11:21:35 AM by Muon »

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2018, 12:41:54 PM »
Muon,

Has that Kimchi actually got any living bacteria? It is manufactured and not refrigerated so it is perhaps pasteurised. Kimchi has chilli doesn't it? That can't be good for the gut.

Here's the sauerkraut I am trying, it has only 2 ingredients:
https://www.lovingfoods.co.uk/collections/cultured-vegetables/products/sauerkraut-classic

Here's a Chris Kresser article about starting extremely slow with probiotics to let the gut bacteria adjust:
https://chriskresser.com/how-to-restore-healthy-gut-flora-over-the-long-term/


I sometimes have palpitations. Since around aged 14, my symptoms were mainly chronic fatigue, depression/low mood, getting frequent colds/flu, occasional skin rashes like eczema and once maybe had granuloma annulare on my hands. I did once go abroad to Singapore and had some kind of gut upset, my symptoms got a lot worse and I developed pain in my neck but that went away after a few weeks, afterwards my food intolerances were permanently worsened.

Since I took the Ciprofloxacin, the pain in my neck came back and I developed like 50 other symptoms associated with "Fluoroquinolone Toxicity". Basically I have an issue with the collagen in my body breaking down (probably due to high oxidative stress which is worse during a flare), I get bruising on my legs after walking, my shin bones ache, get severe uncontrollable panic and inability to sleep, hypnic jerks, my gut lining hurts if I don't take inulin, my body odour smells weird and strong, vision is sometimes bit blurry, very dry eyes, now have tinnitus and there's more but it is easier just to read about the condition of fluoroquinolone toxicity (which I think is caused by gut dysbiosis and probably worsened my pre-existing dysbiosis).

What is interesting is that people with Fluoroquinolone toxicity and people who have withdrawal issues with benzodiazapines seem to have similar issues. One of the factors I think is low GABA, this is a neurotransmitter thought to be produced and consumed by gut bacteria such as Lactobacillus. There's a discussion in this forum here:

http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2774.msg25029#msg25029

I have adopted a new theory now (still related to gut bacteria) that Low GABA is the cause of at least some our issues. People on this forum and in the Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Facebook groups mention that Alcohol improves or cures their symptoms because it binds to the GABA receptors in the brain and reduces the body's demand for GABA. I have read that during an orgasm the body uses a lot of GABA and that semen contains GABA. We know that an orgasm caused a feeling of exhilaration so it makes sense that there is a big change in neurotransmitter levels. I actually find that my libido gets stronger after 1 week of abstinence and it takes 1 week for the symptoms to die down, so my symptoms must all be from a depletion of a chemical used during orgasm and I think GABA is maybe the only chemical or perhaps there could be others.

So, I think to cure us we can try a few things:

- Try some alcohol (or other GABA substitutes like maybe taurine) to fill the GABA receptors in the brain and reduce the demand for GABA (which will stop harmful glutamate release).

- Fix the gut bacteria that produce and consume the GABA, I am reading that Lactobacillus is a good group of bacteria for this. I read that Lactobacillus does a lot of the same things as Butyrate bacteria such as reduce interleukin-8 and maintain the gut lining. Lactobacillus plantarum is found in sauerkraut and there is another called lactobacillus rhamnosus which I think is found in dairy. I have an extreme reaction to any dairy so I will proceed with a small amount of fermented sauerkraut. I picked a sauerkraut that had only 2 ingredients which is cabbage and salt (see my above link if you want to view it).
Disclaimer: Please research all supplements thoroughly and take them at your own risk. I am not responsible for any adverse reaction you may suffer.

Avoid all Fluoroquinolone antibiotics including Ciprofloxacin, Levaquin and Avelox.

Muon

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2018, 01:23:40 PM »
Btw I did try my own fermented sauerkraut (salt, water and cabbage) but that didn't help at all and couldn't use it for long because my teeth were too sensitive at that time. Then later I switched to a brand from south korea because they might contain different strains. That one was refrigerated and contained gas absorbants inside the package. If I would let it outside of the refrigerator it blows up quite fast, so I'm pretty sure it contains living bacteria. Oh yea I almost forgot to tell that it sometimes gave me diarrhea.

I haven't tried it for the long term though, like for at least a year. 4 weeks was the max.

About GABA: Yes Taurine helps a bit but it's a minor effect. I personally don't respond well to alcohol while it does help my mother with her symptoms when it's a small amount.

There are also indications I might have a SIBO so that means I could have an overgrowth of these lacto bacteria. In that case you shouldn't even be eating these fermented foods. My grandma actually did not respond well to cabbage in general (not fermented).

Another parameter you might want to consider is Serotonin. It's being produced inside the gut for >90%. Perhaps fermented food will help you, it didn't make a difference for me though.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 02:31:26 PM by Muon »

Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2018, 04:39:23 PM »
Btw I did try my own fermented sauerkraut (salt, water and cabbage) but that didn't help at all and couldn't use it for long because my teeth were too sensitive at that time. Then later I switched to a brand from south korea because they might contain different strains. That one was refrigerated and contained gas absorbants inside the package. If I would let it outside of the refrigerator it blows up quite fast, so I'm pretty sure it contains living bacteria. Oh yea I almost forgot to tell that it sometimes gave me diarrhea.

I haven't tried it for the long term though, like for at least a year. 4 weeks was the max.

About GABA: Yes Taurine helps a bit but it's a minor effect. I personally don't respond well to alcohol while it does help my mother with her symptoms when it's a small amount.

There are also indications I might have a SIBO so that means I could have an overgrowth of these lacto bacteria. In that case you shouldn't even be eating these fermented foods. My grandma actually did not respond well to cabbage in general (not fermented).

Another parameter you might want to consider is Serotonin. It's being produced inside the gut for >90%. Perhaps fermented food will help you, it didn't make a difference for me though.

Okay thanks, I think the strange suicidal panic and inability to sleep that I had immediately after taking Ciprofloxacin indicate it is probably low GABA causing my issues.

You need to get your microbiome tested using a "16S" accuracy, then you'll know if Lactobacillus is completely missing like in my case.
Disclaimer: Please research all supplements thoroughly and take them at your own risk. I am not responsible for any adverse reaction you may suffer.

Avoid all Fluoroquinolone antibiotics including Ciprofloxacin, Levaquin and Avelox.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2018, 02:53:35 AM »
After i so how Kurtosis did suscesfuly get rid of his pois  https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/35rh8o/kurtosis_explains_to_the_best_of_his_knowledge/
 Since then i am trying to repair my guts withouth susces.

I am tick bited in testicle in age 13,14. After that i got pneumonia.
Me olso think that i devolped pois in around age 13-14, when i hawe misdiagnosed pneumonia from bad doctor, then after a weak in high temerature anodher doctor diagnose me with pneumonia, its show that go on both wings infecktion.

3 moonth sick with large amount ANTIBIOTICS.

Newer been sick to age 13-14, after that pneumonia, i became so sensitive to colds for years later.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 04:38:58 AM by Hopeoneday »
Dr-pois.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2018, 03:04:35 AM »
Dr-pois.

quotz

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2018, 06:33:48 AM »
@Muon, @Simon66,

Have you guys tried experimenting with GABA, Dopamine, Serotonin modulators/inhibitors/stimulators? Methylphenidate, Benzodiazepines, 5HTP?


Simon66

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2018, 08:14:53 AM »
No, I have a bad reaction to supplements so won't do any of those unless I'm really desperate. I've got probiotic foods and prebiotic powder that I am currently using with some success.
Disclaimer: Please research all supplements thoroughly and take them at your own risk. I am not responsible for any adverse reaction you may suffer.

Avoid all Fluoroquinolone antibiotics including Ciprofloxacin, Levaquin and Avelox.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2018, 09:05:31 AM »
Lack of gaba is definitly involwed in my case.
2tht and 3th day after O, sometimes i hawe so sewere chest muscule stiffnes, that severe that is life treting.
In that case i preperedd wery small dose of benzos, that help me to survive.

Dr-pois.