Author Topic: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome  (Read 12108 times)

Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #135 on: November 21, 2020, 07:03:05 AM »
Mallory:

"During and immediately after orgasm, from intercourse or masturbation, I get  body and joint aches, neck stiffness, throbbing headache and nausea. This also happens when I perform oral sex on my husband, that does not result in an orgasm on my end.   It's the worst for several hours but the flu like symptoms will last for days."

These two scenarios are leading to similar symptoms:

1) Orgasm from masturbation
2) Oral sex without having an orgasm on her end

Sounds like an 'abnormal' endogenous process due to orgasm that can be triggered by an exogenous substance, in this case semen.

Concentrations and significance of cytokines and other immunologic factors in semen of healthy fertile men

Discussion of semen content:
Manifestations of immune tolerance in the human female reproductive tract

From the first paper about high concentrations:

"High concentrations of IgG and IgA were detected in all samples. IgG concentrations were significantly higher than IgA concentrations (P < 0.0001). Likewise, two multifunctional growth factors, transforming growth factor-b1 and interleukin (IL)-7, and three chemokines, stromal cell-derived factor-1a, monocyte chemotactic/chemoattractant protein-1 and IL-8, were present in high concentrations in all samples (medians >1000 pg/ml)."

"TGF-a1 is present in extremely high concentrations in human seminal plasma. Seminal plasma contains more active TGF-a1 (1 ng/ml) than do other body fluids including blood plasma and breast milk"

Switching to men for a moment:
"TGF-a1 is thought to be synthesized in latent (inactive) form primarily in the prostate; following ejaculation, seminal TGF-a1 may be converted to its active form in the female tract by the acidic vaginal pH, or enzymes found in seminal plasma."
Ejaculation activates these growth factors whatever that means.

From second paper:

"Human seminal plasma contains very high concentrations of prostaglandins when compared to other bodily secretions. It is now apparent that PGE2, 19-hydroxyprostaglandin E1 and 19-hydroxyprostaglandin E2 are the three major prostaglandins in human seminal plasma, each being present in millimolar concentrations. Since these lipid mediators often manifest their effects in the uM to nM concentration range, virtually all pathways that are affected by these lipids are operating under saturating conditions in human semen."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 07:59:13 AM by Muon »

nanna1

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #136 on: November 26, 2020, 03:02:36 AM »
...Sounds like an 'abnormal' endogenous process due to orgasm that can be triggered by an exogenous substance, in this case semen...

...From second paper:
"Human seminal plasma contains very high concentrations of prostaglandins when compared to other bodily secretions. It is now apparent that PGE2, 19-hydroxyprostaglandin E1 and 19-hydroxyprostaglandin E2 are the three major prostaglandins in human seminal plasma, each being present in millimolar concentrations..."
I think it's the prostaglandins in the semen that cause this. Or it could be caused by the polyamines (spermine, spermidine).
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 03:14:08 AM by nanna1 »
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Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #137 on: November 26, 2020, 01:48:50 PM »
Or it could be caused by the polyamines (spermine, spermidine).

Food contains polyamines. I wonder whether the food sensitivies seen in POISers could be related to defects in polyamine metabolism.

Polyamines in Food

Polyamines in Gut Inflammation and Allergy

Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #138 on: December 02, 2020, 08:44:49 PM »
Or it could be caused by the polyamines (spermine, spermidine).

Metabolic and Epigenomic Regulation of Th17/Treg Balance by the Polyamine Pathway

Sam-e plays a role as well.

Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #139 on: December 05, 2020, 08:05:39 AM »
I used to be sick pretty often too, which I later found out was caused by a food intolerance (a very bad one, almost an allergy) to soy.

https://www.celiac.com/articles.html/gluten-and-cross-reactive-foods-r4903/

My mother has IBS, I wonder if she's the one who carries the "POIS gene" in our family if this turns out to be indeed genetic. It would be great if researchers could indeed pinpoint a gene that causes this, but with how little research is being done...

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=nl&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=IBS+genetics&btnG=
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 08:30:24 AM by Muon »

IronFeather

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #140 on: December 05, 2020, 08:32:45 AM »
I used to be sick pretty often too, which I later found out was caused by a food intolerance (a very bad one, almost an allergy) to soy.

https://www.celiac.com/articles.html/gluten-and-cross-reactive-foods-r4903/

To follow up on this, maybe this long episode I had could damage the gut bacteria or throw it out of balance, causing problems in the development or functioning of the vagus nerve?
25-year-old Spanish woman with POIS symptoms for the last 12 years.
Suffering from exercise intolerance since April 2020.

Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #141 on: December 05, 2020, 08:39:17 AM »
To follow up on this, maybe this long episode I had could damage the gut bacteria or throw it out of balance, causing problems in the development or functioning of the vagus nerve?

Or the core problem lies within the GI tract. The vagus nerve may try to counter microbiome shifts. The adjustments made by the VN may be accompanied by inflammation, the inflammation is there to fight something but could damage the host as well in the process. Gut problems affect the brain as well and can lower serotonin leading to an equivalent of male premature ejaculation. Gut-brain axis.

Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #142 on: December 05, 2020, 08:52:25 AM »
Yes many had improvement on gluten-free (+diary free) diets despite negative coeliac/gluten sensitivity tests. I will post something in the thread for women.

That's interesting, I wonder if some gut dysbiosis is indeed at play. The vagus nerve is greatly regulated by gut bacteria, this could be something... right before I developed POIS (a year before or so), I had 4 months of constant diarrhea due to a soy intolerance that I hadn't yet identified, maybe this could influence the development of the vagus nerve in a negative way somehow? Hmm...

I wish I could participate in the POIS study, but I can't travel to the US for that :(

I told her they excluded women from the study:

Wow, I didn't know they had excluded women... sounds totally stupid to me too. But then, it's not too surprising, since POIS is still presented as a male-only syndrome in some scientific papers. I wonder why the enormous difference in the amount of male patients and female patients... do women speak about it less? Does it affect something that is very developed in men and much less developed in women, like prostatic tissue, testosterone...? Or could it only affect women with some typically-male characteristics? I wonder.

I agree, it's stupid. It's far more prevalent in men plus women are speaking less about it, especially on a male dominant forum. Men are more prone to infection and women to autoimmune disease. Also, I gave another reason for this somewhere in this thread which is mast cell related. In men there is additional activation upon orgasm within a certain area of the brain that isn't happening in women. That area could be of interest for research.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 08:59:30 AM by Muon »

berlin1984

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #143 on: December 06, 2020, 02:15:03 PM »
Wow, I didn't know they had excluded women... sounds totally stupid to me too. But then, it's not too surprising, since POIS is still presented as a male-only syndrome in some scientific papers. I wonder why the enormous difference in the amount of male patients and female patients... do women speak about it less?

In my opinion, it's because POIS is (basically) CFS in women. Not my own conclusion, but I found it on the internet and think it's very intriguing..
My Protocol with adaoptogens, neurotransmitter precursors, energy production supplements helps with 80% of the symptoms with intercourse, 50% with masturbation.

IronFeather

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #144 on: December 16, 2020, 05:14:53 PM »
In my opinion, it's because POIS is (basically) CFS in women. Not my own conclusion, but I found it on the internet and think it's very intriguing..

Hmm, chronic fatigue syndrome? I doubt it, at least in my case. Maybe POIS can cause CFS, I could believe that, since I've developed symptoms that match CFS, but that only happened this year and I've had POIS for 12 years already. And it happened as a result of exposure to bleach, I had a terrible reaction for some reason and developed exercise intolerance. I think I should add that story to this thread, I'll do it in another post.

But before that... I've always had an immense amount of energy, and I used to train martial arts and calisthenics, always jumping from one activity to another. It doesn't seem possible to me that POIS could be CFS in my case at all.

Anyway, maybe I have it now? Who knows. When I was exposed to bleach I had episodes of complete lack of strength and total depletion of energy, even lifting a spoon was an effort. But now I feel fine, even when I'm left with exercise intolerance... (and I would give almost anything for it to disappear).
25-year-old Spanish woman with POIS symptoms for the last 12 years.
Suffering from exercise intolerance since April 2020.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #145 on: December 16, 2020, 06:22:29 PM »
Hi IronFeather.
I hawe (big in pois) hi chemical intolerances, parfumes etc...
I remeber as a teeneger wehen i cleaned moldy in room with bleach ,
that did give me lungs colapsing reaction, cant tolerate it for one second.

My mother is obsessed with cleaning, and for years I did have to convincing her to
 that she "poisoning me, us" in house with all those chemicals.
Now she use more natural cleaners and less chemicals.

When i am in full blown pois mode, brochoconstriction in thouse mode,
put bealch fumes on that, uffffffff, disaster.

Autosugestion and newer giwe up mode(fighting mode) keep me in life.

Cfs , exsercise intolerance is my big isue and life destroyer.
Small dose coffe help a lot.
Taurine one two grams help.
Zma , zink magnesium help.
Try some b complex vitamines.
C vitamine help.
Check yours vitamine D.
Some high quality multivitamine...
Check yours diet eg food intolerances...

Did you checked yours thyroid?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 01:54:36 PM by Hopeoneday »
Dr-pois.

Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #146 on: December 17, 2020, 12:43:53 PM »
I've had blood tests done multiple times during my worst fever episodes, and everything comes back normal except for very low levels of iron (I usually have normal or even high iron and hemoglobin levels), and through-the-roof amounts of C-reactive protein. This led doctors to think I could have mononucleosis or some kind of bacterial infection, but all specific tests came back negative. They put me on antibiotics anyway, and that solved most symptoms almost immediately and made me able to get out of bed and finally get better during the worst episode I've ever had. That's why I've always thought it must be some kind of infection by some pathogen, even when I used to believe an autoinmune reaction must be the cause. Now I don't even know what to believe or what to do.

Intracellular iron regulation, infections and the effect of LPS endotoxins

"Withholding iron from potential pathogens is a host defense strategy."

"As alluded to earlier, iron is essential for the survival and growth of almost all organisms. Furthermore, an important strategy of mammalian antimicrobial defense is based on depriving pathogens of this essential nutrient"

Hopeoneday

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Dr-pois.

Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #148 on: December 22, 2020, 12:57:58 PM »
Perhaps the most relevant aspect of the neuroregulatory aspects of gonadal steroids in neurosomatic disorers is that “estradiol enhances and testosterone attenuates novelty stress-stimulated increases in c-Fos mRNA in the hippocampus, with presumed consequent alterations in the transcription regulatory effects of c-Fos” (Roca CA et al., 1999).

Hi guys! I missed a post from earlier above with some questions. Sorry about that.  Before POIS yes I always had an extremely high libido. More than any boyfriend or husband I ever had. Although since it started making me feel so bad sex is the last thing I want to do.

I'm somewhat always stressed due to running my own business and taking care of my family.

I have done 3 hormone tests over the last year. All were when I was not symptomatic. All showed very high estrogen and non-existent testosterone. I will be happy to upload those here if that's possible.

I did show on one of the test my cholesterol was a little high which shocked me a lot.  My last test a few weeks ago showed low vitamin D which also shocked me considering I literally take a vitamin D pill every day and I'm outside a good bit.

I have been experiencing this for about 4 or 5 years now and the symptoms have gotten considerably progressive worse over time.

Anyway, I can round up all of my blood test and upload them if anybody wants.

Antihistamines, Serotonin supplements (which ones?) and NSAIDs did not work for her. However TRT works. She felt awful on progesterone.

Well I don't have 2 heads (thank God because headaches on 1 head is enough!!!) But I am one that gets severe headaches after sex.  It is all over my head. It is not in one spot. In the past it would start out like my head felt deprived of oxygen or something and was very dull achey brain foggy confused feeling. It almost felt as if my brain was burning.

Endothelin release--->vasoconstriction? Cerebral hypoperfusion? Hypoxia?
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.msg38274#msg38274

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Fos
"It is involved in important cellular events, including cell proliferation, differentiation and survival; genes associated with hypoxia"

"It plays an important role in many cellular functions and has been found to be overexpressed in a variety of cancers."

15) My two grandmothers died from breast cancer, and one of my grandfathers died of prostate cancer, but apart from that, the only health problems I can think of in my family are the endless digestive problems of my mother. She's been diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome and lactose intolerance, but her troubles only appeared after the emotional turmoil of her relationship with my physically abusive father, so that might explain her issues.

Also seen in MCAS: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2755.msg32997#msg32997
Argument of MCA can also be made in case of Heather's high estrogen which is a potent mast cell activator.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 03:46:43 PM by Muon »

Muon

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Re: Women with Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome
« Reply #149 on: December 24, 2020, 11:06:26 AM »
Ironfeather could prevent her symptoms from getting worse by exercise. It is known that BDNF increases during exercise. Does she have low (serum) BDNF just like my brother?