Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS

[nanna1]

Hi all. I finished my niacin and decided to buy excedrin. I took it 2 hours before release. It have never been better!!! I think it is the best treatment for me(but niacin works good too,may be 80%).

Congratulation Rinat on your recent trial of excedrin. And thanks for sharing the timing you used before your release. That was very smart!

[nanna1]

Natural killer (NK) cells are your friend against viral infection.

[demografx]

nanna1, I love your graphics!

[Spartak]

Natural killer (NK) cells are your friend against viral infection.

How to trigger them to produce more?

[nanna1]

Natural killer (NK) cells are your friend against viral infection...

How to trigger them to produce more?

Hi Spartak,
  I discussed some ways to increase NK cell activity here: Immune Competence Therapy. ImmunoComplex by Quality of Life actually has some good research showing immune supporting properties.

II. immune activation stack (cycle - 6 days on, 4 days off)
...
ImmunoComplex stack (15 - 20 min before each meal / three times daily, requires food)

• active hexose correlated compounds (AHCC)
• zinc methionine
• copper oxide
• vitamin C
• vitamin D3
• Andrographis

beta-glucan (1g)
copper gluconate (2mg, empty stomach)
...

[nanna1]

  I found a few articles showing indomethacin has potent effect on inhibiting previous coronaviruses (CoV), such as SARS-CoV, CCoV and MHV. These articles do not discuss the novel coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2, formerly called 2019-nCov) or the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). This post is for information and discussion purposes only. Washing hands, not touching your face (eyes, nose, mouth), and maintaining social distance are still the most effective means for avoiding viral infection (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/prevention.html). Prevention is better than cure. Please follow the instructions for your local authorities and health care professionals.

Indomethacin was shown to potently inhibit SARS-CoV and CCov:

"...we found that indomethacin (INDO) has a potent direct antiviral activity against the coronaviruses SARS-CoV and canine coronavirus (CCoV). Indomethacin does not affect coronavirus binding or entry into host cells, but acts by blocking viral RNA synthesis at cytoprotective doses. This effect is independent of cyclooxygenase (COX-1) inhibition...the antiviral activity cannot be mimicked by the potent (COX-1) inhibitor aspirin, which has no effect on
either CCoV or SARS-CoV replication Indomethacin's potent antiviral activity (>1,000-fold reduction in virus yield) was confirmed in vivo in CCoV-infected dogs."
-Indomethacin has a potent antiviral activity against SARS coronavirus (Amici C, et. al., 2006)

The hepatitis coronavirus was found to be dependent on prostaglandin production:

"Here we investigated the role of COXs in the mouse hepatitis coronavirus (MHV) infection cycle...COX inhibitors reduced mouse hepatitis coronavirus infection...COX activity appears to be required for efficient MHV replication, providing a potential target for anti-coronaviral therapy...Similarly, rotavirus replication was also negatively affected by the addition of COX inhibitors early, but not late in the infection cycle...COX activity appears to be required for efficient MHV replication, providing a potential target for anti-coronaviral therapy."
-Cyclooxygenase activity is important for efficient replication of mouse hepatitis virus at an early stage of infection (2007)

Coronaviruses (like most other viruses) up-regulates COX-2:

"Coronaviruses (CoVs) constitute a family of enveloped, (RNA) viruses... two (proteins) from the SARS-CoV were shown to induce the expression of COX-2... elevated levels of PGE₂ were found in the blood of SARS-CoV-infected individuals, suggesting a role for COXs and prostaglandins in CoV pathogenesis."
-Cyclooxygenase activity is important for efficient replication of mouse hepatitis virus at an early stage of infection (2007)

However, indomethacin is most effective as an antiviral when it is timed prior to being exposed. This means knowing the time window of virus exposure is critical:

"...MHV infection was significantly reduced, as measured by the indirect IFA described above, if indomethacin was added up to 1 h after the cells were placed at 37 C (body-temperature). The maximum inhibitory effect was obtained when indomethacin was added immediately after the cells were placed at 37 C. No significant inhibition of the infection was observed if indomethacin was added 2 h after the cells were placed at 37 C."
-Cyclooxygenase activity is important for efficient replication of mouse hepatitis virus at an early stage of infection (2007)

The antiviral activity of indomethacin is not unique to coronaviruses. Many other viruses are dependent on prostaglandins for their replication such as influenza, HIV, rotoviruses and herpes viruses.

Indomethacin also enhances general antiviral immunity. It is know to increase Natural Killer cell number and activity. (Ref1, Ref2, Ref3).

There is still no officially sanctioned (federally approved) therapy or vaccine for SARS-CoV-2 (the virus for COVID-19). Currently, only the antiviral drug Remdesivir (by Gilead Sciences) has been tested in humans with some effectiveness and safety. In the USA, the Center for Disease Control is advising to wash hands regularly, avoid public gatherings and maintain 4 - 6 feet of social distance.

[Hopeoneday]

Hi Nanna, what are you think about antimalarics medicines wich is "suscesifully" used against new corona?
I did  tryed last year for a test ("for pois patogen"), a kinin tonic , wich hawe no medicall effect but i tryed enyway.
Is it worth to try antimalaric drug for pois, i can see it is in use as antiarrhythmic?

[nanna1]

Hi Hopeoneday,

  I do not see any advantage to hydroxychloroquine over indomethacin. Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is a type of bleaching/oxidizing agent similar to (chlorine bleach) that suppresses the immune system.  Taking HCQ longterm has similar effects as drinking dilute chlorine bleach, including bleaching of the eyes and hair color (Hydroxychloroquine Side_effects).
  Because of its chemical structure, HQC has limited/reduced solubility into certain tissues and cell structures which makes it "safer" than regular bleach and chloroquine. The disinfectant Benzalkonium Chloride is also a bleaching/oxidizer that does not penetrate some skin layers, so it is considered "safe".

  There are some pathogens that hydroxychloroquine can oxidize directly (and thus kill), but it is not effective against herpes. In fact, long-term use of hydroxychloroquine makes herpes worse (Ref1, Ref2) because of immune suppression. In vitro studies suggest that indomethacin (IC₅₀ = 2uM) is more effective against viruses than hydroxychloroquine (EC₅₀ = 4uM) (smaller number is better, see IC₅₀ post). Indomethacin has direct antiviral effects and it boost antiviral immune cells (post). If you have a life threatening disease like malaria or COVID-19 then HQC maybe safe relative to those diseases. But in general, I do not currently see an advantage to taking hydroxychloroquine vs. taking indomethacin. But I could be wrong. I have been wrong many times. In any case, if using indomethacin, it should always be taken with selenium (i.e. selenomethionine) to prevent gastric side-effect. A little caffeine (< 100mg, green tea) can reduce vascular side-effects.

Drug detox antioxidants:
---N-acetylcysteine (1.2g)
---selenomethionine (200 micrograms)

...research indicates that selenomethionine detoxifies indomethacin (Ref1, Ref2, Ref3) and N-acetylcyteine detoxifies acetaminophen/Tylenol (Ref4, Ref5, Ref6). In adddition to inhibiting NF-kB, selenomethione and N-acetylcyteine boost glutathoine and should be taken to minimized potential side-effects...

References:
1. Risk and severity of herpes zoster in patients with rheumatoid arthritis receiving different immunosuppressive medications: a case-control study in Asia.
2. Immunosuppressive medication use and risk of herpes zoster (HZ) in patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE): A nationwide case-control study.
3. Accidental hydroxychloroquine overdose resulting in neurotoxic vestibulopathy

[berlin1984]

Cross-posting from the gum disease / Gingivitis / Parodontitis thread related to Alzheimer's:

Apparantly all kind of pathogens can leak down from the mouth :-(

Personally, I have an inflamed/painful mouth feeling one day(?) after O.

Independant of that I also have diagnosed peridontal disease without pain (and bleeding gums if I don't take care).

As I'm currently quite hooked on nanna1's theories about latent viruses (and immune activation), I thought I'd post the herpes links:

"Reactivation of HCMV in periodontitis lesions tends to be associated with progressing periodontal disease. Herpesvirus-associated periodontitis lesions harbor elevated levels of periodontopathic bacteria, including Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans, Porphyromonas gingivalis, Bacteriodes forsythus, Prevotella intermedia, Prevotella nigrescens and Treponema denticola. It may be that active periodontal herpesvirus infection impairs periodontal defenses, thereby permitting subgingival overgrowth of periodontopathic bacteria. Alteration between latent and active herpesvirus infection in the periodontium might lead to transient local immunosuppression and explain in part the episodic progressive nature of human periodontitis"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11155159/

"It has been suggested that the coexistence of these viruses and possibly of other viruses with periodontal bacteria and host immune responses can be seen as a precarious balance that has the potential to lead to periodontal destruction."
"Some periodontal bacteria can reactivate a latent herpes virus."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4774289/

"the available data suggest that periodontitis occurs more frequently and progresses more rapidly in herpesvirus-infected than in non-infected periodontal sites."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15553977/

I find it amusing that https://www.dentistryiq.com/dental-hygiene/patient-education/article/16360043/4-supplements-that-dental-professionals-need-to-discuss-with-periodontal-patients recommends Echinacea as "Inhibits enzymes that break down tissue." even though the method of action might then be (also) the anti-viral properties of Echinacea.

For my own health, I'm now trying some candy with Lactobacillus Reuteri that is supposed to help with the gums by overriding the pathogenic community in the mouth. (independent of trying nanna1's immune activation stack)

[Muon]

Dumping this here for the anti-viral properties, Table 1:

The Role of Quercetin, Flavonols and Flavones in Modulating Inflammatory Cell Function

[swell]

Very nice reference, I like the way they compare different flavanols.  Quercetin AND Luteolin (specially) has a nice effect on me, whereas Fisetin (also cited in this research) somehow has an oppositely negative effect on me.  I get induced into temporary POIS for about 24 hrs after taking one dosage only.  Anyone else has this effect from Fisetin?

Dumping this here for the anti-viral properties, Table 1:

The Role of Quercetin, Flavonols and Flavones in Modulating Inflammatory Cell Function

[berlin1984]

Dumping this as it would link the (latent) virus theory with the mast cell / histamine theory:

https://www.histamine-sensitivity.com/histamine-intol-viral-infections-01-18.html
"What can be done for a person with a histamine intolerance who has responded well to diet change, but still suffers episodes when exposed to a virus like the common cold? I don't know if this histamine over-reaction would be gut related. Episodes consist of severe nausea and vomiting for 3-4 days, copiously runny nose, flushing, rash, rapid heart rate, and anxiety. "
"Recently, it has been shown that mast cells can be directly activated in response to influenza a virus (IAV), releasing mediators such as histamine, proteases, leukotrienes, inflammatory cytokines, and antiviral chemokines,"
"it would be logical to assume that excess histamine is impacting negatively on your body?s ability to fight the infection.  This negative effect is probably only relevant to viral infections; bacterial and parasitic infections should not be similarly affected.  The question that cannot be answered is whether your long-standing histamine intolerance, which is likely to be due to an inherent histamine-degrading enzyme (probably DAO) deficiency, is resulting in even higher histamine levels.  This of course would increase the severity of your infection-associated symptoms as well as triggering histamine related effects in other organ systems [please refer to my Guides for details about symptoms of histamine sensitivity], exactly as you report. "In the meantime I would suggest that the most effective approach when you have a viral infection would be to carefully follow a histamine-restricted diet, take supplemental DAO before each meal and at bedtime to break down any residual histamine before it can enter the body, and take antihistamines to reduce the severity of your symptoms"

^^ Maybe this is just stating the obvious though for people more into the subject than me.

My thought: Person consumes too much histamine via food and also histamine liberators. Has problems with DAO (histamine intolerance). Has leaky gut, making histamine passing through to bloodstream. Then: Histamine is released at orgasm. Virus is somehow re-activating and does it's thing, maybe involving more histamine.
All this histamine overload leads to problems.

Clues why I think this theory makes sense: Check the list at https://alisonvickery.com.au/anti-histamine-foods/ .. it mentions a lot of things POISers take or recommend. (It even mentions the recently mentioned hard drugs like Apple ;-) )

[berlin1984]

sodium ascorbate (intravenous vitamin C):
see Long-term herpes relief and permanent virus removal strategies

I had an appoint at a German naturopath (with specialization in digestion and TCM).
The reason I wanted to go there was just the IV VC, but for I guess legal reasons she also insisted to hear about my problems first, which I think was good.

She was quite understanding of my problems (general weakness at certain points during the day, digestive problems sometimes, POIS). She didn't know the word POIS but was completely understanding about it (empathic women ftw, much better experience than when I went to male urologist). She did some things like checking pulse, making photo of my tongue to deduce health issues from there.
She thinks I have red small dots/spots which indicate a resident pathogen (she explicitely mention EBV, but could be anything else and probably not so relevant which one it is).
She also thinks my gut has some malicious bacteria and recommends probiotics (and getting stool analysis which I don't want to do yet for financial reasons).
She also recommended an algae based Omega3 supplement.
She thinks my gum problems are also very related (and not normal for my age).

In the chinese medicine way of looking at it, she thinks I have a weak kidney (see this post, although she did not mention that word, maybe it's the same)  that needs to be strengthened by getting rid of pathogens, good sleep, good diet, no sugar etc. (She also thinks me not eating wheat is good).

She ordered an oil for me that I'm recommended to take. The ingredients are (from googleing, I did not get the oil yet... translated to English) :
Rizol Kappa Oil (Ozonated Castor Oil, Ozonated Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Wormwood Oil, Clove Oil, Walnut Oil, Black Cumin Oil, Thyme Oil, Majoran Oil)
Apparantly the goal of that oil is to kill off bad gut bacteria by exposing them to the oxygen of that oil.

The IV VC was not so interesting during it (I didn't feel much, I did not feel the inflammation relief that nanna1 described, maybe because I don't have inflammation on that day). But afterwards I felt very nice for some hours, like a happy content MDMA afterglow. However I also feel something cleaning up in my intestines (now at home, not during). My gut is rumbling and I sometimes shiver. (Nothing negative, I'm happy this happens)

I'm tempted to book another IV. Thanks nanna1 for recommending it!

[nanna1]

That's cool berlin1984! Keep updating us on your journey to better health! 

[berlin1984]

Here is my update :-)

I had my second Vitamin C IV (7.5g like last time), this time combined with Vitamin Bs.. This time I didn't have the happy-content afterglow feeling afterwards, possibly because there was no deficiency anymore, just the other effects. Or maybe the Vitamin Bs mask it somehow.
On the day after, again I had some die-off feelings. (which is good!)

I also started with the Rizol oil therapy. As I wrote, it's about ozenoated oil going into your body (together with the essential oils) and giving off the surplus O and killing of pathogens by that. It seems to be a common practice for the "healing practitioners" in Germany, maybe not much known in other countries. ("Rizol ?l nach Dr. Steidl").
Those English resources might help: https://www.aloeride.com/the-use-and-usefulness-of-para-rizol-gamma-and-para-rizol-zeta/ and https://www.betterhealthguy.com/images/stories/PDF/LymeProtocol08.pdf
The first drop was really intense. I could feel weird shivers and weird feelins in the gut immediatly. Both from the strong essential oil smell and maybe from the ozone. Now after some days of usage, I can easily handle more drops. Possibly because the drops don't hit the gut pathogens anymore, but have to be absorbed first and need to work in the body.

Related: What I found interesting is that the Italians see ozone therapy as cure for CFS.
https://www.pagepressjournals.org/index.php/ozone/article/view/7812/7465
Note that this is about a dialysis on your own blood, so it is much much more invasive (and stronger) than just swallowing an oil.
Something similar explained in the blog here: https://www.elizabethrider.com/my-epstein-barr-treatment-natural-healing-protocol/
With unlimited money and limited patience, I'd the stuff there too.

She also thinks my gut has some malicious bacteria

To clarify on this, I asked "Assuming there is malicious bacteria/etc inside me, are they just in the gut?" she said definitely not, they can be anywhere, for example in the liver. And it doesn't have to be bacteria, it can be any other form too. In her view, everybody has a certain load of pathogens and it's the question of how/if the body can handle it. Same for having a certain maximum load of heavy metals that we can detox.

As of orgasms, to be honest I haven't tried many but from the ones I've tried I think the day-after symptoms are better. No headache. More stable mood. Quite a bit more energy. But I'm still not completely healed so I'm also not expecting too much yet.
It's also interesting to not have joint pain anymore.

(Also with big time distance from the oil, I'm taking a daily yoghurt. Seems to help also with general issues keeping some bad guys in control.)

(Yes I know that Herpes are virusses and I'm mixing things together here, but I really liked nanna1's term:

III. Broad Spectrum Pathogen load reduction

So I'm happy both the Rizol Oil and IV Vitamin C are broad in that regard.
 
If my post sounds too enthusiastic and optimist, don't worry I'll edit and correct it if I change my opinion in some weeks.

[berlin1984]

Found this blog comment by coincidence. It sounds intriguing..


Explaining ME/CFS? Prusty / Naviaux Study Ties Infections to Energy Breakdowns

Ric on April 27, 2020 at 10:28 pm
Cort,
I have both CFS and POIS. Both simultaneously onset same day
In 1993.
Post Orgasmic Syndrome is a NORD validated rare disease. Where men crash with severe CFS like symptoms for 2 to 5 days after every ejaculation takes place (does not matter how (sex, nocturnal emissions etc.)).

The symptoms are amazingly similar as as a bad CFS crash. But most men go back to higher plateau of functioning than people with CFS (unless they have both) in 2 to 5 days. For me 3.

Imagine the study gem this entails. The whole cycle ALWAYS happens. So it could show volumes if tracked daily monitoring multiple biomarkers.

Dr Maria Vera who works in Dr. Klimas office said to me ?EBV has an affinity for sexual organs like the testis?.

Light went on. These thousands of men could be the missing men in CFS! Testosterone goes down after ejaculation and it takes a few days to come back. The things that help them are exactly the same as what helps people with CFS. The similarities are perplexing. To the extreme that I have given them lots of good material from CFS that they use now to alleviate symptoms. Many are just waiting for the CFS cure with the hope it will somehow benefit them.

I have long suspected that herpes type virus are involved in POIS. I came down with EBV then POIS + CFS simultaneously. So the link is there for me. I am not the only man who has both. Note that hormonal changes activate herpes viruses as well.

Studying this cohort could shed so much light into both CFS and POIS.

The problem I have is that few people with one label bother to look at the other. That is different they conjecture.

I have both and I believe they are one and the same. Except POIS. Is what these men call their short term CFS episodes.

More on POIS at

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php

Can you please consider taking a look bringing the group to researches attention? It could be the missing link in these diseases spectrum.

I don't know who this Ric is, but after reading nanna1's post about the NK cells, I had the same thoughts.

[Muon]

ajs

"I'm a woman and I have pois so I personally know it has nothing to do with allergy to seamen....I have been reading since the beginning and I remember that girlwind was very irritated by the moderater and I agree his ego and wanting to be right all the time was annoying and I really wish she did not leave...my pois turned into chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia and I could not digest anything and went to get food tested and my back welted up to everything but my blood work showed no allergies to food...I do know that my pois started after getting shingles....all the testing I've done and the only thing they have found were very high levels of antibodies to three different viruses."

What are the other two besides VZV? Can anyone contact her at nakedscientist?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingles

[hurray]

How does the theory deal with people who do not have any kind of herpes?

Do you need to have herpes to be diagnosed with POIS now?

[berlin1984]

How does the theory deal with people who do not have any kind of herpes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpesviridae
"Herpesviridae is a large family of DNA viruses"
[..]
"More than 90% of adults have been infected with at least one of these, and a latent form of the virus remains in almost all humans who have been infected."

Do you need to have herpes to be diagnosed with POIS now?

No :-)

[Muon]

Flavonoids: promising natural compounds against viral infections