Author Topic: Prostatitis - revisited  (Read 6397 times)

trusttheprocess

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Prostatitis - revisited
« on: March 14, 2018, 02:58:42 AM »
Hello POIS forum!

I missed everyone here, sorry for the long absence from the board!  Since my last post I have been seeing doctors about POIS related issues, trying to approach POIS from a traditional medical standpoint.  Although they weren't very helpful, I have learned some valuable information along the way I want to share with everybody.

First, I still think chronic bacterial prostatitis (CBP) is the cause of our symptoms.  Since my last post I've looked further into possible autoimmune and neurological causes, but I came to back to prostatitis as the most likely cause. Also today I'm pretty sure I had a breakthrough.  I had the second line treatment for CBP, the antibiotic Azithromycin (Z-Pak), leftover from the last time I went to the doctors, and figured I would test that since I've been reading up on CBP again.  I took 500 mg immediately after orgasm and I felt fantastic today, biggest reduction in POIS symptoms I've ever had.  I'm very excited to try taking Azithromycin before orgasm, as it takes 2-3 hours to reach peak concentration.

I should also mention that Azithromycin is an anti-inflammatory, but I've tried corticosteroids lately for POIS, and although they helped a lot none of them had the effect Azithromycin did on my symptoms.  Azithromycin is an ideal antibiotic for POIS, it penetrates the blood-prostate barrier, concentrates in phagocytes which means it is delivered right to the bacteria, attacks a broad spectrum of bacteria, and has a good safety profile and a long half life.  With that being said I don't think it would work for everyone.  The first reason why is because it is a very common antibiotic, therefore azithromycin-resistant bacteria are on the rise.  Second, I think POISer's may have different bacterial infections, from which the different clusters of POIS arise from.  Azithromycin may not treat one cluster as well as it would mine. 

My POIS is mostly neurological, emotional, allergy, and muscular issues along with severe fatigue as most other POISer's have.  The only symptom that I have that I haven't seen other POISer's complain about is dark circles under my eyes, irritated eyes that sometimes get hard to keep open/bloodshot, and muscle weakness in my face.  I have another dose of Azithromycin left that I will try this week and I will give an update in this thread on how it works.  If it does I think we should update the POIS clusters thread.  We should link the symptoms to the bacteria that have been documented to cause such symptoms, and research the most effective antibiotic to treat it.  In my next post I will update my theory on the cause of POIS, and share the most effective treatments I've found yet after Azithromycin.

trusttheprocess

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 03:08:12 AM »
Out of all the theories of POIS, I have spent the most time considering the possibility of an allergic reaction to sperm.  After much consideration, I believe it is possible, but very unlikely and not the cause of POIS.  The body does create an antibody to sperm, recognizing it as a pathogen, and does cause polyclonal B cell activation (typically seen in autoimmune diseases) creating antibody clones for approximately 18 epitopes on sperm.  The specific antibody made varies among people, and some do cross react with other epitopes in the body.  "However, there is no association between chronic inflammatory or infectious diseases of the male reproductive tract and the presence of antisperm antibody in semen."  (PMID: 18715698)

Therefore I believe the much simpler explanation for POIS is a long term infection of the prostate, known as chronic bacterial prostatitis.  This is a rare but widely recognized problem in urology, and is very hard test for.  In my last posts I recognized this as the issue, but was unable to explain how the bacteria leaked through the blood-prostate barrier, and why POIS symptoms are not usually associated with chronic bacterial prostatitis.  Now I have come up with a reasonable theory to address this problem.

I believe that neurogenic bladder is the added link that transforms chronic bacterial prostatitis into POIS.  This is nerve weakness that affects the urinary tract, a result of damage due to viruses, alcoholism, diabetes, vitamin B12 deficiency (full list: https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/Patient-Caregiver-Education/Fact-Sheets/Peripheral-Neuropathy-Fact-Sheet).  Neurogenic bladder can cause a condition known as retrograde ejaculation.  During orgasm, muscles at the end of the bladder neck tighten to prevent retrograde flow of semen.  When the nerves that control this contraction are weak, some semen (mixed with infected prostatic fluid) flows into the bladder.  This causes urine after orgasm to appear cloudy, while normally it should be clear.  The primary receptor that controls the contraction of the bladder neck is the alpha 1 adrenergic receptor, therefore drugs that are agonists of this receptor like pheneylephrine should reduce the degree of retrograde ejaculation and POIS symptoms.  I've had great success with this widely available drug lately, and it only takes 30-40 mins to reach peak concentration.

Neurogenic bladder can also cause another condition known as vesicoureteral reflux, or the backward flow of urine from the bladder to the kidneys.  This happens because of increased pressure in the bladder, which can be reduced with muscaranic antagonists (such as Benedryl).  The bacteria then colonizes up the ureter into the kidneys, known as an ascending infection, impairing renal function.  Keep in mind the kidney's are responsible for filtering toxins out of the blood, so this causes you to feel like you're dying, and gives the bacteria the perfect entry system to the bloodstream.  The only way to help this is to drink water, which can be unplesant as bacteria in the kidney and bladder both cause frequent urination.

Once the bacteria hit the bloodstream a systemic inflammatory response occurs, causing mast cell activation, a cytokine storm, and lymphocyte activation.  The best way to prevent this is with mast cell stabilizers and anti-inflammatories.  If the bacteria is extracellular (does not have the capacity to survive the intracellular environment, as I think most bacteria involved in POIS are) then it will induce a Th17 immune response.  Th17 cells are incredibly important as they are strongly pro-inflammatory, and have been implicated in the pathogenesis of many inflammatory and autoimmune conditions.  Th17 cells also directly correlate with glutamate levels (possible effector mechanism), which can cause excessive activation of NMDA receptors, an important process known as NMDA excitotoxicity.  This process can kill neurons and is implicated in many neurodegenerative disorders, and likely most of the neurlogical symptoms of POIS.    Best way to prevent this is to first take supplements that reduce Th17 cells (https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/th17/#Supplements_to_Inhibit_Th17IL-17), second block NMDA receptors with supplements such as zinc and magnesium, or third increase Regulatory T cells (https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/treg/#Top_8_Picks_to_Increase_Tregs).

Muon

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 01:30:45 PM »
Or Dysautonomia--->dysfunction of Urethral sphincters--->Retrograde ejaculation--->POIS.


trusttheprocess

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 04:06:36 PM »
Or Dysautonomia--->dysfunction of Urethral sphincters--->Retrograde ejaculation--->POIS.

Yes exactly, that would be the easiest way to explain it.  However the term dysautonomia refers to any dysfunction in the autonomic nervous system (ANS), whereas neurogenic bladder is localized to dysfunction in the part of the ANS that controls the UVJ and bladder neck.  Peripheral neuropathy is the condition that causes this, and the most likely cause for this in POISer's is a virus (several very common viruses can cause this).

Hopeoneday

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 04:39:00 PM »
Well, i puled virus teory, i think that we are on wrigt track.
If all our testes is ok , than it got to be virus :D
Dr-pois.

uhtred sonof

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 02:00:36 PM »
Any updates, TTP?

Did you give up on the fungal theory altogether?

trusttheprocess

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 03:08:36 PM »
Hey uhtred sonof,

This is my first time logging on in a few months and you were the latest post, so I have good timing I guess. Sorry for the lack of updates, but I haven't had much success to report.  I've given up on the fungal theory in some ways. I still think POIS is caused by a chronic infection, but I've given up on trying to specify what type of infection or where.  There are just too many possibilities.  I used to think I could narrow down the possibilities by testing what supplements worked, but there are too many interactions to take into account.  The most concerning is the benefit we get from anti-inflammatories.  If I'm right about having a chronic infection, anti-inflammatories would make us feel better short term, but would be dangerous long term. 

So now I have significantly cut back on what supplements I use.  To treat POIS I have been trying to find and use some broad-spectrum antibacterial antiviral and antifungal supplement with a small molecular weight so it can get into the parts of the body the immune system can't.  I haven't done much research into this but apple cider vinegar seems to fit these criteria so I have been using that.  I think its helping but its too early too tell.    In addition I haven't really been using them but magnesium, zinc, vitamin C, and vitamin B are the best vitamins/minerals for POIS in my opinion.

Going less Crazy

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2018, 10:44:10 PM »
How about garlic?  It is antibacterial as well as antiinflammatory.  I actually thought I had problems with garlic in the past, but raw garlic I can eat (gut problems).  Turns out an ingredient in garlic salt was hurting my stomach.  So yeah,have you tried garlic for your theory?
My POIS managed with Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O = neuro POIS from inflammation from the gut

Current supps: microdose of zyrtec and gaia liquid olive leaf extract for sleep. Micro astragalus and 1tsp ev olive oil for energy .

trusttheprocess

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2018, 03:13:35 PM »
Yeah garlic is a great antibiotic and has some very useful properties.  I have used it recently but it also gave me stomach issues, felt like I was going to throw up.  I only used it because I had some laying around though, I think apple cider vinegar is better because it covers a wider spectrum of pathogens, and it's active ingredient acetic acid is a very small molecule at 60 g/mol. 

There is a blood-prostate barrier just like the blood-brain-barrier, and if you want something to pass it the molecule must have very specific properties.  There are many of them, it's easy to find this info, but it's not easy to evaluate whether a supplement fits them.  Molecular size is one of the most important parameters, so I'm hoping that since acetic acid has a low weight it can pass into the prostate.  I have tried a few others as well,and I think it's working, I have a lot more energy and less POIS symptoms but I don't want to say it's definitively working until my POIS is nearly gone.

Also I have a follow up appointment with a urologist in like two weeks, after telling him my symptoms he said I either had BPH or a prostate infection.  He suggested that he might prescribe a strong antibiotic called cipro which passes into the prostate very easily, however he wanted to wait on that.  If I'm not seeing a significant improvement from the ~3-4 tablespoons/day of apple cider vinegar by then I'll ask for the antibiotics.

Going less Crazy

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2018, 10:51:48 PM »
You may have been taking too much garlic.  You should have tried 1/5 of a clove with food or even less.  I'm not big on the infection theory, but have started taking it for a "supposed" candida problem, also it is "supposed" to be a prebiotic and aid in gut health, which is my problem (celiac most likely).  You think your pois is from an infection?  Do you have fevers?  I used to think mine was from Lyme, but turns out intensely focusing on diet and gut health is the only thing that truly worked.
My POIS managed with Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O = neuro POIS from inflammation from the gut

Current supps: microdose of zyrtec and gaia liquid olive leaf extract for sleep. Micro astragalus and 1tsp ev olive oil for energy .

trusttheprocess

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2018, 09:31:13 PM »
Yeah I get a little bit of a fever.  If I've learned anything from all these years of POIS research though, it's don't focus on one just one symptom and try to make conclusions based on that.

Even with high tech scientific equipment and statistical methods, studies often struggle to come to definitive conclusions.  Our perspectives and methods are often limited, and therefore science is often limited as well.

My cluster of symptoms seems to be fairly unique from things I have read, I'm not sure if what works on me will work on anyone else.  If I can give some advice though, focus on the clusters, not individual symptoms.  Try different things, make sure you use them effectively, and if they don't work move on to the next cluster.  Make sure you paying attention to any adverse effects though, even if you feel better overall.

The best treatment I've ever tried was the antibiotic Azithromycin, which is why I believe POIS to be some type of infection.  I tried it after reading about someone else that had great success with Penicillin, which is broad spectrum and can penetrate to the prostate, so I don't appear to be alone.  The antibiotic I tried is also a strong anti-inflammatory, however it gave me better relief of symptoms than Prednisone, so my conclusion was that anti-inflammatories gave symptom relief by dangerously suppressing the essential immune reaction that I believe POIS to be.  I don't want to scare anyone, so I won't go into detials, but realize anti-inflammatories can be very dangerous long term, especially for us if I'm right about my prostatitis theory (https://prostate.net/articles/can-aspirin-prevent-prostate-cancer/).

Vandemolen

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2018, 09:49:23 PM »
My prostatitis problems are bigger than my POIS. POIS gives you a few days of symotoms. But prostatis makes you sick for weeks. Even I had no sexual activity in weeks I have the same symptoms as POIS because of prostatitis. So I want to believe your theory. But how you explain that a member here had his prostate removed at the hospital and he still has POIS?
POIS since 2000. Very bad since 2008. I knew that I have POIS since June 2010. Desensitization since March 2011. I stopped with desens in July 2016. I have 50% less POIS. And only 1 day of POIS. Purified CBD works for me, but I am allergic for CBD.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2018, 10:47:36 AM »
My personal explanation will be that those posible active and underlaying infection
coulb be in brain to , besaid odher places in the body, an disturb normal proceses
in the body, metabolism , imunity, hormones...
Dr-pois.

Nas

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2018, 12:43:34 PM »
Can chronic prostatitis be the underlined cause of PE in many of us?

porthos

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2019, 06:21:12 PM »
Finally we have someone that has true progress ! I had no POIS before but i got it after i had a girlfriend with extremly candida problems in her vagina i started to have POIS because of her. I healed my pois after 2 years of struggling and i was POIS free. 2 months ago i mastrubated with soap and this soap made irritation to my urinary tract i got fever i got pain after that i got POIS again but i was POIS free ??? only way you get pois is infection inside.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2019, 06:44:13 PM »
Soap? Intresting, sulphfites,sulphfates alergens like in MCAS trigers.
When i did resarching MCAS i did trayed showering with soap
withouth sulphfates, not cure enithing but my skin after showers fell
more beter( shampoo with sulphfates make my skin some kind of wired).

Porthos, can you discribe exectly , what you did in those two years when you
suscesifuly get rid of pois? How you did it?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 08:02:29 PM by Hopeoneday »
Dr-pois.

porthos

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2019, 07:44:23 AM »
Soap? Intresting, sulphfites,sulphfates alergens like in MCAS trigers.
When i did resarching MCAS i did trayed showering with soap
withouth sulphfates, not cure enithing but my skin after showers fell
more beter( shampoo with sulphfates make my skin some kind of wired).

Porthos, can you discribe exectly , what you did in those two years when you
suscesifuly get rid of pois? How you did it?


I did nothing special i was eating junk food i was smoking but i believe i healed because of a lady she was very healthy. I believe that healthy vagina is important unhealthy vagina will effect your urinary tract thats how i got POIS. But my exgirlfriend was very healthy and healthy vagina. Her vagina healed me because my pois symptoms was reduced to 20%only it was not that heavy anymore but i was still struggling. After having sex with her my pois was 0% even we break up i continue mastrubating daily and POIS free. 2 years later i mastrubated with SOAP i got heavy infection and this infection gave me pois again...

porthos

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2019, 07:15:43 AM »
Soap? Intresting, sulphfites,sulphfates alergens like in MCAS trigers.
When i did resarching MCAS i did trayed showering with soap
withouth sulphfates, not cure enithing but my skin after showers fell
more beter( shampoo with sulphfates make my skin some kind of wired).

Porthos, can you discribe exectly , what you did in those two years when you
suscesifuly get rid of pois? How you did it?

Hopeoneday

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2019, 03:41:49 PM »
Hi Thrustthedprocess, is there new information on antibiotics you used for pois- Azithromycin (Z-Pak), is it still sussceful theraphy?

I tested again visual excitement
30min lasting (no masturbating, sex)
after about 20 days of abstinence.
The result is always - the pain as if the needle points to the prostate, small red dots under the ayes, facial change ..
Not full blown away like from ejaculation but it is in beggining.

For me, till now, infection theory is the only logicall exsplanation to date.
(If antibiotics working for you, then it is infection)

During an arousing, fluid excange in the gland starts, that induce underlaying infection.
Some kind of infection like lyme (or some other), then immune suppression, then cytokine storm --- and that lead to POIS.

For now I'm suspecting on Lyme,
becuse, all my resarching about POIS and my symptomes,  all that lead to susspicios on lyme infection and coinfections (bartonela and babesia).

I will make my new fresh tread about lyme, a hawe new hypotesis wich
explanating my virus theory,
and even vagus nerve lyme infection.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 10:25:57 AM by Hopeoneday »
Dr-pois.

demografx

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Re: Prostatitis - revisited
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2019, 07:46:44 AM »

...vagus nerve lyme infection [?]


Interesting, HOD!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 07:55:04 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business