Author Topic: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack  (Read 62707 times)

taurusthree

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #450 on: January 15, 2019, 02:48:49 PM »
Thanks for clarifications!

Almost 3 weeks on the daily total intake of below:
Vitamin B6 - 10mg;
Methylfolate - 1000mcg (will going to cut down the intake soon, currently have deficiency);
Vitamin B12 - 1000mcg;
SAM-e - 400mg;
Vitamin D - 5000IU (will going to cut down the intake soon, currently have deficiency);
Betaine - 1.5g (going to double the dose);
Vitamin C (1000mg) (can probably be beneficial for my joints and may support the immune system);

My story:
26, male. I have (and probably always had) POIS (mild - 1st day: IBS, watery eyes, random itching, brain fog and other cognitive issues; 2nd day: cognitive issues only), trio of [MCAS-POTS-hEDS] (probably inherited from maternal side), ADHD (seems to be distinctly inherited from paternal side), beta-Thalassemia minor (which potentially can contribute to the folate deficiency), allergies.
For more than a year was taking 25mg of SSRI Sertraline (which magically cured my chronic rhinitis, also helped me with my oversaturated emotions, reduced POIS by half, and overall gave me an energy). Didn't try stimulants for my ADHD, since those are banned in my country.
In 2017 I did a test for folate and homocysteine because Promethease suggested I have 2 of the MTHFR mutations (heterozygous). Though I am sceptical about the MTHFR stuff I decided to give a try. Everything was within the normal range. However a month ago the same test revealed I have low folate levels and pretty high homocysteine. My guess is - the activating antidepressant caused that. Also, recently discovered I have low levels of Vitamin D.

So I saw your post and decided to try the stack. 3 weeks after I can report the following:
1. POIS is way milder, mostly cognitive symptoms (could be my ADHD);
2. Gum bleeding during washing my teeth stopped (special thanks for this, I was really upsed by that for more than few years);
3. Overall less hEDS related pain (could be related to the antiinflammatory effect of Vitamin D, also to SAM-e/ methylation antidepressant action);
4. Less local infections (including complete elimination of feet fungus).

Your theory (alpha1 receptors overexpression) can potentially explain the following:
a. How SSRI helped with my chronic rhinitis. In my opinion the mechanism is following: [serotonin reuptake] --> [better parasympathetic tone] --> [less sympathetic tone] --> [less alpha1 receptor firing] --> ... --> [less inflammation];
b. The connection between MCAS, POTS and hEDS. So one of the teories is that hEDS-ers have elastic vessels, which don't hold up during the orthostatic stress induced higher heartbeat (which elevates further, which is the manifestation of POTS). Can't this over time potentially cause an overexpression of alpha1 receptors, so the vessels will be supported as much as possible? And this in turn may induce inflammation from slightest elevations of noradernaline - MCAS-ish symptoms.

nanna1

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #451 on: January 16, 2019, 11:06:25 PM »
Hi taurusthree,

  Your stack looks good! But I assume you are skipping the omega-3/CLA portion. That's fine as long as you are improving. I am glad to hear about your results. I also like that you are customizing dosage based on your personal vitamin deficiency. Your post will be helpful for others who may have similar vitamin deficiencies and medical test results.

  I thought your explanation of the alpha1-receptor overexpression is brilliantly stated. When I first read your post, I did not know the exact mechanism for how the a1A-adrenergic receptor would become overexpressed. I only knew what the its properties were and the similarities with what is known about POIS. You actually brought up some ideas that I did not think of. For example, your explanation could be similar/related to Hyperadrenergic POTS. Also, the connection you made to hEDS makes a lot of sense. I will try to explain what I think you are asking/saying. But please add comments and corrections so that I understand fully what you are proposing. I will start from the perspective of POIS, but I assume the following principles could also be applied to Hyperadrenergic POTS, intense excersise or intense fear.

b. The connection between MCAS, POTS and hEDS. So one of the theories is that hEDS-ers have elastic vessels, which don't hold up during the orthostatic stress induced higher heartbeat (which elevates further, which is the manifestation of POTS).
  During sexual activity vasodilation increases (for example: erection and sex flush). Epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline) is released during orgasm to produce ejaculation (Ref).

This noradrenaline release also causes Increased Heart Rate (IHR) similar to tachycardia. This is a normal part of sex physiology.

  If the total blood volume in the body is constant, an increased heart rate (IHR) means that the heart is pumping with more force and producing larger pulses in blood pressure. This IHR puts greater stress on dilated blood vessels than it does on constricted blood vessels.
  From the cylinder surface-tension equation (Laplace's Law): T=P*R, increasing the radius R also increases the surface tension stress T. So for a given blood pressure P, vasodilation (larger radius R) produces a higher surface tension stress (T) on the the blood vessel wall than vasoconstriction (smaller radius R). This increased tension can cause shear stress injury to the vasodilated blood vessels called balloon injury.


Can't this over time potentially cause an overexpression of alpha1 receptors, so the vessels will be supported as much as possible?
  As you have stated, vasoconstriction supports and protects the vessels. In response to ballon injury, norepinephrine-induced vasoconstriction protects vessels from undergoing more balloon injury than has already occurred.

"This is the first study to demonstrate enhanced adrenergic neurotransmission after balloon injury. The facilitation of adrenergic neurotransmission may be due to increased local concentrations of angiotensin II..." -Vascular Injury Augments Adrenergic Neurotransmission (RC Candipan, et. al.,1994)

 This may lead to alpha1-receptor over expression (Angiotensin II induces transcription and expression of alpha 1-adrenergic receptors in vascular smooth muscle cells, ZW Hu, et. al., 1994),  This overexpression causes vasoconstriction (reducing the vessel radius R) which results in reduced surface Tension stress (T = P*R, Laplace's Law) at the location of injury.

And this in turn may induce inflammation from slightest elevations of noradernaline - MCAS-ish symptoms.
  One side-effect of injury-induced alpha1-receptor over-expression can be chronic inflammation:
"Under normal conditions, the sympathetic neurotransmitter noradrenaline inhibits the production and release of pro-inflammatory cytokines. However, after peripheral nerve and tissue injury, pro-inflammatory cytokines appear to induce the expression of the alpha1A-adrenoceptor subtype on immune cells and perhaps also on other cells in the injured tissue. In turn, noradrenaline may act on up-regulated alpha1-adrenoceptors to increase the production of the pro-inflammatory cytokine...These mechanisms could contribute to the development of sympathetically maintained pain in conditions such as post-herpetic neuralgia, cutaneous neuromas, amputation stump pain and complex regional pain syndrome...Thus, activation of aberrantly-expressed alpha1-adrenoceptors may contribute to chronic inflammation and pain." -Neuronal changes resulting in up-regulation of alpha-1 adrenoceptors after peripheral nerve injury (PD Drummond, 2014)

  One of Dr. Waldinger's POIS studies noted that pre-mature ejaculation seemed common (56%, error=+-7%) among POIS patients being studied (MD Waldinger, et. al., 2011). Ejaculation is caused by norepinephrine binding to the alpha1-Adrenergic receptor (Ref1, Ref2). If there is vascular or smooth muscle injury in the reproductive system causing alpha1A-receptor overexpression, this could explain the pre-mature ejaculation symptoms observed by Dr. Waldinger.

  It is an interesting coincidence that exercise causes vasodilation partly by down regulating the alpha1-adrenergic receptor.
"a1-Adrenergic-receptor responsiveness was attenuated during heavy exercise. In contrast, a2-adrenergic-receptor responsiveness was attenuated even at a mild exercise intensity."
-Exercise attenuates alpha-adrenergic-receptor responsiveness in skeletal muscle vasculature (JB Buckwalter, et. al., 2001)
Exercise and fear also produce IHR by releasing epinephrine (adrenalin) and norepinephrine.

If this could explain parts of the POIS-trigger, I still would have a few questions:
  • Where is the vascular/balloon injury located?
  • What caused the original injury?
  • Why does the injury not heal now?
In terms of question 1, POIS symptoms are top-bottom asymmetric in everyone but also left-right asymmetric in some. So the inability to heal properly would have to be localized to specific vessels in the body, while not affecting healing in other blood vessel locations. I suspect that the answers to questions 2 and 3 are the same. Whatever would cause the original injury is also probably keeping it from healing, unless the original injury was a random event.

If you have any corrections or other thoughts, please share. That was interesting!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 08:59:11 PM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

aswinpras06

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #452 on: January 17, 2019, 01:39:18 AM »
Another nice finding from you, Nanna1.

If chronic injury to blood vessels is causing inflammation the most likely place is likely to be the gut vessels.

Most of us have gut problems upon orgasm and it takes a while to get healed and it never heals completely.

Glutamine,aloe juice/jel, change in diet and gut healing foods helps many of us.

So if there is some unhealed inflammation, most likely it should be in the blood vessels of the gut.


Hopeoneday

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #453 on: January 17, 2019, 07:02:08 AM »
Yeah , it could be a link with gut vesels, Muon posted link of people with
dysautonomia, its tightly conected to our symtopmes like pots etc,
and there some people is diagnosed with stomach aneurism, could be
posible that some of us hawe it, beside odher gut isues.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1417.msg13114;topicseen#msg1311

Pois damage our nerwes, cronic inflamation,
that folow systematic disbalance, gut mobility not
working, lack of nutrinents, thats why b vitamins works for some...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 09:49:54 AM by Hopeoneday »
Dr-pois.

Nas

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #454 on: January 17, 2019, 10:32:29 AM »
Good discussion guys!
I wonder do Habibou's tests correlate with this theory?

This theory has lot of sens for me , but my adrenalin results are actually really low... !  :)
I will post again my neurotransmitters results :

  January 2011

Blood :
-adrenaline           <0.50 nmol/l         < 1.00
-noradrenaline        8.53 nmol/l       < 4.00                              1443 ng/l      < 675
-dopamine            <0.50 nmol/l         <1.00


Unrina during 24h :

-adrenaline       0.02 umol/l           < 0.10
-noradrenaline   0.42 umol/l          < 0.50
-dopamine        1.34 umol/l           < 3.00

All the blood tests were done 2 hours after an O.
The red standards are the unusual ones !

January 2012 :
ONLY Urina test, morning 10 hours after an O:

DOPA                      91.50 ug/g  (160 - 240)
34DOPAC                       0.40 mg/g    (0.70 - 4.00)
HVA                          1.90 mg/g    (2.43 - 5.20)
NORADRENALIN          10.30 ug/g   (15.70 - 34.30)
MHPG                          1.50 mg/g  (1.38 - 4.15)
VMA                            1.60 mg/g  (2.10 - 3.85)
ADRENALIN                  0.98  ug/g  (1.27 - 6.10)
SEROTONIN                62.40  ug/l   (61.50 - 116.80)
5HIAA                        2.30    mg/g (2.03 - 4.26)
HVA5HIAA                  0.83            (1.25 - 2.56)

Nas

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #455 on: January 19, 2019, 08:45:45 PM »
I guess alpha-1 blockers should test if this theory holds merit.

nanna1

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #456 on: January 21, 2019, 12:43:51 AM »
Good discussion guys!
I wonder do Habibou's tests correlate with this theory?
Good question! The main thing that stands out to me from Habibou's test are his high norepinephrine levels in the blood test 2 hours after orgasm.
January 2011

Blood :
-adrenaline           <0.50 nmol/l         < 1.00
-noradrenaline        8.53 nmol/l       < 4.00                              1443 ng/l      < 675
-dopamine            <0.50 nmol/l         <1.00
Neurotransmitters are released in an activity dependent manner depending on what you are doing or thinking. So the levels should rise and fall (fluctuate) fairly quickly. Norepinephrine levels should not be elevated for two whole hours. Maybe the levels fell right after orgasm but then rose again right before the blood test. I started a thread that shows the endocrine response for these neurotransmitters here (Neuroendocrine responses to arousal and orgasm).

  Assuming that his norepinephrine levels remained elevated for at least 2 hours, one way of interpreting Habibou's neurotransmitter test is that he has reduced functioning of his Aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH) enzyme (see dopamine degradation pathway, DOPAC, HVA). I would rule out monoamine oxidase (MAO) dysfunction because his serotonin and 5HIAA are normal. I would also rule out catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) dysfunction because his DOPAC levels are low and his MHPG is normal. DOPAC does not depend on COMT (diagram1) but MHPG does diagram2). The diagram below shows the enzymes responsible for the 3-Methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (MHPG) and Vanillylmandelic acid (VMA) parameters in his urine test:

  Decreased ALDH is most common among southeast Asians and is responsible for Asian Flush. I have a friend that goes through this every time they drink alcohol. This might explain his high blood norepinephrine levels, and it could also explain his low urine DOPAC, VMA, HVA and HVA:5HIAA ratio.

  Since COMT is a methyltransferase, taking a methylation stack (SAMe, folate, lecithin, etc...) might help remove dopamine metabolites quicker. I don't have an explanation for Habibou's low urine epinephrine and norepinephrine levels, but there are many other neurotransmitter metabolites that are not measured in his test. Also it is important to remember that urine is bodily waste. I could be wrong, but I don't think that urine levels accurately describe what is going on in the blood as much as a blood test.

  In terms of the idea Taurusthree shared and I wrote about where alpha1-adrenergic receptors are over-expressed to support/protect the blood vessels through vasoconstriction, it seems that inhibiting the alpha1-receptor with an alpha-blocker would cause additional injury to the vessel. When orgasm happens, alpha1-dependent vasoconstriction at the site of injury should occur at the same time as the increased heart rate/blood pressure because norepinephrine levels control both these events. Moreover, the amount of vasoconstriction should be in proportion to the heart rate because both of these are in proportion to norepinephrine levels. So, in theory, the alpha1-receptor should be protective and vasoconstriction should be protective. Relevant bio-markers to test if there is vascular balloon injury are angiotensin II, endothelin-1 and possibly creatine kinase.

  However, when I get blood test (medical test), the nurse sticks a needle in my arm and punctures a vein in order to extract the blood. My vein heals quickly (<24 hours) without any POIS or systemic immune reaction. So I do not think that there is anything global wrong with my arteries or veins. But if alpha1-receptor overexpression is causing POIS problems, it could be a possibility that norepinephrine and alpha1 are also triggering something else that is locally latent in that portion of the blood vessel and preventing proper healing of the vessel. This is the reason that I asked the questions:
If this could explain parts of the POIS-trigger, I still would have a few questions:
  • Where is the vascular/balloon injury located?
  • What caused the original injury?
  • Why does the injury not heal now?
I don't think this thread is the best place to discuss a lot of detailed theory since many POISers here are rightfully interested in stacks. So I would prefer to discuss more detailed theories of POIS on other threads. Thanks Nas for your question!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 10:38:36 AM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

Nas

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #457 on: January 21, 2019, 04:43:25 AM »
Thanks for the detailed reply Nanna, as usual.

If you want start another thread and we can discuss this all right there. I don't to do it my self since I don't even know what would I call that thread.

I guess when it comes to the Alpha-1 blocker inquiry, Taurusthree mentioned that this constant over-expression is what leads to these inflammatory symptoms; MCAS-like symptoms. So perhaps the injury itself won't heal but the systematic symptoms can be better dealt with? Maybe I'll try an alpha-1 blocker and see if it does anything at all.

Nas

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #458 on: January 21, 2019, 05:10:40 AM »
Nanna, I also wish in the future if you tack this, this is written by Waldinger:
''The lack of a local genital skin reaction after ejaculation, but the occurrence of multiple complaints after ejaculation, and the findings of the hyposensitization treatment suggest that in POIS immunologic reactions occur due to repeated close contact during ejaculation between seminal peptides and circulating T-lymphcytes. This leads to a systemic reaction with multiple physical and cognitive complaints.''

I think we have theorized many things that POIS can be. But we rarely paid attention to what Waldinger himself thinks. After all he worked closer with POIS than anyone of us.

I feel like this comment is his theory but incredibly summarized, and I wish it gets better explained. If POIS is actually an auto-immune disease, then how do we get systematic symptoms instead of localized ones?

whateverestest

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #459 on: March 14, 2019, 05:14:30 PM »
Do you guys think it should work on Emotional symptoms like Social Anxiety? I get this for a couple of days after O, I'm totally less self-confident then...

What do you think guys?

Nanna1?
...

nanna1

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #460 on: March 15, 2019, 06:53:25 PM »
Hi Whateverestest,

  I also used to have social anxiety that occurred after sexual activity (during POIS). I did not associate it with POIS though. My symptoms are listed here (post). I do not see the benefit of focusing on individual symptoms. Symptoms correlate well with the location of a disease in the body, but they do not correlate well with actual causes of disease. For example, if someone gets:
(1) hit in the knee cap with a hammer or (2) develops cancer in the knee cap or (3) gets an infection in the knee cap, the symptoms will be mostly the same (pain in the knee, inflammation in the knee, immune cell activation in the knee, etc...). Even if there are some differences in symptoms, most of the symptoms will still be a function of the location in the body and not unique to an actual cause. So treating disease based on symptoms can be tricky. In my opinion, medical test give a more accurate tool for narrowing down potential causes and determining which treatments may be helpful (see medical test patterns post). 

  One way around this could be to seek the counsel of a professional psychiatrist. They may be able to perform test to determine why social anxiety occurs after sexual activity and give you options for treatment. Social anxiety can sometimes be caused by a depletion of GABA and dopamine. The depletion of certain neurotransmitters can occur after porn use.
This is what porn does to your dopamine levels.


While porn is being viewed, dopamine levels remain elevated. But when the porn goes off, dopamine tanks. It's called the Coolidge effect.

  In my case, stopping porn cured my orgasm-induced social anxiety, but it did not cure my POIS. I do not think that POIS is caused by porn addiction. People develop POIS even when there is no porn use, and your anxiety may have nothing to do with viewing pornography. But I think that porn addiction (a known cause of social anxiety, link1, link2) should be ruled out before experimenting with supplements and drugs. From my experience and from reading post by others, it seems that POIS can aggravate other unrelated diseases. There are many post on the forum where POISers have multiple unrelated diseases (i.e. fungal infection, food allergy, physical injury, general stress, etc...). Getting professional treatment for (or curing) the other diseases may also reduce some of the symptoms experienced during POIS, even if it does not cure or treat POIS directly.

  In general, I think that the best starting point for eliminating POIS symptoms is maintaining good health. This is not what most people want to hear but it is true. So healthy diet, drinking water, getting adequate sleep and reducing emotional stress. It wasn't until I started taking the POIS Cascade stack that I could exercise without getting sick, but now I exercise 2 to 3 times a week.

  The two stacks in the original post are independently focused on stopping the inflammatory cascade (arachidonic acid cascade) which I believe triggers POIS. These stacks do not treat symptoms, they only prevent symptoms. So waiting to take the Betaherpesvirinae stack after an orgasm will not help much. It has to be taken 2 hours before POIS is triggered to prevent the trigger from occurring. For me this also prevented all the symptoms. The instructions for each stack is very specific. And the timing and dosing information is important for the effectiveness of each stack (timing post).

Note: You should check with your medical doctor to make sure that these or other supplements do not interfere with any drugs you may be taking. Also check with your physician to see if any pre-existing health condition prevents you from taking these supplements/drugs.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 09:58:13 PM by nanna1 »
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

whateverestest

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #461 on: March 17, 2019, 06:10:59 PM »
Hi Whateverestest,

  I also used to have social anxiety that occurred after sexual activity (during POIS). I did not associate it with POIS though. My symptoms are listed here (post).

Did it just occure after sexual activity or orgasm? Did it just occure or last for the next days? Because in my case it lasts for 6-8 days after orgasm. And in my case I could have sex on and on as long as I didn't have orgasm (or come very very close to it, if that's possible:P) I wouldn't have any symptoms at all..

  In my case, stopping porn cured my orgasm-induced social anxiety, but it did not cure my POIS. I do not think that POIS is caused by porn addiction. People develop POIS even when there is no porn use, and your anxiety may have nothing to do with viewing pornography. But I think that porn addiction (a known cause of social anxiety, link1, link2) should be ruled out before experimenting with supplements and drugs.

In my case it didn't. I still will have anxiety even after NE. Currently I technically don't watch porn. It sometimes happens though, but only cause I developed some kind of IMO, "obsesive-compulsive-like behaviour" that after having orgasm I masturbate 1-2 more times. Don't ask me why, maybe it's partially because that relieves me from the tension (and fear of next days) caused by previous Orgasm, maybe it's an excuse that I keep giving myself "if I'm gonna feel bad anyways...".

But anyways. I drastically reduced watching porn quite some time ago (just because of my point of view on that matter), and that didn't help. Mostly I get orgasm from NE or when by myself, (no porn) and that triggers anxiety as well.

Symptoms correlate well with the location of a disease in the body, but they do not correlate well with actual causes of disease. For example, if someone gets:
(1) hit in the knee cap with a hammer or (2) develops cancer in the knee cap or (3) gets an infection in the knee cap, the symptoms will be mostly the same (pain in the knee, inflammation in the knee, immune cell activation in the knee, etc...). Even if there are some differences in symptoms, most of the symptoms will still be a function of the location in the body and not unique to an actual cause.

That brings me hope that there actually is a point in testing stacks that people and you suggest here and there even if my POIS symptoms vary drastically. I will continue trying. Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 06:14:07 PM by whateverestest »

dizzy

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #462 on: March 18, 2019, 02:57:17 PM »
Regarding porn, masturbation and the connection with anxiety, perhaps this (long) story can provide some guidance:

https://101nootropics.com/nofap-benefits-and-advice/
Male. POIS symptoms: red eyes, ear-pain, anxiety, speech problems, pale/ugly skin, stiff neck, double chin, tinnitus, light sensitivity. POIS even after stimulation without O.