Author Topic: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack  (Read 46532 times)

thaniss

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #285 on: June 02, 2018, 04:35:55 AM »
Just found this post on cure zone about Adrenal Fatigue, histamine and adrenaline(pois causes) and why niacin works for some people




"This is because the enzyme that degrades adrenaline, the enzyme COMT, requires niacin as a cofactor. It actually requires two things: SAMe and niacin, and giving niacin helps with both of those things.

I think that some people here might be interested in knowing why, so I will explain, because I think it also explains one of the underlying contributors to adrenal fatigue and how people with adrenal fatigue can improve their condition even more by just taking niacin more than once a day. By the way, I think you should be able to get the same effect using niacinamide without getting the flush. I stumbled on to all this while I was leaning how to help my son with fatigue and depression.

You (this is a general you, not directed any specific person) have to ask yourself ?Why do I have so much adrenalin?? Well, I think the reason is that you have histamine problems. Probably gut dysbiosis is the underlying cause and either gut bacteria are releasing histamine, especially when you eat, or leaky gut is causing food sensitivities causing a release of histamine, which may or may not give you obvious symptoms.

High histamine in the body requires high adrenaline to balance it, or your blood pressure would drop too low.

So why can't you get rid of the histamine so you don't need to make so much adrenaline?

There are two biological pathways to get rid of histamine. (And vitamin C gets rid of it for a little while if you take a ton of it.) The pathway that is designed only to get rid of histamine is the enzyme DAO, which is made in the gut and in other parts of the body. This pathway responds quickly to changes in histamine levels. The other pathway ? methylation ? does many things and responds quite slowly to changes in histamine. It takes a methyl group from SAMe and degrades the histamine with it. So if your DAO pathway is blocked, and you have to use the methylation pathway to get rid of histamine ? your body can't adjust the levels of SAMe to the constantly changing amounts of histamine, and part of the time you don't have enough and part of the time you have too much SAMe. At night the SAMe levels rise as your histamine levels drop and the production of SAMe stays the same, leading to an excess of adrenaline which you can't get rid of because although you have enough SAMe, your niacin has been used up by the DAO pathway in trying to get rid of the histamine.

So you will probably be saying ?What!?, niacin isn't a cofactor for DAO! DAO cofactors are Vitamin C, B6 and copper!? Well, that is true, but DAO is inhibited by its own product: imidazole acetaldehyde. Since the enzyme that degrades imidazole acetaldehyde, aldehyde dehydrogenase, requires NAD(P)+ (from niacin) to function, a shortage of niacin will lead to a feedback inhibition of DAO when the levels of imidazole acetaldehyde become too high. Magnesium may also be used as a cofactor in addition to niacin.

The niacin is needed for a step below the DAO step in the same pathway to get rid of histamine.

References below:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.full
See Figure 2.

?Histamine can be metabolized by extracellular oxidative deamination of the primary amino group by diamine oxidase (DAO) (2) or intracellular methylation of the imidazole ring by histamine-N-methyltransferase (HNMT) (3). Therefore, insufficient enzyme activity caused by enzyme deficiency or inhibition may lead to accumulation of histamine. Both enzymes can be inhibited by their respective reaction products in a negative feedbackloop ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldehyde_dehydrogenase


?The active site binds to one molecule of an aldehyde and an NAD(P)+ that functions as a cofactor. ?

So a lack of niacin is not only preventing you from getting rid of adrenaline, it's preventing you from getting rid of all your excess histamine, which is probably why you have excess adrenaline in the first place. And your need to get rid of the histamine is draining your niacin levels. So if you take niacinamide 3 times a day instead of just at night, you might just keep your histamine levels down to where you don't have to produce so much adrenaline! And your SAMe levels will be much more stable through the day if your histamine levels are kept low and you won't need as many supplements for the methylation cycle, because your SAMe won't be getting used up getting rid of tons of histamine. And your adrenal glands would probably enjoy not having to make so much adrenaline to balance out the histamine, and after they get a good rest, they might not be so fatigued!

P.S. You might need some extra P5P (B6) and also a couple grams of vitamin C a few time a day because I can tell you from experience that it does not work without the vitamin C. (I mean he DAO pathway won't work without vitamin C, you will still get rid of adrenaline during the night without Vitamin C, because by then the histamine will be gone already by the time you feel the adrenaline. I guess that as long as the adrenaline is balancing the histamine, you don't really feel it because it isn't in excess until the histamine is gone.)"



I also remember one user Haidcat writing that niacin works because it blocks noradrenaline convertion to adrenaline
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 04:39:17 AM by thaniss »

Quantum

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #286 on: June 02, 2018, 09:35:19 AM »
Hi thaniss, and welcome to poiscenter !

As you have seen in this post about Nanna's stack, methylation suport have been proven beneficial for some members. 


Niacin role in POIS is still not well defined, because there are many possible mechanism for its effectiveness against POIS, but as you know, there are many members who have benefit by using it in prevention. 

HAve you tried any of these?

About histamine metabolism, it is through that vitamin C helps getting rid of histamine excess, through DAO support  ( I use this if I have some signs of allergy, and it does help).  Vitamin B2, is also a cofactor for DAO, so it will support its activity as well.  Methyl support will help eliminate histamine too, as it supports the main histamine elimination pathway, which is using HNMT.

For someone, like me, having a very slow Acetaldehyde Dehydrogenase enzyme, ALDH,( this shows, in particular, when you have a very low tolerance to alcohol, like I do), boosting DAO activity will produce more acetaldehyde, so more work for ALDH.   So, when I need ALDH to be very active ( when taking some alcohol or suporting DAO for histamine elimination),  I take some B1 ( about 25 to 50 mg) to help support ALDH activity.  As a bonus, Vitamine C, taken for DAO support, is also a cofactor of Acetyl Dehydrogenase, ALDH2.  I can add some cysteine or NAC ( n-acetyl-cysteine) because they also help getting rid of acetaldehyde by neutralizing it directly (acetaldehyde is a toxic by-product).

As often stated, there is not only one type of POIS but if one's symptoms are at least in part caused by excess histamine and excess acetaldhyde by-product, supporting HNMT, DAO and ALDH will be beneficial.

You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Hopeoneday

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #287 on: June 04, 2018, 07:51:07 AM »
So I been quiet and thought to give good news to all.  I thought to have finally found my POIS solution, after many many temporary victories over last decade.  For last 2 months, a powerful drug cocktail containing active Glutathione 1000 mg  (combined with strong pre-cursor to Glutathione pack of Cystein, Glutamine, Glycine, Alpha Lipoic)  it worked as magic potion.  First month POIS 100% gone despite getting 4-5 o's in a single day.  In one month, I had about 16 pois free episodes of o's.  However, since then its effectiveness has slowly waned.  Last week it was not effective at all.  Experience has taught me that POIS is very very tricky and it will trick you with your somatic processes, like your brain can control POIS if you have strength and strong belief.  But this tahiti does not last long and your brain gives up eventually and back you are to your sick state where POIS manifests for 7 days.  So I am back to drawing board.

Questions:
1.  Has anyone tried for pois, 'Viagra' or similar vasodilator with success or failure?
2.  Has anyone tried "SOD" - Superoxide dismutases?

https://www.drdavidwilliams.com/why-you-need-glutathione

It?s also possible in many instances that the drop in glutathione levels may be related to exposure to heavy metals like mercury, lead, and cadmium. These metals steal sulfur groups from enzymes, protein compounds and/or peptides such as glutathione S-transferase (GST), an enzyme dependent on glutathione that studies have shown provides protection against the spread of cancer cells.
Dr-pois.

demografx

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #288 on: June 04, 2018, 10:23:49 AM »

Has anyone tried for pois, 'Viagra' or similar vasodilator with success or failure?


About 10 years ago, I thought I was having great
POIS-free success with Levitra (identical to Viagra), but then...it just stopped working.



« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 10:27:53 AM by demografx »
Usually have major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.

Observer

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #289 on: June 04, 2018, 11:17:37 AM »

Has anyone tried for pois, 'Viagra' or similar vasodilator with success or failure?


About 10 years ago, I thought I was having great
POIS-free success with Levitra (identical to Viagra), but then...it just stopped working.

Niacin also works as a vasodilator. Beets, garlic or ginger work as well as vasodilator (thus lowering the blood pressure, as vessels open, there is less resistance for the blood to pass through them).

All of them seem to have worked at least to some extent, according to some members.

swell

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #290 on: June 04, 2018, 02:39:55 PM »
Thankyou nanna1, Quantum, hopeoneday, demografx for your tips.  nanna1 I do am taking a general mineral supplement which contain all minerals you wrote, I checked label it only has 100% daily values.  Do I need to take mega-quantities?  because the liposomal glutathione stack I am taking is a mega-quantity?

swell

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #291 on: June 04, 2018, 02:45:44 PM »
I have tried Niacin (nicotonic acid 500 mg - which cause flush) with minor success.  People with skin POIS like me can benefit.   I only take it on POIS day.   But I do take Nicotinomide Riboside 100mg daily.  It helps develop NAD+ in your body.   Does anyone know if that is equally good for POIS?

demografx

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #292 on: June 04, 2018, 10:37:17 PM »

... all this makes me suspect that POIS is also an autoimmune disease.


I think you have a lot of company here :)
Usually have major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.

dizzy

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #293 on: June 08, 2018, 03:31:09 PM »
Nice to read the theories in this thread.

What I was wondering about: is there any way these theories can be tested, like by having blood-work done?
Male. POIS symptoms: red eyes, ear-pain, anxiety, speech problems, pale/ugly skin, stiff neck, double chin, tinnitus, light sensitivity. POIS even after stimulation without O.

swell

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #294 on: June 09, 2018, 06:42:53 PM »
Does anyone have experience taking Pregnenolone.  I searched internet and there were some links to this very pois forum.  Why do some people advice against taking it?  I read about risk of Heart/Kidney disease, but then I also read it is Anti-aging?

swell

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #295 on: June 09, 2018, 06:54:23 PM »
Not expert here.  But blood work would reveal significant biomarkers to your health but not everything.  Mitochondrial, cellular level health issues might not be detectable in a blood test.  After all blood work only detect what is in blood only at a given time, just like urine test detect what is in urine only at a given time.  A cellular biopsy would be more complete.

Nice to read the theories in this thread.

What I was wondering about: is there any way these theories can be tested, like by having blood-work done?

nanna1

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #296 on: June 13, 2018, 12:19:35 AM »
Nice to read the theories in this thread.

What I was wondering about: is there any way these theories can be tested, like by having blood-work done?

Hi dizzy,
 The answer to your question is YES! It is possible to rule out potential causes of POIS with blood test, MRI/CAT scans and other test. However, it is not so easy to prove a cause of POIS. So a process of elimination approach may be an effective way to test the theory.
  A link to my blood test results can be found here (Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results) along with test results of others. So you can use these test results as a guide to eliminate things/ideas/theories that probably are not related to the cause of POIS.
  Also, other ideas for future test can be found here (Parameter input from members). Thanks for your question. I hope this was helpful.

certainlypois2

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #297 on: June 13, 2018, 12:24:35 PM »
nanna1, Is fish like tilapia and salmon okay to substitute for meats.

nanna1

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #298 on: June 14, 2018, 11:16:30 PM »
nanna1, Is fish like tilapia and salmon okay to substitute for meats.

Hi certainlypois2,

  Good question. It may depend on the source of fish. Wild-caught fish tend to be high in omega-3, while farm-raised fish tends to be high in omega-6. The reason for this is that small fish (in the wild, oceans and lakes) get their fat from eating algae and aquatic plants which are high in omega-3. Larger (wild) fish get their omega-3 from eating smaller wild fish.
  Fish that are farm raised are often fed animal stock or some other non-green protein source. So their food source is high in omega-6. I would stay away from any fish products that do not explicitly say "wild caught". Most of the fish where I live comes from a fish farm, so I tend to avoid it. But your case may be different. I hope this helps.

nanna1

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Re: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
« Reply #299 on: July 11, 2018, 09:38:46 AM »
Herpes Virus targeted stack:
  Hi All, I recently wrote a summary/hypothesis of what I believe could be causing my personal POIS symptoms in a post on Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS. In the POIS Cascade Stack thread, I compiled a stack that reflects my personal health philosophy and life goals. But, below is a stack that is solely based on what my test results say would be the best combination of supplements and drugs. It targets specific triggering mechanism of cytomegalovirus (CMV, HHV-5) and HHV-6 herpes viruses which are reactivated by neurotransmitters that cause PGE2 induced vascular stretching (RefSE). After looking at my test results and angiogram-MRI, carefully going over test results of others, I tried the following stack:

Taken 45 minutes prior to sexual activity (prepack):
Vasoconstrictors:
---Excedrin (acetaminophen 250mg, aspirin 250mg, caffeine 65mg)

Methylators:
---S-Adenosyl methionine/SAM-e (200mg)
---Folate (200mcg)
---pyridoxine HCl/B6 (2mg)
---Cyanocobalamin/B12 (>100mcg)

NF-kB/cytokine regulator:
---vitamin D3 (2000IU)

Single trial notes:
1. After the O, there was some small drainage in my right nostral. I sniffed once and it went away. No symptoms for 15min.
2. Approximately, 20min after O, my skin started to tingle as if POIS was coming on. There was new drainage in my nose and I sneezed once. Then I took a second dose of Excedrin. Within 20min of the second Excedrin dose (this is after the O), all the of the symptoms went away. No drainage, no headache, no sneezing, 100% symptom free. I did feel tired, so went to sleep for 2 hours (long nap). But after waking up I did not feel any of the linguring fatigue associated with POIS.
3. Now it is the second day, and I am still completely free of POIS symptoms without taking any supplements (not even vitamin D3).

  Most people are cautious about posting results of a single trial, but I have been testing and using vasoconstrictors (indomethacin, caffeine) for over a year now. So I know that they work. According to the reasearch, it is not the inhibition of blood vessel permeabilty that stops the virus activation and inflammation. So not all vasoconstrictors will work. But rather, the vasoconstrictors have to have specific properties that block NF-kB and COX signaling (RefSE). I discuss this in more detail here. Also it seems that the fact that so many of the stacks on this forum stop working after a while is indicative of drug-resistance, which is a known property of pathogens.

The below supplements were not taken in the above trial, but can be stacked. However, consult your doctor before stacking multiple vasoconstricting agents as they can increase the risk of heart attack or stroke.
Enhancements:
---Trimethylglycine/TMG (methyl-donor) (2g)
---Indomethacin (COX inhibitor/antioxidant) (50mg)
---propranolol (beta2-blocker, blocks PGE2 induced vasodilation) (see personal doctor for details)

  I and others on this forum have use indomethacin. It is so far the single most effective drug/supplement that I have tried (my indomethacin trial). But I am concerned about its long-term safety. That is the only reason why I don't used indomethacin. Excedrin is safer and as a compound drug, I find that taking two Excedrin doses 1 hour apart (before/after O) is more effective than single dose indomethacin. Indomethacin was shown to prevent CMV reactivation due to vascular stretching (RefSE) and in one study it was the second most effective drug at preventing HSV-1 reactivation (Ref).

  Methyl-donors and specifically S-Adenosyl methionine (SAM-e) reduce blood levels of histamine. In this way, SAM-e helps to constrict blood vessels (Ref). Moreover SAM-e and folate are associated with improved endothelial function
(Ref).

Final note, vasoconstrictors can increase your risk of heart attack or stroke. CMV and HHV-6 infections of the arteries do increase the risk of atherosclerosis. So consult a doctor before stacking multiple vasoconstrictors.

Update: I made a mistake in the amounts of methyl-donors that I originally posted. I have corrected the amounts.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 01:16:32 AM by nanna1 »