POIS treatment: theory & supplement stack

[Rinat]

Nanna, thanks for your answer. Recently I used vitamin b12 -9 mcg, b6-6 mg, thiamine-5 mg and Glycine-300 mg. My fatigue and back pain almost disappeared

[nanna1]

That's great Rinat! I'm glad you solved the issue. I'm sure your solution will help others.

That's fine certainlypois2 (400 iu of vitamin D3), Some people get enough vitamin D3 from sun (UV light) exposure or dairy products. I think the most important thing is to not be D3 deficient. I typically take my D3 with with the omega-3s at breakfast and lunch, but not close to bedtime.

[Nas]

He Nanna
I asked you previously about weather taking the two stacks only one time a day even on orgasm days to save money is ok ? and if the two times a day stacks may take a month to show full potential, will that mean that taking them only once a day would take two months to show full potential ? or do I need to take them two times for full effectivness ?

[nanna1]

He Nanna
I asked you previously about weather taking the two stacks only one time a day even on orgasm days to save money is ok ? and if the two times a day stacks may take a month to show full potential, will that mean that taking them only once a day would take two months to show full potential ? or do I need to take them two times for full effectivness ?

Hi Nas,

  I could be wrong, but I can only see that strategy working if the biological half-life of the supplements in the blood was 2 months. For the general public, I'll just mention that the "half-life" is a math-model of exponential decay which is pretty accurate for making quick approximation for blood levels of drugs. The water-solubles usually have a half-life that is on the order of a few hours. Vitamin B12 is the exception in that its half-life in the blood is about 5 days. Fat-solubles tend to have a half-life on the order of a few days.

  The main point is that you need equal blood levels of the supplements to get equal effects. For example, vitamin D3 has a half-life of 15 days. We can do a linear approximation and say a single dose of D3 at 2000IU over one week will produce similar blood levels of D3 as two doses of 1000IU (taken 7 days apart) over 2 weeks. However, after the half-life time point (15 days), this linear approximation to the "half-life model" is no longer good because in reality the D3 blood levels are decaying exponentially. This is a hypothetical example since in the actual stack, D3 is taken daily.

  So I would think that the short half-lives of supplements prevent a linear conversion of blood levels and effectiveness from 1 month to 2 months as you have proposed. However, your idea is worth trying. While I believe from my experience that both doses have to be taken daily, it could be that I am taking more of one of the supplements than what is necessary to get POIS relief, and you may find a lower effective dose. Please share anything you find out from any modifications to the POIS Cascade Stack. I may try it and lower the dosing in the original post.

Here is an example of how half-life is interpreted for carbon dating:

[Nas]

Hi Nanna
That's very interesting but it's been a month and I still have symptoms after masturbation. Social situation is continuing to improve though slowly but surely, same for cogntive. It's probably because masturbating once a week is helping in accumilating the posative effects, but generally I think when I feel that the symptoms are completely halting and not improving is probably where I'll start doubling down. Plus I'm waiting for the lecithine to arrive because I only take 600mg of GPC due to its strong side effects that I wish to avoid.

[demografx]

Nanna, I received a message from yet another POISCenter Member. He’s having good results thus far with your method!

[codeguy]

Hi nanna1, your solution is really impress. My main POIS symptoms are fatigue, tired/dry eyes and hard to concentrate, memory problem. May I try these supplements?. Thanks.

[fathom]

hi Nanna1, your tips are very useful.  Question:

If I start using DMEA 100mg every day.  Do I still Alpha-GPC 600mg daily (which I am right now)?
The DMEA I hear recommended dosage is like 25 - 50mg daily, though I'll be taking 100 mg daily.

[codeguy]

hi Nanna1, where are you now, we miss u much 

[nanna1]

Nanna, I received a message from yet another POISCenter Member having good results thus far with your method!

Hi demografx, thanks for passing the info on!

Hi codeguy, feel free to try the stack. Just remember to drink plenty of water with the water soluble supplements. 

hi Nanna1, where are you now, we miss u much 

Sorry I have been very busy with work, so I don't have the time to post consistently. I currently have collaborations with 3 different research groups (3 separate/simultaneous projects). And I am trying to get my own research interest funded. Lots of work. Thanks for asking

Hi fathom, Thanks for the question. I have had bad experiences with both DMEA and Centrophenoxine (DMEA-pCPA). They consistently caused me psychological depression at 500mg-600mg daily. Other people have also reported depression from these supplements as well. I know you are taking 100mg, but I'm not sure what effect this smaller dose would have. It could be that the 25 - 50mg range is a sweet spot of POIS benefit without depression, but I'm not sure.

When taking DMEA, consider the methyl group math
There is a popular myth on the internet that DMEA (Di-Methyl EthanolAmine, 2 methyl groups) increases choline production. I could not find any research articles to back this claim up. DMEA, which only has two methyl groups, cannot increase choline (3 methyl groups) without receiving a methyl group from TMG (Tri-Methyl Glycine, 3 methyl groups).

(supplement name, #methyl groups, #phosphate groups)

• CDP-choline, 3, 2
• alphaGPC, 3, 1
• phosphatidylcholine, 3, 1
• TMG/betaine, 3, 0
• Centrophenoxine, 2, 0
• DMAE, 2, 0
• creatine, 1, 0

If you take large doses of DMEA the body will use your the natural reserves of TMG/betaine in the liver to donate a methyl group to DMEA. So, I do not consider DMEA a methyl donor. In fact, it could negate the effect of methyl donors like TMG. Moreover, the choline produced in the liver cannot cross the blood-brain-barrier.

The only benefit that I see from taking DMEA orally is that it is a structural part of the phospholipid bilayer (see original post). But then again, so are phosphatidylcholine and alphaGPC.

[codeguy]

Thanks nanna1, I'm using anti-depression which is 100mg sertraline each day. Is it OK?

[fathom]

Thanks nanna1, my post might have some inaccuracies which lead you to it, but I am referring to DHEA and not DMEA which I think are quite different.  So if I do try DHEA (100mg), I can keep taking AlphaGPC as normally right? or are you saying that DHEA harmful effect to choline absorption are significant that I must not use it concurrent. 

nanna1, I cannot help thank you, you are wizard and have helped me on my paresis issue that no doctor has had.  I wish you so best.  One VERY important question if you please do address this one to your best:  I am considering to use this DHEA solely for a weird reason it may seem to others.  But I am very timid/fearful/sensitive in real-world (which I hate very much).  It is the root-cause of all the stresses/anxieties which have played havoc with my health, POIS, gastric issues, fatigue, etc.  This timidity/fear/sensitiveness to even minor events is also root-cause of my speech issues.   I read a research that fearless or resilient or brave people have even higher surges of stress harmones (cortisol and noradrenaline) than normal population.  What is chemically unique about them is that they have high levels of DHEA (which mutes the negative aspects of daily and situational stress, while keeping the positive aspects of stress).  This resilient and brave people also have high levels of Neuropeptide Y which binds to noradrenaline, preventing the negative aspects of noradrenaline while allowing it to keep amping up their performance.   

However since, Neuropeptide Y is still being researched and not available for human use I think, DHEA is a common supplement and its safe for human consumption and body builders use it, therefore it is one thing I can try to get brave   Do you agree with this bravery hypothesis?  Or do you have other suggestions?  (FYI: I do take Vyvanse 70mg for my Attention Deficit (which primarily increases dopamine and somewhat noradrenaline in brain) and that helps me become a little confident, but its not enough effect).

[nanna1]

Hi codeguy, I do not know much about prescription medications and I am not a medical doctor. So I cannot comment on specifically on sertraline. Sorry about that

Hi fathom, I do not know of any significant interactions between DHEA and alpha GPC. Both of them are produced and stored by the body in some quantity independent of whether you supplement them. However, pregnenolone is safer and probably more effective than DHEA for POIS related symptoms. I have taken pregnenolone and can vouch for its efficacy against POIS and other forms of inflammation. I do not take it currently (why add another pill?). Pregnenolone is safer because it does not have its own receptor, It is instead converted to active steroids (DHEA and progesterone) when hormone levels become low or stored as inactive steroids (DHEAS and PREGS) if hormone levels become high. (see bolded hormones in the below figure)

I personally would not supplement with hormones on a daily basis (except vitamin D3). I only tried pregnenolone briefly as a one-pill prepack.

Neuropeptide Y might not ever be available in pill form because it is a peptide (string of amino acids). Peptides longer than three amino acids usually do no get absorbed intact from the intestines to the blood stream. Peptides are usually injected.

The most effective OTC supplement to eliminate fear that I know of is methylene blue. It works primarily by directly and indirectly boosting the body's energy production efficiency.

• Effects of post-session administration of methylene blue on fear extinction and contextual memory in adults with claustrophobia.
• Methylene blue facilitates the extinction of fear in an animal model of susceptibility to learned helplessness.
• Preventing the return of fear using reconsolidation updating and methylene blue is differentially dependent on extinction learning
• Extinction Memory Improvement by the Metabolic Enhancer Methylene Blue
• Enhancing Extinction Learning in Posttraumatic Stress Disorder With Brief Daily Imaginal Exposure and Methylene Blue: A Randomized Controlled Trial.

I personally drink methylene blue if I have to give a talk. Drinking it ~30min before a presentation helps to remove stage-fright and it also helps me recall the info that I am speak about. It is a weird phenomenon to experience, but I feel almost fearless on methylene blue and my capacity for handling stress is much greater. I mixed my own methylene blue solution using about 1/4 the concentration as this guy ->http://www.brainprotips.com/methylene-blue-nootropic/ (scroll down). My powder source is here. But if you are not used to measuring powder, then just buy a prepared solution Methylene Blue Solution (30 mL) .

Fear Extinction Coctail (mix inside of a clear container/water bottle):

• 3 Tbs of lemon juice 100%
• 1 cup of apple juice
• 1 drop of methylene blue
• Expose to direct sunlight for 1 minute
• Optional add on: niacinamide (100mg to 500mg)

With all that said, methylene blue does not help my POIS symptoms. Also, it is a mild MAOI, so there is possible interaction with other MAOI and SSRI.

Two other options for fear reduction that I am aware of:
- h1-histamine blockers like Allegra can also help reduce fear before a performance.
- journaling, writing down your fears and other emotions (this one has a lot of research behind it)

I hope this helps.[/list]

[codeguy]

Hi nanna1, I decided to try your solution even if it's risk. I can't live with my current state. My eyes are dry, burning, fatigue, tears alot esspecially when working with computer. Feel like when i have flu and still trying to focus the screen (only on eyes).
I notice that it's worse after an orgam and 3-5 days after that O too. Some days it suddenly becomes better so I can work with computer very well these days.

[Quantum]

The most effective OTC supplement to eliminate fear that I know of is methylene blue. It works primarily by directly and indirectly boosting the body's energy production efficiency.
(...)
I personally drink methylene blue if I have to give a talk. Drinking it ~30min before a presentation helps to remove stage-fright and it also helps me recall the info that I am speak about. It is a weird phenomenon to experience, but I feel almost fearless on methylene blue and my capacity for handling stress is much greater. I mixed my own methylene blue solution using about 1/4 the concentration as this guy ->http://www.brainprotips.com/methylene-blue-nootropic/ (scroll down).
(...)
With all that said, methylene blue does not help my POIS symptoms. Also, it is a mild MAOI, so there is possible interaction with other MAOI and SSRI.

Considering that members here are often taking antidepressant medication, and may also use OTC herbs like St-John-Wort, I have to state that there is a CHANCE FOR SEVERE INTERACTION WITH METHYLENE BLUE 

There is also a high potential for interactions between certain food and methylene blue.

So, any member must thoroughly read the following warning form FDA, and consult with a health practitioner before using methylene blue:

https://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm276119.htm

and also, for the food to be avoided with methylene blue, which is a MAOI, see:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/expert-answers/maois/FAQ-20058035


The fact that nanna1 does not take any serotonin-related drug, or never had any problem or interaction with methylene blue vs food or medication while using it from time to time, does not mean that another member will not have any problem with it either.  In some cases, a member could end up with a bad reaction, and some cases of serotoninergic syndrome, a very severe reaction, have been reported when combining methylene blue with drugs acting on serotonin. Note that those severe reactions usually occur following intravenous methylene blue administration , but caution is advised.  So, safety first, consult with your physician or health advisor before trying any methylene blue, even at low dose like what nanna1 is taking.

See also this thread from 2014 for more information:  http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1551.msg14569#msg14569

It is clear that nanna1 has nothing but good intentions, and that the doses he takes are low compared to intravenous methylene blue administration, but what is suitable for one person may be dangerous for another.  For example, a measuring error lin the preparation, leading to a large intake of methylene blue, could lead to a dramatic result. 

[/list][/list]

[fathom]

Thanks much nanna1.   The diagram for DHEA is beautiful (I cancelled my order), it made me realize that it also increases DHT levels.  And since I'm taking DHT-inhibitor (Finesteride for hair-loss) and keeping my hair is important to me

Thanks Quantum for your valuable insights.   I have not ever taken an anti-depressant, though my psychiatrist had advised me to consider it.   I have to so much credit nanna1 stack, after I was in a traumatic car accident, docs told me of expensive reconstructive procedures as the only cure to correct my facial nerve, and yet nanna1's stack strengthened my nerve over a month-usage.

I have a question on what your perspectives are on:
5-HTP vs SSRI's.

I read articles that SSRI's are not as effective as simple 5-Htp 200-300 mg supplements are.  But then I also hear that some supplements only act for a short interval and then go dud, whereas prescription meds provide that smooth sustainable coverage.

Last question is tricky:  Do you think 400 mg SAM-e (which is very imp to me than any prescribed med), which also increases neurotransmitters necessitate an:
- adjustment of Vyvanse dosage (a dopamine and norapinephrine  increaser)
- and should I start on an SSRI for e.g. 50mg, is there an approximate % to adjust SSRI's dosage by. 
(I do plan discussing it with doc, but I also know from past experience, they do not take a vitamins serious.  Cleveland clinics even laughed at the vitamins I was taking and telling them all about.  And well since my Rx meds are optional anyway and I adjust dosage myself sometimes, so its very helpful to know, if there is some approximate formula to take SAM-e into account, because from my personal experience, heck SAM-e is a brilliant healthy vitamin)

[Nas]

Hey Nanna, Quantum
So I've been lately suffering from fast heartbeat issue. My heartbeat rate is ~120 bpm and yesterday I couldn't even sleep because of it. Until now nothing seems to be wrong with me but I'll be waiting on further tests. The question that I'd like to ask is if the supplements that are mentioned here could cause these issues ? I only take them about 1-2 times a day so I'm not overdosing or anything. And I also finished my GPC so maybe cutting the GPC is causing me this issue ? I'm just checking for the possibility of these stuff because I'm still not sure yet what's causing me this problem.

[positive_guy]

Hey Nanna, Quantum
So I've been lately suffering from fast heartbeat issue. My heartbeat rate is ~120 bpm and yesterday I couldn't even sleep because of it. Until now nothing seems to be wrong with me but I'll be waiting on further tests. The question that I'd like to ask is if the supplements that are mentioned here could cause these issues ? I only take them about 1-2 times a day so I'm not overdosing or anything. And I also finished my GPC so maybe cutting the GPC is causing me this issue ? I'm just checking for the possibility of these stuff because I'm still not sure yet what's causing me this problem.

Same here. But about 10-11 years ago when i was generally checkt by an internist, my heartbeat was already to high. He said, nothing serious here but he'd recommend further tests to see why that is. But i didn't go there again.

[fathom]

Hi Nas, while I am no expert (and dont follow my advice), but logically speaking: Alpha-GPC would if at all decrease your heart-rate and make you feel relaxed (GABA activity) and which is why is great at night too.   If you are taking SAM-e, that could potentially stimulate you (and thats why nanna1's post has the comment to not take it at night), and stimulation could increase heart rate, however SAM-e at 400mg the increase should be minimal.

b/w: you guys should post the meds you are taking in your signature line or something.  I plan to do it shortly.  It will help others too.  The reason I say, for e.g. if you were taking a prescription Stimulant, that will definitely increase your heart-rate, and then SAM-e could be potentiating those effects.  As always discuss with doc before taking anything - common sense, but still saying.   

Hey Nanna, Quantum
So I've been lately suffering from fast heartbeat issue. My heartbeat rate is ~120 bpm and yesterday I couldn't even sleep because of it. Until now nothing seems to be wrong with me but I'll be waiting on further tests. The question that I'd like to ask is if the supplements that are mentioned here could cause these issues ? I only take them about 1-2 times a day so I'm not overdosing or anything. And I also finished my GPC so maybe cutting the GPC is causing me this issue ? I'm just checking for the possibility of these stuff because I'm still not sure yet what's causing me this problem.

Same here. But about 10-11 years ago when i was generally checkt by an internist, my heartbeat was already to high. He said, nothing serious here but he'd recommend further tests to see why that is. But i didn't go there again.

[Muon]

Hey Nanna, Quantum
So I've been lately suffering from fast heartbeat issue. My heartbeat rate is ~120 bpm and yesterday I couldn't even sleep because of it. Until now nothing seems to be wrong with me but I'll be waiting on further tests. The question that I'd like to ask is if the supplements that are mentioned here could cause these issues ? I only take them about 1-2 times a day so I'm not overdosing or anything. And I also finished my GPC so maybe cutting the GPC is causing me this issue ? I'm just checking for the possibility of these stuff because I'm still not sure yet what's causing me this problem.

You might be developing POTS. My POTS related symptoms exploded years ago from nowhere, I did not take any medicine at all. Observe this behaviour, you may get problems with posturing up and feeling not enough blood is flowing towards your brain. You also may get more sensitive for heat which worsens those symptoms. Buy a heart rate meter and measure the heart rate difference between supine and standing position or measure >120 BPM while standing multiple times when it gets worse and go to your doctor with the data. Send me a PM when POTS symtoms are out of control I can give you some tips.