Could mast cells be involved? Another sex triggered reaction for some.

[Mr Raba]

Reference to mast cell initiated reaction to sex.  Hmmm

"But that’s not all. Earlier we noted that mast cell degranulation can cause dizziness and reduced blood pressure. Biaggioni, an ME/CFS researcher studying orthostatic intolerance noted that mast cells are “strategically positioned to modulate sympathetic (nervous system (SNS) activity” – a key system in ME/CFS. In a small 2005 study he described a process by which mast cell activation (MCA) caused orthostatic intolerance, particularly in patients who experienced ‘flushing’.

Intriguingly neuropeptide Y – a proposed biomarker in chronic fatigue syndrome – can induce mast cell degranulation and a subsequent lowering of blood pressure. Biaggioni found that POTS (postural tachycardia syndrome) patients with mast cell activation experienced episodes of flushing, shortness of breath, headache, lightheadedness, excessive urination, and gastrointestinal symptoms such as diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting. These symptoms could be set off by such normally innocuous things as standing for long periods, exercise, premenstrual cycle, meals, and sexual intercourse."

Full article: http://phoenixrising.me/archives/13083

[Quantum]

Hi MrRaba, and thanks for your interesting input.

I do think also that mast cells, being part of the immune system, take part in the over-reaction of the immune system that I suspect is part of POIS.

see at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2301.msg18956#msg18956

I use natural mast cells stabilizers as part of my relief method, my favorite being quercetin  ( I do not use Mast cells stabilizers only, but they are part of my pre-pack).  I gave a list of natural mast cells stabilizers at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2372.msg19856#msg19856 .

Did you try any for yourself, MrRaba?

[Mr Raba]

Hi Quantum,

Very interesting info. Thank for sharing it. I used Quercetin for years on and off for inflammation.

I can only take it for 3 days in a row after that it increases anxiety in me.

It helps my POIS when taken at least 30 min before.  Tried right afterwards, horrible reaction for some reason. Like my body would not reach its post orgasm plateau. It stayed revved and tired for a very long time. Fast heart bit etc.

Also it makes sex less enjoyable for me. Decreases my desire when taken before sex.

It has an effect as diuretic and on aldosterone if remember correctly.

Very interesting supplement.  It can help a lot for a day or two. I learned not to use it in day two after O however. Over revved reaction.

I should try the other ones.

Your list reminds me of the ingredients of protandim. 

I noticed tha curcumin did not agree with me, yet prtandim was very powerful.

So i bouhgt all the ingredients separately and did my own mix. Minus curcumin.
Very powerful stuff. The ashawanda sp?  However irritated my stomach after a while

Good nutients.

Helpful for my cfs. My cfs and pois are very intimately linked. And they both started simultaneously on the same day at age 27. Could O every day before that.

[Quantum]

Hi MrRaba,

Glad this list of natural mast cells stabilizers may help you find one that is adding to your relief of POIS, and of CFS.

This reaction you describe - staying wired and restless with fast heartbeat - if you take quercetin afterward.  Sounds like it blocks the elimination of catecholamine, so you stay on noradrenaline... just an hypothesis, here.

I am not aware of quercetin having diuretic properties.  I didn't notice this effect on myself neither when taking it, but we all have specifics in our metabolism, so effects vary from one person to the other.


If quercetin makes you anxious, you may take a look at organic chamomile (flower tops) tea,  It contains 3 mast cells stabilizers: apigenin, luteolin and chrysin .  And it calms down

[caveeater]

Mast cells and histamine are most definitely involved in POIS for me. I also found quercetin the supplement made be somewhat anxious, once POIS started.

I like holy basil tea when I need to calm down, and lithium and melatonin helps me with sleep. In general though, fasting and avoiding certain foods (high protein in particular since it contains histidine) seem to benefit me most.

I also have gene mutations that impair my body from breaking down histamine. DAO is one, MAOb is another. It's all interconnected.

[b_jim]

I'm a little depressed at the moment (too much work ) and I sleep bad with early awake, classic symptom of moderate depression.

And then I'm looking for natural solutions like tryptophane/serotonin etc..

I found several articles and it seems ther is a clear link between MAST CELLS and DEPRESSION via inflammation and tryptophane.

First point, there is a rare disease called   Mastocytosis and I didn't know it. You can have a look and the symptoms (and compare some of them with Pois) :
skin : prurit, rash, hives...
gut : diarheas, abdominal pain..
Otorhinolaryngology : rhinitis, asthma...
Neurology : loss of memmory, concentration troubles, depression.

The highlights of the study :

- 50% of the mastocytosis sufferers have depression.
- the blood tryptophane level is lower in depression sufferers.
- the low level of tryptophane is caused by a bad metabolism itself caused by inflammation.
- the mastocytosis sufferers have low serotonin blood levels but higher neurotoxic trytophane-like molecule like Quinolinic acid.

=> It seems the tryptophane is not used to synthetize serotonin but used to synthetize quinolinic acid(q.a) because of mast cell overactivity.

The drug used to block q.a.is ketamine, an Inhibitory glutamate and I made the link with another topic.

Why not imagine some other substances to influence this phenomenon.

[b_jim]

Maybe when we flush with niacine or when we have a fever, we make the mast cells empty without causing neurotoxicity and then it prevents pois symptoms.

Maybe inhibotry sbstances like Gaba, taurine, benzodizepine reduces the inflammation.

Of course, I suspect orgasm/ejaculation to trigger the phenomenon.

[Quantum]

I'm a little depressed at the moment (too much work ) and I sleep bad with early awake, classic symptom of moderate depression.

And then I'm looking for natural solutions like tryptophane/serotonin etc..

I found several articles and it seems ther is a clear link between MAST CELLS and DEPRESSION via inflammation and tryptophane.

First point, there is a rare disease called   Mastocytosis and I didn't know it. You can have a look and the symptoms (and compare some of them with Pois) :
skin : prurit, rash, hives...
gut : diarheas, abdominal pain..
Otorhinolaryngology : rhinitis, asthma...
Neurology : loss of memmory, concentration troubles, depression.

The highlights of the study :

- 50% of the mastocytosis sufferers have depression.
- the blood tryptophane level is lower in depression sufferers.
- the low level of tryptophane is caused by a bad metabolism itself caused by inflammation.
- the mastocytosis sufferers have low serotonin blood levels but higher neurotoxic trytophane-like molecule like Quinolinic acid.

=> It seems the tryptophane is not used to synthetize serotonin but used to synthetize quinolinic acid(q.a) because of mast cell overactivity.

The drug used to block q.a.is ketamine, an Inhibitory glutamate and I made the link with another topic.

Why not imagine some other substances to influence this phenomenon.

Hi b_jim,

I agree at 200% with what you write in your post.   


I have good results with the use of mast cells stabilizers, and also with blocking the production of quinolinic acid with IDO and TDO inhibitors.

You write "Why not imagine some other substances to influence this phenomenon.":

- for mast cells stabilizers:  http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2372.msg19856#msg19856.   
- for blocking quinolinic acid production IDO and TDO inhibitors:   quercetin, rosemary, basilic, any spice with rosmarinic acid in it, curcumin, and so on.   
- NMDA receptors blockers are a good addition to minimize the excitotoxicity of quinolinic acid and the like, and spare the brain:  magnesium, flaxseed oil , L-theanine ( which happen to be also a mast cell stabilizer as a bonus), etc

I also eat pumpkin seeds every day, a good source or tryptophan.

Tell me what you think, and how you will further work with this information you have just posted, and if anything comes out as good for you, out of all this.


P.S. hang on during this difficult period, and try to rest as much as possible!

[b_jim]

First, your post is very good, intelligent and logical as usual.
I will try to apply the whole supplement.

In fact, I already tried all of these element but one by one.
For quercetin, i ate tons of apples (100% organic, from my grandfather).
I put curcumin + pepper in my food, often rosmaric acid family herbs.
I tried bromelaine supplements too. Pumpkin seeds too
To be honnest, I never found a real difference with my Pois symptoms, compared to huge improvement i had with taurine and no-sugar diet.

But i will try again and i need tryptophane, I'm clearly in deficit.

But the last point is i don't think serotonin is the main neurotransmitter  causing the concentration trouble of Pois. I can feel the low serotonin effect, the fatigue IS NOT THE SAME that Pois specific fatigue.
I can clearly make the difference between serotonin fatigue and Pois fatigue.
Dopamine or histamine still my favorite candidates to explain the "feel like sleeping" symptom.

[b_jim]

Allergic and flu-like symptoms are not hard to link to a immune response, and I have already explained my view on how cognitive and emotional symptoms may be also linked to immune response, via TDO and IDO upregulating, shunting the tryptophan metabolism form niacin and serotonin production to kynurenine production and its toxic by-products, quinolinic acid and kynuretic acid.

Clearly you explained the same thing much better and 6 months before me

They block degranulation, that his, the release of histamine and other pro-inflammatory messengers by activated mast cells.  Antihistamine block the histamine receptors, so are used to lower the effects of histamine that has already been release in the tissues,and of course, they work only against histamine, and not the other immune messengers that are released by mast cells and that cause inflammation and symptoms in the body and brain (pro-inflammatory cytokines, etc)

Yeah, this is a great great explanation. This is so brillant that you should send it to Marcel Waldinger. He eliminated mast cells as culprit too early and too quick because he used an antihistaminic drug.

I only add something, anti-histamine drugs seems to not work but only H1/H2 drugs have been tested.
There is a small probability than H3 drug could cure pois.

[Quantum]

Hi B_jim,

Thanks for your positive comments about my posts on mast cells and on possible immune mechanism in POIS    Let me know if this help you in your search for a better control of your POIS symptoms.


Natural mast cells stabilizers are great for symptoms linked to histamine,  when stacked together, and with other products as well like antioxidants and NMDAr blockers - I have no better results than you for POIS if I only take one or two at a time, I have to take my whole pre-pack at once, and 20 to 30 minutes before release.   

For the other pro-inflammatory mediators released by mast-cells like cytokines and the like, I rely on antioxidants to block their effects.   Sources of polyphenolic antioxidants, like pine bark extract, or grape seed extract, or various berries, or else, and sources of carotenoïds antioxidants, like luteine, beta-caroten, asthaxantine, and many others, and other types of antioxidants like green tea extracts, with catechins, which are excellent antioxidants.  I try to combine different families of antioxidants to maximize the results.  By putting more than one source at a time, I aim for block a larger spectre of those pro-inflammatory substances that are produced during the immune reaction.

It often occurs that a given natural product is both a mast cell stabilizers and a good antioxidants, like curcumin, or rosemary, or quercetin, so it helps both with histamine and other immune messengers that cause inflammation.

Of course, taurine can be stacked with mast cell stabilizers and antioxidants, and I do use it as well, but mostly on post-release, when my pre-pack didn't block all of the inflammation reaction. Taurine is gabaergic, so it helps with anxiety, it also have NMDA receptors blocking properties, and it helps in liver detox too, to name of few of its properties, so it works in the same direction.

[b_jim]

I'm really impressed by the work you made. I'm looking different video talking about this, very interesting.
I'm going to buy the supplement and try this. I'm stopping the taurine for the moment because strangely there is a little latency time.
 

[Quantum]

I'm really impressed by the work you made. I'm looking different video talking about this, very interesting.
I'm going to buy the supplement and try this. I'm stopping the taurine for the moment because strangely there is a little latency time.

Taurine stops to be effective after a certain time, and you have to take a break of it and eventually, restart it ?

[b_jim]

Not easy to answer. At the beggining I had an excellent effect on my nervous system, very relaxing and even reducing premature ejaculation. Very strange. The effect on Pois is quick.
I take 500mg during a year.

After a year, I had a testicular problem epididymitis, probably not linked to taurine, but I decided to take only 500mg before ejaculation.

After some months, I stopped to take taurine and my Pois symptoms came back after some weeks, gradually.

It's possible that the role of taurine is to keep a good magnesium level.

[b_jim]

Do you 1 caps of curcumin/pepper + 1 caps of quercetin 30 minutes before ejaculation, as "pre-pack" as you said is enough ?

I have astaxanthine too but the caps have at least 5 years :s

I will add romarinic acid food, the most effective is "sarriette" (Satureja). Here the list of the plants with romarinic acid :

[Quantum]

Do you 1 caps of curcumin/pepper + 1 caps of quercetin 30 minutes before ejaculation, as "pre-pack" as you said is enough ?

I have astaxanthine too but the caps have at least 5 years :s

I will add romarinic acid food, the most effective is "sarriette" (Satureja). Here the list of the plants with romarinic acid :

Hi b_jim,

If it was for myself, I would say it would definitively help, but not to the 80% to 100% level I have with my complete pre-pack, which contains 9 different products, rather than two.   But give it a try and take notes of every symptoms and its level of severity, and its duration, compared to usual, and see the effect for you.

I have made many attempts before coming to my current formula.   You can build on your early results, and keep a constant formula, adding one or two more elements at a time, and compare to previous results.  For example, you can add taurine and/or magnesium to your curcumin and quercetin, and compare if relief is better.  Check the expiration date of your asthaxanthine, it is a very good antioxidant, and I believe it is useful against POIS symptoms, at least in my case.

For me, I first build my pre-pack on a base made from green tea extract and magnesium, the only 2 things I had for POIS relief for years ( but relief was maybe 40% to 50% maximum ), and I gradually added lycopene, curcumin, quercetin, and so on, until I got to the "recipe" of pre-pack I have been using for over 2 years now.   I eliminated some products from the "line up" of my pre-pack, during this development phase.  For example, niacin was not clearly a game changer for me, and the flush was not worth it, in my case, so I left it out. ( about these months of testing, I still have my file with all the dates , composition of pre-pack, time I took it, approx. time of O, etc... and notes on symptoms severity and duration afterward......  it took me about 5 months to come to the final composition, after maybe 12 to 15 different versions of pre-pack, but many of the main ingredients were already there to stay after around the 7th version.  I took a very scientific approach in developing it, as much as possible. )


I have chosen to use moderate dose of more products, instead of high doses of a few products, because less side effects, and more chance to cover more problems caused during POIS.


Thanks for you chart on rosmarinic acid, it is a very interesting chart !  For me, rosemary itself is very effective.   I didn't know that basil and savory (sarriette) were higher in rosmarinic acid than rosemary.   But, I use rosemary essential oil, which is very concentrated, so I guess that it gives me a good amount of rosmarinic acid, and it also contains luteolin, a mast cell stabilizer, and other beneficial compounds that are present in rosemary.


Let me know of your results, b_jim , if you try the pre-pack method !