Author Topic: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances  (Read 7870 times)

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2019, 05:02:53 PM »

For me, having no cognitive symptoms, and much anxiety and emotional symptoms, I use NMDAr blockers, but I guess that someone having cognitive issues may test some safe and natural NMDAr antagonists, like huperzine-A  ( actually, some members had results with it for cognitive symptoms.... I cannot say, since I have absolutely zero cognitive symptoms, so cannot test this).
You mean NMDA receptor agonists? Antagonists seem to do the opposite of what we want it to do.

b_jim

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2019, 03:30:46 AM »
I'm quite sure to have low tryptophan blood level but not especially during Pois episode. Sometimes I try to reduce or stop dairy products and I feel my mood go down and problems to sleep.
I have bought pumpkins seeds with carbohydrates at 5 o' clock and I really seems to improve my sleep.
Taurine = Anti-Pois
Suffering from lyme disease

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2019, 09:04:05 PM »

For me, having no cognitive symptoms, and much anxiety and emotional symptoms, I use NMDAr blockers, but I guess that someone having cognitive issues may test some safe and natural NMDAr antagonists, like huperzine-A  ( actually, some members had results with it for cognitive symptoms.... I cannot say, since I have absolutely zero cognitive symptoms, so cannot test this).
You mean NMDA receptor agonists? Antagonists seem to do the opposite of what we want it to do.
Just want to mention this question again, don't we need NMDAr agonists to counteract the effect of Kynurenic activation?

Quantum

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2019, 10:05:46 PM »

For me, having no cognitive symptoms, and much anxiety and emotional symptoms, I use NMDAr blockers, but I guess that someone having cognitive issues may test some safe and natural NMDAr antagonists, like huperzine-A  ( actually, some members had results with it for cognitive symptoms.... I cannot say, since I have absolutely zero cognitive symptoms, so cannot test this).
You mean NMDA receptor agonists? Antagonists seem to do the opposite of what we want it to do.
Just want to mention this question again, don't we need NMDAr agonists to counteract the effect of Kynurenic activation?

Sorry Nas, I am on vacations right now and just saw your post.

You are right, I meant NMDAr agonists.   ( and huperzine is not one of these, its cognitive enhancing properties come from the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase, so it boosts acetylcholine activity)

So, natural NMDR agonists would be glutamate/glutamic acid, D-Serine and glycine .

It seems that glycine have shown some positive effect on cognition (https://examine.com/supplements/glycine/ ), and D-Serine too ,  https://examine.com/supplements/d-serine/ .

I do not know if anyone as ever tried those for POIS cognitive symptoms.  I did not dig this kynurenic acid subject a lot, since I do not have cognitive symptoms.  But I have found some interesting references, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kynurenic_acid#Role_in_disease ,and https://examine.com/topics/nmda-neurotransmission/.

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Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2019, 10:56:25 PM »
Sorry Nas, I am on vacations right now and just saw your post.

You are right, I meant NMDAr agonists.   ( and huperzine is not one of these, its cognitive enhancing properties come from the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase, so it boosts acetylcholine activity)

So, natural NMDR agonists would be glutamate/glutamic acid, D-Serine and glycine .

It seems that glycine have shown some positive effect on cognition (https://examine.com/supplements/glycine/ ), and D-Serine too ,  https://examine.com/supplements/d-serine/ .

I do not know if anyone as ever tried those for POIS cognitive symptoms.  I did not dig this kynurenic acid subject a lot, since I do not have cognitive symptoms.  But I have found some interesting references, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kynurenic_acid#Role_in_disease ,and https://examine.com/topics/nmda-neurotransmission/.
Thank you Quantum for your insight, and hope it was a happy vacation.
So about  glutamate/glutamic acid, D-Serine and glycine, what are the therapeutic options for these compounds medicinally? It doesn't seem like these compounds are much available as medicine and I'm not sure about how to supplement for them.
Another question I have is that, does this only apply on the glycine site? and not other sites? Also wouldn't NMDAr antagonist opioids be bad for us then?
Thanks again Quantum, hope that this will get us somewhere. 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 12:15:07 AM by Nas »

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2019, 12:14:04 AM »
From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid
"The fact that NMDA receptor antagonists possess antidepressant properties suggests that increased levels of quinolinic acid in patients with depression may overactivate NMDA receptors.[11] By inducing increased levels of quinolinic acid in the cerebral spinal fluid with interferon α, researchers have demonstrated that increased quinolinic acid levels correlate with increased depressive symptoms."
This is interesting, so kynurenic acid blocks glycine site NMDA receptors, yet quinolinic acid overactivates it? How would I then have them both increased? Shouldn't I be afraid that agonizing the NMDAr would induce depressive properties? That seems paradoxical a bit. 

Muon

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2019, 01:17:20 PM »
So do you guys think Quinolinic acid serum level have any meaning in POIS? When should this be measured?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nLgk-A7TpkU1k7Z3GTeH9kPrR3siqKcW/view

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2019, 12:35:48 AM »
So do you guys think Quinolinic acid serum level have any meaning in POIS? When should this be measured?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nLgk-A7TpkU1k7Z3GTeH9kPrR3siqKcW/view
Not just Quinolinic acid, Kynurenic acid and tryptophan also. Since brain symptoms last the whole week, it's safe to make the test anytime after orgasm for about 3 days or so. I think the worst the brain symptoms are, the best it would be to make the test.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 12:41:44 AM by Nas »

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2019, 01:32:27 PM »
Quantum! You're getting us intrigued :/

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2019, 01:36:42 PM »
I wonder how Dexamethasone works for this theory, probably by anti-oxdizing pro-inflammatory Cytokines.

Gabin

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2019, 04:12:18 PM »
But I have found some interesting references, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kynurenic_acid#Role_in_disease ,and https://examine.com/topics/nmda-neurotransmission/.
I pulled all repleys from last year in my quote ;D
Hmm, tick born teory is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kynurenic_acid#Role_in_disease allways somwhere oround here , posible damage from one tipe of enchepalitis in some of us( cant forget tick bite in testicle).

I had a tick bite in ... penis not long before the symptoms have started. Need to revisit the Lyme disease topic here on the forum.

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2019, 01:40:48 PM »
Quantum! You're getting us intrigued :/
We're getting even more intrigued Quantum!

demografx

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2019, 02:49:31 PM »
Quantum! You're getting us intrigued :/
We're getting even more intrigued Quantum!
Ok ok ok, how much do I pay to join The Intrigued Club?
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Nas

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2019, 03:50:44 PM »
Quantum! You're getting us intrigued :/
We're getting even more intrigued Quantum!
Ok ok ok, how much do I pay to join The Intrigued Club?
It's free! Just ask Quantum a question that'll take an entire month for him to answer and you're in!

Quantum

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Re: Information about Cytokines and other biological substances
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2019, 11:22:12 PM »
From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid
"The fact that NMDA receptor antagonists possess antidepressant properties suggests that increased levels of quinolinic acid in patients with depression may overactivate NMDA receptors.[11] By inducing increased levels of quinolinic acid in the cerebral spinal fluid with interferon ?, researchers have demonstrated that increased quinolinic acid levels correlate with increased depressive symptoms."
This is interesting, so kynurenic acid blocks glycine site NMDA receptors, yet quinolinic acid overactivates it? How would I then have them both increased? Shouldn't I be afraid that agonizing the NMDAr would induce depressive properties? That seems paradoxical a bit.

Hi Nas, sorry for the delay, but as I have said in my previous post, I was on vacations, and just got back yesterday to do on return.  Whenever you have a question for me, please be patient, it will usually takes far less than one month before I get back to you ;)


About what you see as a paradox, I refer you again at the diagram I have linked to my January 2015 post, at http://fr.slideshare.net/adonissfera/tryptophan-and-madness/17-Cytokines_Come_in_Two_FlavorsProInflammatory   .  If you look carefully, you will see that the 2 kynurenine pathways tryptophan is shunt to happen in two different cell types: 

the KMO enzyme leading to quinolinic acid is active in the microglia and produces quinolinic acid, and causes emotional symptoms

 and the KAT enzyme is present in the astrocytes, leading to kynurenic acid production, and cause cognitive symptoms

so, 2 different cell types, having a different distribution in the brain.

both enzymes, KMO and KAT, have kynurenine as substrate ( = "input" substance).

Back in 2015, I search a lot to find natural KMO inhibitor, which would have been great to test my hypothesis on quinolinic acid causing my emotional symptoms , but did not find any ( KAT inhibitor were not interesting for me since I have no cognitive symptoms).  So, I then went back up in the chain and decided to work on blocking TDO and IDO, so there would be less tryptophan turned into kynurenine, so less substrate available for KMO and KAT, to turn TRP in QUIN or kynureninc acid, as explained above.

This worked for me, in addition to all other substance in my pre-pack and with my overall method, as described in detail in my detailed post on that subject, so I stayed at that.

My hypothesis have still many questions attached to it, but not a lot of discussions have followed my presentation of it on the forum, in 2015, so many stones have been left unturned.  I had read dozens and dozens of scientific articles around this subject, 4 years ago, but not since.  I am not an expert on this topic, so I cannot answer all questions about this.  I just see that my method works for me, and it may be in part because it helps tryptophan not to be changed in kynurenine, and then in too much quinolonic acid (and too much kynurenic acid, but this is not of concern in my case).

I hope this will help you get further in your own research, Nas .

You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259