Author Topic: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome  (Read 30977 times)

Clues

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #210 on: May 25, 2020, 05:25:48 AM »
"Computer-induced stress enhanced allergen specific responses with concomitant increase in plasma SP levels in patients with AD [182]. Similar findings with increased plasma levels of SP, VIP and NGF, along with a switch to a Th2 cytokine pattern, was reported in patients with AD playing video games [183]. " Mast cells and inflammation

Wow, that's very interesting! I do have itchy rashes here and there that may be atopic dermatitis. I'm waiting for a biopsy of these, should be interesting.

A bit saddening to know as I love video games, and it's a good way to stay in touch with remote friends during the pandemic. But ultimately always good to know more. Thanks Muon. :)
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Clues

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #211 on: May 25, 2020, 07:16:42 AM »
Found this study which compares the effectiveness of Quercetin and Cromolyn Sodium in blocking mast cell cytokine release:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314669/

Quercetin sounds really promising for symptom management, any thoughts on this Muon?
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Muon

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #212 on: May 25, 2020, 09:39:53 AM »
Some members are using Quercetin. I've haven't read that paper but I have read some comments about it in other papers. But they think Cromolyn can calm down nerve fibers as well and could have additional indirect ways of inhibiting the mast cells in humans. As far as mast cell inhibitory properties go it's like this, starting with the best one:

Tetramethoxyluteolin >> Luteolin > Quercetin > Cromolyn

The problem with the first one is that it doesn't get absorbed by the body. They haven't found a way yet. The author of that paper helped making supplements. Scroll down to the algonot link: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3236.msg33462#msg33462

Tetramethoxyluteolin is only being used in the Gentlederm product for skin problems. That one might also be useful to Dermatologists when other products fail. The other products are liposomal formulations. Similar products on the internet don't state the purity of the active ingredients and they are full of fillers.

A new one is coming up: "A new dietary supplement to be available soon combines luteolin, quercetin, and eriodictyol (ViralProtek, proprietary formulation, patent pending) to achieve the maximal benefit of these flavonoids." Ref

Hmm didn't know the hydroxyl groups at the structure with the two carbon rings made the difference (at the end of the paper you posted).



Quercetin:


Eriodictyol:


There is also a problem with getting sufficient Luteolin into the brain.



More properties of flavonoids:

The Role of Quercetin, Flavonols and Flavones in Modulating Inflammatory Cell Function

Flavonoids Inhibit COX-1 and COX-2 Enzymes and Cytokine/Chemokine Production in Human Whole Blood

"IFN- is an important cytokine that has been implicated in the pathogenesis of a variety of autoimmune and chronic inflammatory conditions systemic lupus erythematosus, type I diabetes mellitus, adjuvant-induced arthritis [1]. All the selected flavonoids were effective inhibitors of the IFN- production, percentages higher than 60 %, for 25 μM. Luteolin 4e was the best one inhibiting the production almost completely (Fig. 4). Once more, the presence of OH groups in A ring appeared as an important feature to the activity as flavonoid 1d was once more the less active."

"In accordance with the literature, in this work, luteolin 4e was the most active flavonoid in the inhibition of almost all cytokines, IL-6, IFN- , and TNF-α, which makes this flavonoid a promise in the modulation of the inflammatory process."
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 01:46:49 PM by Muon »

Clues

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #213 on: May 26, 2020, 01:28:12 AM »
Some members are using Quercetin. I've haven't read that paper but I have read some comments about it in other papers. But they think Cromolyn can calm down nerve fibers as well and could have additional indirect ways of inhibiting the mast cells in humans. As far as mast cell inhibitory properties go it's like this, starting with the best one:

Tetramethoxyluteolin >> Luteolin > Quercetin > Cromolyn

That is super helpful Muon, thank you yet again for your advice and citations!

Part of the reason I was excited about Quercetin is that I can obtain it myself at a reasonable cost with no prescription etc. Whereas Cromolyn will be a hurdle I think.

Excited to learn about Luteolin as well. The only supplement I found that ships to Norway was Swanson Luteolin Complex. It's 50 mg Luteolin and 50 mg Rutin per serving. The Rutin is supposed to help the bioavailability of the Lutelin according to the manufacturer. Any thoughts on this?

Also I saw you can get Quercetin Phytosome now, which ostensibly has much better bioavailability.
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Nas

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #214 on: May 26, 2020, 02:26:44 AM »
Some members are using Quercetin. I've haven't read that paper but I have read some comments about it in other papers. But they think Cromolyn can calm down nerve fibers as well and could have additional indirect ways of inhibiting the mast cells in humans.
The problem with Chromolyn, just like with Tetramethoxyluteolin, that it can not be absorbed in the blood stream, regardless of actually passing through the Blood-Brain barrier and reaching the nerves.
I've tried Quercetine and luteolin, both, multiple times and they didn't even make a dent. You'd think they'd at least have x percent effect but not at all. If Mast Cells are indeed involved, there must be a therapeutic proof and until now I haven't had success with any.

berlin1984

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #215 on: May 26, 2020, 04:21:17 AM »
My Protocol with adaoptogens, neurotransmitter precursors, energy production supplements helps with 80% of the symptoms with intercourse, 50% with masturbation.

Clues

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #216 on: May 26, 2020, 04:24:30 AM »
I've tried Quercetine and luteolin, both, multiple times and they didn't even make a dent. You'd think they'd at least have x percent effect but not at all. If Mast Cells are indeed involved, there must be a therapeutic proof and until now I haven't had success with any.

OK. Even though I'm about 80% certain I've got some sort of mast-cell-related disorder/disease, it might not be the same one you have, and I've heard reports from others seeing improvement with flavonoids, so I'll continue experimenting.

Did you try Cromolyn as well btw?

There seem to be (supplement) forms of quercentin that claim to improve absorbtion..

Yep, that's the one I mentioned as well berlin1984. Sounds promising, has anyone tried it?
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Nas

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #217 on: May 26, 2020, 04:45:09 AM »
Did you try Cromolyn as well btw?
I haven't but I mostly suffer from brain symptoms so they're not gonna help even if I tried.

Clues

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #218 on: May 26, 2020, 06:27:21 AM »
I haven't but I mostly suffer from brain symptoms so they're not gonna help even if I tried.

OK, what do you base that on though? Not saying you're wrong, just curious. FYI there was someone on the forum, can't remember which thread, who said his brain fog was massively reduced by Cromolyn.
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Muon

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #219 on: May 26, 2020, 08:01:11 AM »
The only supplement I found that ships to Norway was Swanson Luteolin Complex. It's 50 mg Luteolin and 50 mg Rutin per serving. The Rutin is supposed to help the bioavailability of the Lutelin according to the manufacturer. Any thoughts on this?

Also I saw you can get Quercetin Phytosome now, which ostensibly has much better bioavailability.

It's actually the quercetin that helps with the bioavailability of Luteolin. Rutin is Quercetin bound to sugar. It will be cleaved in the gut by certain microbes. I remembered that it keeps enzymes/microbes busy metabolizing Rutin/Que while most of the Luteolin can slip passed them.

Quercetin:

Rutin:


1)The Swanson product doesn't seem to state in what form the luteolin comes along.
2)It doesn't state the purity of the active ingredients
3)It isn't hypo-allergenic
4)It's relatively cheap because they use peanut shells as source.

Neuroprotek gives more product information but is quite expensive. I didn't know about the phytosome formulation, thanks for sharing.

These flavonoids are meant for long term use by the way.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6418071/
Thanks

Very nice reference, I like the way they compare different flavanols.  Quercetin AND Luteolin (specially) has a nice effect on me, whereas Fisetin (also cited in this research) somehow has an oppositely negative effect on me.  I get induced into temporary POIS for about 24 hrs after taking one dosage only.  Anyone else has this effect from Fisetin?

The Role of Quercetin, Flavonols and Flavones in Modulating Inflammatory Cell Function
I have never tried Fisetin. It could also be a bad reaction to the fillers.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 08:05:32 AM by Muon »

Muon

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #220 on: May 27, 2020, 08:57:50 AM »
Posted this before and will post it again:

Intimate Contact Could Be Dangerous for Your Health

"Mast cells are unique immune cells responsible for hypersensitivity reactions through secretion of many mediators that may have both proinflammatory and anti-inflammatory effects. Mast cells may affect sexual function, depending on the mediators secreted, especially because mast cells respond to neurohormonal triggers. Mast cells are found in the genitourinary organs and in seminal plasma of infertile men, but the function of mast cells in these instances remains vague."

"Moreover, sensitive patients should be evaluated for atopic diathesis, especially the presence of conditions such as mast cell activation syndrome or multiple chemical sensitivity syndrome..."

POIS patients aren't being evaluated for MCAS that's the problem, and if one is being evaluated it's being done through an incomplete procedure.

Muon

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #221 on: May 30, 2020, 11:16:19 AM »
I was about 2 weeks out from my last O (4 times in 2 days before an MRI to purposely be as sick as possible before the scan).  Since then I abstained but had mini-POIS recurring every day (buzzing, light head, red eyes, anxiety, confusion, joint pain, nausea) despite the usual supplement regimen.  In any event, on Friday I had an O and felt moderately bad yesterday, but today feel quite good :D.  Which got me to thinking whether any of you believe that in addition to abstaining as the primary POIS avoidance, that it is also important for POIS maintenance from a symptom perspective to periodically release.  Insight or opinion appreciated!

Could be explained by the release of additional mast cell anti-inflammatory mediators (IL-10 for example). Also a mast cell can secrete mediators which inhibit its own cell in an autocrine manner, see autocrine triggers/blockers below (Ref):



I can have these events myself sometimes. It makes sense. In most cases the left side of autocrine triggers is what may keep the POIS reaction ongoing, however in some rare occasions the right blue box may take the overhand. Which also means that mediators inside the orange oval may be potential markers for POIS. We already discussed some of them like CRH, IL-33, SP and to some extent TSLP.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 04:26:55 PM by Muon »

Muon

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #222 on: May 31, 2020, 05:39:48 PM »
Strashny's POIS survey (Ref):

"The most common symptom cluster from the criteria, involving fatigue, irritation, and concentration difficulties, is
always experienced by 80% of respondents
"

Afrin's MCAD findings (Ref), table 1 constitutional: Fatigue (83%)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 06:05:58 PM by Muon »

Nas

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #223 on: June 02, 2020, 03:42:43 AM »
I haven't but I mostly suffer from brain symptoms so they're not gonna help even if I tried.

OK, what do you base that on though? Not saying you're wrong, just curious. FYI there was someone on the forum, can't remember which thread, who said his brain fog was massively reduced by Cromolyn.
Based on that Chromolyn can not be absorbed into the blood stream. I also was looking into trying it, but it wasn't available in here anyway.

Nas

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Re: Mast Cell Activation Syndrome
« Reply #224 on: June 02, 2020, 03:52:04 AM »
I wonder if all it takes to increase the bioavailability of Quercitin is just to mix it with olive oil before intake? Is that a reasonable assumption?