Author Topic: POIS, heart and HRV  (Read 12443 times)

b_jim

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POIS, heart and HRV
« on: December 16, 2015, 11:52:02 AM »
Here we can talk about Post Orgasmic Ilness Syndrome, heart and HRV following the study first conclusions.


« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 05:35:28 PM by demografx »
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b_jim

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2015, 11:55:31 AM »
As a starting point I copy the Quantum's answer to my question.

        Meditation, relaxation, binaural beats, are good to help raise my HRV ( that, I have measured with my Freeze-Framer)... no surprise that those tools has been part of my overall approach in reducing the severity and duration of my POIS.


    To raise ? or to decrease ?

Quote

Hi b_jim,

Short answer: what you want is to raise your HRV.  Following are more details.

Heart rate variability (HRV) is a very interesting measurement.  It is different form the heart rate.  HRV is the subtle variation in your heart rhythm, cyclically, over a short period of time, like during a breathing cycle.  One of the main cause of HRV is what is called the respiratory sinus arrhythmia.  In lay terms, that means that your heart rate slightly speeds up during inspiration, and slightly slows down during expiration.  That's because when you inhale, it lowers the vagal tone influence on the heart, and when you exhale, the vagal tone influence on the heart is heightened, so the heart slows down a bit.

A high HRV means you have pronounced speeding up and slowing down of your heart rhythm.  A lower HRV means you heart keeps more or less the same rhythm, not really as mechanical as a clock, but have less variation in rate than expected values.

A reduced HRV is associated with heart problem, with depression, with PTSD, high anxiety, and other problems.  It even has been shown to be a predictor of mortality after myocardial infarction.

A high HRV is associated with peak performance, with feeling in the zone, with optimal vagal tone, and with balance between sympathetic and parasympathetic systems.  Here is how the Hearthmath institute puts it: "Numerous studies show HRV is a key indicator of physiological resiliency and behavioral flexibility, and can reflect an ability to adapt effectively to stress and environmental demands." ( https://www.heartmath.org/articles-of-the-heart/the-math-of-heartmath/heart-rate-variability/ ).

So, to answer your question, what is desirable is to raise Heart Rate Variability ( HRV ).

The fact that in POIS acute phase, HRV is lowered, it clearly shows that the balance between vagal tone and sympathetic tone is disrupted.  We all, POIS sufferers, know for a fact that during POIS acute phase, we are litterally out of whack, don't we?. This lower HRV shows it in a measurable way, the Rutgers study tells us.


For anyone interested in more in-depth information about HRV, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability and https://www.heartmath.org/articles-of-the-heart/the-math-of-heartmath/heart-rate-variability/ .
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b_jim

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2015, 12:03:02 PM »
I said I'm not 100% agree with Quantum and now I'll try to defend my point of view.

Does relaxation increase or decrease HRV ?
Heart rate is not heart rate value.

Not easy to explain but it seems there are two steps in Pois. (excitation after orgasm then lethargic state).

I want to post a video of dr Servan-Schreiber.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34d7v_coherence-cardiaque-2-demonstration_news
If you don't undestrand french language, have a look video after 1 minute. Look at computer screen.
You have 3 colors : red, yellow and pink.

Red zone is the high HRV area, yellow the normal HRV area and pink the low HRV area.
Red zone is the zone of ANXIETY.
Pink zone is the zone of DEPRESSION.
Yellow zone is the SERENITY zone.
(at 1'50 dr ask to the girl to calculate 1365-7=?  1358-7= ? and the HRV goes to the red !)

Now, Dr Servan-Schreiber learn the blonde girl to controle HRV with easy breathing technique in this video :
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34d7z_coherence-cardiaque-3-controle_news

Very quickly the girl has a HRV in the yellow area, the good one.
That's why I'm not agree Quantum when you said "what you want is to raise your HRV"
No, what you want is to keep HRV in the yellow area.
But it's very possible Pois has 2 steps, in the red then in the pink.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:20:51 PM by b_jim »
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demografx

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2015, 04:19:27 PM »
I wonder if my 5-way cardiac bypass 5 years ago is somehow related?

You mean your POIS got less severe after your bypasses have been done, Demo?

Thanks, Quantum, I was wondering if my heart problems - that led to this surgery - were somehow related to my lifetime of severe POIS. Just speculating.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Quantum

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2015, 04:45:37 PM »
Thanks b_jim for having started this thread.  I think it will be very useful, since the current Rutgers study on POIS is using Heart Rate Variability as one of its main measurement, and HRV is not very well known, so we will all benefit from discussing about it.

I totally agree with what you wrote in your reply to my post - it is just that your post explain one level of complexity further than the basic information I have shared :-) . You have included the frequency bands notion.  I have reply to your question thinking you were new to the HRV concept, but you are obviously not.  You're too quick and too smart, B_jim  ;-)  And I must say that I have worked with these concepts and my software more than 10 years ago, and didn't remember all the details.  But, considering the current Rutgers study going on, and its use of HRV, it is a good time for me to review what I have learned back then.  So I took the time to re-read about HRV, and following is the results of my refreshed understanding of it.

Great videos you are linking to  ( For those not familiar with French, you can find similar info in English given on a more recent HeartMath device at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9SbrQ1AwiQ , beginning at 10:35, to 13:35 ). Those videos of Dr Servan-Scheiber - who, sadly, past away in 2011 - are very well done.  And , hey, the software that is used in those videos is exactly the one I bought in 2004 - the Freeze-Framer software, of the HeartMath Institute !  I got out my old box form the shelves, and saw have paid $250, back then, for this kit ( software, sensor, and documentation).  I have the exact same screens with my Freeze-Framer than what we see in those videos, including the Power Spectral Graph, with the 3 colored zones.  Only my sensor is different, mine is a finger sensor.  These videos are from 2007, so HeartMath may have developed this better sensor by then.  Nowadays, HeartMath products have evolved a lot more, as seen in the English video - they now have small, portable units, but they still kept the same kind of tools and display, like the Power Spectrum Graph.

In general, the Power Spectrum Analysis of HRV uses 3 bands.  The frequencies associated with these 3 bands are the very low frequencies (VLF) from 0.0033 to 0.04 Hz ( red/dark zone on the left), low frequencies (LF) from 0.04 to 0.15 Hz ( yellow zone in the center), and high frequency (HF) from 0.15 to 0.4 Hz ( pink zone on the right).  This seems to be the better consensus in trying to define the influence zone of the sympathetic system at one end, the parasympathetic system at the other end, and the balancing zone of the two, in the middle.


Having the different frequency bands in mind, I should have been more precise in my answer and have said that what we want, if we are looking for an optimal state of balance of the two branches of the autonomic system ( coherence state), is a higher HRV in the range of the 0,1 Hz, which is the center of the yellow zone that Dr Servan-Schreiber is pointing at at 01:15 of the first video you have linked to ( http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34d7v_coherence-cardiaque-2-demonstration_news ).  When using HeartMath products, the goal is to obtain, on the Power Spectrum Graph, a bell-curved group of bars, centered on the 0.10 value.  This is what is termed a "cardiac coherence" state by HeartMath.  I say "when using HeartMath products", because, there are many other devices for HRV measurements, and there are many way to do the mathematical analysis of the data and to present them on graphs.  The current Rutgers study may measure and analyze it in another way, but in the end, the results lead to similar conclusions.  So, for being clear with everybody, you probably will not hear of the same particular indicators from the Rutgers team ( like the 3 color zones, the Power Spectrum Graph - there are other ways to evaluate HRV).  Information about the various way to analyze HRV data can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability#HRV_analysis .  For now, I do not know what method is used in the current POIS study. They may even use a method where there is no frequency bands implied, like with SDNN and SDANN ( see the wikipedia article on HRV for details) However, if you understand the concept of HRV, you will be able to understand what the results mean.

It is important to note that the coherence state is not a relaxation state - it is all relative to where you come from.   When looking at the Power Spectrum Graph, the left, dark zone, is the sympathetic tone.  Dr Servan-Schreiber says in the video that if your bars are centered there, you are in a state of anxiety , which he links to too much adrenaline and cortisol, too much stress.   The pink zone at the right is the parasympathetic zone, and Dr Servan-Schreiber tells that if you are centered there, you are depressed ( parasympathetic is the vagal tone side, and in a simplify view, the "brake pedal" of the autonomic nervous system).   So, the coherence concept is to have a right balance between the two sides of the autonomic nervous system.  On the graph, that means being centered in the center of the yellow zone, at 0,1 Hz.  As most people in our modern civilization are too stressed ( on the left side of the graph), the coherence state is obtained through being more relaxed.  Becoming even more relaxed, the maximum of HRV can get centered at 0,2 Hz. If someone shows maximum HRV higher on the spectrum, farther on the right side, let's say at approx 3.5 Hz ( I suppose), Dr Servan-Schreiber says it is a sign of being depressed. Also, it is possible, for somebody not centered in the middle, LF frequencies, to show higher HRV in both left and right zones, meaning it is possible to be both anxious and depressed at the same time ( I think we can relate to date, when in POIS acute phase).

In HeartMath own terms: " There are three colored regions - the VLF (very low frequency) dark colored region on the left shows sympathetic activation. The LF (low frequency) region in the light colored middle is sometimes called the "baroreceptor region" which reflects the blood pressure control mechanisms between the heart and the brain. When in a coherent mode this indicates a synchronization of the sympathetic and the parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system. The HF (high frequency) region on the right indicates parasympathetic activity. As you shift towards high coherence, the bars will focus around 0.1 Hz in this region and can get very high in amplitude.
Most people initially will have a large peak to the left in the VLF region due to sympathetic activity. A peak around .2 Hz to the right in the parasympathetic region can appear when the user is in relaxation mode."  (found at https://www.heartmath.com/support/knowledgebase/?article=kA180000000XbWdCAK&t=%28Power%29+Spectrum+Average )


Going back to the Rutgers study interim report:


Hi All,

Demo and Daveman just received the public portion of Dr. Komisaruk's interim report from NORD. Here it is --

"A preliminary interpretation of our current data is that POIS symptoms are accompanied by a lowered heart rate and heart rate variability (HRV), and that vagal stimulation may produce a beneficial effect on POIS symptoms (increased heart rate and HRV) as a 're-bound' from the vagal stimulation. These are very preliminary findings and continued research with additional participants is underway, to assess the reliability of these findings."

Stef


I think we can assume that the lowered HRV found by the research team in POIS subjects is either the LF HRV, the low frequency HRV ( the middle zone, the yellow zone in the videos), or it is an overall mesure of HRV that do not imply the division in different frequency bands, like the SDNN analysis method.  I have read in a recent review ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4111661/ , see table 1 in this article ) that the more frequently used method for analizing HRV are SDNN, SDANN and SDANN index, and those methods give only one value for HRV, they do not divide HRV values in different bands.  So, "lower HRV", in most studies, seems to mean a lower overall variability in heart rate, all frequencies confounded.  In this context, a lower HRV still means to me a lower adaptability of the autonomous system, implying a lower balance between the vagal/parasympathetic tone and the sympathetic tone.

The interim report mentions a lower heart rate, so we can suppose that the peak band where the frequencies are their HRV maximum has moved toward the HF band ( higher frequencies ), but that is pure speculations from my part, because it is not specified in the interim report, and we know that POIS can cause both anxiety and depressed feelings, so it is not clear. And if they have used a SDNN method, all that can be deducted is that in POIS state, a low HRV is an indicator of less physiological resiliency and behavioral flexibility, and can reflect an decreased ability to adapt effectively to stress and environmental demands.  Well, in my case, I really do feel that way when in POIS - very low capacity to adapt to anything in my environment, as any challenge, as little as it is, becomes overwhelming and frustrating, at the physical and the emotional level  ( in my case, the cognitive/mental abilities are spared)

While reviewing for myself all that is linked to HRV, its measurement and clinical interpretation, I have found this blog, well written, and that gives a good overall explanation: http://www.brainhealthhacks.com/2008/08/07/heart-rate-variability-health-predictor-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/ , and a follow-up at http://www.brainhealthhacks.com/2008/09/30/heart-rate-variability-and-your-brain-an-update/ .


I still find this HRV subject very useful and interesting.  It has helped me back in 2004, and from a twist in history, it comes back now in 2015, on this POIS forum  :-) . 

Sorry for the long post, but HRV is not a simple subject to talk about.







« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 07:43:29 PM by Quantum »
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demografx

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2015, 09:22:15 PM »


b_jim, and Quantum!



« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 09:26:54 PM by demografx »
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TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2015, 11:12:30 PM »
Quote
I wonder if my 5-way cardiac bypass 5 years ago is somehow related?

Yes, I think so ! I remember I wrote a post and I said it's possible that Poisers will have cardiac problems with age. I think we have some poisers in this case.


Thanks, b_jim!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

b_jim

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2015, 01:36:34 PM »
I would like to buy such a cardiac analyzer. Some ones are not inexpensive but the quality is not very good. I would like to buy something more "serious" with datas registers, parameters...

But in the other hand it's not really usefull. As you said, HRV is a key indicator. But it's not a primary cause of Pois.  I can't imagine we can cure Pois only with breathing technique and yoga. It's not serious.

After ejaculation, I always had different steps. For example, if I go to sleep some hours after ejaculation, I have a state of abnormal excitation, restlegs state. The days 2 and 3 were clearly state of letargy. I would  like to see if these different states could be distinguished by the heart analyser.
But now I go back to taurine after some months and I feel much better.



« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 01:42:52 PM by b_jim »
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Quantum

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2015, 11:39:10 PM »
I would like to buy such a cardiac analyzer. Some ones are not inexpensive but the quality is not very good. I would like to buy something more "serious" with datas registers, parameters...

But in the other hand it's not really usefull. As you said, HRV is a key indicator. But it's not a primary cause of Pois.  I can't imagine we can cure Pois only with breathing technique and yoga. It's not serious.

After ejaculation, I always had different steps. For example, if I go to sleep some hours after ejaculation, I have a state of abnormal excitation, restlegs state. The days 2 and 3 were clearly state of letargy. I would  like to see if these different states could be distinguished by the heart analyser.
But now I go back to taurine after some months and I feel much better.

Hi b_jim ,

It will be more interesting to know how the Rutgers team have been using vagal stimulation as a POIS treatment, and how much it has been effective in controlling POIS symptoms.  However, In a study, they need an objective indicator like HRV, because they cannot rely only on subjective appreciation of the subjects in order to get statistically meaningful data .  By using HRV, they have an objective measure of how much a subject is relieved of his POIS symptoms, and can publish with those results.  So , personally, I am more curious about their treatment protocol with vagal stimulation, and how much relief is achieved with it.

About the use of HRV, I can share ny personal experience.  It is a good biofeedback technique, in the sense that it helps you see clearly what technique or supplement or change in habits help you achieve a desirable state of mind for better inner balance. You are right in saying that HRV measurement alone cannot cure POIS.   However, it has given me some more "reliefs points" in my POIS control and prevention method.   I use an image, here.  Suppose I have to get to a total of 20 "relief points" in order to get 100% POIS relief. I have to gather them, and add them up with different choices, supplements, and changes in my habits.  Looking back to my overall method of control and prevention of POIS symptoms ( as described at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.msg16604#msg16604  ), I could say that changing my diet brought me 3 to 4 "relief points", discovering magnesium and green tea were helping got me more relief points, then I earned 2 or 3 more by exercising regularly, and maybe got 3 to 4 more by practicing yoga and meditation on a dally basis, even more points form my psychotherapy, and so on.  Then,  by developing my complete pre-pack of supplements, I got enough additional relief points to get to the 20 needed points for 80% to 100% relief of my POIS on a constant basis.  For sure, I made up the relative importance of each part of my method, and do not know exactly how much % of relief can be assigned to HRV and relaxation, but it has played a role for sure in my overall approach.  Over the years, my POIS has gradually got less severe and shorter, as I was finding new ways to gain "relief points", and HRV biofeedback, yoga, meditation, binaural beats, and other relaxation techniques has been responsible for the gain of some of those points.  Remember that I have been fighting POIS alone for 36 years before finding this forum one year ago, not even knowing other guys had the same problem I had since puberty.  So every bit of relief was valuable for me.

HeartMath theory about HRV sounded interesting for me.  It is quite clear that there is an unbalance in my physiology when in POIS, including between my parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system.  My worst POIS symptoms was a marked hypotension, which is a manifestation of autonomic dysfunction  ( hypotension is usually caused by either too much vagal tone, or not enough sympathetic tonus, or a mix of both) .  Finding a better balance was an attractive goal, either for my POIS, and for my anxiety level to, which was still too high, 12 years ago....  hehe, so glad it is much lower now!

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Quantum

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2015, 11:57:59 PM »
Ok cool.. but

Did the participants receive a skin prick test ? If not then there is no concrete ID of POIS in participants
What has heart rate viability to do with allergy dynamics ?

Hi Lodewijkp,

The Rutgers study is not led by Dr Waldinger, and is not based on the allergy hypothesis.

However, Dr Waldinger is in the process of starting a new study, and I think it is about evaluating possible immunologic markers in POIS sufferers blood as potential tools for the diagnostic of POIS ( but not much details are available yet).

I agree with you that a lower HRV is not a specific measurement for POIS, but for now, only the clinical features of POIS are used to identify POIS cases.  There is no test or blood work yet that can diagnose POIS. The clinical features defined by Dr Waldinger in his first article ( onset after orgasm, self-limited syndrome fading away after a given number of days, ...  see the article for all of them )  are still what defines POIS the best, and they include nothing about the possible cause.  So, nothing is clear yet, and research teams can come up with different approaches.

You can find many posts on this forum about many hypothesis about POIS cause, made by members ( for example, here is a post where I present my own version: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2078.msg16431#msg16431 ).  You can start your own thread for presenting and discussing your own ideas about POIS.  I think that by all sharing our ideas, we gain from each others points of you, and can help us make steps toward solving the POIS puzzle.
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Daveman

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2015, 05:18:38 AM »
Ok cool.. but

Did the participants receive a skin prick test ? If not then there is no concrete ID of POIS in participants
What has heart rate viability to do with allergy dynamics ?
All POIS symptoms point to a dysfuntion in the 5HT system or neuropeptide system, the vagus nerve has a high density certain 5HT subreceptors. All of this is pretty straightforward.

There are alot of patients without visible or noticable symptoms that have low/high HVR ( just normal functional human beings ).

In my opinion measured is another symptom or manifestion and nothing causual, what would be more interesting is to measure Ca2 influx in certain cells like endothelial cells, this information says more about the relationship between neurotransmitters and POIS.
This HVR can point to anything like endothelial pathology, blood sugar and what not.

First, no one has proven that the skin prick test is a concrete test of POIS.
I have seen POISers that show negative and non-POISers that show positive.

Why would HRV have to have anything to do with allergy dynamics? POIS isn't an allergy, and treating it as such (using allergy desensitizing techniques without MUCH MORE CONCLUSIVE evidence) is dangerous and has potential for creating a condition which might not previously have existed.

I could agree however that vagal influence may well be just another symptom, and not causal. However I'm sure that Dr. Komisuruk will indicate at some later date whether such is so or not. In doing so, it is one more definitive piece of the puzzle to be added to the picture.

Its too early to get on any bandwagon. If he shows that it's not causal, perhaps at least we will have a clearer path to difinitive markers, and potential to validate or not dysfunction in the 5HT system or whatever. You nor anyone at this moment in time can clearly say for certainty that such is the case, or that anything is certain.



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FloppyBanana

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2015, 04:56:31 PM »
Daveman i agree about what you say

however i do not agree with this :
''First, no one has proven that the skin prick test is a concrete test of POIS.
I have seen POISers that show negative and non-POISers that show positive''

Something around 88 % of the selected patients reacted on a skin prick test with semen ,  that means that roughly 12 % does not have POIS or may have another disorder instead of POIS ( i don't say they do not have serious symptoms, im just saying it likely isn't POIS) . I've been in meinardi and waldingers office and both said it is a reliable marker for POIS.

There are many diagnostic markers for many diseases who are proven reliable and correct but has not yet been generally accepted by the scientific community. If your saying that POIS skin prick test isn't reliable then it is also not reliable to just assume they have POIS just because they have symptoms which for a large part is subjective interpretation. I have seen people on theis forum claiming they had POIS and claiming they cured by means that have nothing to do with POIS like for example psychological therapy.

Just because someone has symptoms after a orgasm doesn't mean they have POIS. I want to see a clear comprehensive explanation with which criteria they selected participants for this paper. It is good that there is research done but it has to be done with strict criteria.
Hi Lodewijkp,

Sorry to be so blunt here but I don't think you comments stack up for the simple fact that people who do not have POIS test positive to the skin prick test. It is most recently mentioned Chinese POIS study. I believe (don't care too much to debate to be honest) that there are some people that do have immune system reactions but who's to say what they have is the true POIS. POIS may be a group of conditions. I don't think debating this stuff outside the realms of medical research is going to make a breakthrough. Many people (including doctors) have strong opinions about what they think is or is not  POIS.

FB

30 years of POIS. Mytelase after O with Iceman breathing technique.

demografx

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2016, 12:54:01 AM »

Article in Medscape: "Low Heart Rate on HR-Reducing Meds Bodes Higher CV, Death Risk: MESA Analysis"
Veronica Hackethal, MD
January 19, 2016
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/857464

Does this mean there are risks in adjusting heart rates for POISers? (Whether by drugs or vagus nerve stimulation).
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Stef

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2016, 05:06:37 PM »

Article in Medscape: "Low Heart Rate on HR-Reducing Meds Bodes Higher CV, Death Risk: MESA Analysis"
Veronica Hackethal, MD
January 19, 2016
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/857464

Does this mean there are risks in adjusting heart rates for POISers? (Whether by drugs or vagus nerve stimulation).

Hi, demo --

There likely is an element of risk involved in the POIS vagus nerve stimulation study. I do recall that there was some specific cardiac criteria that made one inelligible for participation.

However, the article/study you've cited is about a very different set of circumstances. It's a meta-analysis of previous studies that were focused on drug-induced bradycardia -- where the person's heart rate was consistently below 50 beats/minute. The studies involved people who had some type of cardiac condition that required a heart-slowing medication. The central issue of the meta-analysis was: how low is too low when the slow heart rate is due to medication?

The authors stressed how complex this subject is, that there wasn't a one-size-fits-all approach. A suggestion was made that patients whose heart rates consistently remained below 50 might require a lower dose of the medication (athough the lower dose might be ineffective).  Also, these patients should probably be assessed for some other underlying condition.

I don't think the POIS vagus nerve study can be viewed in the same light as a study involving people with diagnosed cardiac conditions, who require cardiac meds. But -- you've raised a very important issue, demo!! A clinical study like Dr. Komisaruk's has risks (likely very low). But we know that he and his team are fully aware of the risks and are moving slowly (and carefully).

Stef





« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 05:10:47 PM by Stef »

demografx

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 08:11:19 PM »
Stef!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Macster

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2016, 11:05:24 AM »
Hello,

I recently found apps that work with hrv monitors to track your hrv and to do some exercises (breathing I think) and track how the hrv changes. They seem to be mostly for athletes, here's an example:

http://www.bioforcehrv.com

I'm wondering if such things could be useful in trying to increase the vagal tone. Right now I am using a simple app on my phone that makes a sound to tell me to inhale and another sound to exhale. I get the impression that it is helping but it demands concentration and it might be a placebo effect.

What are your thoughts on such hrv apps/monitors? Are they useful or not so much in increasing vagal tone?
Symptoms since I'm 15 y o, hair loss, muscle twitches, brain fog, anxiety, low confidence, stuffy nose, itchy eyes and skin, sensitive to temperature change, loud heartbeat. I currently use 5-htp and SAM-e.

Quantum

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2016, 01:48:33 PM »
Hello,

I recently found apps that work with hrv monitors to track your hrv and to do some exercises (breathing I think) and track how the hrv changes. They seem to be mostly for athletes, here's an example:

http://www.bioforcehrv.com

I'm wondering if such things could be useful in trying to increase the vagal tone. Right now I am using a simple app on my phone that makes a sound to tell me to inhale and another sound to exhale. I get the impression that it is helping but it demands concentration and it might be a placebo effect.

What are your thoughts on such hrv apps/monitors? Are they useful or not so much in increasing vagal tone?


Bonjour Macster,

I think it is more about balancing your autonomic system than about simply stimulating the vagus.  HeartMath Institute calls it "coherence".  You can check this video that b_jim has linked too, at http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x34d7v_coherence-cardiaque-2-demonstration_news - it's in French, but you will have obviously no problems with that :) .   I also share there more of my point of view about RSA /HRV monitors as a valuable biofeedback tool at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2179.msg17618#msg17618 .

More recently, I am in the process of understanding the Polyvagal Theory, used as a background for certain parts of the current POIS study by the Rutgers team.  In this theory, there is another added layer of complexity,  Instead of having to balance the sympathetic system with the parasympathetic/vagus, there are according to this theory 3 different responses:  the old parasympathetic response ( freezing), the sympathetic response ( fight-or-flight), and the "smart" parasympathetic response ( tend-and-befriend).   But it is clear the the latest, "smart" parasympathetic response correspond to the "coherence" or to the state called "being in the zone" in the fitness world, because they are both measured by HRV.    So, if your biofeedback monitor says you have a high HRV, then you are "in the zone", you are in s state of coherence, or you can also say that you are using the smart vagus response, and more simply, you feel good ...hahaha.... :) :) :)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 01:56:11 PM by Quantum »
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Macster

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2016, 05:22:11 PM »
Merci pour la r?ponse Quantum,

So I guess it could be a good idea to invest a little in this type of HRV monitor? Do you recommend the heartMath ones? Also, are you seeing any benefit or gaining insight from using the monitor that you own?
Symptoms since I'm 15 y o, hair loss, muscle twitches, brain fog, anxiety, low confidence, stuffy nose, itchy eyes and skin, sensitive to temperature change, loud heartbeat. I currently use 5-htp and SAM-e.

BluesBrother

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2016, 06:00:04 PM »
Merci pour la r?ponse Quantum,

So I guess it could be a good idea to invest a little in this type of HRV monitor? Do you recommend the heartMath ones? Also, are you seeing any benefit or gaining insight from using the monitor that you own?

I recently bought a second-hand heartMath device - the emWave2 - on eBay. The device measures heart rate (and thus HRV) using either a sensor on which you lay your thumb or using an ear clip. When trying the device, I noted that it kept measuring my heart rate even when I was not putting my finger on the device nor was I using the ear clip. I concluded that the device was broken, and sent it back. I believe that this was a problem with the specific device I had, still, it made me wonder about the accuracy of the sensors more generally. For HRV measurement it is very important that the sensors are accurate. For example, the heart rate sensors in fitness bands are not precise enough for measuring HRV. I suspect that using the emWave2 with one's thumb is not very accurate either. I don't know about the ear clip's accuracy - but I'd suspect that a breast strap would be the better option.

I will most likely buy a Polar H7 breast strap: http://www.amazon.com/Polar-Sensor-BLE-BLK-M-XXL/dp/B007S088F4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453676131&sr=8-1&keywords=Polar+USA

The breast strap costs 49$ on amazon and is thus much cheaper than the emWave2: http://www.amazon.com/emWave-6320-BL-Emwave2-Silver-Blue/dp/B004YHKUX2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453676200&sr=8-1&keywords=emwave2
which costs 199$.

The breast strap can connect to a smartphone via bluetooth (it is important to check compatibility). There are some apps for measuring HRV using a breast strap. I found this interesting: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.elitehrv.app&hl=en
It also seems to have biofeedback while breathing - hence quite similar to the emWave2. The breast strap is also the more versatile option, as it can be used to monitor ones heart rate over a longer time - as well as during training.

I will report my experiences once I have bought the breast strap and experimented with the app(s).
Used to have brain fog, flue-like symptoms, un-refreshing sleep, extreme exhaustion, muscle and joint pain, digestive problems, social anxiety, urge to urinate frequently.
Used niacin in the past. Now using nanna1's maintenance stack. Exhaustion and brain fog now main problem. 3-day POIS cycle

demografx

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Re: Pois, heart and HRV
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2017, 05:27:13 PM »
Cross-posted from NORD Interim thread about HRV. Also discusses Polyvagal Theory




https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-neuroscience-of-heart/



In Stef's post -- http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2086.45
-- she summarizes an early interim report, in which Dr Komisaruk discusses HRV (heart rate variability) and how it might relate to POIS.

This article seems to explain HRV in clear language.


« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 03:16:04 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business