My method for prevention and control of my POIS symptoms - 80% to 100% effective

[demografx]

This is a teriffic thread.

Thank you, Quantum.

[fathom]

Hi Quantum, wondering if there would be some kind of diagram/picture for your pre-pack?.   I am finding that I have trouble understanding textual material (the material appears foggy to me) until I can draw a picture may it even be over-simplification.  Before visiting this forum, I never had the notion that I might have what you folks called brain-fog, but now I increasingly think that I do suffer enormous amounts of it.  This acceptance is proving scary to me also since I recently learnt about pyschosomatic diseases, which I think mean, where you over-think about something to such an extent that your body actually reacts to it, kind of like self-induced injury?   

On your pre-pack, I noticed you are taking only 100 mg of Mg.   I understand your concern about the laxative effects of Mg, but isn't that too low a dosage to be of substantial value?   The 100% DV of Mg is 400milligrams.   Also which Mg type are you taking or recommend?  I started yesterday on a 400mg dosage of MgOxide/MgAspartate/MgCitrate, and also put an order for Magnesium L-threonate. 

My pre-pack/daily-pack is similar to nanna1 and partially yours.  While it has helped me TREMENDOUSLY in day-to-day symptoms i.e. before an o, however my POIS post o symptoms have had only a minor effect (instead of 7 days, maybe its now 6 days), so I'm still on the drawing board trying to figure out what to try next.

1 x L-Theanine 250mg (NMDAR blocker, and supposed mast cells stabilizer )

[Quantum]

Hi Fathom,

This is the exact magnesium preparation I take:  https://www.jamiesonvitamins.com/products/magnesium-100-mg  ( If you click on "ingredient information, you will see what kind of magnesium salts it is made of).   Back when I had only magnesium and green tea as defense against POIS, I would take much of these during the day, maybe 2 tablets, 3 times a day.  But it is no longer necessary, and 1 tablets of 100mg is enough, when taken with the rest of my pre-pack.  I prefer low doses of many things over high doses of a few things.

When you ask for a diagram, you mean a daigram of how it works?  You may take a look at http://fr.slideshare.net/adonissfera/tryptophan-and-madness/17-Cytokines_Come_in_Two_FlavorsProInflammatory   , a diagram showing how the kynurenin toxic products causes brain symptoms... Is that what you were looking for ?  ( In the diagram, take not that in addition to the abbreviaiton already defined, TRP = tryptophan, and 5-HT = serotonin).

[positive_guy]

So are POIS symptoms caused by toxins? Quantum, what do you think about also using detoxifying supplements?

[Quantum]

Hi PG,

In my hypothesis, cognitive and emotional symptoms ( all brain symptoms) are linked to toxic kynurenine products ( for more on this, see http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1988.msg15559#msg15559  ). 

Also, I think that the more our liver and overall body is clean/free of toxin, the less severe POIS is ( this last hypothesis is supported by the fact that, in addition to my personal results with overall liver support, some members like Kurtosis and nanna1 had great results on reducing their POIS by supporting a detoxification pathway of the liver called methylation).  I suggest you read my thread on liver detoxification at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2431.msg20521#msg20521
(First post gives explanations about why I think liver detoxification is important in POIS, and third post gives advice on how to do liver detox )

[Jimmy]

Hi Quantum,

Can you please provide a summary of the ingredients of your pre -pack ? Product name , dosage & the time you take it ( after a meal , on empty stomach ...  etc.)

Appreciated,

[Quantum]

Hi Quantum,

Can you please provide a summary of the ingredients of your pre -pack ? Product name , dosage & the time you take it ( after a meal , on empty stomach ...  etc.)

Appreciated,

Hi Jimmy,

My method is described in details at the beginning of this thread, in this post: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.msg16604#msg16604   ( there you will have the details of what is in my pre-pack, why, and what I do in addition to taking my pre-pack, as a overall control method)


I re-paste here the list of the components of my pre-pack:


1 x Quercetin 500mg / Bromelain 750GDU (TDO inhibitor, antioxidant, anti-allergy, mast cells stabilizer )
1x Peppered curcumin  (curcuma longa 400 mg + piperin 5mg) (IDO inhibitor , anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, mast cells stabilizer, anxiolytic )
1 x 5-HTP 50mg  ( serotonin precursor )
1 x Green tea extract 200mg ( antioxidant,  raises blood pressure, potentiation of 5-HTP in the brain by inhibiting its peripheral metabolism by Dopadecarboxylase , NMDAR blocker, mast cells stabilizer [EGCG] )
1x Magnesium 100mg / tablet (NMDAR blocker, potassium regulator)
2x Flaxseed oil,  1000mg/caps ( NMDAR blocker, antioxidant )
1x Omega-# triple concentration ( 600mg EPA,  300mg DHA)
1 x Lycopene  10mg (antioxidant having an affinity for the prostate )
1 x L-Theanine 250mg (NMDAR blocker, and supposed mast cells stabilizer )
1 x potassium citrate ( electrolytic rebalancing) ( IMPORTANT WARNING:  I personally have a tendency to low potassium , = hypokalemia. This is a personal condition, so, do not take potassium supplements without the advice of your health professional,  if you take too much of it for your own needs, it can be dangerous, and can even cause fatal cardiac arrhythmia )


If I have time to, I swallow the 11 pieces of my pack with « rosemary water », that is, a glass of water with one drop of rosemary essential oil mixed in it ( rosmarinic acid act as an IDO inhibitor, and also has gaba-enhancing properties through GABA transaminase inhibition, and rosemary also contains luteolin, a mast cells stabilizer ).

It is best if taken 20 to 40 minutes before release, so all the active ingredients have been distributed in the blood and tissues, so they are present to inhibit the internal reactions leading to my POIS symptoms.   I usually take my pre-pack on an empty stomach because of time of day that sexual activity occurs, but it would work anyway on a full stomach, I would only let more time for the ingredients to be absorbed, since it would be delayed ( absorption is faster on an empty stomach).  I would then take it like 60 to 45 minutes before release.

Don't hesitate to ask if you have any other questions.

[Jimmy]

Thank you very much for the comprehensive reply !

[positive_guy]

@Quantum, i've reordered your stack now and will start taking it before orgasm in the future, which i didn't do yet. Right now i also take the Cascade stack 1-2 times daly. What's your opinion about those supplements, and would the interfere in any way with your stack?

The POIS Cascade stack:
On an empty stomach with water or juice, twice daily (water soluble):
---SAM-e (enteric coated)(200mg) [terminal methyl donor, a1A downregulator]
---pyridoxine HCl, vitamin B6 (2mg - 25mg) [homocysteine regulator]
---Metafolin, vitamin B9 (200mcg) [methyl group cycler]
---cyanocobalamin, vitamin B12 (50mcg) [methyl group cycler]
---Pick from one of the following three methyl group donors:
    1. tri-methylglycine, betaine (1.5g) [methyl group donor]
    2. alpha-glycerophosphocholine, alpha-GPC (1.2g) [methyl group donor]
    3. phosphatidylcholine, Lecithin concentrate (1.5g) [methyl group donor]
With food, twice daily (fat soluble):
---Benfotiamine, vitamin B1 (150mg) [h1H downregulator]
---eicosapentaenoic acid, EPA (900mg) [AA synthesis inhibitor, AA blocker]
---docosahexaenoic acid, DHA (150mg) [AA synthesis inhibitor]
---vitamin D3 (1000 IU) [AA inflammatory enzyme regulator, IDO/TDO down-regulator]


Also what's your thoughts on Maca, Siberian Ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus), Fenugreek, Tribulus, Saw Palmetto.

Right now i'm in a phase where after doing a little too much physical work (cleaning the house) i'm in a kind of damped state including erectile issues and a sort of overal num feeling. That's one of the sates i'm familiar with in connection with POIS and it occurs every once in a while. I also had skin rash for about a week. I often think that POIS has some connection to some sort of bacteria or virus, or maybe those just have it easier when the body is weak.

[Quantum]

Hi PG,

My opinion on this is that, personally, I have chosen not to take supplements every day, and the intention in developing my pre-pack was to take my pre-pack on a as-needed basis, because when out of POIS, I am quite healthy.   I take some supplements very often, like Vit D 1000ui because I live up north where winter is long and sunshine is scarce.  Nanna's stack is based on a daily intake. He has explained that his stack take some time to give full results, like 1 to 2 months.  How long have you been taking Nanna's stack ? Is it because you do not have good results so far that you want to add a pre-pack?

I cannot state what you can take or not take - it is against forum rules, you have to consult a health professionnal for that - but if I look at those supplements themselves, there are no major interactions that can be predicted, only that DHA-EPA/omega-3 is in the two groups of supplements, so dosage must be adjusted.

The problem with taking both may become that it will be expensive to take all this on the long run, and also, you may end up not being sure of what is efficient for you or not.  A process of subtracting some supplements, one by one, and see if benefits remain, may become necessary some time in the future.


I have already stated that I avoid products like maca and tribulus terrestris, and chinese ginseng ( different from Siberian) because I do not want more libido, obviously a problem when you have POIS.  I may have a good method of control, it has its limits, and I prefer my releases to be few and far between, my life is much easier that way.


I do not use Siberian ginseng, so cannot comment...   I do well with my current pre-pack, so I do not try much new things, currently.  Same for saw palmetto, but some members had benefits from it, in particular those who have pain/inflammation felt in the prostate region after release ( not my case).  I do include supplements that are good for prostate inflammation in my pre-pack, notably, quercetine and lycopene.

Fenugreek is fairly good for me, I tried it when I first found this forum.  It helps the liver, I take it in this regard, from time to time, and it seems to helps with oxytocin a bit, because sometime it makes me more "friendly".   But other members have had more impressive results than me with it, so you have to try and see for you.  It is safe at normal dose, but some have body odor issues with it, in particular at first, when detoxing occurs  ( with my green smoothies regimen, and my very healthy diet, I have no body odors anymore when taking fenugreek, my detox is "up to date" )

I hoep this help, ad don't forget to get enough sleep, relaxation and rest, POIS is worsen by fatigue and stress, in my case, though, and I suspect it is the same for most members!

[positive_guy]

I mainly use fenugreek and siberian ginseng to refill my manliness and power. POIS sometimes feels like lacking testosterone and energy, so those Supplements feel kinda logical to me to take.

[Hopeoneday]

Hi to all. I am severe poiser. i decided to register in this forum. Its been about one year i discover this place. I want to give a BIG THANKS to user like Quantum, Demografx , Nana1...an all odhers who give very much help to as.

Quantum, you give to me so much hope with your resarch with methaylation antiinflamatory, ido tdo etc...
For some poisers is key solution metabolism repair (because somwhere something
not working like in normal people).

Quantum , i read that you consume a lot of leafy greens , i find this article. https://www.samanthagilbert.com/methylfolate-vs-folic-acid-facts-myths/
where is about methaylation, and claim that people who is udermethalayted
hawe more bad than god benefits from takin greens rich in folic acid b9...
because folic acid act as serotonin reuptake. That mean that you hawe les serotonin, gaba in brain etc... maybe i am read somethin wrong.
 

I think olso for some poisers can benefit from gaba increase in brain as i read some
of them is helped selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.
Bad english sory. And in pois state.

[demografx]

Hopeoneday, welcome to POISCenter!

[Quantum]

Hi to all. I am severe poiser. i decided to register in this forum. Its been about one year i discover this place. I want to give a BIG THANKS to user like Quantum, Demografx , Nana1...an all odhers who give very much help to as.

Quantum, you give to me so much hope with your resarch with methaylation antiinflamatory, ido tdo etc...
For some poisers is key solution metabolism repair (because somwhere something
not working like in normal people).

Quantum , i read that you consume a lot of leafy greens , i find this article. https://www.samanthagilbert.com/methylfolate-vs-folic-acid-facts-myths/
where is about methaylation, and claim that people who is udermethalayted
hawe more bad than god benefits from takin greens rich in folic acid b9...
because folic acid act as serotonin reuptake. That mean that you hawe les serotonin, gaba in brain etc... maybe i am read somethin wrong.
 

I think olso for some poisers can benefit from gaba increase in brain as i read some
of them is helped selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.
Bad english sory. And in pois state.

Hi Hopeoneday,

Thanks for your words of appreciation ! 

About methylation and the article you give the link to, there is still much confusion in all this "undermetylated" and "overmethylated" debate on the interent.  You can find very active and respected people that will say the exact opposite of what this article says ( for example, Dr Lynch, on his well-known mthfr.com site).   Personnally, I think that those notions and test are too new and have not been tested enough in good old scientific studies, and are still not adopted by mainstream medical practice, so for now, some caution is advised about these affirmations, be it one side or the other.   All this field of "metabolic medicine", back up by the also quite knew DNA testing and detection of personal SNPs in your genetic code, iwll grow in the next decades, and information will get more reliable.

For now, I prefer to talk about supporting the whole of the liver detoxificaiton process, and not talking about mehtylation, which is only one of these process.  See my thread on liver detoxification at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2431.msg20521#msg20521 , for more details. 

Also, I prefer to get all the nutriments needed for a good overall detox in healthy food, rather than taking high doses of some single supplements ( you will see on the interent, for example, that some person advice to take huge doses of methylfolate.... I think that's not safe, and not wise).  Moreover, when I tried methylfolate 3 years ago, I had a bad reaction to it.   But I have a good result with fruits and veggies.   Kurtosis, one of the first member here who have written about methylation, also wrote that he had better results with fruits and veggies than with mehtylation support supplements only.  I think it is because healthy fruits and veggies bring much more than just methylfolate, and help restart all of the phase I pathways of liver detoxification, as well as the 7 or 8 phase II detoxification pathways, indlucing mehtylation.   So, if your problem is with sulfonation rather than methylation, you get covered too when you eat whole healthy food.

I think that a nice mix of organic fruits and organic vegetables are what best meets the "manufacturer's standards", and are what our bodies need for optimal health.

At any rate, when you first start green smoothies or other ways to raise your intake of vegetables and fruits, go slowly, start with low to moderate quantities, because you will start up detox processes that may have been dormant for a while, and this may cause effects in the body, like itching, weird sensations, etc...   Drinking a lot of source water helps during detox - it will help "take the trash out" of the body.   As tolerance allows it, you can then slowly raise the amount you are eating every day.  I didn't have much issues when I started, only mild "adaptation" symptoms, and after 1 or 2 months, my detox was "up-to-date" and could take my smoothies without any noticeable negative effect, and could, on the opposite, feel more energized.







 

[hapl]

I've had POIS in some form or fashion for a number of years.

I've found that it's highly dependent on my current condition as well. If I'm generally feeling okay, it's usually not too bad. But when I'm feeling under the weather (more on that to come), then it can be debilitating for days or even a week plus.

(Possibly I should open another thread on this, but will add here for the moment?)

A couple years ago I injured my knee exercising. Weirdly it never properly healed despite physical therapy, acupuncture, etc. Nothing is structurally wrong (no torn ACL or MCL, etc), but I am unable to strengthen it. Other muscles have also gotten significantly weaker during this period.

During this time, my POIS got significantly worse. Before it was a minor annoyance, now it's become impossible.

I've tried many supplements with some moderate success (garlic, D-ribose, etc). But recently tried Quantum's pre-pack.

Used everything other than a couple items - no electrolytes (drank some gatorade instead) and lycopene and quercetin. The rest I took.

I found that the first 24 hours were much improved. But around 24 hours in I started feeling worse. Now I'm around 48 hours and feeling still worse - fatigue, brain fog, headache, hypotension, etc. I took some Taurine and D-ribose and TMG and Ginkgo, but only a modest improvement.

Reading Quantum's posts about hypotension, when I'm feeling poorly, I also tend to have a low systolic and sometimes a low pulse pressure. (Because of my other health issues, I've monitored such things).

I've seen a number of posts about what to take besides the pre-pack. Curious in relation to hypotension and brain fog and fatigue: what would be the best supplement mix?

Is it good to take 5-htp and magnesium, or leave those for the pre-pack. Taurine, TMG, Ginkgo, ALA, Alpha GPC, Eleuthero, Astragalus, Milk Thistle, etc. I guess I'm curious which pre-pack items I should take until POIS is definitely finished, and which items I should add on off days?

Thanks for this resource - it's such a specific thing that most people have never heard of.

[demografx]

hapi, welcome to POISCenter!

[Quantum]

Hi hapi,

Low blood pressure is very important to manage, because it really makes us feel very tired, weak and lightheaded.


I re-paste here the part about hypotension, from the initial post of this thread:

"For low blood pressure: Currently, I have no more low blood pressure problems if I take my pre-pack correctly.  However, If I notice after release that my BP is becoming borderline low ( which is for me, something like 107/68), I take some rosemary or some green tea extract, or sometime another 25mg of 5-HTP with some green tea extract. Also, as needed throughout the day, I take water with salt added to it ( salt causes fluid retention, which makes blood pressure to raise - that's why salt must be avoided by those who have hypertension).  Salted water is cheap and very effective to raise blood pressure.   For tolerance, you have to see what one's is able to take.  I can take 1/4 teaspoon in a glass of water with no problem.  It takes about 20 to 30 mins to show results on the blood monitor.  Once my diastolic ( the second, smaller figure) raises at 70 or higher, I feel ok.
Having no more hypotension and extreme fatigue is in itself a great, great success for me in POIS control, and can be accounted as a 50% relief at least.  Hypotension has been causing me a loooooot of fatigue, lightheadedness, intolerance to exercise, cold sweat, depressive feelings,  sense of powerlessness, trouble going through my day at work, and so on …."

So, to answer your question, hapi, yes, taking 5-HTP and green tea helps for hypotension.  Electrolytes help too, so taking magnesium, potassium, help.  But, mainly, taking salt in water is cheap and very effective at raising blood pressure. I also have good results with one drop of rosemary essential oil in water, but it as a camphor-like taste, but personally, I have no problem with that. 

One way I had recently discover to replenish my electrolytes, and I do use it after sport, is to take coconut water.  It is a natural way to take up magnesium, potassium, and other electrolytes.  It has become very popular here, and is sold in small packs or larger bottles.  I never tried this one for POIS, because my current method is already effective enough.

Once hypotension is managed, it is easier to see what helps for the other symptoms.  For me, like I said, hypotension was very debilitating, and could count for as much as 50% of the problems I had in POIS.   

[hapl]

I seem to often have around 105/70 blood pressure - although when I feel better it's usually right at 120/80. I haven't tried the salt water yet, but gatorade (lots of sodium), electrolyte pills, salty foods and green tea, none of those seems to make much of a difference.

I tried a pre-pack consisting of Magnesium, Curcumin, Bromelain, Vit C, Fenugreek, Theanine, 5-HTP, Quercetin, Lycopene. I found that it made me a bit shaky (almost like too much caffeine on an empty stomach), but otherwise POIS was definitely reduced by a a day or two (normally 3-5 days, here it felt more like 1-2 days).

Which items in the pre-pack do you think are most important? And any idea which part might cause the shakiness feeling? I often take Magnesium, Fenugreek, Quercetin, Bromelain, Vit C, Curcumin. I am new to Theanine, Lycopene, 5-HTP.

The next day I took some taurine, TMG, and normal supplements. I also took some Tribulus, but discontinued as I feel like it may have affected my mood.

[Hopeoneday]

Nice link https://bebrainfit.com/serotonin-supplements

[Quantum]

I seem to often have around 105/70 blood pressure - although when I feel better it's usually right at 120/80. I haven't tried the salt water yet, but gatorade (lots of sodium), electrolyte pills, salty foods and green tea, none of those seems to make much of a difference.

I tried a pre-pack consisting of Magnesium, Curcumin, Bromelain, Vit C, Fenugreek, Theanine, 5-HTP, Quercetin, Lycopene. I found that it made me a bit shaky (almost like too much caffeine on an empty stomach), but otherwise POIS was definitely reduced by a a day or two (normally 3-5 days, here it felt more like 1-2 days).

Which items in the pre-pack do you think are most important? And any idea which part might cause the shakiness feeling? I often take Magnesium, Fenugreek, Quercetin, Bromelain, Vit C, Curcumin. I am new to Theanine, Lycopene, 5-HTP.

The next day I took some taurine, TMG, and normal supplements. I also took some Tribulus, but discontinued as I feel like it may have affected my mood.

Hi hapl,

First, I am very glad for you that you have found at least some relief for your POIS.  Having a 3 to 4 day reduction is a great leap forward in the management of your POIS, and with refinement of your method, I am confident you will get better results still.   

I cannot tell for sure which supplement made you shaky, but I suggest you start with those you are familiar with, and then, add only one new item to your pack at a time, so you can discern which one causes the over-stimulation.  From there, you can than reduce the dosage of the suspected supplement, and see the results the next time.   For example, if you try a pack with all the supplement you are use to, you will see if you have this shakiness effect ( you may have less relief, but you have to go slowly to get to consistent and valuable results).   then, if all right, you can add, next time, a new one, like 5-HTP.  If the side effect shows up, try with a very low dose of 5-HTP, maybe 1/4 of the dose that causes the side effect.  You could also choose to put this one supplement aside, and try adding other ones, and slowly customize your own pre-pack this way. 

At any rate, some of what you have taken in your current pre-pack is useful for you, because you get a marked reduction in duration. So, take notes on what have been effective, keep those as a stable foundation, and slowly add to your back upon what's already known to be beneficial.  Keep up the testing, be rigorous in your approach and note everything ( composition of the tested pre-pack, time taken, results, % of relief both on severity and duration... ), and in a few months, you will have progressed a lot, and will have more and more relief of your symptoms.  That's not a cure, but your quality of life will skyrocket

( P.S. for raising blood pressure when in POIS, rosemary essential oil is one of the best for me, one drop in half a glass of water, and, as you mentioned, salted water too)