Author Topic: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study  (Read 226463 times)

Quantum

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2015, 12:32:49 PM »
Im not 100% agree with you Quantum. But maybe we should open another topic because I don't want to polluate this one.

Hi b_jim,

I think it could be a good idea to start a thread about heart rate variability (HRV).  Since it will be used in the study results, it will be a good thing for everyone to know what it means, and be able to better understand the study results when they will come out.

I will be very interested in further discussing with you, and everyone else, about HRV.  It is not a simple and straighforward concept, and it is not all black-and-white, in particular if you add the concept of frequency bands   ( for example, in PTSD, the high frequencies shows a decreased HRV, and the low frequencies shows a higher HRV).   

Maybe, by the time we will have the complete results of the study, we will have become HRV experts !


P.S:  I have just seen you have started a thread on HRV, thanks, so the HRV discussion will move there.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:35:32 PM by Quantum »
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demografx

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2015, 03:53:41 PM »
I wonder if my 5-way cardiac bypass 5 years ago is somehow related?

You mean your POIS got less severe after your bypasses have been done, Demo?

Thanks, Quantum, I was wondering if my heart problems - that led to this surgery - were somehow related to my lifetime of severe POIS. Just speculating.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Quantum

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2015, 08:38:09 PM »
Does cardio increase the HRV? For some reason cardio kinda lowered my pois symptoms, when I remember it right.

Hi Staypositive,

Yes, exercise training increase HRV  ( Here's the first study I have fund after a quick search for one : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903986/ )

I have started regular exercise two times a week , for 4 years now, and it has been beneficial for my overall health, but also in reducing the severity and duration of my POIS.
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Quantum

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2015, 09:17:06 PM »

You may or may not not notice the decreased heart rate while you're experiencing POIS symptoms, but I don't think one can measure his/her HRV. It's a value that's measured via a specialized monitor.

Stef

Hi Stef,

Just to let you and everybody else know, there are now many products and devices that are available in order to monitor your HRV, thanks to its popularity in the fitness world, in particular ( higher HRV is linked to peak performance).   In this era of smartphones, there are many apps available for this purpose, some being free, some other paid for ( for lists of both free and paid apps, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability#Consumer_Apps_For_HRV ). 

I don't know much about the free apps.  In the paid for apps, I think the most popular are Ithlete, Bioforce and Sweetbeats.   I personally have experience only with the Heartmath products, and I think they are excellent products,  because of their pioneering work on HRV, and their ever on-going research on HRV ( but unfortunately, their phone apps are only iOS for now, no Android apps).

Take note that most smartphone apps need a heart monitor belt that you plug into your mobile for data input ( compatibility have to be checked between particular belts and specific apps).  However, I have read that some free apps can work with putting your fingertip on the phone's camera, who detect small color change ( I don't know how well that works).


There are also standalone small devices, like the emWave2 of HeartMath, and there are also many desktop computer products ( like the one I bought in 2004).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 09:22:43 PM by Quantum »
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demografx

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2015, 10:02:03 PM »
Quote
I wonder if my 5-way cardiac bypass 5 years ago is somehow related?

Yes, I think so ! I remember I wrote a post and I said it's possible that Poisers will have cardiac problems with age. I think we have some poisers in this case.


Thanks, b_jim!
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

username

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2015, 04:38:40 AM »
Hello friends ....... i was very less active on forum, but i am very acute sufferer of POIS n paying very very high price for it... i am from india(have resident status of canada) and recent i got admitted in one of India's premier health institute to investigate about POIS certainly as we all have gone through one sided convincing communication to doctors. they said nothing like POIS exists ....n told you are suffering from DHAT syndrome. so thats the story .  i am very happy to see Dr K research ..... as our all life is staked with outcomes of research ..... hope we get a solution... years back i noticed that when i was working out heavyly with takinig supllements n multivits my symptoms reduced i also took fish oil caps. but at that time i could not establish that which thing was reducing my symptoms...... ....... one thing i wish tell is now i have started taking cod liver oil caps for general health....and i have noticed a change in POIS symptoms and main thing is i am not taking it on demand for POIS (like niacin). i know there is now the focus is on vagus nerve and HRV ....but i want you guys to try it...... to establish any benefit from it ...as it has anti inflammatory effect n its good for heart too...........thanks

http://thelowhistaminechef.com/the-vagus-nerve-inflammation-connection/
http://www.wellnessresources.com/health_topics/cardiovascular-health/omega3.php
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/789938
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3082733/
http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/
http://welltellme.com/discuss/index.php?topic=19042.30
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.in/2009/09/vagus-nerve-controls-gut-inflammation.html
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 05:06:45 AM by username »

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FloppyBanana

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2015, 06:37:24 AM »
Hello friends ....... i was very less active on forum, but i am very acute sufferer of POIS n paying very very high price for it... i am from india(have resident status of canada) and recent i got admitted in one of India's premier health institute to investigate about POIS certainly as we all have gone through one sided convincing communication to doctors. they said nothing like POIS exists ....n told you are suffering from DHAT syndrome. so thats the story .  i am very happy to see Dr K research ..... as our all life is staked with outcomes of research ..... hope we get a solution... years back i noticed that when i was working out heavyly with takinig supllements n multivits my symptoms reduced i also took fish oil caps. but at that time i could not establish that which thing was reducing my symptoms...... ....... one thing i wish tell is now i have started taking cod liver oil caps for general health....and i have noticed a change in POIS symptoms and main thing is i am not taking it on demand for POIS (like niacin). i know there is now the focus is on vagus nerve and HRV ....but i want you guys to try it...... to establish any benefit from it ...as it has anti inflammatory effect n its good for heart too...........thanks

http://thelowhistaminechef.com/the-vagus-nerve-inflammation-connection/
http://www.wellnessresources.com/health_topics/cardiovascular-health/omega3.php
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/789938
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3082733/
http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/
http://welltellme.com/discuss/index.php?topic=19042.30
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.in/2009/09/vagus-nerve-controls-gut-inflammation.html

THANKS USERNAME!
30 years of POIS. Mytelase after O with Iceman breathing technique.

Quantum

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2015, 01:46:10 PM »
Hello friends ....... i was very less active on forum, but i am very acute sufferer of POIS n paying very very high price for it... i am from india(have resident status of canada) and recent i got admitted in one of India's premier health institute to investigate about POIS certainly as we all have gone through one sided convincing communication to doctors. they said nothing like POIS exists ....n told you are suffering from DHAT syndrome. so thats the story .  i am very happy to see Dr K research ..... as our all life is staked with outcomes of research ..... hope we get a solution... years back i noticed that when i was working out heavyly with takinig supllements n multivits my symptoms reduced i also took fish oil caps. but at that time i could not establish that which thing was reducing my symptoms...... ....... one thing i wish tell is now i have started taking cod liver oil caps for general health....and i have noticed a change in POIS symptoms and main thing is i am not taking it on demand for POIS (like niacin). i know there is now the focus is on vagus nerve and HRV ....but i want you guys to try it...... to establish any benefit from it ...as it has anti inflammatory effect n its good for heart too...........thanks

(1) http://thelowhistaminechef.com/the-vagus-nerve-inflammation-connection/
(2) http://www.wellnessresources.com/health_topics/cardiovascular-health/omega3.php
(3) http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/789938
(4) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3082733/
(5)  http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/
(6) http://welltellme.com/discuss/index.php?topic=19042.30
(7) http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.in/2009/09/vagus-nerve-controls-gut-inflammation.html

Thanks for the links, username. They help in the understanding of HRV ( heart rate variability), vagal nerve stimulation, inflammation, and how they all relate.

I have numberer, in your post above, the links you have given us, in order to facilitate the following comments:

(1) Many good scientific references about vagal stimulation and how it is link to inflammation, and at the end, good suggestions about natural ways to stimulate the vagal nerve:  meditation, yoga, healthy diet ( things that, in my case, have been shown beneficial in the relief of POIS ).  She adds tricks like coughing, contracting the defecation muscles, and so on.

(2)  Omega-3 ( in particular,, the DHA in them) supports Heart Rate Variability ( HRV ) and improve vagal nerve tone.  (If the Rutgers study hypothesis are confirmed, then Omega-3 are definitively good for POIS.  That is my personal experience, though.  And not only for the DHA/cardio-vascular benefits, but for the EPA/emotional benefits as well.  A winner for me)

(3) very interesting study, showing omega-3 intake is beneficial for HRV, by "augmenting vagal tone, modulating adrenergic-mediated baroreceptor activity, and improving sinoatrial node function as reflected by reductions in erratic sinus firing."

(4) another study on the benefits of vagal nerve stimulation for systemic inflammation

(5) a very extensive list of ways to stimulate the vagus nerve ( much longer than ref #1).  The short introduction at the beginning of the list may help many members in understanding why the Rutgers study involves vagus nerve stimulation, a growing field of research, currently.


Thanks for this information, username.  And I am happy for you that you see some improvement with cod liver oil.  I also do benefit form omega-3, but take them from standardized fish oil supplements, with measured DHA and EPA contents, in order to know I much I take of these, in term of mg.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 10:33:51 AM by Quantum »
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Quantum

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2015, 02:03:26 PM »
I am still wondering about the findings talked about in the interim report, about the effectiveness of vagal nerve stimulation (VNS) against POIS.  A lower heart rate ( as found by the team in POISers) is usually caused by a stronger vagal tone, and stimulating the vagal nerve ( VNS) shouldn't be of help, and making the heart rate slower still.  My vision of this must be too simplistic, obviously. 

The Rutgers team talks about a "re-bound", and POIS relief from VNS.  I think that there may be more to this than just the effect on the heart rate and HRV.  The vagus nerve is a very complex nerve with many branches, involved in many major organ.  Maybe it is the overall, total effect of the VNS, by a cascade of feedbacks and control mechanisms, that brings about POIS relief.  Then, the exact amount of VNS, and how it is applied in time, will be important.  Maybe too much or too little VNS can make things worst ?

More will be known when further info will be released by the Rutgers team.  It is even possible that the study brings clinical evidence of relief through VNS, but has no clue about the exact mechanism by which this relief occurs....   Even in the case that no specifics will be known, a basic treatment will be recognized ( for 100% POISers?  It would be the first! ), and research have to start somewhere - one things leads to another.  And it is possible the the findings will be much better than that. 



« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 09:53:46 PM by Quantum »
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COLM_2

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2015, 09:29:26 AM »
Hi Username,

Thanks for posting this fine information including the Vagus Nerve awareness link, a very comprehensive posting. Very educational indeed http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/

Also, T U Quantum for adding the outline of Username's shared content, to encourage some further reading that might inform some healthcare choices for the guys.

Your mention of cod liver oil. Be careful. As with all choices, do pay attention please to recommended daily doses. When at my worst of pois in my early 20's , was overdosing on cod liver oil mistakenly believing more and more would make me healthy. It didn't on its own of course. Was sadly taking close to two bottles of CLO about every week (pre-internet information). Made me very ill, but the desperation of trying this to cure (the dermatitis part of) POIS made my thinking flawed.

All in moderation now and a 3 year nutritional/supplementation approach, along with lifestyle, (a carefully managed sex life, work permitting) and also exercise (gym/running) are helping with gradually promoting immune strength, evolving wellness and health for me personally. The POIS information related to Vagal could also "potentially" be another key chain in the link that brings us all more health and stability here.

Facing into my most healthy year end holiday in decades. Not cured, but starting to gradually believe !

Good wishes to you all. and thanks for all the shared information here.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 06:21:06 AM by COLM_2 »
Formerly user COLM (previous username accidentally deleted). Few decades with POIS.

username

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2015, 12:52:15 PM »
Hi Username,

Thanks for posting this fine information including the Vagus Nerve awareness link, a very comprehensive posting. Very educational indeed http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/

Also, T U Quantum for adding the outline of Username's shared content, to encourage some further reading that might inform some healthcare choices for the guys.

Your mention of cod liver oil. Be careful. As with all choices, do pay attention please to recommended daily doses. When at my worst of pois in my early 20's , I was overdosing on cod liver oil mistakenly believing more and more would make me healthy. It didn't on its own of course. Was sadly taking two large bottles of CLO a week. Made me very ill, but the desperation of trying this to cure (the dermatitis part) POIS made my thinking flawed.

All in moderation now and a 3 year nutritional/supplementation approach, along with lifestyle, (a carefully managed sex life, work permitting) and also exercise (gym/running) are helping with gradually promoting immune strength, evolving wellness and health for me personally. The POIS information related to Vagal could also "potentially" be another key chain in the link that brings us all more health and stability here.

Facing into my most healthy year end holiday in decades. Not cured, but starting to gradually believe !

Good wishes to you all. and thanks for all the shared information here.


Thank you buddy for info .... i still doing trials on cod liver oil , n i want others too do it , to see any benefit...........and yes in excess CLO is bad ...its general usage should not exceed 3 g a day

Prancer

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2015, 05:19:08 PM »
Can't think of a better way to kick off this Christmas/holiday season than hearing all this new info about the research findings! I know it's not set in stone yet, but it's very encouraging to hear.
Thank you to Stef and everyone involved in the research itself and the relay of the findings. The idea of abnormal neurotransmitter release (and the relation to the vagus nerve) that Stef mentioned is pretty interesting to hear. It's still very, very early, but those preliminary results are still really promising, and for sure a GREAT way to close out 2015!

Looking forward to learning more in the upcoming weeks & months. Happy Holidays and New Year you guys! Don't party too hard. Nvm, party as hard as you want!

demografx

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2015, 03:46:25 AM »

Can't think of a better way to kick off this Christmas/holiday season than hearing all this new info about the research findings! I know it's not set in stone yet, but it's very encouraging to hear.
Thank you to Stef and everyone involved in the research itself and the relay of the findings. The idea of abnormal neurotransmitter release (and the relation to the vagus nerve) that Stef mentioned is pretty interesting to hear. It's still very, very early, but those preliminary results are still really promising, and for sure a GREAT way to close out 2015!

Looking forward to learning more in the upcoming weeks & months. Happy Holidays and New Year you guys! Don't party too hard. Nvm, party as hard as you want!





...party as hard as you want!




...but be careful with POIS !!

10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Stef

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2015, 01:48:29 PM »
Can't think of a better way to kick off this Christmas/holiday season than hearing all this new info about the research findings! I know it's not set in stone yet, but it's very encouraging to hear.
Thank you to Stef and everyone involved in the research itself and the relay of the findings. The idea of abnormal neurotransmitter release (and the relation to the vagus nerve) that Stef mentioned is pretty interesting to hear. It's still very, very early, but those preliminary results are still really promising, and for sure a GREAT way to close out 2015!

Looking forward to learning more in the upcoming weeks & months. Happy Holidays and New Year you guys! Don't party too hard. Nvm, party as hard as you want!

Hi, Prancer --

Thank you for all of your positive, upbeat, and always supportive posts!

I agree with you. The research sounds very encouraging.

(Belated) Happy Hanukah & Happy Festivus, Merry Christmas and Happy/Healthy New year to all of you!

Stef
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 05:48:25 PM by Stef »

BluesBrother

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #75 on: December 25, 2015, 11:36:33 AM »
You may or may not not notice the decreased heart rate while you're experiencing POIS symptoms, but I don't think one can measure his/her HRV. It's a value that's measured via a specialized monitor.

Some time ago I had checked whether any of the fitness bands currently on the market could be used to measure heart rate variability. In principle, all devices which measure heart rate continuously, should collect the necessary data to compute heart rate variability. The problem is that one does not get access to the raw data (the timing between heart beats over time) but only to aggregate statistics (heart rate per minute) via the companies' apps or heart rate monitors. This is unfortunate. Another question is of course whether the devices are precise enough in their measurement of heart rates. In general, devices with breast straps are more precise than devices which measure heart rate at one's wrist. When researching heart rate monitors, I found a startup which is developing an open source fitness band which will allow one to access the raw data. If HRV variability turns out to be an important metric to monitor, that could be a potential solution in the future. You can check it out here: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/angel-the-first-open-sensor-for-health-and-fitness#/
Used to have brain fog, flue-like symptoms, un-refreshing sleep, extreme exhaustion, muscle and joint pain, digestive problems, social anxiety, urge to urinate frequently.
Used niacin in the past. Now using nanna1's maintenance stack. Exhaustion and brain fog now main problem. 3-day POIS cycle

BluesBrother

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #76 on: December 25, 2015, 01:18:49 PM »

You may or may not not notice the decreased heart rate while you're experiencing POIS symptoms, but I don't think one can measure his/her HRV. It's a value that's measured via a specialized monitor.

Stef

Hi Stef,

Just to let you and everybody else know, there are now many products and devices that are available in order to monitor your HRV, thanks to its popularity in the fitness world, in particular ( higher HRV is linked to peak performance).   In this era of smartphones, there are many apps available for this purpose, some being free, some other paid for ( for lists of both free and paid apps, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate_variability#Consumer_Apps_For_HRV ). 

I don't know much about the free apps.  In the paid for apps, I think the most popular are Ithlete, Bioforce and Sweetbeats.   I personally have experience only with the Heartmath products, and I think they are excellent products,  because of their pioneering work on HRV, and their ever on-going research on HRV ( but unfortunately, their phone apps are only iOS for now, no Android apps).

Take note that most smartphone apps need a heart monitor belt that you plug into your mobile for data input ( compatibility have to be checked between particular belts and specific apps).  However, I have read that some free apps can work with putting your fingertip on the phone's camera, who detect small color change ( I don't know how well that works).


There are also standalone small devices, like the emWave2 of HeartMath, and there are also many desktop computer products ( like the one I bought in 2004).

I somehow had missed your post. Technology moves fast - indeed there are now apps which can be combined with breast straps. The Wikipedia article you mention is a good starting point.
Used to have brain fog, flue-like symptoms, un-refreshing sleep, extreme exhaustion, muscle and joint pain, digestive problems, social anxiety, urge to urinate frequently.
Used niacin in the past. Now using nanna1's maintenance stack. Exhaustion and brain fog now main problem. 3-day POIS cycle

demografx

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2015, 02:27:21 PM »

Can't think of a better way to kick off this Christmas/holiday season than hearing all this new info about the research findings! I know it's not set in stone yet, but it's very encouraging to hear.
Thank you to Stef and everyone involved in the research itself and the relay of the findings. The idea of abnormal neurotransmitter release (and the relation to the vagus nerve) that Stef mentioned is pretty interesting to hear. It's still very, very early, but those preliminary results are still really promising, and for sure a GREAT way to close out 2015!

Looking forward to learning more in the upcoming weeks & months. Happy Holidays and New Year you guys! Don't party too hard. Nvm, party as hard as you want!





...party as hard as you want!





...but be careful with POIS !!






Whoops, Prancer, I almost forgot this PARTY HARD graphic for you! :)


10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

Vandemolen

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2015, 08:51:20 PM »
The question is: is it the POIS that causes cardiac arrhythmia Or do we get POIS because of cardiac arrhythmia after an O? It's known that allergies cause cardiac arrhythmia.
I checked my heart rate in a normal situation. It's 80. Normal is 60-80. I didn't check my heart rate after an O. But I think also people without POIS have a different heart rate after an O.

Funny that I saw on the Comedy Show How I met your Mother that a guy gets a heart monitor at home. They followed him whole day and asked what he did at a certain time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Change_of_Heart_(How_I_Met_Your_Mother)


Hi All,

Demo and Daveman just received the public portion of Dr. Komisaruk's interim report from NORD. Here it is --

"A preliminary interpretation of our current data is that POIS symptoms are accompanied by a lowered heart rate and heart rate variability (HRV), and that vagal stimulation may produce a beneficial effect on POIS symptoms (increased heart rate and HRV) as a 're-bound' from the vagal stimulation. These are very preliminary findings and continued research with additional participants is underway, to assess the reliability of these findings."

Stef
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 09:03:26 PM by Vandemolen »
POIS since 2000. Very bad since 2008. I knew that I have POIS since June 2010. Desensitization since March 2011. I stopped with desens in July 2016. I have 50% less POIS. And only 1 day of POIS. Purified CBD works for me, but I am allergic for CBD.

demografx

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Re: NORD Interim Report for POIS Study
« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2015, 09:37:28 PM »
Interesting, Vandemolen. I had cardiac arrhythmia most of my life till my 5-way bypass surgery. Since then the cardiac arrhythmias have stopped. Hard to relate to POIS because I started my POIS treatment years ago. I didn't study the cardiac angle.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business