PSOAS Muscle !

[G-man]

I think I might know what the cause of P.O.I.S. is, at least in my own case. If lower cross syndrome is severe enough, the muscle imbalance may cause semen to become trapped instead of being expelled during ejaculation.

The past two weeks I have been doing the eagle legs side twist stretch outlined on the page below and have noticed a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the duration and intensity of my symptoms. My legs go numb every time I do the stretch so that may be a sign that something is seriously wrong with my lower back. I also notice muscles around the prostate area start to loosen up and move when doing the stretch. I encourage everyone to try it.

https://www.doyouyoga.com/5-poses-to-stretch-your-quadratus-lumborum-34024/

G-Man

[POISse]

I think I might know what the cause of P.O.I.S. is, at least in my own case. If lower cross syndrome is severe enough, the muscle imbalance may cause semen to become trapped instead of being expelled during ejaculation.

The past two weeks I have been doing the eagle legs side twist stretch outlined on the page below and have noticed a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the duration and intensity of my symptoms. My legs go numb every time I do the stretch so that may be a sign that something is seriously wrong with my lower back. I also notice muscles around the prostate area start to loosen up and move when doing the stretch. I encourage everyone to try it.

https://www.doyouyoga.com/5-poses-to-stretch-your-quadratus-lumborum-34024/

G-Man

Interresting G-man,

If I stretch my legs I feel better after O. The problem is that if I stretch I will also have NE. If I don't stretch I always wake up before NE. Therefore I avoid stretching.

POISse

[G-man]

Interresting G-man,

If I stretch my legs I feel better after O. The problem is that if I stretch I will also have NE. If I don't stretch I always wake up before NE. Therefore I avoid stretching.

POISse

I try to do most of my stretching the first five days after O. After that, the probability of having a N.E. increases.
 

[paradoxx]

Very interesting stuff. I frequently have pain and irritations in and around my tailbone. After reading some of the things posted here and watching some videos about the psoas I think I should definitely get this checked out.

Related to the psoas muscle I also found some videos about tension and trauma releasing excercises (TRE) which is fascinating. I tried it a few times now, same result every time: Its a nice experience (the involuntary shaking during this practice feels almost orgasm-like) and afterwards I'm super relaxed and the way I walk seems more natural than it usually does. Anyone else tried this?

Thanks for opening this thread.

 

[G-man]

Related to the psoas muscle I also found some videos about tension and trauma releasing excercises (TRE) which is fascinating. I tried it a few times now, same result every time: Its a nice experience (the involuntary shaking during this practice feels almost orgasm-like) and afterwards I'm super relaxed and the way I walk seems more natural than it usually does. Anyone else tried this?

Are you able to provide instructions on how to do this?

[Quantum]

Hi G-Man,

See at https://www.4shared.com/file/lir1J5Jc/David%20Berceli%20-%20Trauma%20Releasing%20Exercises.avi.html


I have bookmarked this some time ago, but never really used it, maybe once or twice, but this instruction video is well done.

Let us know your experience, if you choose to give it a try.

[CuriousCharacter]

Holy schmokes, this is excellent.

I posted in another discussion about my experience at a 10-day meditation retreat earlier this year. All of my symptoms went away, beginning on day 3 and lasting for the duration of the retreat. I've never felt better.

Since I returned from the retreat, I've been trying to replicate the state I was in to no avail.

Well, after reading this thread, I felt determined to try to release my psoas. I set a timer for 40 minutes, laid down in the constructive rest position, and started performing holotropic breathing (breathing deeply in a circular pattern) while focusing intensely on the sensations in my psoas.

After 20 minutes or so, I began to experience sensations I haven't experienced since my meditation retreat. I felt those muscles begin to release, along with a heightened awareness of the sensations in my genitals. I continued doing the holotropic breathwork, and it kind of felt like I was "blowing up" my hips, pelvis, and genitalia, as if it was all one big balloon. Those muscles began to tense up involuntarily, which somehow seemed to give me relief.

After the 40 minutes was up, I stood up to walk to the bathroom, and then my knees did something odd. It felt as though my legs were buckling, and my knees were in pain. I gave up trying to go to the bathroom, and wound up limping to my couch and collapsing.

Then I started laughing, almost uncontrollably for a minute.

This reminded me of a YouTube video I watched a while back about TRE/bioenergetics. The guy said that his bioenergetic therapist told him to basically hump a couch for five minutes, loosening up the hips. Toward the end of the five minutes, he exploded in a fit of uncontrollable laughter.

One time I tried bioenergetics myself for an hour, and then had a horrible fit of road rage afterward.

My best explanation for this is that the body stores all sorts of trauma and repressed emotion in its musculature, and anything that releases muscular tension (meditation, holotropic breathing, TRE/bioenergetics, massage, yoga, psychedelics, etc.) can cause a release.

I'm going to experiment with this combination of the constructive rest position, holotropic breathing and sensory meditation over the next several days, and see if I can distill this into a recipe that anyone can follow.

[FernandoPOIS]

CuriousCharacter

I believe POIS is at least 90% related to muscle tension. Each one has different problems that lead to POIS. In my case the relief of muscle tension is what helps to have fewer symptoms.
In the case of the psoas muscle, it is interesting that one of the causes that it becomes tense and shortened is if there is weakness of the glutes. Butt weakness mainly occurs by staying long periods in the sitting position. These days it's the position we've been practically all day. We worked sitting up, drive the car seated, watch TV seated down, at home in front of the computer sitting down, went to the restaurant with friends and sat down.

Let's make it all better. Release the psoas and strength the gluteos!

[CuriousCharacter]

I think you're on to something, Fernando.

I just had my first ever craniosacral therapy session a couple hours ago.

I went into it expecting it to be a waste of money, but came out very surprised. It was basically what I'd imagine psychedelic therapy would be like, but without the visualizations. After about five minutes I was involuntarily shaking and crying my eyes out. I could feel so much tension getting released...

This is all gonna sound very unscientific, but is possible that we have some sort of instinctual "guard" up 24/7, trying to keep us safe? Is it possible that the ego is so terrified of vulnerability that it will ramp up the immune system, causing widespread inflammation, and keep the breathing shallow and the musculature tight to prevent the release of tension, trauma, heavy metals and even semen from our body?

[FernandoPOIS]

Curious

Many things happen and have no scientific explanation, but physical therapy and breathing have proven.
This other psychological issue really depends on one's feelings. But I agree with you that you wrote about vulnerability and trauma.

[swell]

I dont know about cranial or physical therapy I am a little agnostic on that approach, however I do believe instinctual guard 24x7 that you refer is at the root of our problem.  I think all of us had a terrified childhood.  Shallow breathing you refer and tight musculature  that prevents release of substances, I think that is spot on at least for me.  My speech issues are due to shallow breathing and all my life I have tried to loosen muscles, I keep tight vocal cords, but just unable to successfully do it substantially.  We have learnt and embedded shallow breathing and tightness so much into who we are that now in adulthood I dont know if its even possible to re-learn at a molecular level in our bodies.  I think a combination of behavioral (re-learning) plus some powerful medicine cocktail can maybe cure us.

This is all gonna sound very unscientific, but is possible that we have some sort of instinctual "guard" up 24/7, trying to keep us safe? Is it possible that the ego is so terrified of vulnerability that it will ramp up the immune system, causing widespread inflammation, and keep the breathing shallow and the musculature tight to prevent the release of tension, trauma, heavy metals and even semen from our body?

[Going less Crazy]

Did you have a change in diet while on the retreat?

[CuriousCharacter]

Did you have a change in diet while on the retreat?

The food was vegetarian. I ate a lot of fruit. On several days, all I ate was an apple and a banana at 6am, and then maybe a couple apples and bananas at noon. I typically didn't eat anything after 1pm.

Sometimes I'd eat rice, oatmeal, deserts or some curry. But my main staple was fruit. I didn't eat much, and I didn't sleep more than four hours a night. But I was filled with energy. I think my body was so relaxed that it was almost as if I was sleeping... lots of theta brainwaves.

Now that I've left the retreat, it's the opposite. I eat lots of fatty meat. Not many carbohydrates. And I tend to feast in the evening.

I'm planning to try out that diet again for a few days - mostly fruit in the morning, nothing in the evening - and see if it improves my symptoms. But my guess is that the state of complete and total relaxation was the real medicine there.

We have learnt and embedded shallow breathing and tightness so much into who we are that now in adulthood I dont know if its even possible to re-learn at a molecular level in our bodies.  I think a combination of behavioral (re-learning) plus some powerful medicine cocktail can maybe cure us.

I certainly hope so. As far as the medicine cocktail is concerned, high doses of magnesium are a lifesaver. And perhaps the occasional mushroom trip (although this may not be the best thing for someone with a MTHFR mutation).

What kinds of things are you doing to instill these behavioral changes?

[swell]

This could be the cure for POIS 'mushroom trip'.  I am just reading about it, goodness I never knew.  I have not tried and dont plan to since I would rather try it in hands of a capable person first time so I maximize the good results from it, but guys THIS IS IT.  Wow, Wow, this could cure SO MANY OTHER illnesses.  I dont know how to say it, but I believe that many kids have many problems growing up but most grow out of it.  The exception are the overly sensitive kids like we POIS suffererers dont have that learning opportunity (therapy alone does not help us) and we get stuck in our childhood problems.   Does anyone know if its possible to find capable practitioners that actually use something like these 'mushroom trips' and can retrain our flawed processes.   I am thinking for myself that I have intensely shallow breathing that I rob many organs from oxygenation, I think I have a flawed way of formulating my speech also, certain mental processes, but most imp. incorrect breathing pattern, when I am finishing my sentence I feel I'm choking and out of breadth.  Normal speech therapy, behavioral techniques, CBT's,  orthopedic or joint manipulations etc are not very useful (they work for a short time period and then our bodies immediately return to its flawed state) since we are now adults and our bodies is not easy to get retrained in a systemic way all through, but reading what I just did about mushroom trips, I think we can cure our flawed processes THOUGH there needs to be practitioners trained in this art.  Guys could you chime?   

fyi: Magnesium does NOTHING for me.  I have tried Magtein (Magnesium-L-Theoronate) supposed to cross BBB effectively.

[CuriousCharacter]

Does anyone know if its possible to find capable practitioners that actually use something like these 'mushroom trips' and can retrain our flawed processes.

Johns Hopkins is doing lots of research on psychedelic therapy, but the practice remains illegal in the United States. There are psychedelic retreats outside of the US though. Many of them incorporate other practices like meditation, holotropic breathing, etc. You can find lists of these retreats online:

https://retreat.guru/be/spirit-plant-medicine

There's also a website called The Third Wave that is on the cutting edge of this stuff. Definitely worth checking out: https://thethirdwave.co/

My first real mushroom trip happened earlier this year at a music festival. In a period of a few hours, I experienced what seemed equivalent to a few years of psychotherapy. I had the sensation that the weight of the world had lifted off my shoulders. The sense of calm was... almost unbelievable.

Psilocybin really has a knack for shooting you back into your body, and telling you exactly what's wrong in your mind, body and spirit. Even a large microdose (say 0.5g) will have that effect.

With that said, there are legal modalities that can accomplish similar things. They just require more work and/or money. Holotropic breathing is powerful stuff. My first impression of craniosacral therapy is that it could be a good alternative to psychedelic therapy.

[CuriousCharacter]

fyi: Magnesium does NOTHING for me.  I have tried Magtein (Magnesium-L-Theoronate) supposed to cross BBB effectively.

What was the dose? I never noticed the effects until I took 600mg of mag citrate at once.

[CuriousCharacter]

Magnesium-L-Theoronate does not supply very much elemental magnesium, so it's not useful for correcting deficiencies.

I suspect that I was magnesium deficient from years of ketogenic dieting and intermittent fasting. I always supplemented magnesium, but higher-dose magnesium seems to cause a huge improvement in my anxiety and muscular tension.

[Vandemolen]

If I want to strenghten my psoas do I have to see a chiropractor or an osteopath? I know there are video’s on Youtube. But my healthe insurrance pays a few treatments for ‘alternative medics’. So it’s better to see a professional.

Check this:

1999 Selected Abstracts from American Urological Association annual meeting.
©1999 James R. Noyes

I have suffered from chronic prostatitis and/or prostatodynia for six years. The symptoms of my particular case of CP have, at one time or another, included the following: Urethral pain, severe pain in the epididymis and testicle, post-ejaculate pain, post-urination pain, post-bowel-movement pain, "groin" pain, knee pain, "hip joint" pain, abdomen pain, and back pain. Pain was of the "burning" or "tingling" type as well as the "pulled muscle" type.

Other symptoms included a weakened urine stream, weakened erection, and weakened orgasm. Various treatments of these symptoms have, at one time or another, included the following: Massive doses of antibiotics, muscle-relaxants, antidepressants, painkillers, and hot baths. None of these "treatments" were effective in relieving my symptoms--not one! Does this sound all too familiar?

Standard treatments for CP are ineffective because they fail to address the root causes of CP. The root cause of my CP (and many other cases from what I've seen posted) appears to have nothing to do with the prostate itself, but everything to do with the muscles around the prostate and around the male sex organs. The muscle problems are more severe than can be helped with muscle-relaxants, however. The good news is there is a very effective treatment for this.

My hypothesis is that chronic prostatitis and/or prostatodynia   is caused by dysfunction of:

Iliopsoas muscle
Pectineus muscle
Muscles (and nerves) surrounding the above
My hypothesis is that chronic prostatitis and/or prostatodynia   is aggravated by:

Extended periods of sitting (especially driving)
Tight jeans/pants, tight belts, tight underwear
Sexual activity when the above muscles are dysfunctioning
Some evidence to support such a hypothesis is found below: The iliopsoas muscle   is known as a "hidden prankster" due to the fact that it "serves many critical functions, often causes pain   , and is relatively inaccessible." Referred pain occurs from the "thoracic region to the sacroiliac area, and sometimes to the upper buttock. Pain is referred similarly from the iliacus and often also to the anterior thigh and groin   ."

The iliopsoas muscleruns from the lower back down to the pelvis and borders, among other things, the ureter, spermatic vessels, genito-crural nerve, and the colon.

It appears likely, that if the iliopsoas muscle "often causes pain," these highly sensitive border areas could very well be affected. If this conjecture seems wholly improbable, consider what is known:

Ililpsoas minor syndrome is easily mistaken for appendicitis
Scrotal pain (epididymis, testicle, etc.) has been linked to the iliopsoas muscle
The iliopsoas muscle (a.k.a. the "hidden prankster") is a muscle that can cramp up from sitting (especially if the knees are above the waist). If you sit for long periods of time (at the computer, desk, driving, etc.) your iliopsoas muscle is in a constant state of contraction, which, over time, can lead to pain. Tight fitting pants exacerbate this situation tremendously. Since the iliopsoas muscle is also active while standing, running, and is "vigorously active through the last 60°ree; of a sit-up," these activities could also, if overdone, trigger pain.

The iliopsoas muscle can trigger the pectineus muscleas well. Persistent painfrom the pectineus muscle can occur from "tripping or falling on a staircase, may follow fracture of the femoral neck or a total hip replacement, or may occur in a situation that causes strong resistance to adduction of the thigh, such as sexual activity or gymnastic exercises."

To test this muscle dysfunction hypothesis on my own, I tried the following treatments:

Deep-tissue massage of the iliopsoas, pectineus, and surrounding muscles
Daily stretching of above muscles and tissues
Hot sauna therapy (also steam/whirlpool/bath therapy)
While my treatment is still ongoing, the great news is I'm feeling 90-95% recovered from what was once a rather debilitating, demoralizing, and depressing condition. It's taken nearly two years and the recovery is gradual-not overnight.

Presently, most days are symptom free! Since stretching on its own will show only limited results, sessions with an expert deep-tissue therapist are an absolute must! Look for:

NCTMB -- Nationally Certified in Theraputic Massage and Bodywork;
NMT -- Neuro Muscular Therapist; or
Any therapist trained in the "St. John Method" of Neruomuscular Therapy
For those of you looking for a "quick-fix," don’t expect any improvement without extreme diligence on your part–stretching (long, deep stretches which last 30 seconds to 10 minutes) must become a daily routine. One must be aware that, at times, the pain may worsen before it gets better (one step backward–two steps forward). These therapies have helped me immeasurably and it is my sincere hope, these therapies will be of help to those of you serious about finding relief from chronic prostatitis and/or prostatodynia.

A special thanks to my deep-tissue massage therapist, Deborah Bamford, NCTMB, for her knowledge, dedication, and unwavering support in my ongoing search for a life without chronic pain. 

Sources: Myofascial Pain and Dysfunction: The Trigger Point Manual, volumes 1 & 2, by Janet G. Travell, M.D. and David G. Simons, M.D., and Gray’s Anatomy, by Henry Gray, F.R.S. Send questions/comments to JNoyes2000@aol.com.
http://www.prostatitis.org/muscle.html

[Vandemolen]

My fysiotherapist checked my Psoas. She said it was ok.

[Qiao]

I'm a PT and Osteopath. I think this thread is spot on for a form of POIS that is caused by muscular tension, an autonomous nervous system (ANS)  that is somehow disregulated, and some sort of psychological trauma present.

Musculature of the pelvic floor, psoas and diaphragm have a tight anatomical connection. they also have a two-way relationship with the ANS. Our nervous system connects psychological trauma with tension in the body, and that changes movement patterns, which again influences tension and the nervous system and the psyche. Manual therapy can only help you so far (I think it definitely can help manage symptoms) but in the end, everyone has to do the work of redefining the relationship between your mind, your ANS and your body himself.  I think the ways to improve have mostly been mentioned here. Self-release of pelvic floor / psoas / diaphragm through stretches and self-trigger-point therapy. holotropic breathing. trauma-release exercises, meditation (I'm partial to heart coherence meditation and mahasi). psilocybin, either micro dosing or big ones (safer use and due diligence is not negotiable here). CBT, changing your relationship with other people. good cranio sacral therapy. feldenkrais. dancing. taijiquan. some forms of yoga.

You won't get something out of nothing. but if you start feeling effects, you'll understand that not doing this stuff is not an option. I am a POIS sufferer myself, it was never awfully bad, but always needed to be managed. It's a big part of why I got into my line of work. What really gave me the kick to seriously do the work that is needed (and not just fiddle about) was a bad, bad psilocybin trip, that made me understand some things and gave me the will to do what is needed to get better.