Xanthiol Nicotinate - Benefits, Risks and Function in POIS

[Ccconfucius]

CC, you mean that I should be careful as I increase doses, because the heart beats harder with higher doses?

exactly that.

[victor.kons]

Congratulations, Daveman!

The Niacin itself reduces tiredness for me too. I have now hard time with finding Niacin tablets, so I've switched back to XN injections for now. Currently I can find only Niacin tablets produced by VAT "Vitaminy", these tablets don't work for me, and I don't understand why. They are the same Niacin Acid tablets I used before, but they are just made by a different producer.

Victor

[Ccconfucius]

Congratulations, Daveman!

The Niacin itself reduces tiredness for me too. I have now hard time with finding Niacin tablets, so I've switched back to XN injections for now. Currently I can find only Niacin tablets produced by VAT "Vitaminy", these tablets don't work for me, and I don't understand why. They are the same Niacin Acid tablets I used before, but they are just made by a different producer.

Victor

that is the problem with vitamins you never sure if they are all potent.

[lauracostis]

I would like to ask the forum members who are using the normal flush niacin (nicotinic acid) to try an experiment by replacing it with 1000mg of the non-flushing niacinamide or nicotinamide (they are the same molecule).  Guthrie has been able to get excellent results with niacinamide and this would tell us if the flush is a pertinent factor in reducing POIS symptoms.  Since the flush does not happen if you use niacin(nicotinic acid) more than a couple times in a row, it is hard know if the absence of the flush is causing the POIS not to be reduced as much or if we have just built up a tolerance to niacin.  What I want to do will separate the flush and the tolerance to niacin into separate areas.  This is the important kind of testing that needs to be done if we want to cure POIS.  We have found a cheap and readily accessible, over the counter supplement that has great potential in finding answers into the etiology of POIS.  Niacinamide is relativly cheap, I bought a bottle for 8$, it should not cost more than 10-20 dollars to do this important experiment per person.  If we want a cure we need to know if it is the niacin itself that is doing somthing or only the side effect of flushing which is doing somthing. 

[victor.kons]

Congratulations, Daveman!

The Niacin itself reduces tiredness for me too. I have now hard time with finding Niacin tablets, so I've switched back to XN injections for now. Currently I can find only Niacin tablets produced by VAT "Vitaminy", these tablets don't work for me, and I don't understand why. They are the same Niacin Acid tablets I used before, but they are just made by a different producer.

Victor

that is the problem with vitamins you never sure if they are all potent.

Thats why I think people shouldn't stop trying Niacin after first failed attempt. It might perfectly be the case that they've got Niacin of insufficient quality and because of that there is no effect. My opinion is that at least 2 - 3 different Niacin suppliers need to be tested to draw the conclusion that Niacin is inefficient for POIS-er person.

Victor

[mellivora]

Thats why I think people shouldn't stop trying Niacin after first failed attempt. It might perfectly be the case that they've got Niacin of insufficient quality and because of that there is no effect. My opinion is that at least 2 - 3 different Niacin suppliers need to be tested to draw the conclusion that Niacin is inefficient for POIS-er person.

Victor

I've reported that Niacin didn't work for me when I tried it but that I'll be trying again. The fact that the Niacin gave me a strong flush leads me to believe that there isn't a quality issue with the Niacin. Nicotinic acid should be exactly that if that's what it says on the bottle. If there is significant variation in effectiveness between brands perhaps it is more likely due to the other constituents in the tablets (in the case of my tablets the ingredients are: Bulking agents (Dicalcium Phosphate, Microcrystalline cellulose), Niacin (as Nicotinic Acid), Anti-Caking agents (Stearic Acid, Silicon Dioxide, Magnesium Stearate), Sodium Carboxymethylcellulose, Glycerine, Sodium citrate. One could even hypothesise that its another ingredient present in some Niacin tablets but not others that is doing the job though that's not something I believe at the moment.

Of course I'm speculating but my guess would be that if Niacin hasn't worked for someone (as it didn't for me), it could be for many other reasons:

1. The person is already regularly getting enough Niacin from their diet (we have seen one or two cases on the forum  (eg. Jivetalk) where Nicotinic Acid taken regularly (eg. daily) has apparently reduced the effects of a dose later taken before orgasm. (Generally I do think my diet is very good).

2. The person might have a slightly different cause for his POIS that results in the same symptoms. If, for sake of argument,  the cause were say the lack of a certain hormone, the reason for that  might be a deficiency at a different point along the production chain of that hormone compared to other POIS sufferers but the end symptoms might be the same. (I'm not saying POIS is caused by insufficient quantities of a hormone - its just an illustration of how a subtly different cause could give the same symptoms but require a different treatment, eg an enzyme might be lacking instead of a precursor to the hormone).

3. The person might have a different 'version' of POIS altogether with a completely differerent cause. Variations in symptoms between sufferers have been reported since the forum began (eg. some don't have aches and mainly have cognitive symptoms whilst for others aches are a big problem)

4. There might have been something going on in the body of that person on the particular day /at the particular time that the Niacin was taken that means it wasn't effective on that occasion. Perhaps time of day in the context of that person's routine is important for some reason (as reported by Bitu).

As Victor said, it is important to try a promising potential remedy more than once before deciding it doesn't work for you..

[mellivora]

Out of interest:
The Niacin I tried is a UK brand: "Holland and Barrett Niacin 100mg". The ingredients are as listed in my previous post.

Has anyone for whom Niacin has worked used this brand? We may as well investigate all avenues so please list the brand you have been using and the full ingredients of the tablets (if listed on the bottle) here. Lets compile a list of the ones that have worked, just in case...

[Daveman]

Mine is from Nature's Way. It's a capsule, and it seems to have fewer ingredients, perhpas we might expect that a tablet would have more ingredients, to be able to form the tablet and maybe even effect a less rapid absorbtion.

Mine says it has:
Millet and Maltodextrin plus for the capsule,
Cellulose and Magnesium Steriate
Plus of course the niacin in the form of nicotinic acid

For me as indicated, VERY effective.

[Ccconfucius]

Mine is from Nature's Way. It's a capsule, and it seems to have fewer ingredients, perhpas we might expect that a tablet would have more ingredients, to be able to form the tablet and maybe even effect a less rapid absorbtion.

Mine says it has:
Millet and Maltodextrin plus for the capsule,
Cellulose and Magnesium Steriate
Plus of course the niacin in the form of nicotinic acid

For me as indicated, VERY effective.

if you run out i can get you natures way from the US.  That is also the brand i use.

[Stef]

Daveman,

That's great news!!!

Nature's Way is a very good vitamin company.  It's got the United States Pharmacopoeia (USP) seal of approval on it. This means that it's undergone rigorous testing that verifies its quality, purity, and potency as an over-the-counter product.

The USP is a non-profit scientific organization.  There are many other vitamins and supplements that the USP tests and stamps its seal on (literally), and many of them are sold internationally. This is one way of checking the quality of the niacin that some of you are taking.  The other important thing to always check is the expiration date (can't emphasize this enough -- many people forget to check).

Here's a link for the United States Pharmacopoeia that you all may find helpful -- http://www.usp.org/USPVerified/dietarySupplements/.

Daveman, I'm really happy to hear your good news!!  That Russian physician who first mentioned niacin to victor.kons deserves a Nobel prize!
 

Mine is from Nature's Way. It's a capsule, and it seems to have fewer ingredients, perhpas we might expect that a tablet would have more ingredients, to be able to form the tablet and maybe even effect a less rapid absorbtion.

Mine says it has:
Millet and Maltodextrin plus for the capsule,
Cellulose and Magnesium Steriate
Plus of course the niacin in the form of nicotinic acid

For me as indicated, VERY effective.

[b_jim]

Good job Daveman. In next months, if it's an evidence that B3 is a positive way to reduce Pois, we should send a mail to dr Waldinger.

[mellivora]

Mine is from Nature's Way. It's a capsule, and it seems to have fewer ingredients, perhpas we might expect that a tablet would have more ingredients, to be able to form the tablet and maybe even effect a less rapid absorbtion.

Mine says it has:
Millet and Maltodextrin plus for the capsule,
Cellulose and Magnesium Steriate
Plus of course the niacin in the form of nicotinic acid

For me as indicated, VERY effective.

Thanks Daveman. Really happy for you that the first trial went so well. I have some Nature's Way Niacin capsules on order - I figured they'd be worth trying given that they don't cost much here. I've added you to the summary. I wasn't sure how long after taking the Niacin you orgasmed so haven't written that in specifically. If we get more feedback from people as to the brands they are using I'll add a post below the summary detailing these.

[mellivora]

That is also the brand i use.

Thanks CC. Could you outline your experiences with Niacin (or XN) a bit more. Sounds like it is working for you? At the moment the only entry I have for you in the summary is:

"CCCONFUCIUS
observed that the flush was “way worse” with 200mg Niacin than with 300mg Xanthinol nicotinate. Also noticed the Niacin “spiked” his heart rate."

It would be great to add your data to the others in the summary which you can read here:

http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=235.msg2958#msg2958

If you've already posted your experiences in more detail then sorry I must have missed it, just point me to the post, thanks.

[omen]

I hope users don't get dependent on niacin and xn.

[Daveman]

Mine is from Nature's Way. It's a capsule, and it seems to have fewer ingredients, perhpas we might expect that a tablet would have more ingredients, to be able to form the tablet and maybe even effect a less rapid absorbtion.

Mine says it has:
Millet and Maltodextrin plus for the capsule,
Cellulose and Magnesium Steriate
Plus of course the niacin in the form of nicotinic acid

For me as indicated, VERY effective.

Thanks Daveman. Really happy for you that the first trial went so well. I have some Nature's Way Niacin capsules on order - I figured they'd be worth trying given that they don't cost much here. I've added you to the summary. I wasn't sure how long after taking the Niacin you orgasmed so haven't written that in specifically. If we get more feedback from people as to the brands they are using I'll add a post below the summary detailing these.

It was something like 45 minutes after taking it. I "O"d based on coming clearly off the peak of the flush. Once the tingling and heat stopped and my heart rate was stable when walking around. SO it was, ingestion, then 20 min or so to start flushing, 15 min of flushing and another 10 or 15 to stabalize after end of flush.

[mellivora]

Good job Daveman. In next months, if it's an evidence that B3 is a positive way to reduce Pois, we should send a mail to dr Waldinger.

I agree b_jim. Infact we could probably do this sooner rather than later  to set his brain cogs whirring. I don't recall anything else on the forum that has been reported to be helping so many sufferers, even if thus far it hasn't worked for me.

I came across some research about the mechanisms of Niacin on the body. I have them saved somewhere and shall pass on when I have time to go through them again. I'm thinking of writing to the authors of such papers as it might be obvious to them how Niacin might short-circuit an autoimmune response or have other effects relevant to POIS.

We have all done research into various aspects of POIS from time to time. I wonder if we should have a section of the forum that is dedicated to listing potentially significant papers and webpages we have found. It could be titled "reference library" or "research library" and have a different thread within that for each topic under which page links and webpages are posted. This could be useful for us all and also to anyone wanting to research POIS. Could we do this Daveman? Oh! I'm sorry I've just seen we have such a thread already - my apologies. That's good. I do think somehow it needs a clearer structure though. One where there can be different topic threads and literally a list of references within each. Eg. of topics could be 'POIS papers' (under which we list all papers directly about POIS (all Waldingers, Goldmeier/Ashby etc)). Semen (papers about anything to do with semen and its constituents/allergies to it), Niacin (research about Niacin), Autoimmunity (general things to do with autoimmunity), Fenugreek (research into the effects of fenugreek) etc etc. We can have an initial list of topics and then add more as and when necessary. this will help organise our references better. At the moment I fear if lots of references are posted, there is a danger of losing them through lack of struture. For example we already have  3 different threads just for waldingers papers. They should all be under one thread of 'POIS papers' I think. I don't think this involves much work if we get the initial topics going, people will just post under the appropriate one each time. But let me know if you think otherwise Daveman since I guess the initial set up would have to be done by yourself. You've done a brilliant job setting up this forum, its been fantastic for us. (sorry if this post has strayed off-topic for this thread).

[Daveman]

Mellivora,

You could create some master threads there, maybe "Papers", "Videos" etc. etc. and I'll go in and make them "Sticky" so they are always on top, and later do some enditing and moving to put the existing threads into the master threads.

PM me when you've got your master threads created.

Thanks,
Daveman

[Observer]

Good job Daveman. In next months, if it's an evidence that B3 is a positive way to reduce Pois, we should send a mail to dr Waldinger.

I already did that, and i am hoping to meet him personally very soon. I will update on this issue.

[Ccconfucius]

That is also the brand i use.

Thanks CC. Could you outline your experiences with Niacin (or XN) a bit more. Sounds like it is working for you? At the moment the only entry I have for you in the summary is:

"CCCONFUCIUS
observed that the flush was “way worse” with 200mg Niacin than with 300mg Xanthinol nicotinate. Also noticed the Niacin “spiked” his heart rate."

It would be great to add your data to the others in the summary which you can read here:

http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=235.msg2958#msg2958

If you've already posted your experiences in more detail then sorry I must have missed it, just point me to the post, thanks.

i dont have data on niacin helping i rarely get fully heal. I only used niacin to keep me from being worse than am already. But it is hard to tell if it helps if am not 100%.

[Daveman]

Strange, I've only had one try, and it was VERY successful, almost 95% reduction. Don;t know if I have a good brand, or it's just me.

Let's just hope that it's repeatable!

I'm in the field now working, but when I get home next week, you can be sure it will get another couple of good shots!!