Author Topic: Testosterone  (Read 234852 times)

demografx

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #180 on: June 09, 2016, 02:12:31 AM »


Successfully renewed today: $90 with insurance ($1,440 without)...3 months' Rx.

*****PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I AM NOT PROMOTING TESTOSTERONE FOR POIS.

NO RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE.

I'M JUST SHARING MY PARTICULAR EXPERIENCE ON THIS THREAD.*****


Best wishes to everyone for finding YOUR particular POIS treatment!


« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 02:17:16 AM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

b_jim

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2016, 03:42:55 PM »
I'm thinking to a new idea :
Testosterone-Prolactine-Gaba.

I think testosterone might regulate prolactine (supposed to fluctuate after orgasm).
And then it might influence Gaba.

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demografx

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #182 on: July 12, 2016, 09:55:45 PM »

Now, I think more and more Testosterone is not the culprit of Pois symptoms but a major factor because of its link with dopamine.


b_jim, this is from an older post. If you still think so, it would be interesting to know more about your thinking or explanation of dopamine & testosterone?
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

b_jim

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #183 on: July 14, 2016, 11:24:43 AM »
b_jim,

I think it is more likely that high testosterone suppresses the immune system.

This has been discussed few times earlier in this forum...
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2168.msg17433#msg17433

The strong immune reaction post ejaculation could be inhibited by testosterone
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2013/12/in-men-high-testosterone-can-mean-weakened-immune-response-study-finds.html

Scientific papers:
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/george-whipple-lab/documents/chang-papers/cv076.pdf
http://www.rug.nl/research/pathology/medbiol/pdf/sexhormones.pdf

But it is a mystery why the immune reaction occurs in POISERs...there have been posts by Quantum and others in this forum about how the cytokines released during the reaction would have an impact on our brain. Maybe the brain tries to dampen the immune reaction by activating the parasympathetic nerves (of which the vagus nerve is the primary nerve).

Thanks for the documents. Anyway, we have nothing to prove it's an immune reaction. Maybe, maybe not.
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b_jim

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #184 on: July 14, 2016, 11:30:16 AM »

Now, I think more and more Testosterone is not the culprit of Pois symptoms but a major factor because of its link with dopamine.


b_jim, this is from an older post. If you still think so, it would be interesting to know more about your thinking or explanation of dopamine & testosterone?

I think we can find scientific links on the web but basicaly the male "alpha" (dominant) has the highest testosterone (strenght) and the highest dopamine (Character structure).

It's a general view. But you can find some direct link between male sexuality, testosterone and nervous system transmission and dopamine.
We know dopamine/serotonine are linked to male sexual activity (erection and ejaculation).
Some animal studies show the sexual activity of male is influenced by dopamine quantity in some brain aeras and this level is regulated by testosterone/NO.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 07:17:02 AM by b_jim »
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demografx

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #185 on: July 14, 2016, 09:31:32 PM »

Thank you, b_jim
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

joelawerence

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #186 on: August 05, 2016, 07:57:48 AM »
Hi Demo, for my benefit and others on this forum it would be great if you can provide an overview of what your POIS symptoms were and post TRT which of them have decreased the most (percentage wise)

I have been tested for low testosterone twice now: first time was 3.0 in the evening and second time 5.6 early in morning (normal range 7.6 to 30.0). Both times it was Day 2 of POIS. My main symptoms are physical, I feel extremely fatigued when in POIS and mildly fatigued when not in POIS. I will explain my symptoms and what has worked and not worked as treatments in detail here for the benefits of others:

Symptoms:
1. Extreme fatigue, full body pain (especially back pain) and no strength in legs. I get easily tired just doing some simple chores
2. Extreme hair loss and now bald - My POIS symptoms and hair loss started almost at the same time when I was around 21 years old. I believe this is due to all my testosterone getting converted to DHT
3. Sleep a lot : I require atleast 9 to 10 hours of sleep and even after that I don?t feel refreshed. Just that I don?t get to sleep more than 8 hours due to my work
4. High internal body temperature: In POIS my body feels hot to the touch and internally also I feel very warm and cannot tolerate cold water on my body at all
Pressure behind the eyes
5. Cognitive symptoms : Feel low and depressed most of the time, hard to concentrate, no zest for life, etc.
6. Very dry skin and oily scalp : I can literally pat tissue on my scalp and forehead to see oil in just a few hours after shampooing. I believe this is also to do with high DHT. My skin especially face is very dry and moisturisers are not enough, I get flaky skin from parts of my face especially around nose despite daily applying good moisturisers

What has worked for me so far:
1. Heavy physical activity - The only time I have felt like 70 to 80% without POIS was when I was regularly playing cricket with friends. I used to play for like hours during weekends and funnily enough the more I played it seemed my POIS improved even more. Although I find exercising very difficult when in POIS but once the vicious cycle is broken heavy physical activity was the only thing that helped me
2. Alcohol: I occasionally drink alcohol and it removes my symptoms to 90% temporarily. Although I dont advice this for others due to the obvious other effects of alcohol

What hasnt worked for me:
Tried Nicain treatment as per this form, tried Fenugreek+Garlic, Probiotics at different points but they have not even been mildly effective for me

What I am doing now:
Nothing, still in POIS trying hard to try and hit the treadmill but not having the motivation or the strength to do it regularly. Coming back from work the only thought that runs in my mind is to lie on my sofa and watch TV or browse the net and social skills outside of my immediate family has become almost zero. I am not able to even play much with my 3 year old kid. I muster the strength somehow to play with him and engage with my wife and take them out some of the weekends but still the excitement factor in life is just not there because of the depressed mind and constant pain in my body.

What I am planning to do next:
I had thought of exercising regularly but have to get myself motivated and get my body prepared for that. We are planning to have another kid in a year or two time and that would be our last kid, so immediately after that I am planning to start on TRT as I am sure I will benefit from it. Till then the only thing that could help me is exercise.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 08:01:04 AM by joelawerence »
33 years old, POIS for around 12 years with increasing severity.
Major symptoms - Severe fatigue, back pain, unrefreshed even after 9+ hours sleep, pain behind eyes, very dry face, bald head with inflamed scalp, digestion issues and constipation. Very low testosterone and high glucose in blood tests

Quantum

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #187 on: August 05, 2016, 10:04:20 AM »
Thanks alot, joelawerence, great post, with useful details.  Would you mind if I copy it in the Personal Pois Summaries thread ?

I am sure Demo will answer you.  I would be interested to hear if he, also, had no success with niacin.



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demografx

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #188 on: August 13, 2016, 12:31:26 AM »

I feel like I told my TRT story so much people are sick of hearing about it! ;D

I was briefly prescribed niacin, but it seemed to have no effect.

My overwhelmingly strongest POIS symptom was extreme debilitating fatigue -- mental, emotional, physical.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

joelawerence

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #189 on: August 16, 2016, 09:01:30 AM »

I feel like I told my TRT story so much people are sick of hearing about it! ;D

I was briefly prescribed niacin, but it seemed to have no effect.

My overwhelmingly strongest POIS symptom was extreme debilitating fatigue -- mental, emotional, physical.

Interesting that Niacin had no effect for you as well.

How much of the fatigue is reduced now - like 80% or so?

Can you post me some links of your cure story, would be very helpful for me :)
33 years old, POIS for around 12 years with increasing severity.
Major symptoms - Severe fatigue, back pain, unrefreshed even after 9+ hours sleep, pain behind eyes, very dry face, bald head with inflamed scalp, digestion issues and constipation. Very low testosterone and high glucose in blood tests

demografx

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #190 on: August 16, 2016, 10:46:31 AM »
joelawerence, I think if you flip through this Testosterone thread you will see much of my story. Otherwise I wouldn't know where else to refer you, I made 10,000 posts between here and TNS-POIS (thenakedscientists.com) !...explaining my story over 10 years of posting :)

Fatigue reduction is about what you said: approx 80% (depending on other factors, it's sometimes 100%...or only 50%)


« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 09:32:01 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #191 on: November 09, 2016, 12:26:31 PM »


Cross-posted from "Familiar Place"


Quantum, do you think that the auto-immune theory is compatible with my effective personal choice of TRT treatment?

Yes, absolutely, because "testosterone deficiency has been linked with autoimmune disease and an increase in inflammatory markers, such as C-reactive protein (CRP), tumor necrosis factor, and interleukin-6 (IL-6). " - see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27325124

A characteristic of auto-immune is that immune markers are higher than normal, meaning the immune system is too active, and so active that it starts to make "mistakes" on the choice of its target and react on antigen that are normal "self" antigen of your own body.  Normally, the immune system react only to non-self antigens from invading virus or bacteria, or to modified and abnormal self-antigens like when there is a cancerous mutation in one of your own cells.

So, if you have low testosterone and you raise testosterone back to normal levels through TRT, your pro-inflammatory cytokines markers like those mentioned above ( CRP, TNF-alpha, IL-6,...) will go down.  I think that this is what is happening with your TRT treatment.  Did you ever have those immune markers tested, before and after TRT ?

But there are other reasons than low testosterone causing higher than normal immune markers, so a POIS sufferer with already normal testosterone level will not be relieved by TRT - you have to find what is raising these pro-inflammatory markers, in each, specific case. That's part of the complexity of autoimmune diseases - and of POIS.


Auto-immune response comes from T-cells, not B-cells ( 2 different types of immune cells).  It is interesting to note that testosterone will lower T-cells much more than B-cells ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27465811 , see in the "Discussion section").  It's in line with TRT being beneficial for the control of autoimmune disorders.

TRT is a relatively non-toxic way to lower autoimmunity.  Many drugs, called immunosuppressants, used for the treatment of autoimmune diseases are far more toxic than that.  Oral corticosteroids, like prednisone or dexamethasone, are often used in order to control flares in autoimmune diseases, because they lower the immunity, and are a form of immunosuppressants ( I recently read on the NSF forum a case of POIS relief with dexamethasone, as a matter of fact).

There are many unknowns about autoimmune diseases, but much research is done in this field today, so we will likely benefit from this.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

demografx

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #192 on: November 09, 2016, 06:59:53 PM »
Fascinating, Quantum!

But then again, perhaps I have just a wee bit of a bias with TRT?
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

joelawerence

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #193 on: December 01, 2016, 06:47:16 AM »
I have been taking Vitamin D for the last few weeks on the advice of my GP. Initially I took it without any hope but it seems to be helping a bit with the physical symptoms and reduction in peak POIS time. I am taking 20,000 UI Vitamin D3 twice a week. It has decreased by extreme fatigue by about 40% or so and my peak POIS period seems to reduce from 7 days to about 4 days or so. Doesn?t seem to have much impact on improving cognitive symptoms though.

Having tried Niacin, fenugreek, curcumin, Garlic, etc. this this the only thing that has improved my symptoms somewhat. My theory is that I may be low in Vitamin D as well as I am dark skinned and living in the UK means that my body is able to generate very little Vitamin D on it?s own. Also in some studies it has been found to increase testosterone in those who are deficient, would be interesting if that is the case. I will keep taking it to see if it is a placebo or not. Anyone else had any benefits from taking Vitamin D supplements?
33 years old, POIS for around 12 years with increasing severity.
Major symptoms - Severe fatigue, back pain, unrefreshed even after 9+ hours sleep, pain behind eyes, very dry face, bald head with inflamed scalp, digestion issues and constipation. Very low testosterone and high glucose in blood tests

b_jim

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #194 on: December 01, 2016, 04:01:06 PM »
I have taken 2000 UI without any real improvement.
But this summer I spend all my time behind the sun.  Does it help ? Dunno.
Look this testimony :
http://www.vitamindwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page_id=1723

Clearly vitamin D is another candidate to cure Pois.
-
For now my Pois symptoms are very reduced. I can even eat sugar. I don't know why.
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trusttheprocess

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #195 on: December 01, 2016, 05:07:00 PM »
Hey joelawerence, I'm in a similar situation to you in that most supplements do not have much affect on my POIS, but vitamin D has helped me considerably.  I started on the vitamin D because I found out from 23andme that I had a mutation in my vitamin d receptor, and since then my immune system, fatigue and length of POIS have all improved quite a bit.  I suspect this is due to the fact that vitamin D is a steroid, immunosuppressive, helps promote regulatory T cells, and because I was probably deficient in Vitamin D like the majority of people and probably an even larger majority of people with POIS.
Low levels of vitamin D have been implicated in a large number of autoimmune diseases, and although there is debate to whether it causes autoimmune diseases or if low levels are a result of autoimmune diseases, I think it will help with POIS.

From http://www.amymyersmd.com/2016/06/vitamin-d/

One study found that insufficient levels of Vitamin D have been reported in 36% of healthy adolescents and 57% of adults in the U.S. Other studies estimate that one billion people worldwide have insufficient Vitamin D levels. However, the rate of true Vitamin D deficiency is likely even higher, because new research indicates that the previous recommended levels of Vitamin D were actually too low.

...

Autoimmune diseases arise when your immune system is confused or overly stressed and begins attacking your own tissues instead of outside pathogens. Vitamin D prevents this by promoting regulatory T cells, which are responsible for accurately differentiating between outside invaders and ?self? cells. When active Vitamin D promotes them, it essentially makes your immune system smarter, teaching it to not attack itself and preventing the development of an autoimmune disease.

Research in this area is relatively recent, but there are a number of studies demonstrating higher rates of autoimmune disease, as well as a greater rate of autoimmune disease progression, among people with Vitamin D deficiency. Studies have linked Vitamin D deficiency with Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus, Rheumatoid Arthritis, and Type I Diabetes.

certainlypois2

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #196 on: December 01, 2016, 10:54:21 PM »
my response to vitamin D is similar to, i do wish it also helps cognitive symptoms.

Quantum

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #197 on: December 02, 2016, 11:10:44 AM »
Hey joelawerence, I'm in a similar situation to you in that most supplements do not have much affect on my POIS, but vitamin D has helped me considerably.  I started on the vitamin D because I found out from 23andme that I had a mutation in my vitamin d receptor, and since then my immune system, fatigue and length of POIS have all improved quite a bit.  I suspect this is due to the fact that vitamin D is a steroid, immunosuppressive, helps promote regulatory T cells, and because I was probably deficient in Vitamin D like the majority of people and probably an even larger majority of people with POIS.
Low levels of vitamin D have been implicated in a large number of autoimmune diseases, and although there is debate to whether it causes autoimmune diseases or if low levels are a result of autoimmune diseases, I think it will help with POIS.

From http://www.amymyersmd.com/2016/06/vitamin-d/

One study found that insufficient levels of Vitamin D have been reported in 36% of healthy adolescents and 57% of adults in the U.S. Other studies estimate that one billion people worldwide have insufficient Vitamin D levels. However, the rate of true Vitamin D deficiency is likely even higher, because new research indicates that the previous recommended levels of Vitamin D were actually too low.

...

Autoimmune diseases arise when your immune system is confused or overly stressed and begins attacking your own tissues instead of outside pathogens. Vitamin D prevents this by promoting regulatory T cells, which are responsible for accurately differentiating between outside invaders and ?self? cells. When active Vitamin D promotes them, it essentially makes your immune system smarter, teaching it to not attack itself and preventing the development of an autoimmune disease.

Research in this area is relatively recent, but there are a number of studies demonstrating higher rates of autoimmune disease, as well as a greater rate of autoimmune disease progression, among people with Vitamin D deficiency. Studies have linked Vitamin D deficiency with Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus, Rheumatoid Arthritis, and Type I Diabetes.


Great posts, TTP, joelawerence, et al.,  I think you should start a "Vitamin D" thread  ( since this thread is titled Testosterone).

I live quite up north  ( in Canada), and the winter are long here.  I take 1000ui Vit D daily, from november to spring.  currently, here, the sun is not up till 7h15  and already down at 15h50, so days are very short, and Vit D is fomred by sunlight on the skin..... and we are already in the snow, so I will not go out in shorts and t-shirt for the 5 next months !

« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 11:16:10 AM by Quantum »
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b_jim

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #198 on: December 06, 2016, 03:44:13 PM »
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23392896

I have stopped taurine during 1 month and I feel the fatigue came back.
I had several ejaculation and my energy was not good at work.
Taurine seems to increase testosterone :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23392896
Taurine = Anti-Pois
Suffering from lyme disease

demografx

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Re: Testosterone
« Reply #199 on: February 19, 2017, 07:24:11 PM »
"Testosterone therapy, which is used by millions of men, can lead to serious heart-related side effects, including heart attacks. ... One of the most serious is an increased risk of heart attack. A number of studies link testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) to an increased risk of cardiovascular problems."

From drugwatch, December 9, 2015

I'm posting this for myself as well as for anyone else interested in TRT.
I've already started to reduce my dosage.
Significantly!
Demo
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 04:33:23 PM by demografx »
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business