Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (P.O.I.S.)
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LAPOISSE
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« #30 : November 10, 2012, 12:24:55 PM »

just got my blood test result :

I will just write what came wrong :

17 beta estradiol

40,4 pmol/l               normal range for men             99-393

Testosterone

2,66ng/mL                                        normal range                         2,49-8,36

Biodisponible Testosterone

0,57 ng/mL               normal range for men 20-35yo    1 - 3,70


I've done the test in O+2 day...I was definitly in POIS

Basicly I had this day the free testosterone of a 70 yo person (I'm 28)

The thing is I dont have problem of erection or any of the hypogonadism symptoms

I need to have other testings but I think we definitly need to investigate the testosterone role in POIS ; I talked with my endocrino about mess up with spermatogenesis and he was clearly interested.
demografx
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« #31 : November 10, 2012, 04:32:03 PM »

TRT was the answer in my case. Congrats on testing.

10 years of major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.
Vincent M
Sr. Member
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: 477

Physical overshadows cognitive symptoms. 10yrs.


« #32 : November 10, 2012, 05:09:47 PM »

That's interesting to me that you don't have erection difficulty or low libido and yet your testosterone tested so low cuz I've always thought that my testosterone was high due to my high libido, but recently I've thought that my libido might just seem high because of the irritation and inflammation that POIS causes in my sexual organs.

Taking ginger tea, no wheat, fenugreek+green tea/garlic, saw palmetto, niacin, boswellia, huperzine, B complex and nutmeg. See my treatment summary post for more info: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=81.msg3513#msg3513
kurtosis
Sr. Member
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: 369

Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type


« #33 : November 10, 2012, 05:23:18 PM »

Here's a short theory of POIS.

1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
8) Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.

Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.
Observer
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« #34 : November 10, 2012, 06:58:48 PM »

Here's a short theory of POIS.

(...)

Amazing kurtosis. I can only say that I am going to try to understand and study your theory, thank you for all the effort you are dedicating to the issue.
kurtosis
Sr. Member
****
: 369

Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type


« #35 : November 10, 2012, 07:06:23 PM »

7) should read "high levels of histamine"

8) should be 8 )
LAPOISSE
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: 202


« #36 : November 11, 2012, 04:45:30 AM »

Hi all,

Things are mooving quicker than usually...It's very exciting...There is two new case of "feeling recovered" in the NSF forum...I dont' know how to take thoose and how it could help all of us...

The Coreman description is interesting to me ; I know for long time i'm high prolactine(nerver could explain that).

I think we really need to go in some methodic scientific research to definitly verify the numerous hypothesis we have.

Have a good sunday
LAPOISSE
Full Member
***
: 202


« #37 : November 11, 2012, 07:53:16 AM »

Here's a short theory of POIS.

1) A genetic defect in a methylation gene causes an inefficient homocysteine to methionine cycle.
2) Depending on the level of inefficiency, the sufferer will be fine until they encounter puberty or become older and suffer from some illness which taxes the immune system.
3) Up until the point of the first POIS O the sufferer may feel a bit tired or less active than usual but the first POIS O will come as a shock as it's the first time the body has to dispose of a substantial amount of histamine that it's impaired methylation simply cannot handle.
4) Once POIS starts, the sufferer has high levels of histamine that are not being effectively deactivated (increasing their libido and frequency of ejaculation) and impairments in the production of other neurotransmitters (making them slow down and feel depressed).
5) the High-histamine state requires the body to produce more cortisol to control inflammation. The sufferer has allergies etc. and wonders what the problem is but over time they're body becomes weaker.
6) The cortisol produced in (5) steals the raw ingredients for other hormones (including testosterone), producing symptoms of hypogonadism despite no obvious testicular malfunction or adrenal tumour. It's possible that persistent adrenal fatigue may increase the natural wear + tear on the cells of the pituitary gland which may lead to tumours but that's a side issue.
7) The body also produces adrenaline to cope with high levels of cortisol. Again, this contributes to mental and physical burnout. The POIS sufferer now has chronic adrenal fatigue and may feel "wiped out", being unable to deal with even normal stresses in every day life.
8) Both the reduced methylation and cortisol steal in the previous points, reduces the production of neurotransmitters. The brain also has too high a histamine load and a negative feedback loop is created such that the brain runs in a suboptimal state with too high levels of histamine and too low levels of serotonin. This leads to persistent feelings of anxiety, even when the sufferer believes they are not in POIS. Indeed, over time it becomes more difficult for the POIS sufferer to figure out when they are in in POIS or out of it. The state of weakness, fatigue and confusion becomes more persistent.
9 ) The POIS sufferer never recovers their former state of wellbeing with adequate histamine clearance and adequate methylation of neurotransmitters UNLESS they manage to kick start their methylation cycle.

Thanks to cheap DNA testing we can actually find out if we have polymorphisms (basically mutations) of our methylation genes. My guess is that we all have methylation issues. They may not be the same issue but they're similar enough to produce a major problem when we process histamine. The inability to clear histamine quickly and the high levels we experience daily would lead to the symptoms of POIS but they would be a result of other issues.

Although I have no knowledges to understand all that, it seems very logical.

However, I think a lot of sufferer here did'nt experienced allergie problems ; If we all have high level of histamine, everybody should be allergic with physical signs ; Some other could have allergies AND POIS wich are not obligatory related ; There is some people here are allergic to gluten and the symptoms are clearly similar to POIS especialy for the cognitive one ; So , what symtoms are caused by the allergie/food intolerence itself ?Or by POIS? Is it the same thing ?(then why about 40% of POIS sufferer declare not being allergic person according to the poll)
Moreover it's very difficult to find any serious paper wich make a relation between high histamine and the cognitive probleme we have.

I still think it's one the best theory we have about POIS, but I'm just concerned about the fact that it doesn't apply for everybody.
kurtosis
Sr. Member
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: 369

Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type


« #38 : November 11, 2012, 09:17:30 AM »

We have no idea if we're all suffering from the same thing. I operate on the assumption that we're not.
Orgasms involve histamine release. A "flu like" reaction to an orgasm seems by definition to be like an allergy. However, people's ability to identify or diagnose their own problems may be different. Some people think they may have POIS a lot faster than others. Education, medical understanding, the age of the sufferer and progression of the illness etc. all play a part.
The polls have appallingly low numbers of people voting in them. We cannot base anything useful on them. I've given up creating them to be honest as we're supposed to have a few hundred members here but we get between 10 and 20 people voting in polls.

Why are some papers serious and others are not? I have worked as a scientist for many years and I can tell you that much of what's deemed serious at any particular time is fashion. The very fact that major drug companies are researching H3 antagonists to treat cognitive problems tells you there's a connection. What other standard of proof is required?
kurtosis
Sr. Member
****
: 369

Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type


« #39 : November 11, 2012, 09:52:33 AM »

If someone doesn't have symptoms of any of: fatigue, nausea, dizziness, headache, stomach ache, rashes, itches etc. when they have an O, then they don't have POIS. What other symptoms could they possibly have? A mild sense of dissatisfaction? :)

I'm not trying to be rude about this and I hope it doesn't seem that way but my interest is in the connection with my symptoms and those of the majority of the people that I'm dealing with, especially people like B_Daniel who are helpful enough to send me their results.

The forum is full of people saying taking X, Y or Z didn't do much for them and some people saying that the same X, Y or Z worked in some capacity. All I can say is what works for me. The same thing that works for me now seems to be working for B_Daniel. That's good.

Having dealt with medical professionals, both generalists and specialists, for 20 years trying to overcome this illness I don't really care what medical professionals think is authoritative information or not. Relatively cheap genetic testing means that genetic mutations and problems are beginning to be identified more easily and the blunt instrument that is much of medical diagnostics will be overshadowed by better doctoring and better cures.

There are millions of people with mysterious illnesses that are not being cured by their doctors. So we have a few possibilities
1) They are all nuts - it's all in their heads
2) They have real physiological problems that their doctors have no idea how to treat.

If 1 is correct then it's just as likely POIS is all in our heads. So we shut down this website and go back to our psychiatrists admitting we were wrong & they knew best :)
 
If 2 is correct then we should adopt some skepticism with our doctors and insist they adopt some humility with us.  I have learnt over many years that unless a doctor has a constructive suggestion for how to deal with POIS, I don't bother to convince them it's real. I spent 10 years a lot of money trying to convince people who were very egotistical that just because they didn't understand POIS that it may still exist.
This year I spoke with a woman with Myaesthenia Gravis who was eventually treated after 8 years of misdiagnosis. She had a similarly dim view of medical infallibility.
We had both ended up paying huge bills for each hour we had spent trying to convince doctors of the validity of an illness they couldn't treat or would not acknowledge. 

Never again.
demografx
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« #40 : November 12, 2012, 12:06:29 AM »

Thank you, kurtosis, for sharing your in-depth thinking and views on POIS!

10 years of major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.
mperez
Newbie
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: 12


« #41 : November 15, 2012, 11:32:54 AM »


I am 55 years old and started with all the pois sintoms (5) years ago, I was diagnosed with low T and I am under testosterone replacement, I am using Androgel 1.62% everyday but this isn't helping, it looks like it is worst becasue during sleep I have noctural emissions every night and the next day I feel all the POIS sintoms, extremely fatigue, sinus, itchy body, irritated eyes, sleeppy all the time, dificult to concentrate, muscles ache, eye burning, dificult to talk, etc, etc,.. my T levels are ok now and I tought that this was going to be the solution to the pois sintoms becasue is something I didn't have it in the past, few days ago I had an orgasm without eyaculation by using the Tantric thecniques but pois was even 2 or 3 times worst, I read that it is possible to have an orgasm without eyaculation at all, not even retrograde eyaculation does anybody knows if this is possible? I am trying whatever I read or learn to solve the problem but so far no solution, for now I am using the testosterone evryother day to reduce the nocturnal emmisions, does anybody think that testosterone in patches is better than androgel? Thanks, Mario
LAPOISSE
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« #42 : March 01, 2013, 06:24:34 AM »

Hi all,

I had my testo rechecked : i'm 6,80 ug/l so i'm just in the range for my age - I was 2,66 ug/l 6 month before

What it interesting is the bio available testosterone : i'm 0,90 ng/ml(was 0,57 last test) wich is pretty low by just considering it and very abnormal by comparating it to total testo ; I'm 1,4% and should be 4% at least

First time it was a risk of false result, 2nd time I guess there is something real.

So I guess, there is either a problem of over utilisation of testosterone what leave a few free or probleme for release testoterone and make it avalaible for the body

Do you guys have tested your Bio available testoterone checked ? It can be tricky to just test the total testosterone wich in my case this time is normal
« : March 01, 2013, 06:31:15 AM LAPOISSE »
demografx
Administrator
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: 4330



« #43 : March 01, 2013, 10:37:58 AM »


I am 55 years old and started with all the pois sintoms (5) years ago, I was diagnosed with low T and I am under testosterone replacement, I am using Androgel 1.62% everyday but this isn't helping, it looks like it is worst becasue during sleep I have noctural emissions every night and the next day I feel all the POIS sintoms, extremely fatigue, sinus, itchy body, irritated eyes, sleeppy all the time, dificult to concentrate, muscles ache, eye burning, dificult to talk, etc, etc,.. my T levels are ok now and I tought that this was going to be the solution to the pois sintoms becasue is something I didn't have it in the past, few days ago I had an orgasm without eyaculation by using the Tantric thecniques but pois was even 2 or 3 times worst, I read that it is possible to have an orgasm without eyaculation at all, not even retrograde eyaculation does anybody knows if this is possible? I am trying whatever I read or learn to solve the problem but so far no solution, for now I am using the testosterone evryother day to reduce the nocturnal emmisions, does anybody think that testosterone in patches is better than androgel? Thanks, Mario

I apply 8mg a day of testosterone patches, every day for POIS. My endocrinologist thinks gel can be equally effective.

10 years of major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.
Ccconfucius
Guest


« #44 : March 01, 2013, 06:37:07 PM »

Hi all,

I had my testo rechecked : i'm 6,80 ug/l so i'm just in the range for my age - I was 2,66 ug/l 6 month before

What it interesting is the bio available testosterone : i'm 0,90 ng/ml(was 0,57 last test) wich is pretty low by just considering it and very abnormal by comparating it to total testo ; I'm 1,4% and should be 4% at least

First time it was a risk of false result, 2nd time I guess there is something real.

So I guess, there is either a problem of over utilisation of testosterone what leave a few free or probleme for release testoterone and make it avalaible for the body

Do you guys have tested your Bio available testoterone checked ? It can be tricky to just test the total testosterone wich in my case this time is normal

tested total, bioavailable and free multiple times.  They were always in range but either towards the middle or lower side.
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