Author Topic: Slow heart beat  (Read 8664 times)

superfrancais

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Slow heart beat
« on: December 09, 2014, 05:20:39 AM »
I hate adding noise to the already large amount of esoteric treatements and explanations about our disease but there is probably no other way to tackle the problem right now. So here is my first personal contribution to making things more obscure :-)

I just read the wikipedia page about the vagus nerve that Dr Komisaruk is being investigating in pois sufferers (if I am not wrong). The article says the vagus nerve has an effect on the heart beat through the neurotransmitter called acetylcholine.

It reminded me that I have a low heart rate (around 50/min, close to 40/min when I am completely relaxed at bed) whereas I am not a at all someone good at running marathons.

My simple question : do other pois sufferers have a slow heart beat?
20 years of both mental and physical symptoms after love, chronic fatigue and depression even with abstinence, French (Lyon)

Outsider

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 121
Re: Slow heart beat
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 03:39:39 PM »
I hate adding noise to the already large amount of esoteric treatements and explanations about our disease but there is probably no other way to tackle the problem right now. So here is my first personal contribution to making things more obscure :-)

I just read the wikipedia page about the vagus nerve that Dr Komisaruk is being investigating in pois sufferers (if I am not wrong). The article says the vagus nerve has an effect on the heart beat through the neurotransmitter called acetylcholine.

It reminded me that I have a low heart rate (around 50/min, close to 40/min when I am completely relaxed at bed) whereas I am not a at all someone good at running marathons.

My simple question : do other pois sufferers have a slow heart beat?


Hi superfrench
no for me but i have some heart's pain since i m child
and nothing is wrong for the doctors
they told me it s stress ....... Always the same bullshit answers
Tu es de quel coin de france ?
Et tu as quel age ?
36 years old, very strong physical symptoms past my 33 years,
symp psycho, neuro and physical

Nico

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Slow heart beat
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2014, 07:24:01 PM »
I also usually have a slow heart beat. Who knows...

Nightingale

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Slow heart beat
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2014, 09:42:58 PM »
I hate adding noise to the already large amount of esoteric treatements and explanations about our disease but there is probably no other way to tackle the problem right now. So here is my first personal contribution to making things more obscure :-)

I just read the wikipedia page about the vagus nerve that Dr Komisaruk is being investigating in pois sufferers (if I am not wrong). The article says the vagus nerve has an effect on the heart beat through the neurotransmitter called acetylcholine.

It reminded me that I have a low heart rate (around 50/min, close to 40/min when I am completely relaxed at bed) whereas I am not a at all someone good at running marathons.

My simple question : do other pois sufferers have a slow heart beat?

YES.

I have noticed this for a long time, and have recently been working with doctors and my local university to uncover more of this.  I have had heart rates as low as yours, and my max heart rate is well below average for my age (~165) This is very frustrating, since I really love sports and I feel like I am limited in my ability because of my sluggish heart rate.

I have had sports scientists measure my max HR and my VO2 max, and now I am working with a very smart sports medicine doctor to dig deeper into it.

Very interesting. It adds to the nerve dystonia theory in my opinion.
Turmeric and Rosemary 30-45 minutes before orgasm for anti-inflammatory and immune support has helped me a lot. Faster and easier than niacin approach.

Quantum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1459
Re: Slow heart beat
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2014, 01:28:57 AM »
Hi superfran?ais and everyone,

I, too, have a very high vagal tone, which means that the parasympathetic part of our autonomous nervous system is very strong.  It causes many things in the human body, like a slow heartbeat.  The other symptoms of a high vagal tone that you should relate to are :  easily dizzy or nauseous when head spins, tendency to diarrhea, and rarely constipated, excess nasal and sinus secretions, hypotension, gastric acidity and disconfort, ....

So, this is not obscure at all.  And this condition of a slow heartbeat at rest is not an illness, it is called sinus bradychardia. If you want to confirm that this is indeed what you have, the decisive diagnostic needs having en ECG done by your doctor. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinus_bradycardia for a compete explanation.  It is not pathologic, and it is not related, in my opinion, to the core of what causes POIS. It looks to me rather as a comorbodity factor - a condition that worsen some of POIS symptoms.  Some POISers don't have a strong vagal tone, and they will be less affected by symptoms like fatigue and hypotension, which are affecting me so, so much because of my hyper-cholinergic metabolism.

I would not be surprised that you also have respiratory sinus arrythmia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinus_bradycardia ), a condition that I also have.  It simply means that your heartbeat tends to accelerate on the in-breath, and to slowdown on the outbreath.  Nothing to worry about, and it may be in fact a positive sign, depending of your point of view.

Anyway, all this is overridden, at least for a moment , when the presence of an attractive person near you, or, less romantic, some exercise, puts you on adrenaline and raise your heartbeat frequency.... just like Prancer described :)

« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 01:41:31 AM by Quantum »
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Nightingale

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Slow heart beat
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2014, 03:20:54 PM »
I would also like to know how metabolism/energy production and use comes into play for both a lower than average heart rate as well as POIS. I think POIS has some connection with chronic fatigue syndrome, which many treat as an energy production and usage issue. This would be the next thing I have on my "wish list" for studies of POIS. I have found some "tricks" that make me feel more lively and improve my athletic performance, and they either involve well timed intake of fast absorbing carbohydrates or herbs that are thought to impede the formation of or catalyze fat (garcinia cambogia. An aside, I had a week of feeling full of energy on garcinia before I developed side effects from its serotonergic influence)

Could you speak more about your hyper-cholinergic metabolism Quantum? I have come across some talk of choline being a treatment for issues related to methylation.
Turmeric and Rosemary 30-45 minutes before orgasm for anti-inflammatory and immune support has helped me a lot. Faster and easier than niacin approach.

Quantum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1459
Re: Slow heart beat
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2014, 11:03:21 PM »
*******
I would also like to know how metabolism/energy production and use comes into play for both a lower than average heart rate as well as POIS. I think POIS has some connection with chronic fatigue syndrome, which many treat as an energy production and usage issue. This would be the next thing I have on my "wish list" for studies of POIS. I have found some "tricks" that make me feel more lively and improve my athletic performance, and they either involve well timed intake of fast absorbing carbohydrates or herbs that are thought to impede the formation of or catalyze fat (garcinia cambogia. An aside, I had a week of feeling full of energy on garcinia before I developed side effects from its serotonergic influence)

Could you speak more about your hyper-cholinergic metabolism Quantum? I have come across some talk of choline being a treatment for issues related to methylation.
*******

Hi Nightingale,

When i use the term "cholinergic", I means "Of, pertaining to, activated by, producing or having the same function as acetylcholine" ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cholinergic ).  In a broader sense, as acetylcholine is the main neurotransmitter used by the parasympathetic branch of the autonomous nervous system,  when something is called "cholinergic", it means that it goes in the direction of parasympathetic activity, like vagal tone  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagal_tone ), which could be as well be called parasympathetic tone. 

When I say that I have a "hyper-cholinergic" metabolism and neurological setting, that means that I have plenty - if not tons - of acetylcholine produced in my body and brain, and that my vagal nerve and parasympthetic system as a whole is easily geared up.  Too much parasympathetic effects translate in bodily manifestations like slow heart rhythm (bradychardia), low blood pressure, diarrhea or digestive spasms, gastric acidity, bronchochonstriction, lost of saliva production as well as nasal, sinusal ans intestinal mucous ( to the point that nutrient absorption can be impaired, too much mental processing ( OCD, control freak, binge of intellectual activities like reading, searching, writing, computing, video gaming, easy triggering of vertigo and neausea when head is moving/spinning, near fainting or lightheadness following intense exercise not uncommon as well.  I had that since birth, so not realted to POIS.  During all of my childhood, for example, i had non-stop sinusitis because of my hyper reactive mucosa, producing an astonishing quantity of mucous ( I with I knew then what I know now, I could have spear me countless antibiotics treatment.

Of course, there is a link between having too much parasympathetic tone and lacking physical energy.  Sports and exercise is about having a good sympathetic tone (adrenaline and cortisol are the big player on this team).  he sympathetic system is the other par of the autonomous system, and is the antagonist of the parasympathetic  (for those not familiar with this, let's say in a very simplified way that the sympathetic is the gas pedal, and that the parasympathetic is the break pedal).  Easy to say, I was very bad at sports when I was young, and would get out of breat very easily - always chosen last when teams where created in the schoolyard. But would have been the captain of any intellectual contest - nerds are very cholinergic, and do not have much adrenergic tone...hahaha....

Then enters POIS in that cholinergic landscape. Fatigue is certainly one of the hallmark symptoms of POIS, although it may be possible, according to my opinion of whah POIS is, that someone only has allergy and flu-like symptoms, and not having his brain affected (no cognitive and/or emotional symptoms, what I call cluster 3, niacin-related, and 4, serotonin related symtoms).  I don't know yet if each and every POISer has fatigue in his symptom list, I did not read the list of symptoms of every members, not yet, anyway...hehe... so I did not see yet all the possible POIS configurations. (BTW,  I remember having come across a thread with like twenty or so members sharing in details their POIS "case", if anyone knows where this thread is, please send me the link, i am not able to retrieve it at the moment).  Anyway, extreme fatigue, to the point that work capacity and social interactions are compromized, are fairly common POIS symptoms.

Now, for sure, I don't want to force anything on anybody, and I know there must have been so many theories about POIS - and so many disappointment as well.  So, for anybody reading what follows, take what fits for you, and let go of the rest.  To the best of my current knowledge, here is my hypothesis of what POIS is. POIS is.  POIS looks to me as a hypersensitivity reaction of type I and/or IV causing clusters of symptoms on their own (allergy,  and flu-like), but moreover, this inappropriate and massive production of pro-inflammatory immune messengers is also responsible for the upregulation of an enzyme (IDO), causing a major disturbance in tryptophan (Trp) metabolism, which result in the peripheral and/or central nervous system depletion of niacin and/or serotonin.  Other aggravating factors come in play as well, like impaired absorption in the guts ( IBS, SIBO, etc.. further limiting available Trp ), high vagal tone like discussed here (intensifying some POIS symptoms), low testosterone and/or progesterone levels (they both inhibits prostaglandins and refrain the over-reaction of the immune system), and some other co-morbidity as well, and other factors worsening POIS like aspartame intake  (like I said in antoher thread, I am in the process of collecting all of them aggracating factors in a chart).

Fatigue is a symptom of both lack of niacin and lack of serotonin in the brain.  Serous lack of serotonin n the brain leads to depression and extreme lack of motivation, so its pretty obvious you won't jump on the football field. LAck of niacin also cause fatigue.  High energy requirements (brain) or high turnover rate (gut, skin) organs are usually the most susceptible to niacin deficiency, so the disease called pellagra, a niacin deficiency, causes, among other things, an encephalopathy, menaing the brain stops to work properly.  You cannot have a brain fog, impaired coordination and lessened reflexes, and give a good performance on the track or in the court !   So, then, imagine someone having both of niacin and serotonin lows at the same time, and I bet your coach will bench you after 5 mins for the rest of the game, if he let you play at all !

If, on top of that, you have a tendency for a strong vagal tone, hypotension and cold sweat, slow heartbeat, vasodilatation, everything in your system is gonna make it so hard to exercise, and in POIS days, it would be harder still, becaue of additive effects.  And, as I am becoming aware in the last 3 weeks, it seems that, in least in my case, there have been a low-noise, chronic POIS taking a toll on my stamina every single day, independent from any sexual activity.  So, even of no O in one month, I was slowed down and fatigue would come faster. when exercising, and I have always been slow-recovering after sports.  Now I knw of this chronic energy stealer because since I have implemented some changes, based on all I have learned through this forum, I have so much more stamina, and I need 1 hour less sleep a day, some days 1 1/2 to 2 hours less.  I have always needed 8 1/2 to 9 hours of sleep to be very active and functional, that is, obviously, on non-POIS days (no stamina or anything like "active on POIS day!).  Seven hours was a strict minimum to be able to survive a day at work, and be sure I woudn't send anybody at the hospital because I would have made an error in dispensing a drug or failed to identify a important pharmacological interaction ( I am pharmacist).  This last week, I went to work a few days ago with 5 1/2 to 6 hours of sleep....which have been impossible just 3 weeks ago.  So, fatigue its loosing its grip on me :)  Like I wrote elsewhere on the forum, I have increased my tryptophan intake, used strategy to make it cross the blood brain barrier so it makes it into the brain (glycemic load, IDO inhibitors), and have developped a "Pre-O pack" supplementation that help protect my brain serotonin from the hypersensitivity reactions occurring just after O.  I also saw that many supplements I have found as helping, throughout my 36 years of searching for relief, where indeed good in one or both of these therapeutic goals  (examples: taking magnesium, omega-3 and vitamine D).

About choline, which is a precursor of acetylcholine, it would surely not work for me.  Note that not all POISers have a cholinergic dominance.  But for me, adding more vagal tone to an already strong vagal tone will worsen things.  If you thing you have a strong vagal tone too, Nightingale, I think choline is not for you.  You will be better to take anticholinergic substances -those that lowers the vagal tone.  My favorite anticholinergic is ginger.  If you are too cholinergic, ginger is your friend.  In my case, I am often so cholinergic that I get tinnitus.  Ginger helps with that as well.  Natural Gravol are capsules of ginger.  Standard Gravol (dimenhydrinate) is too strong to be useful for me, causes much unwanted drowsiness, not good for work neither for sport.   Adding magnesium to ginger is good for relaxing the mind, when it gets too active.   Also, taking sympathomimetics help counterbalance a high vagal tone.  I prefer natural ones, like capsaicine (in pepper, chili,, jalapenos,...), tyramine, anti-oxydants ( dark chocolate, vitamine C, pycnogenol, vit E, rosemary, curcumin, ....).  I don't like caffeine (too much for my anxiety).  I don't like pseudoephedrine neither.  And I stay away as much as possible of what is too strong (read "prescription drugs").

Ok, sorry for the long post again, but in a way, putting it in words help me to clarify all this for myself.

I hope this will help some members getting more energy,

Quantum
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Nightingale

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Slow heart beat
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2014, 07:25:55 PM »
I find a lot of connections with your story there, Quantum. I too, don't believe I'm a good candidate for choline, because I've tried supplementing with it already and found it had an unpleasant effect of amping me up! I had also tried eating liver for its high choline content, not good.

I love that you included some natural anticholinergic substances in your reply. I have developed a real love of ginger, I wonder if its anticholinergic effects are partly to blame :) I took ginger capsules for a good month, my gut benefited from it I believe. This was the product, excellent quality: http://www.newchapter.com/force-of-the-whole/ginger-force
How would one supplement with tyramine best? I find it interesting that on Google many low-tyramine diet books came up for headache and migraine reduction... I always think it strange that I really never do get headaches, even when sick.

I had to stop mid thought when I read your post about sympathomimetics... the niacin flush... seemingly necessary for any POIS reduction benefit... capsaicine, ginger both have a warming, nigh flushing feeling when you consume them. Huh...

I need to start posting more about my success with having a cold shower every morning. It's gradually changing my life. Again, vagal tone and combating overactive parasympathetic system?

« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 07:33:36 PM by Nightingale »
Turmeric and Rosemary 30-45 minutes before orgasm for anti-inflammatory and immune support has helped me a lot. Faster and easier than niacin approach.

Quantum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1459
Re: Slow heart beat
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2014, 12:50:04 AM »
I find a lot of connections with your story there, Quantum. I too, don't believe I'm a good candidate for choline, because I've tried supplementing with it already and found it had an unpleasant effect of amping me up! I had also tried eating liver for its high choline content, not good.

I love that you included some natural anticholinergic substances in your reply. I have developed a real love of ginger, I wonder if its anticholinergic effects are partly to blame :) I took ginger capsules for a good month, my gut benefited from it I believe. This was the product, excellent quality: http://www.newchapter.com/force-of-the-whole/ginger-force
How would one supplement with tyramine best? I find it interesting that on Google many low-tyramine diet books came up for headache and migraine reduction... I always think it strange that I really never do get headaches, even when sick.

I had to stop mid thought when I read your post about sympathomimetics... the niacin flush... seemingly necessary for any POIS reduction benefit... capsaicine, ginger both have a warming, nigh flushing feeling when you consume them. Huh...

I need to start posting more about my success with having a cold shower every morning. It's gradually changing my life. Again, vagal tone and combating overactive parasympathetic system?

Hi Nightingale,

Tyramine is a very good trigger for migraine, that's why low-tyramine diets are a must for migrainers.... and they have to avoid aspartame as well!

I don't really have a positive opinion about tyramine, I think it is not the product of choice for a POISers, as it can cause release of histamine.  It can also cause hypertensive crisis if taken with MOAI or other medications.  Many other choices are available as natural sympathomimetics.  For example, green tea extract is good, many anti-oxidants re great, like pycnogenol, resveratrol, vitamine E  (that acts as testosterone and progesterone precursor, an added benefit for POISers), vitamin C, and many more.  There are many preparations containing a combinations of anti-oxydants, and they work well as a boost for the adrenergic system.  Energy drinks are not for me, though...using guarava is a way to include concentrations of caffeine over levels usually accepted in drinks.... there is no rules for it....yet. I do not like the effect of caffeine at all, it makes me anxious.  But I love 70% Dark chocolate !!!   I take some before sports..... delicious!

Niacin have indeed some sympathomimetics properties, like vasodilatation (that causes the flushing).  In the brain, it has a strong cholinergic effect, and lack of this effect is what causes the brain to not function properly (brain fog, slow thinking, impaired memory,...).


The cold shower surely help to boost your adrenergic tone, which is a good thing, because it is helping in counter-balancing the high vagal tone. 


Quantum


You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259