Author Topic: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?  (Read 9050 times)

kristobal

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Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« on: May 12, 2014, 09:55:23 AM »
Hi guys,

I'm new here.
Been having severe fatigue/concentration issues/brain fog/anxiety/low stress resistance for over two years now.
It got to the point where I couldn't function at work anymore.
I always knew orgasm exacerbated my situation, and certainly PMO (watching porn).
Blood tests always come up with: Normal to HIGH total cortisol, but LOW FREE CORTISOL (below range), low DHEA, low PREGNENOLONE.
So that dictates adrenal fatigue.
But then again, I only discovered POIS diagnosis recently, so I am going to try no PMO, NOFAP, abstinence for as long as possible now.

Are there any people here who have the same doubts about their diagnosis/condition as I have?

Thanks for your reply,
K.

Andy451

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2014, 04:53:08 PM »
What you describe is common among us here. if not; the universal POIS symptom regardless of degree of severity of symptoms (a chronic fatigue of sorts).

I also have elevated cortisol and testosterone, yet do not know progesterone levels. Blood tests always come back inconclusive or fine for me as well, with the exception of immunogobulins E and a spinal tap reveling slightly elevated proteins in CSF.

Sometimes my adrenaline goes for so long I feel manic, other times, as inflammation reduces I feel exhausted and very inflexible. I would rather the inflammation than that odd adrenaline fueled mania (where the inflammation is actually greater yet I cannot feel it because I numb out from the high pain).
28 yo M- POIS for 16yrs (since age 12). Chronic POIS- always there

Tried desensitization for 1.5yrs & was unsuccessful (POIS worse at 1/1000)

 Exercising- (running/light weights/situps/yoga) Ice my perineum. Gluten-free. Supplements- limited success.Meds- Oxcarbazepine/Buspar (past-Depakote10yrs)

less_fogged

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2016, 04:14:39 PM »
I'm searching and browsing through old chats regarding adrenal fatigue and POIS

Can anyone remember interesting conclusions or references that came up?

My doc asked me if I can find something regarding this.

Stef

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2016, 09:33:31 PM »
I'm searching and browsing through old chats regarding adrenal fatigue and POIS

Can anyone remember interesting conclusions or references that came up?

My doc asked me if I can find something regarding this.

Hi, less_fogged --

The diagnosis of "adrenal fatigue" is not yet accepted by mainstream medicine. Your physician is probably having a devil of a time finding reliable information.

I take it from your post that you've searched the forum (via the search box) for "adrenal fatigue," and have found several previous posts. I don't know if there were any definite conclusions or good references in those posts. I did just do a google search and a PubMed search for "adrenal fatigue," but found nothing to recommend.

Maybe some of your comrades here will have some helpful information to share.

Best wishes,
Stef

demografx

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2016, 10:21:53 PM »
Since 2007, most of the posts addressing "adrenal fatigue" have not been scientifically based.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

b_jim

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2016, 02:20:34 AM »
I accept the idea that adrenal fatigue is not  a real disease and not argued by real facts.
But :

1/ Nowadays, medias AND doctors use more and more the word "burn out" at work which is exactly the SAME THING !!

2/ If my heart, my kidneys or other organs can be fatigued because I'm old, I drank too much alcohol or for any reason, I can"t understand why my adrenal glands couldn't be fatigued by too much stress.

3/ Some article like this :
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/286390
"WHO recognizes adrenal fatigue syndrome as real ailment"
I sent a mail to stephanie Dearing but I never got the original article from the WHO !

So, the debate is not closed on this subject.
Remember the debate about opioid peptids.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 02:22:37 AM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois
Lyme disease "cured" in 2020.

demografx

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2016, 06:06:52 AM »
Good points to consider, b_jim.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

less_fogged

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2016, 03:36:00 PM »
Thanks stef, b_jim and demo for the tips

Every time I visit my doc, he's puzzled at knowing how he could help me further.  And without being able to get a diagnosis it can sometimes make things pretty complex regarding social security which is why he's searching hard.
All I can do and have done is make myself ill from the one day to the next and show him the state I get in when POIS hits me hard and willing to allow him draw my blood etc... proving I'm not taking drugs or something causing this on purpose!!! Besides this all I can do is put him in contact with previous docs that I've been in contact with over the years while I was trying to figure out what exactly my problem was.

All together for me a combination of abstaining as much as possible together with a healthy diet keeps my head reasonably clear but chest inflammation stays another story. The inflammation part asks for a lot of homework though to try prevent sleep interuption. During the day I feel like staying active is what helps the most to keep inflammation partly under control.

tirasoft

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2019, 09:13:43 PM »
Hello

In my opinion , POIS is definitely related with the adrenals / adrenal fatigue.

To give you an example , in my case when I have POIS symptoms, lately I have a ache of my left adrenal gland...
If you google for adrenal fatigue symptoms you will find that they are very similar with POIS ones. (almost identical)

And , there is a known fact that orgasm is causing spikes in cortisol (pituitary glad involved here) . Who produces that one ? Adrenals.
Exposing adrenals to repeated stress - can lead to adrenal fatigue .

Even further - you may ask yourself POIS could be in fact a specific form of adrenal fatigue?
By the way - could be just a coincidence, both , POIS and adrenal fatigue ,are not accepted as recognised medical conditions...



demografx

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2019, 12:44:06 AM »
Since 2007, most of the posts addressing "adrenal fatigue" have not been scientifically based.
10 years of significant POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business

special123

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2019, 04:12:16 PM »
Hey man,

I completely sympathize with you here. Have you tried supplementing with something like pregnenalone? Also, I recommend looking into some thyroid labs, if you haven't already. They could yield some important information.

Bellini

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2023, 11:50:14 AM »
An incapacity of normally producing cortisol is a well established medical condition, with known protocols of how to address it taught in all medical schools of the world.

Science has shown that cortisol decreases during sexual arousal, reaching even lower levels after orgasm.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18624961/#:~:text=This%20has%20been%20demonstrated%20experimentally,decreasing%20cortisol%20during%20sexual%20arousal.

Given that someone has already some cortisol producing issues and decides to have sex in the evening, when we all have naturally lower cortisol, this person can reach an abnormally lower level of cortisol, which is very dangerous.

Actually, it's interesting that in Addison's disease forums, which is a disease of chronically low cortisol, they talk about POIS without knowing what POIS is. They even do their 'pre-packs' before sex, which mainly consists of taking extra doses of the pills they already take to increase cortisol, otherwise they can even 'pass out'.

https://freeimage.host/i/HroRdog

https://freeimage.host/i/HroRoNt

Interesting, isn't it?

There's a concept in cardiology called myocardial stunning.

According to wikipedia:

"Myocardial stunning or transient post-ischemic myocardial dysfunction is a state of mechanical cardiac dysfunction that can occur in a portion of myocardium without necrosis after a brief interruption in perfusion, despite the timely restoration of normal coronary blood flow. In this situation, even after ischemia has been relieved (by for instance angioplasty or coronary artery bypass surgery) and myocardial blood flow (MBF) returns to normal, myocardial function is still depressed for a variable period of time, usually DAYS TO WEEKS. This reversible reduction of function of heart contraction after reperfusion is not accounted for by tissue damage or reduced blood flow, but rather, its thought to represent a perfusion-contraction "mismatch"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocardial_stunning

Likewise, a orgasm for people with Addison's can have a similar effect of making their adrenal glands overloaded, or 'stunned', thus, they will have even lower levels of cortisol afterwards than they tend to have. This 'mismatch' between the amount of cortisol the person needs and the amount it has can result in something called an adrenal crisis:

https://www.uclahealth.org/medical-services/surgery/endocrine-surgery/patient-resources/patient-education/endocrine-surgery-encyclopedia/acute-adrenal-crisis#:~:text=Acute%20adrenal%20crisis%20is%20a%20medical%20emergency%20caused%20by%20a,or%20even%20loss%20of%20consciousness.

I don't believe that people here have Addison's nor adrenal crisis after orgasm, those are extreme cases that can cause death, POISers don't tend to collapse, or die, after orgasm (although they certainly can too in some extreme cases), but if we use the people with Addison's as canaries in a coal mine, maybe we can see things a little bit clearer.

ascorbate

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2023, 06:41:25 PM »
An incapacity of normally producing cortisol is a well established medical condition, with known protocols of how to address it taught in all medical schools of the world.

Science has shown that cortisol decreases during sexual arousal, reaching even lower levels after orgasm.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18624961/#:~:text=This%20has%20been%20demonstrated%20experimentally,decreasing%20cortisol%20during%20sexual%20arousal.

Given that someone has already some cortisol producing issues and decides to have sex in the evening, when we all have naturally lower cortisol, this person can reach an abnormally lower level of cortisol, which is very dangerous.

Actually, it's interesting that in Addison's disease forums, which is a disease of chronically low cortisol, they talk about POIS without knowing what POIS is. They even do their 'pre-packs' before sex, which mainly consists of taking extra doses of the pills they already take to increase cortisol, otherwise they can even 'pass out'.

https://freeimage.host/i/HroRdog

https://freeimage.host/i/HroRoNt

Interesting, isn't it?

There's a concept in cardiology called myocardial stunning.

According to wikipedia:

"Myocardial stunning or transient post-ischemic myocardial dysfunction is a state of mechanical cardiac dysfunction that can occur in a portion of myocardium without necrosis after a brief interruption in perfusion, despite the timely restoration of normal coronary blood flow. In this situation, even after ischemia has been relieved (by for instance angioplasty or coronary artery bypass surgery) and myocardial blood flow (MBF) returns to normal, myocardial function is still depressed for a variable period of time, usually DAYS TO WEEKS. This reversible reduction of function of heart contraction after reperfusion is not accounted for by tissue damage or reduced blood flow, but rather, its thought to represent a perfusion-contraction "mismatch"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocardial_stunning

Likewise, a orgasm for people with Addison's can have a similar effect of making their adrenal glands overloaded, or 'stunned', thus, they will have even lower levels of cortisol afterwards than they tend to have. This 'mismatch' between the amount of cortisol the person needs and the amount it has can result in something called an adrenal crisis:

https://www.uclahealth.org/medical-services/surgery/endocrine-surgery/patient-resources/patient-education/endocrine-surgery-encyclopedia/acute-adrenal-crisis#:~:text=Acute%20adrenal%20crisis%20is%20a%20medical%20emergency%20caused%20by%20a,or%20even%20loss%20of%20consciousness.

I don't believe that people here have Addison's nor adrenal crisis after orgasm, those are extreme cases that can cause death, POISers don't tend to collapse, or die, after orgasm (although they certainly can too in some extreme cases), but if we use the people with Addison's as canaries in a coal mine, maybe we can see things a little bit clearer.
This is very interesting. My POIS symptoms often mimic my low-cortisol symptoms. FWIW I was diagnosed in 2017 with severe adrenal insufficiency of unknown etiology. I have been on 20mg of cortisol since then, with higher doses as needed during times of stress.

I have noticed my need for hydrocortisone goes up after O. Especially 2 in one night. The next 48 hours or so I have to 'stress dose' my HC or I will be unable to function or get out of bed.

I find it takes 3-4 days of higher doses of HC, usually in the 30mg range, to get me back to 'functional' status.

So my experience validates everything you are saying here. I have very good testosterone, free T at the very top 5% of the range and total T at 865. All of my symptoms tend to mimic low cortisol/high prolactin symptoms. I notice my need for salt goes up tremendously (low aldosterone is classic with addisons/related insufficiency) for a few days after O as well. Nothing but lots of rest, hydration, and supplementary hormones such as hydrocortisone and DHEA, brings me back to functionality. Around day 7 I am pretty much back, and sometimes even as long as 14 days are needed for a full recovery, especially if I O'd 2-3x in one night.

Bellini

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Re: Adrenal Fatigue or POIS ?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2023, 09:37:45 AM »
Quote
This is very interesting. My POIS symptoms often mimic my low-cortisol symptoms. FWIW I was diagnosed in 2017 with severe adrenal insufficiency of unknown etiology. I have been on 20mg of cortisol since then, with higher doses as needed during times of stress.

I have noticed my need for hydrocortisone goes up after O. Especially 2 in one night. The next 48 hours or so I have to 'stress dose' my HC or I will be unable to function or get out of bed.

I find it takes 3-4 days of higher doses of HC, usually in the 30mg range, to get me back to 'functional' status.

So my experience validates everything you are saying here. I have very good testosterone, free T at the very top 5% of the range and total T at 865. All of my symptoms tend to mimic low cortisol/high prolactin symptoms. I notice my need for salt goes up tremendously (low aldosterone is classic with addisons/related insufficiency) for a few days after O as well. Nothing but lots of rest, hydration, and supplementary hormones such as hydrocortisone and DHEA, brings me back to functionality. Around day 7 I am pretty much back, and sometimes even as long as 14 days are needed for a full recovery, especially if I O'd 2-3x in one night.


Hello,

People with Addison's at least have a North, actual guidelines to follow through and improve their symptoms, but that's not the case for most people with POIS. We can show doctors slightly abnormal levels of C-Reactive protein, or prolactin and a few other off the mark levels, but since they are not that significative, they tend to be easily dismissed, or worse, we can end up with a medical referral to a psychiatrist.

You mentioned salt, and I believe that this is the elephant in the room that poisers, doctors and even researchers tend to overlook: the huge increase in urination followed by a huge decrease in sodium levels after orgasm. That's factual, that's measurable, that's quantifiable. That also lumps together poisers with Addison's, at least for a few days. It would be my starting point if I were a POIS researcher: why does this patient, apparently, get some sort of mild Addison's disease for just a few days? What is happening with his HPA axis?

Most poisers will not actually perceive his hyponatremia and increased urge to urinate, but the ones who are amateur athletes can easily measure that, because before a very long and strenuous physical activity, they have to plan how much water and sodium they will need to carry it with them and ingest every x hours, they also know exactly how many times they will have to urinate after every x hours, and on POIS all that go out of the window, the body becomes unreliable. You become a sodium/urea excreting machine, just like rowing with a leak in your boat. I believe that's why so many here say that they are 'exercise intolerant'. It can be very painful, you also get very prone to cramps.

Besides, a lot of people with POIS also complain of DOMS and difficulty gaining muscle, what is just another symptom of Addison's:

https://www.rxlist.com/addison_anemia/definition.htm

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22377-pernicious-anemia
« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 10:32:13 AM by Bellini »