Author Topic: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone  (Read 5828 times)

eur79m

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Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« on: December 17, 2013, 12:13:03 PM »
Feedback to my current immunosuppression trial:

I have been taking 60mg Prednisololne (active metabolite of Prednisone) for 5 days. My condition worsened. Stronger pain in my abdominal area, stronger joint pain, stronger headaches, basically a stronger version of my usual POIS symptoms.

Currently I am tapering down the dosis at 40mg and my status seems to be improving.

In my specific case this seems to be a clear counter-indication in respect to an auto-immune process as the cause of my observed symptoms. If my symptoms were the result of an excessive auto-immune response, than this response should be subdued by the corticosteroid and I should have felt symptomatic relive.

The worsening of my symptoms however seems to suggest that in my case my immune system response (POIS symptoms) is actually targeted against an external cause. If indeed some external vector (bacteria, virus, etc) would be the cause of my usual symptoms, than it can be expected that during an immunosuppressed state this vector would be able to express itself stronger, thus me experiencing stronger symptoms.

My next steps will thus focus on rejecting my new most likely hypothesis, that I do carry some external vector, which is responsible for the immune response that I am experiencing and which might be the underlying cause for my POIS symptoms.

Personal to-do list for the next weeks:
- trying to reject Lyme borreliosis as a potential cause, making use of all available diagnostic methods
- non-specific/un-targeted antibiotic therapy to test if my POIS symptoms respond to an antibiotic regime

I do not suggest that my specific situation can be generalized to others suffering of the same POIS symptoms! It may well be that we all suffer of similar symptoms with differing causes...

It would thus be great if others would be willing to replicate the immunossuppressive trial (only under medical supervision!) to provide for a larger empirical basis.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers

Daveman

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 01:49:24 PM »
Feedback to my current immunosuppression trial:

I have been taking 60mg Prednisololne (active metabolite of Prednisone) for 5 days. My condition worsened. Stronger pain in my abdominal area, stronger joint pain, stronger headaches, basically a stronger version of my usual POIS symptoms.

Currently I am tapering down the dosis at 40mg and my status seems to be improving.

In my specific case this seems to be a clear counter-indication in respect to an auto-immune process as the cause of my observed symptoms. If my symptoms were the result of an excessive auto-immune response, than this response should be subdued by the corticosteroid and I should have felt symptomatic relive.

The worsening of my symptoms however seems to suggest that in my case my immune system response (POIS symptoms) is actually targeted against an external cause. If indeed some external vector (bacteria, virus, etc) would be the cause of my usual symptoms, than it can be expected that during an immunosuppressed state this vector would be able to express itself stronger, thus me experiencing stronger symptoms.

My next steps will thus focus on rejecting my new most likely hypothesis, that I do carry some external vector, which is responsible for the immune response that I am experiencing and which might be the underlying cause for my POIS symptoms.

Personal to-do list for the next weeks:
- trying to reject Lyme borreliosis as a potential cause, making use of all available diagnostic methods
- non-specific/un-targeted antibiotic therapy to test if my POIS symptoms respond to an antibiotic regime

I do not suggest that my specific situation can be generalized to others suffering of the same POIS symptoms! It may well be that we all suffer of similar symptoms with differing causes...

It would thus be great if others would be willing to replicate the immunossuppressive trial (only under medical supervision!) to provide for a larger empirical basis.

Will keep you posted.

Cheers

You've just undergone an intense surgical procedure, there could be any number of factors involved in the near future. Some persons have suffered limb pain or itching after amputations, lingering nervous system reactions.

I think it is difficult to make any kind of determination until things settle down for a bit.

Try to involve your doctor a little more. He was not in favor of your operation, but now that you've had it, perhaps he can be of help to at least orient in terms of non-POIS
reactions, which can be separated out to more better evaluate the situation.

Be careful and patient.

WITHOUT RESEARCH THERE WILL BE NO CURE!
Sessions 5 to 9 days, mostly Flu-like, joints, digestion problems, light cognitive.
Niacin has changed my lif though, now 1 day MAX.
Somewhere in this interaction with Niacin is the answer!

Nightingale

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 02:20:54 PM »
Interesting stuff, again.

I'm wondering, does determining if an active herpesvirus 6 infection is occuring interest you? I mentioned it earlier, and there have been quite a few studies tying HHV-6 to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, which shares a lot in common with POIS.

"Other studies have employed assays that can detect active infection: primary cell culture, PCR of serum or plasma or IgM early antigen antibodies. The majority of these studies have shown an association between CFS and active HHV-6 infection"

"In summary, active infection with HHV-6 is present in a substantial fraction of patients with CFS. Moreover, HHV-6 is known to infect cells of the nervous system and immune system, organ systems with demonstrable abnormalities in CFS."

All from the wikipedia page for HHV-6: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_herpesvirus_6

It's amazing how much the medical community doesn't know about these external vectors...
Turmeric and Rosemary 30-45 minutes before orgasm for anti-inflammatory and immune support has helped me a lot. Faster and easier than niacin approach.

Going less Crazy

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 09:22:02 PM »
Please keep us posted on the antibiotic regime.  For some reason being actually sick and taking antibiotics makes my head feel a lot better.  Thats why I always feel like POIS can be caused by something external.

Although I've been tested for Lyme disease 3 times (negative all 3 times), I still feel like I can have it or something similar, but I also got an "mri" and everything was "perfect".  I mean that is how bad it feels.  But I don't think the viruses would react to orgasm or stimulation, unless adrenaline or some other hormone had an affect on it.  Now's probably not the time to continue on the self-diagnosing train, I think I'm going to save myself the worry and just wait for the research.

Than again, since having POIS for the past 8 years, I have only gotten better, so if it was some chronic untreated illness I feel as if I would have gotten worse.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 09:51:53 PM by Going less Crazy »
My POIS managed with Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O = neuro POIS from inflammation from the gut

Current supps: microdose of zyrtec and gaia liquid olive leaf extract for sleep. Micro astragalus and 1tsp ev olive oil for energy .

eur79m

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2014, 01:00:26 PM »
Hey guys,

one year passed, things only have worsened, and still no results.

After my last post I finished the immunosuppression and switched to an antibiotic regimen right away. Since lyme disease seemed to be a possible cause, I followed an appropriate antibiotic regimen against borreliosis. I had four weeks of 400mg Doxycyclin daily and 200mg of Hydroxychloroquin every two days. The terrible state of health that I was in after the immunosuppression improved within a couple of days, especially the 'foggy head' feeling got better. It did definitely not cure me but my symptoms seemed to get better slowly. Most interestingly though is the hard fact that my ALT serum level improved from 138 to 57 during the antibiotic regimen (upper normal range is 50)! I could also feel my liver pain level decrease. This is especially significant since the antibiotic is metabolized by the liver and is normally rather expected to have a negative effect on the liver.

I stopped this antibiotic regimen, waited two weeks, and then started a hard-core combined antibiotic therapy, which is used to treat borreliosis. For four weeks I had daily 2g Ceftriaxon (intravenously), 200mg Minocyclin, and 500mg Tinidazole. I experienced a slow positive reaction, my head felt clearer, and my heart and liver pain completely disappeared towards the end of the antibiotic regimen. Still, considering this long-term, high dose, combined antibiotic regimen, my symptoms only showed mild improvement. Especially the post-ejaculatory worsening could be observed throughout the therapy. After the therapy I felt better and my ALT serum level was still at 60 one month later but from there my condition deteriorated again. I did not take any further medications until this November, at which time my ALT serum level had risen again to ~100, which manifests itself as worsening liver pain.

After the two antibiotics sessions I waited some weeks for the antibiotics effects to dissipate and then had about every lab test for lyme disease performed that you can think of, including shipping a semen sample to a specialized lab in silicon valley to have it analyzed for trace amounts of borrelia DNA. This as well as most other tests were negative for borrelia. I also saw two top European lyme disease specialists, which both agree that lyme borreliosis is highly unlikely / can be ruled out.

I do agree with this conclusion but still see some kind of external vector, that thrives in an immunosuppressed system and can be controlled by antibiotics, as the most likely causative agent for my symptoms. A high ranking infectiologist at my local university hospital does not agree however and states that my reactions to immunosuppression and antibiotics are meaningless. I was denied any kind of diagnostics in that respect and he is trying to get rid of me by labeling my case as 'chronic fatigue symptom'.

I was however tested by another doctor for a broad range of antibodies against several infectious diseases and have positive IgA, IgG, IgM against EBV and Chlamydia pneumonia (not the STD). These results are only indicative and it is not clear if there is indeed an active infection of either EBV or Chlamydia pneumonia but I am currently on a treatment regimen targeted at both potential infections. I started with an immune modulation against EBV (which is also active against herpes virus) as well as loads of nutrition supplements (Vitamins etc). http://www.drugs.com/international/inosine-pranobex.html
Three weeks of the antiviral and supplements did not have any noticeable effect. Now I started again a combined antibiotic treatment targeted against chlamydia pneumonia. It consists of 600mg Azithromyzin 3 times a week, 200mg Minocyclin daily, and 800mg Artemisin daily. I am just in the 'ramping-up' phase and I cannot detect any major effect yet. It does seem that my post-ejaculatory exhaustion is milder and my post-ejaculatory prostate pain as well. I have 7 weeks on this treatment ahead of me... will keep you posted.

If anybody has made similar experiences as me, please let me know.

Going less Crazy

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 11:45:49 PM »
eur79m,

I haven't done much research into prednisolone but is it possible that it suppressed only a certain aspect of your immune system that has nothing to do with POIS?  I know there are different allergic reactions, type 1, type 2, or whatever/etc. that both could react to a separate thing.  So maybe taking the medication you were taking only suppressed some part of your immune system that has nothing to do with POIS.

In the meantime, I think I might go to the doctor and try to get some doxycycline *edited as I just say you were taking that but who knows it may work for me * as I hear that it does a good job at penetrating the blood-brain barrier, so maybe any possible infection or whatever could be cleared up.  Even doing this would calm my mind that I don't have some crazy neuro-infection.
My POIS managed with Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O = neuro POIS from inflammation from the gut

Current supps: microdose of zyrtec and gaia liquid olive leaf extract for sleep. Micro astragalus and 1tsp ev olive oil for energy .

Nightingale

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 11:56:43 AM »
Pleaaaase read: I took Doxycycline for years as a treatment for acne. I believe this predisposed me for the terrible and supremely annoying digestive issues that I have had to deal with and still face. Large doses of powerful antibiotics will affect your gut microbiome. IF you feel like antibiotics are unavoidable, please please seriously consider heavy probiotic dosing afterwards.

It seems like many of us with POIS have gut issues. Do what you can to avoid them, they are tenacious and will make everything harder. PM me if you need to know anything about probiotics, I have a lot of experience.
Turmeric and Rosemary 30-45 minutes before orgasm for anti-inflammatory and immune support has helped me a lot. Faster and easier than niacin approach.

Quantum

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2014, 01:11:20 PM »
Hey guys,

one year passed, things only have worsened, and still no results.

After my last post I finished the immunosuppression and switched to an antibiotic regimen right away. Since lyme disease seemed to be a possible cause, I followed an appropriate antibiotic regimen against borreliosis. I had four weeks of 400mg Doxycyclin daily and 200mg of Hydroxychloroquin every two days. The terrible state of health that I was in after the immunosuppression improved within a couple of days, especially the 'foggy head' feeling got better. It did definitely not cure me but my symptoms seemed to get better slowly. Most interestingly though is the hard fact that my ALT serum level improved from 138 to 57 during the antibiotic regimen (upper normal range is 50)! I could also feel my liver pain level decrease. This is especially significant since the antibiotic is metabolized by the liver and is normally rather expected to have a negative effect on the liver.

I stopped this antibiotic regimen, waited two weeks, and then started a hard-core combined antibiotic therapy, which is used to treat borreliosis. For four weeks I had daily 2g Ceftriaxon (intravenously), 200mg Minocyclin, and 500mg Tinidazole. I experienced a slow positive reaction, my head felt clearer, and my heart and liver pain completely disappeared towards the end of the antibiotic regimen. Still, considering this long-term, high dose, combined antibiotic regimen, my symptoms only showed mild improvement. Especially the post-ejaculatory worsening could be observed throughout the therapy. After the therapy I felt better and my ALT serum level was still at 60 one month later but from there my condition deteriorated again. I did not take any further medications until this November, at which time my ALT serum level had risen again to ~100, which manifests itself as worsening liver pain.

After the two antibiotics sessions I waited some weeks for the antibiotics effects to dissipate and then had about every lab test for lyme disease performed that you can think of, including shipping a semen sample to a specialized lab in silicon valley to have it analyzed for trace amounts of borrelia DNA. This as well as most other tests were negative for borrelia. I also saw two top European lyme disease specialists, which both agree that lyme borreliosis is highly unlikely / can be ruled out.

I do agree with this conclusion but still see some kind of external vector, that thrives in an immunosuppressed system and can be controlled by antibiotics, as the most likely causative agent for my symptoms. A high ranking infectiologist at my local university hospital does not agree however and states that my reactions to immunosuppression and antibiotics are meaningless. I was denied any kind of diagnostics in that respect and he is trying to get rid of me by labeling my case as 'chronic fatigue symptom'.

I was however tested by another doctor for a broad range of antibodies against several infectious diseases and have positive IgA, IgG, IgM against EBV and Chlamydia pneumonia (not the STD). These results are only indicative and it is not clear if there is indeed an active infection of either EBV or Chlamydia pneumonia but I am currently on a treatment regimen targeted at both potential infections. I started with an immune modulation against EBV (which is also active against herpes virus) as well as loads of nutrition supplements (Vitamins etc). http://www.drugs.com/international/inosine-pranobex.html
Three weeks of the antiviral and supplements did not have any noticeable effect. Now I started again a combined antibiotic treatment targeted against chlamydia pneumonia. It consists of 600mg Azithromyzin 3 times a week, 200mg Minocyclin daily, and 800mg Artemisin daily. I am just in the 'ramping-up' phase and I cannot detect any major effect yet. It does seem that my post-ejaculatory exhaustion is milder and my post-ejaculatory prostate pain as well. I have 7 weeks on this treatment ahead of me... will keep you posted.

If anybody has made similar experiences as me, please let me know.


Hi eur79m,

You have somehow an atypical presentation of POIS.  Your elevated level of alanine transaminase (ALT) is not a common finding in POIS, as far as I could see from forum members info, as well as from my own blood tests through the years.  In my opinion, it seems that POIS is only a part of your health challenges, as you seems to have an underlying metabolic disorder that affect your liver, and, evidently, is worsened by POIS.  What you experience as chronic, POIS symptoms are akin to what I call my low-noise, everyday POIS, which I came to understand is not caused by POIS itself, but by an underlying metabolic problem or genetic setting predisposing me to this condition, which is exacerbated anytime I have an O, so it becomes part of my POIS.

My attention was attracted by the fact that you had a worsening of your symptoms under prednisolone treatment.  Although prednisolone decreases the immunity response and may worsens an existing infection, I am not totally convince that in your case, it is indeed an external vector, be it viral or bacterial, that has been the cause of this worsening, and, consequently, of your chronic symptomatology.  I see another possibility, which, of course, implies personal views on what POIS is, although based on scientific grounds.  Some liver enzymes have their activity modified by endogenous cortisol  (hence, by prednisolone, which act on the glucocorticoid receptors, which are the natural targets of the cortisol produced by the cortex of our adrenal glands).  Of particular interest for POIS sufferers is the TDO liver enzyme (  Tryptophan 2,3-dioxygenase , see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan_2,3-dioxygenase ) .  TDO plays a crucial role in the regulation of the tryptophan metabolism, which is partly in cause in my POIS problem, and I suspect the same for many POIS sufferers.  TDO enzyme is upregulated by stress/cortisol, the net effect being a higher rate of Tryptophan (Trp) transformation in niacin by the liver.  This higher rate of Trp use by the liver decrease peripheral levels of Trp, so less Trp is available at the blood brain barrier, hence creating a shortage of Trp supplies for the brain.  This is quite dramatic, since the brain depends on adequate supplies of Trp for the synthesis of both niacin and serotonin.  Serotonin does not cross the blood brain barrier, so less Trp passing to the brain means less serotonin produced in the brain, provoking symptoms as fatigue, depression, mood swings, irritability, low self-esteem, emotional distress, anxiety, and the like ( the story of my life....but less and less, now !).  Less niacin in the brain leads to brain fog, memory problem, lack of mental focus, and the like. In POIS, other enzymes are activated as well by the immune reaction involved, like a non-liver enzyme called IDO, also important in Trp metabolism.  But in your case, with elevated ALT, TDO seems of particular importance.

You seems to have undergone intensive medical screening.  I would be interested to know if you have been tested for fatty liver disease, a metabolic disorder in which ALT are elevated ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_liver ) .  You do not mention regular intake of alcohol, so I would think about the non-alcoholic form of this disorder ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-alcoholic_fatty_liver_disease ).  I think it would worth a look, in case you never think of this possibility.  You could ask your physician about this (or your father, which I think I read is a physician :) )  If this would be the case, a good source of choline, like lecithin, which is cheap an reliable, is advised and would help with many symptoms
( FYI, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline#Health_effects_of_dietary_choline ,
and http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/choline/ ).

In any case, your high ALT is a sure sign that your liver in constantly under attack, whether it is a type of chronic hepatitis, a form of cirrhosis, or another hepatic problem.  I would like to share with you some general advice that has been working well for myself, since I tend to have liver problems too, like I said earlier.

But just before, let me re-copy here, for anybody reading this, an important rule of this forum, as posted by Daveman: "POISCenter is not a substitute for professional medical advice or treatment. Always consult your physician and do not rely on the information in this site when making decisions about your health. The content in POISCenter is for information only and is not reviewed by medical professionals. Similarly, do not use POISCenter to give medical advice. You may share information about your experiences, but do not play the role of health professional."  As I have already mentioned on this forum, I am a pharmacist, but not your pharmacist, an important distinction.  When I give advice to my patients, I am professionally responsible for what I suggest.  Not here.  I basically share what works for me, if this could be of any help to others here, and I am participating in this forum because I am experiencing POIS personally, not because I am a health professional.

So, in case of liver problems:

- avoid alcohol as much as possible, as well as anything that is extensively metabolized by the liver, like paracetamol/acetaminophen, or else.  In my case, I never take more than half a glass of wine at a time, unless I get drowsy, a sure consequence of my mild hepatic insufficiency (read "slow liver).
- avoidance of too much lipid intake at a time is also advised.  I love cheese, but must eat just a little bit at a time, unless I want to feel drained and heavy !
- water, lots of drinking water (source water, not tap water with chlorine and all kind of added stuff), is very important in hepatic problems.  I drink at the least one liter a day, but 2 liters is  better.  A sure sign that you do not drink enough water is that your urine is dark yellow.  Drink water till your urine is almost clear as the toilet water, everyday (unless you take B complex or B vitamins, which will color your urine in yellow).  Another sign of not enough water is an icteric complexion (jaundice-like), or having a yellowish sclera (the white of the eyes is tainted in yellowish green)

- Milk thistle is the friend of anyone having hepatic problems.  Moreover, milk thistle has added benefits in POIS, since a substance in it (DHQ) is a TDO inhibitor ( according to my current understanding of POIS, it is a benefit ).  I use it as part of my pre-O pack (the supplement I take before O, in order to prevent POIS symtmtoms)  Milk Thistle is a great antioxydant source that has a particular affinity for the liver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silybum_marianum#Protection_from_Toxin-induced_liver_damage ) It is approved by the E Commission as a valuable help in case of hepatitis and cirrhosis.  Whenever I take milk thistle, I always feel a significant gain in my energy level.   I would be interested to see if this affordable supplement would help lower your ALT, as well as lower the pain in your liver area.

As a side note, i have noted that in the past, milk thistle had a specific side effect for me. Before meditation has become a dally practice for me, I was far from being centered, emotionally speaking.  At that time, when taking milk thistle, the extra energy would most of the time translate in a slightly more elevated level of aggressiveness and irritability.  But now, being much more calm and centered, thanks to daily meditation and other things like omega-3, I get the benefit of milk thistle without it messing with my social and familial life :)

- Artichoke and black radish are also valuable as liver helpers.  I personally use supplements with those two plus milk thistle in it, and lots of water to fully ripe the benefits for the liver.

- avoid stress and high emotional activation level, in particular anger... I have experienced serious boots of liver problems following these, and not only because cortisol is influencing hepatic metabolism.   Fully activated stress/fear response and its physiological consequences is not what is needed to help the liver! 

- avoid fructose ( as in concentrated fruit juices, sweets, etc...), sucrose (which is half fructose) and avoid anything a=having high glucose-fructose syrup HGFS in it.  This, in fact, is not good only for hepatic problems, it is also good for any POIS sufferer, and I would say that it would benefit anybody's health, since high fast sugars concentration are not natural and our digestive system is not adapted to it, yet.


Those basic things has been good for my hepatic health. Let me know if you decide to try some of these suggestions, in particular milk thistle, and lecithin.

Have a great day!

Quantum



 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 05:58:24 PM by Quantum »
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

eur79m

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2015, 01:42:56 PM »
Hi guys,

@Quantum: Thanks a lot for your detailed feedback!! Very much appreciated.

You are right, I would also call my symptoms 'atypical' POIS. I am definitely not the typical POIS sufferer and whatever the cause of my symptoms is, it might be something completely different in your case. However, I do think that my case lends itself well to potentially establish at least one possible cause of POIS, since it was one event (squeezing right testicle) that caused all my pain and following symptoms and the cause of my symptoms can be definitely located in my right inguinal region. This location close to the liver is most likely also the cause for my liver pain and rising ALT values. I am only a social drinker (1-2x a week, no hard alcohol) but did not live alcohol abstinent until now. This indeed might slightly aggravate the issue but alcohol is not the cause.

I am writing to give you an update on my antibiotics treatment. It has now been eight weeks that I have been on a combined antibiotic regimen. The strongest effect is that the brain fog is gone within 48h of starting a Tetracycline treatment (I prefer Minocyclin to Doxicyclin). This is not the first time I have experienced this effect since I have tried Tetracyclines before. Also I did start to feel my normal energy level return, less lethargy, and generally feeling much better. However, I did have my ups and downs. In the first weeks of the treatment I had days where I had no post-orgasmic symptoms whatsoever! One day I had 5 orgasms and no negative reaction. Eventually it worsened however, and it seemed the post-orgasmic symptoms returned stronger but not lasting as long. One day I even developed a slight fever after an orgasm the evening before, feeling extremely crappy. The localized pains, the burning in my inguinal area, my liver pain and in my left chest are still there but subjectively getting slightly better... In conclusion, the antibiotics seem to work very slowly but with a general positive trend.

I thus decided to continue and even increase the antibiotic treatment for another eight weeks. I am now on 2x100mg Minocyclin / day, 600mg Azithromyzin 3x a week, and just started 450mg Rifampicin / day. These antibiotics are from three different kinds of antibiotics classes (tetracyclines, macrolides, rifamycines) and are targeted at chronic extrapulmonal chlamydia pneumonia. The diagnosis is not yet proven but my latest lab results do provide further indirect evidence in support of this theory. I had an Elispot LTT test for Chlamydia pneumonia performed before taking the antibiotics and after 7 weeks. The LTT result was elevated before the antibiotics with a value of 6 (vs normal range <2). Following 7 weeks of antibiotics this value exploded to 39, potentially indicating an activation of lymphocytes carrying Chlamydia pneumonia antigens. In addition my CD57 NK cells (which were very low before) increased substantially. ALT is also slightly better, even though this hardcore antibiotics regimen is expected to have a rather detrimental effect on this value, since most them are metabolized by the liver. In summary, antibiotics in my case definitely have SOME (positive) effect, it could be just the anti-inflammatory effect (which would be temporary and of no use) but due to the way my body reacts and the intermittent worsening and stronger / shorter post-ejaculatory symptoms I would judge this highly unlikely. The most likely explanation according to my subjective experience (and my very objective ALT values) is a chronic bacterial infection with the current most likely culprit being Chlamydia pneumonia. The only way to establish a final diagnosis is to detect bacterial DNA with PCR. I will have my ejaculate tested with PCR for Chlamydia pneumonia as well as Chlamydia trachomatis in two weeks.

In addition to the above antibiotics regimen I currently take the following:
- 800mg Artemisin / day (usually used against Malaria)
- 420mg Silymarin / day (milk thistle, as Quantum explained this supports the liver)
- 600mg Acetylcystein / day
- Probiotika
- Vitamin B and D

Nightingale is right, antibiotics will fuck up your digestive system for a long time and they can have all kinds of nasty side effects. My therapy is supervised by two doctors and I have bi-weekly blood tests and ECG done to catch any potential side effects early. So dont replicate any of this without close supervision by a doctor who has experience with combined antibiotic protocols.

Before trying antibiotics I would actually try the opposite road... immunosuppression. I had 60mg Prednisolone for 5 days... and it was hell. Switching to antibiotics right away alleviated symptoms... This isnt proof of anything but if anybody were to experience the same effects, the cause of our symptoms is probably similar / the same. This is very experimental and is also only to be performed under close medical supervision!

Since there is no "Infectious Causes and Treatments" section in the forum and "Auto-Immune Causes and Treatments" is clearly not applicable to my case any more, I will open a thread in 'General Alternative Causes and Treatments of POIS' and will provide further updates there.

Cheers

berlin1984

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2020, 09:56:52 AM »
I'll put this in the thread here, didn't find a better place.

From Reddit:
Quote

r/POIS
?Posted byu/YemAli
1 hour ago
On the way to recovery thanks to my brilliant doctor!

On a medicine called Deltacortil, Taking it 4 hours before O and nothing after. Slowly reducing the dosage and have perfect results. My doctor is literally a hero. My last post on this sub reddit will be more helpful to all my fellow POIS members. I even told him in a small summary on what we all suffer in common. Like for example, stomach problems. The little by little dosage of this medicine is truly helping me out. Now my doctor has recommended me joining the gym to get healthy and active to recover from all the abuse of this damn illness. I wish all of you the best and pray for all the members to be POIS free.
https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/if2ssc/on_the_way_to_recovery_thanks_to_my_brilliant/

This is "gastro resistant" prednisolone according to Google.

nanna1

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2020, 11:14:27 AM »
Wow, thanks berlin1984 for finding this thread. I didn't realize someone had already done these test.

Feedback to my current immunosuppression trial:

I have been taking 60mg Prednisololne (active metabolite of Prednisone) for 5 days. My condition worsened. Stronger pain in my abdominal area, stronger joint pain, stronger headaches, basically a stronger version of my usual POIS symptoms.

Currently I am tapering down the dosis at 40mg and my status seems to be improving.

In my specific case this seems to be a clear counter-indication in respect to an auto-immune process as the cause of my observed symptoms. If my symptoms were the result of an excessive auto-immune response, than this response should be subdued by the corticosteroid and I should have felt symptomatic relive.

The worsening of my symptoms however seems to suggest that in my case my immune system response (POIS symptoms) is actually targeted against an external cause. If indeed some external vector (bacteria, virus, etc) would be the cause of my usual symptoms, than it can be expected that during an immunosuppressed state this vector would be able to express itself stronger, thus me experiencing stronger symptoms.

My next steps will thus focus on rejecting my new most likely hypothesis, that I do carry some external vector, which is responsible for the immune response that I am experiencing and which might be the underlying cause for my POIS symptoms.

Personal to-do list for the next weeks:
- trying to reject Lyme borreliosis as a potential cause, making use of all available diagnostic methods
- non-specific/un-targeted antibiotic therapy to test if my POIS symptoms respond to an antibiotic regime...
...
I am writing to give you an update on my antibiotics treatment. It has now been eight weeks that I have been on a combined antibiotic regimen. The strongest effect is that the brain fog is gone within 48h of starting a Tetracycline treatment (I prefer Minocyclin to Doxicyclin). This is not the first time I have experienced this effect since I have tried Tetracyclines before. Also I did start to feel my normal energy level return, less lethargy, and generally feeling much better. However, I
I thus decided to continue and even increase the antibiotic treatment for another eight weeks. I am now on 2x100mg Minocyclin / day, 600mg Azithromyzin 3x a week, and just started 450mg Rifampicin / day. These antibiotics are from three different kinds of antibiotics classes (tetracyclines, macrolides, rifamycines) and are targeted at chronic extrapulmonal chlamydia pneumonia. The diagnosis is not yet proven but my latest lab results do provide further indirect evidence in support of this theory. I had an Elispot LTT test for Chlamydia pneumonia performed before taking the antibiotics and after 7 weeks. The LTT result was elevated before the antibiotics with a value of 6 (vs normal range <2). Following 7 weeks of antibiotics this value exploded to 39, potentially indicating an activation of lymphocytes carrying Chlamydia pneumonia antigens. In addition my CD57 NK cells (which were very low before) increased substantially. ALT is also slightly better, even though this hardcore antibiotics regimen is expected to have a rather detrimental effect on this value, since most them are metabolized by the liver. In summary, antibiotics in my case definitely have SOME (positive) effect, it could be just the anti-inflammatory effect (which would be temporary and of no use) but due to the way my body reacts and the intermittent worsening and stronger / shorter post-ejaculatory symptoms I would judge this highly unlikely. The most likely explanation according to my subjective experience (and my very objective ALT values) is a chronic bacterial infection with the current most likely culprit being Chlamydia pneumonia. The only way to establish a final diagnosis is to detect bacterial DNA with PCR. I will have my ejaculate tested with PCR for Chlamydia pneumonia as well as Chlamydia trachomatis in two weeks...
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

Journey

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  • INTP, 19 y.o. aware of POIS since 2019
Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2020, 11:58:56 AM »
When I was ill with neck pain, compulsive cough, mucus above lungs I had 1 NE, 2 Os 0 POIS, I felt warmer overall and I felt more bloodflow/stronger sensation in dick at bottom area as if something opened up, when I healed still 0POIS but O in healed state gave it back so had I not Oed I might have been POISfree until next O so it mean somehow POIS reaction got disabled, immune system stronger?

nanna1

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Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2020, 04:32:58 PM »
When I was ill with neck pain, compulsive cough, mucus above lungs I had 1 NE, 2 Os 0 POIS, I felt warmer overall and I felt more bloodflow/stronger sensation in dick at bottom area as if something opened up, when I healed still 0POIS but O in healed state gave it back so had I not Oed I might have been POISfree until next O so it mean somehow POIS reaction got disabled, immune system stronger?
Hi Journey, What was your illness from (infection, poison, etc...)? I ask because acute infections do boost the immune system. This immune boost is the reason vaccines work. I once took a flu vaccine just to see if I could get a general immune boost from it (not just for the flu)? Subjectively, I experienced some small rhinitis but overall I felt better even after orgasm. It took almost 2 weeks before I had these subjective experiences and only lasted for a week or two. So this could have been real or a placebo effect. It is not recommended to take multiple vaccines. So since the perceive relief from symptoms did not last long I did not investigate this any further. But what you describe in your case is interesting from an immunology stand point.
POIS clusters: 1,3,4,5,7
POIS criteria: 1,2,3,4,5
2 stacks that give me complete relief of POIS symptoms are listed here: POIS cure: theory & supplement stack
Find medical test: https://www.findlabtest.com/

Journey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • INTP, 19 y.o. aware of POIS since 2019
Re: Immunosuppression / Prednisolone
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2020, 01:46:59 AM »
When I was ill with neck pain, compulsive cough, mucus above lungs I had 1 NE, 2 Os 0 POIS, I felt warmer overall and I felt more bloodflow/stronger sensation in dick at bottom area as if something opened up, when I healed still 0POIS but O in healed state gave it back so had I not Oed I might have been POISfree until next O so it mean somehow POIS reaction got disabled, immune system stronger?
Hi Journey, What was your illness from (infection, poison, etc...)? I ask because acute infections do boost the immune system. This immune boost is the reason vaccines work. I once took a flu vaccine just to see if I could get a general immune boost from it (not just for the flu)? Subjectively, I experienced some small rhinitis but overall I felt better even after orgasm. It took almost 2 weeks before I had these subjective experiences and only lasted for a week or two. So this could have been real or a placebo effect. It is not recommended to take multiple vaccines. So since the perceive relief from symptoms did not last long I did not investigate this any further. But what you describe in your case is interesting from an immunology stand point.
Had low neck cover so winter weather got to it