Tetany

[mardi]

Hello everybody,

I’m writing here because I think that I discovered something important, but I could not find anything related to this in our forum.
I am suffering from POIS for years, with heavier and lighter moments. But in this period it’s getting heavier, so I thought to talk with a neurologist. She did not know anything about POIS, but she asked me to make an EMG test. I made it and the result was really interesting: latent tetany (or spasmophilia).
You can read something in the web about it: in few words, it is a neurological disorder that is caused by the lack of calcium absorption by the cells. The consequence is that there are spasm, shivers, prostration, brain fog… and a lot more of neurological problems.
Now, is this just a case? Is it a case that for a lot of people magnesium, calcium and D vitamin work? These are the products that are necessary to take to heal Tetany.
What if the problem would be that orgasm create a tetany attack? Has someone already thought about it?
Has somebody done a EMG test?

[Nas]

I know this just me asking stupid questions,
But what if POIS is a case of calcium deficiency?
I don't consume enough calcium personally; I don't have issues with bone health, so as I said, probably a stupid question.   

[b_jim]

I have tetany all the time and especially stronger after orgasm.
Magnesium and vitamin D help but taurine helps more.

The cause is not clear, but the causes you givae are good. Possible acethylcholine rush too.

[mardi]

I know this just me asking stupid questions,
But what if POIS is a case of calcium deficiency?
I don't consume enough calcium personally; I don't have issues with bone health, so as I said, probably a stupid question.

Dear Nas, thank you for your answer.
It is not a stupid question (stupid question do not exist, only stupid answers!). Infact, the lack of calcium in tetany is not correlated to the calcium that you see in common blood tests. The serum-calcium can be ok, but still not absorbed by the cells. The blood test to make to understand if it is correlated with tetany is the infra-cellular calcium. Unluckily this test is not very common, at least here in Italy.
I think that calcium has a really important function in POIS: maybe it is not the main reason, but for sure it has something in common with it. We should understand why calcium is not absorbed by cells, and if it is possible to fix that.

[mardi]

I have tetany all the time and especially stronger after orgasm.
Magnesium and vitamin D help but taurine helps more.

The cause is not clear, but the causes you givae are good. Possible acethylcholine rush too.

Dear Bjim,
could I ask you how you discovered that you have tetany?
could you write something more about taurine, how to assume it, how much and when? Or indicate some link?

Thank you

[Nas]

Hey Mardi,
Do you have your EMG test papers? If so would you please post them on this thread: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0
Thank you.

[b_jim]

I have tetany all the time and especially stronger after orgasm.
Magnesium and vitamin D help but taurine helps more.

The cause is not clear, but the causes you givae are good. Possible acethylcholine rush too.

Dear Bjim,
could I ask you how you discovered that you have tetany?
could you write something more about taurine, how to assume it, how much and when? Or indicate some link?

Thank you

Simply my eyelides start to tremors and then all my muscles.
I recommand to test 500mg during two weeks to see improvement or not. Brand seems not important.

[Muon]

Never seen this thread before. Yes Taurine helps a bit for me as well. Dumping this here. Just another symptom in some POISers?

Food for thought:

Suppression of cytokine release post O instead of cytokine storms? Cytokine release need intracellular calcium. These numbers are falling and could indicate a decrease in intracellular calcium levels:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.msg32239#msg32239

Testosterone can actually increase intracellular calcium in various cells. TRT may stabilize IC calcium levels:

Testosterone Stimulates Intracellular Calcium Release and Mitogen-Activated Protein Kinases Via a G Protein-Coupled Receptor in Skeletal Muscle Cells

Testosterone induces Ca2+ influx via non-genomic surface receptors in activated T cells

Also my wavy muscle fasciculations/spasms post O might be a sign of lower IC calcium levels in muscle cells. Build up of pressure in my lower back post O could be an indication of problems with polarization (can lead to 1 contraction of 1 entire leg and pressure drops immediately).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_channel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_signaling

"Testosterone has a suppressive effect on immune responses and increases susceptibility to many infectious diseases [38]" Ref
TRT is beneficial in some POISers, would one not expect the opposite if we are dealing with an infection?

Do corticosteroids affect IC calcium levels?

Hey muon,

I have been convinced for a long time that the problem of POIS is directly connected to the so-called spasmophilic (or latent tetany). I have done the EMG (electromyography) 3 times and every time I have had a positive result. Now, spasmophilia has symptoms that are very similar (if not the same) to those of POIS: tiredness, brain fog, fasciculations, eye problems, digestive problems, nausea.

Here you will find an exhaustive description of it (the wikipedia page in english is quite poor. Better in italian or in french): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetany
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetania
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tétanie

 In short, spasmophilia is characterized by a lack of absorption of calcium at the cellular level, resulting in neurological symptoms.
I believe that orgasm causes a spasmophilia attack in us.
I would be curious to know how many in this forum have undergone EMG and got a positive result. Or at least who have tried the signs of Chvostek and Trousseau

Heat is another trigger for me. not sure how this affects intracellular calcium concentrations aside from sweating and perhaps MCA, however temperature-gated ion channels exist. Do mast cells/hormones interact with calcium channels? Mutation in calcium channels? Bluesbrother's TNF-alpha also goes down post O. Measuring [Ca²⁺]_i is an option.

Calcium signaling in immune cells

L-type Ca2+ channels: A new player in the regulation of Ca2+ signaling, cell activation and cell survival in immune cells

I've never seen people with extracellular calcium deficiency, in fact, I've seen people with an excess. Does a decrease of [Ca²⁺]_i induce a slight rise in extracellular calcium? I wonder what happens when you measure serum calcium prior and post O. Btw I also found a paper where premature ejaculation patients got lower seminal plasma magnesium but normal serum magnesium levels, it can be found in the POIS paper thread.

[Journey]

Why O give it? Why I had 0 POIS when I had flu? In POIS I feel as muscles are tighter.

[Muon]

Here is the paper I was talking about, not entirely related to this thread but they discuss calcium levels as well. The mean seminal plasma magnesium level of the control group can be used as reference:

Seminal plasma magnesium and premature ejaculation: a case-control study

"Seminal plasma magnesium levels (>70 mg/L) are much higher than in serum (17–24 mg/L)".

Edit: more stuff, tetany, cellular Mg, temperature, exercise:

New experimental and clinical data on the relationship between magnesium and sport

Exercise, magnesium and immune function

Another edit: To think of it, POIS and other symptoms worsened in a period when I ramped up frequency of exercise. Could be a coincidence.

[Muon]

Voltage-gated sodium channels are being regulated by calcium as well, could be a sign his cellular calcium/sodium concentration going down in POIS or their ratios are changing:

Effective treatment (reducing symptoms in POIS):
- calcium (number one) - eliminates problems with legs pains, makes positive mood, improves mental problems, makes my voice lower, helps to regain balance disturbed by taking other supplements; not good for my stomach,of course too much calcium is not good for heart and kidneys so when I`m not in POIS I don`t take it everyday
- water with salt (I was shocked when I discovered that salty things make me better); sometimes (rare situation) after eating banana (potas) I have pain in chest (not strong) and arrhythmia; then I drink water with salt and then is ok

Or generation of antibodies against calcium channels or something just get stuck in those channels not antibody related.

"interpretation of measurcd Mg levels is difficult. Serum levels are the easiest to obtain but provide the least reliable index, since less than 1% of the total body Mg is in the serum"
Might Patients with the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Have Latent Tetany of Magnesium Deficiency

[b_jim]

Excellent job.
Calcium + NaCl.
Strange.

It makes me think 2 things :

- Guys using pepto-bismuth as anti-Pois meds
- After hard works I feel depressed. I put Nacl in my water + Vitamine C. Last days symtoms of gastritis seems to came back.


Chlorid ion helps to serotonin move by platelets in bloodstream.
When temperature is hot, you lose some water when working hard. Nacl an other minerals are lost in sudation.

[Muon]

The change in net calcium flux through cell membranes triggered by POIS could be PLA2 dependent. PLA2/AA could be released at the cel membrane as a byproduct. That's why steroids (PLA2 inhibitor) and NSAIDS (AA/COX) may work for some people. Perhaps some obscure intracellular messaging is involved.

[Muon]

Decreased intracellular calcium stimulates renin release via calcium-inhibitable adenylyl cyclase

Can lead to cardiovascular problems, blood volume regulation etc. POIS --> intra Ca goes down --> Renin spikes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renin

[Muon]

Muon:

"Do you have premature ejaculation?"

Yes

Mardi you could try measuring magnesium in your seminal plasma as stated in the paper I have posted earlier.

[mardi]

Mardi you could try measuring magnesium in your seminal plasma as stated in the paper I have posted earlier.
[/quote]

Hey Muon, I would gladly do it, but I don't know where and how to do this analysis. I don't think my doctor would be willing to prescribe it for me. I should look for a private facility that does this.

[Muon]

A few years ago, the anguish resulting from my first big POIS crises also used to provoke such a crisis of tetany, until I get used to it and began to hear about POIS.
Strangely enough, it has also happened that spasmophilia / anxiety attacks provoked by other triggers than sex/POIS, while I was already in a POIS state, would suppress all my symptoms, as if there had been a complete reboot in my body at the end of the attack.

I have POIS for about 15 years. 4 years ago the symptoms worsened strongly, so I decided to investigate further, and after consulting several doctors and after having done several tests, I took the EMG test, three times. All three times the result was positive. Diagnosis: latent normocalcemic tetany (aka normocalcemic spasmophilia). Symptoms: fasciculations, exhaustion, brain fog, dry skin, stomach upset, red eyes, chvostek sign. The same symptoms I have after orgasm.

Hi again Mardi! I'm sorry to hear that you have been dealing with POIS for 15 years. I have fasciculations (not often), muscle pain/weakness/spasms, exhaustion, brain fog, and anxiety that would suggest I have something like spasmophilia. My calcium, magnesium, and TSH levels are good; I have tested for each one at least two times. It would be interesting for me to hear how Vit. D deficiency was possibly connected to some of ours symptoms or even something like mineral absorption.

I've been feeling very good for a long time lately, the pre-orgasm prepacks have worked beautifully. But yesterday I ate 2 sour mandarins. This was followed by symptoms such as tetany (jumping muscles, body pain) and POIS (brain fog, mood drop, anxiety). It was not so bad for a long time. I had to take prepack and calcium several times (50% improvement). Only today taking a multivitamin helped so much that now (after 30 hours) I'm 98% ok. Do you think that vitamin C in mandarins caused these symptoms? I had long suspected citrus as a symptom trigger as with POIS, but now I'm pretty sure. In addition to mandarins, I also had tofu in a sprout salad, but I suspect mandarins are the cause.

[Muon]

- calcium (number one) - eliminates problems with legs pains, makes positive mood, improves mental problems, makes my voice lower, helps to regain balance disturbed by taking other supplements; not good for my stomach,of course too much calcium is not good for heart and kidneys so when I`m not in POIS I don`t take it everyday

"Calcium plays a large role in the inhibition of enzymes that produce PAF in the denovo pathway of PAF biosynthesis."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platelet-activating_factor

Caffeine
Low concentrations of caffeine raise intracellular calcium concentration only in the presence of extracellular calcium in cultured molluscan neurons