Author Topic: Supplement infographic - Is it worth it?  (Read 4365 times)

Nightingale

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Supplement infographic - Is it worth it?
« on: August 22, 2012, 03:02:46 PM »
Edit: [WARNING] The graphic in this post is at best over-simplified and at worst just plain wrong.  Read the discussion below, and proceed with caution

I just saw this infographic on if particular substances are worth it for particular effects.  Very interesting and useful illustration http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplements/
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 03:54:58 PM by Nightingale »
Turmeric and Rosemary 30-45 minutes before orgasm for anti-inflammatory and immune support has helped me a lot. Faster and easier than niacin approach.

kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type
Re: Supplement infographic - Is it worth it?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 05:21:41 PM »
I just saw this infographic on if particular substances are worth it for particular effects.  Very interesting and useful illustration http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplements/

OK so I think this is poor science & I spend a lot of time doing data analytics. Stuff like this irks me. My comments are not directed at you Nightingale, just at this kind of statistical analysis which I put firmly in the category of "marketing". This doesn't mean it's poor statistics but I worked with a brilliant statistician for many years and he would be deeply unimpressed with conclusions so whimsical.

1) The title of the graph is unscientific and is deliberately provocative.
It makes about as much sense as asking whether eating a balanced diet is "snake oil"?

2) I've read studies on some of the substances they've decided are snake oil myself that show chemical markers of their action BUT

3) When something is hyped then it leads to lots of additional research to determine if all kinds of efficacy claims are true
which actually leads to more negative results. The reason being that efficacy claims are subject to
a) placebo effects where people claim they've been cured of something they may not even have had and
b) determining dosages and quality of supplements is quite difficult. By the time a drug has gone to market there has been huge research into the effective dosage and treatment duration AND
c) tests of pharmaceutical drugs are done with knowledge of interactions whereas the same is rarely the case with supplements.
 
This is why something like vitamin C gets a bad rap. So many non-specific claims at indeterminate dosages that it's more likely a study will fail than succeed. Despite decades of pharmaceutical research failing to produce a cancer cure, Vitamin C fails on the wrong side of the tracks because it doesn't cure cancer. Same with ginkgo and alzheimers.

One reason why is that if you do a test of a Drug X from Y Corp :) which is purported to alleviate some aspect of dementia, there is no way the researchers would use anything less than the stated clinical dosage of the drug. If they did and found less efficacy then Y Corp would immediately come out and rubbish the results. Your professor and dean would get a letter from Y Corp and you'd know not to be such a dumb ass in the future :P In reality, your Uni department needs Y Corp's endowment and it's astonishing you were even taken on as a student when you're so "unwise". Cynical perhaps!

This is by no means a bashing of big pharma. They do an important job and do it well. But they really really do not like the idea that ingesting large amounts of a cheap supplement would do away with billions of dollars of blockbuster drug revenue. Anecdotally, if POIS sufferers were used to study the efficacy of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medication to treat their anxiety disease (POIS) then we'd conclude that anti-depressants were pretty useless and were snake oil :D

If you take a capsule of spirulina every morning expecting it to cure cancer then prepare to be disappointed but if you take it to increase the levels of tyrosine in your system then that's reasonable.

kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type
Re: Supplement infographic - Is it worth it?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 05:37:55 PM »
Sorry for the grumpy response. Evangelical skepticism is a pet hate of mine. As I said before, I'm not a chemist but I do work as a scientific "peer reviewer" and I can honestly say I've seen papers published with results that I thought were nonsense and others rejected with results that were better justified for fickle reasons that weren't all that scientific.

If I had to give an answer why, it's that we've decided that more people should have PhD's and there are more research programmes than ever before with more journals and conferences to cope with the publication output. This puts pressure on people to stand out and you can't do that with inconclusive results. So the paper that says "herb X may or may not work" is unlikely to be deemed to "contain a valuable contribution" whereas a more speculative "herb X does not work as (small print) it doesn't raise substance Y under condition Z" is more likely to scratch the journal's itch. So a neutral sentiment is no good whereas a positive or negative sentiment gets you a tier 1 journal publication. Such is life.

This has nothing to do with POIS so I'll stop now :)

Nightingale

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
Re: Supplement infographic - Is it worth it?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2012, 03:52:48 PM »
Sorry for the grumpy response. Evangelical skepticism is a pet hate of mine. As I said before, I'm not a chemist but I do work as a scientific "peer reviewer" and I can honestly say I've seen papers published with results that I thought were nonsense and others rejected with results that were better justified for fickle reasons that weren't all that scientific.

Holy crap, no wonder!  I'm in no way upset that you called this website/graphic out, if it's bogus I don't want to follow it either.  I have a few friends from college who spend a lot of time in the research and publication fields who share equally as passionate views as you have about pseudo-science and pseudo-research.  Researchers DO market their studies to the detriment of facts.

No offence taken.  I'm going to leave this post up but modify it with my new opinion on it as an example of how easy it is to get bad info!
Turmeric and Rosemary 30-45 minutes before orgasm for anti-inflammatory and immune support has helped me a lot. Faster and easier than niacin approach.

kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • Scientist, Engineer, INTJ type
Re: Supplement infographic - Is it worth it?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2012, 06:06:59 PM »
Sorry for the grumpy response. Evangelical skepticism is a pet hate of mine. As I said before, I'm not a chemist but I do work as a scientific "peer reviewer" and I can honestly say I've seen papers published with results that I thought were nonsense and others rejected with results that were better justified for fickle reasons that weren't all that scientific.

Holy crap, no wonder!  I'm in no way upset that you called this website/graphic out, if it's bogus I don't want to follow it either.  I have a few friends from college who spend a lot of time in the research and publication fields who share equally as passionate views as you have about pseudo-science and pseudo-research.  Researchers DO market their studies to the detriment of facts.

No offence taken.  I'm going to leave this post up but modify it with my new opinion on it as an example of how easy it is to get bad info!

I suppose I might have overstated it but I think there are a range of herbs and supplements that are getting a really bad rap as 1) people are reporting placebo effects that can't be laboratory tested and 2) the dosages are very difficult to determine for the real effects.
The only important research as far as I'm concerned is research that shows whether there's a real chemical effect of ingesting a supplement in vitro and in vivo (probably an animal rather than human study). The larger medical studies that seek to determine whether a supplement cures a specific illness are the ones which are very difficult to judge because the questions of dosage, duration, interactions and the severity of the patient's illness all need to be given very careful consideration.

So I believe that the phrase "snake oil" is emotive, unjustifiably broad in its implications and has no place in any serious scientific publication.