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I would also like to know how metabolism/energy production and use comes into play for both a lower than average heart rate as well as POIS. I think POIS has some connection with chronic fatigue syndrome, which many treat as an energy production and usage issue. This would be the next thing I have on my "wish list" for studies of POIS. I have found some "tricks" that make me feel more lively and improve my athletic performance, and they either involve well timed intake of fast absorbing carbohydrates or herbs that are thought to impede the formation of or catalyze fat (garcinia cambogia. An aside, I had a week of feeling full of energy on garcinia before I developed side effects from its serotonergic influence)
Could you speak more about your hyper-cholinergic metabolism Quantum? I have come across some talk of choline being a treatment for issues related to methylation.
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Hi Nightingale,
When i use the term "cholinergic", I means "Of, pertaining to, activated by, producing or having the same function as acetylcholine" (
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cholinergic ). In a broader sense, as acetylcholine is the main neurotransmitter used by the parasympathetic branch of the autonomous nervous system, when something is called "cholinergic", it means that it goes in the direction of parasympathetic activity, like vagal tone (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagal_tone ), which could be as well be called parasympathetic tone.
When I say that I have a "hyper-cholinergic" metabolism and neurological setting, that means that I have plenty - if not tons - of acetylcholine produced in my body and brain, and that my vagal nerve and parasympthetic system as a whole is easily geared up. Too much parasympathetic effects translate in bodily manifestations like slow heart rhythm (bradychardia), low blood pressure, diarrhea or digestive spasms, gastric acidity, bronchochonstriction, lost of saliva production as well as nasal, sinusal ans intestinal mucous ( to the point that nutrient absorption can be impaired, too much mental processing ( OCD, control freak, binge of intellectual activities like reading, searching, writing, computing, video gaming, easy triggering of vertigo and neausea when head is moving/spinning, near fainting or lightheadness following intense exercise not uncommon as well. I had that since birth, so not realted to POIS. During all of my childhood, for example, i had non-stop sinusitis because of my hyper reactive mucosa, producing an astonishing quantity of mucous ( I with I knew then what I know now, I could have spear me countless antibiotics treatment.
Of course, there is a link between having too much parasympathetic tone and lacking physical energy. Sports and exercise is about having a good sympathetic tone (adrenaline and cortisol are the big player on this team). he sympathetic system is the other par of the autonomous system, and is the antagonist of the parasympathetic (for those not familiar with this, let's say in a very simplified way that the sympathetic is the gas pedal, and that the parasympathetic is the break pedal). Easy to say, I was very bad at sports when I was young, and would get out of breat very easily - always chosen last when teams where created in the schoolyard. But would have been the captain of any intellectual contest - nerds are very cholinergic, and do not have much adrenergic tone...hahaha....
Then enters POIS in that cholinergic landscape. Fatigue is certainly one of the hallmark symptoms of POIS, although it may be possible, according to my opinion of whah POIS is, that someone only has allergy and flu-like symptoms, and not having his brain affected (no cognitive and/or emotional symptoms, what I call cluster 3, niacin-related, and 4, serotonin related symtoms). I don't know yet if each and every POISer has fatigue in his symptom list, I did not read the list of symptoms of every members, not yet, anyway...hehe... so I did not see yet all the possible POIS configurations. (BTW, I remember having come across a thread with like twenty or so members sharing in details their POIS "case", if anyone knows where this thread is, please send me the link, i am not able to retrieve it at the moment). Anyway, extreme fatigue, to the point that work capacity and social interactions are compromized, are fairly common POIS symptoms.
Now, for sure, I don't want to force anything on anybody, and I know there must have been so many theories about POIS - and so many disappointment as well. So, for anybody reading what follows, take what fits for you, and let go of the rest. To the best of my current knowledge, here is my hypothesis of what POIS is. POIS is. POIS looks to me as a hypersensitivity reaction of type I and/or IV causing clusters of symptoms on their own (allergy, and flu-like), but moreover, this inappropriate and massive production of pro-inflammatory immune messengers is also responsible for the upregulation of an enzyme (IDO), causing a major disturbance in tryptophan (Trp) metabolism, which result in the peripheral and/or central nervous system depletion of niacin and/or serotonin. Other aggravating factors come in play as well, like impaired absorption in the guts ( IBS, SIBO, etc.. further limiting available Trp ), high vagal tone like discussed here (intensifying some POIS symptoms), low testosterone and/or progesterone levels (they both inhibits prostaglandins and refrain the over-reaction of the immune system), and some other co-morbidity as well, and other factors worsening POIS like aspartame intake (like I said in antoher thread, I am in the process of collecting all of them aggracating factors in a chart).
Fatigue is a symptom of both lack of niacin and lack of serotonin in the brain. Serous lack of serotonin n the brain leads to depression and extreme lack of motivation, so its pretty obvious you won't jump on the football field. LAck of niacin also cause fatigue. High energy requirements (brain) or high turnover rate (gut, skin) organs are usually the most susceptible to niacin deficiency, so the disease called pellagra, a niacin deficiency, causes, among other things, an encephalopathy, menaing the brain stops to work properly. You cannot have a brain fog, impaired coordination and lessened reflexes, and give a good performance on the track or in the court ! So, then, imagine someone having both of niacin and serotonin lows at the same time, and I bet your coach will bench you after 5 mins for the rest of the game, if he let you play at all !
If, on top of that, you have a tendency for a strong vagal tone, hypotension and cold sweat, slow heartbeat, vasodilatation, everything in your system is gonna make it so hard to exercise, and in POIS days, it would be harder still, becaue of additive effects. And, as I am becoming aware in the last 3 weeks, it seems that, in least in my case, there have been a low-noise, chronic POIS taking a toll on my stamina every single day, independent from any sexual activity. So, even of no O in one month, I was slowed down and fatigue would come faster. when exercising, and I have always been slow-recovering after sports. Now I knw of this chronic energy stealer because since I have implemented some changes, based on all I have learned through this forum, I have so much more stamina, and I need 1 hour less sleep a day, some days 1 1/2 to 2 hours less. I have always needed 8 1/2 to 9 hours of sleep to be very active and functional, that is, obviously, on non-POIS days (no stamina or anything like "active on POIS day!). Seven hours was a strict minimum to be able to survive a day at work, and be sure I woudn't send anybody at the hospital because I would have made an error in dispensing a drug or failed to identify a important pharmacological interaction ( I am pharmacist). This last week, I went to work a few days ago with 5 1/2 to 6 hours of sleep....which have been impossible just 3 weeks ago. So, fatigue its loosing its grip on me
Like I wrote elsewhere on the forum, I have increased my tryptophan intake, used strategy to make it cross the blood brain barrier so it makes it into the brain (glycemic load, IDO inhibitors), and have developped a "Pre-O pack" supplementation that help protect my brain serotonin from the hypersensitivity reactions occurring just after O. I also saw that many supplements I have found as helping, throughout my 36 years of searching for relief, where indeed good in one or both of these therapeutic goals (examples: taking magnesium, omega-3 and vitamine D).
About choline, which is a precursor of acetylcholine, it would surely not work for me. Note that not all POISers have a cholinergic dominance. But for me, adding more vagal tone to an already strong vagal tone will worsen things. If you thing you have a strong vagal tone too, Nightingale, I think choline is not for you. You will be better to take anticholinergic substances -those that lowers the vagal tone. My favorite anticholinergic is ginger. If you are too cholinergic, ginger is your friend. In my case, I am often so cholinergic that I get tinnitus. Ginger helps with that as well. Natural Gravol are capsules of ginger. Standard Gravol (dimenhydrinate) is too strong to be useful for me, causes much unwanted drowsiness, not good for work neither for sport. Adding magnesium to ginger is good for relaxing the mind, when it gets too active. Also, taking sympathomimetics help counterbalance a high vagal tone. I prefer natural ones, like capsaicine (in pepper, chili,, jalapenos,...), tyramine, anti-oxydants ( dark chocolate, vitamine C, pycnogenol, vit E, rosemary, curcumin, ....). I don't like caffeine (too much for my anxiety). I don't like pseudoephedrine neither. And I stay away as much as possible of what is too strong (read "prescription drugs").
Ok, sorry for the long post again, but in a way, putting it in words help me to clarify all this for myself.
I hope this will help some members getting more energy,
Quantum
