Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (P.O.I.S.)

POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => General Alternative Causes and Treatments of POIS => Topic started by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 11:20:08 AM

Title: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 11:20:08 AM
This theory already has some backing here:https://sites.google.com/site/poiswebsite/test-page/orgasm-induced-catecholamine-imbalance-via-pituitary-dysfunction
Ive got a theory here, that might explain alot of symptoms of POIS, and why niacin/continual vitamin b complex supplmentation is working for alot of us. To make it short, POIS could be a debilitating reaction to a massive adrenaline surge during orgasm. This reaction can last for DAYS, yes days. Hyperadrenergic disrorders are different from just plain stress/anxiety, in that it really is an overload of pure adrenaline coursing through your veins that can be caused by orgasm, eating, running, etc. Many patients who have hyperadrenergic POTS, report that it can sometimes take days to recover from an adrenaline surge episode, and the symtpoms include dizziness, brain fog, muscle pain, palpitations, dry mouth, digestive problems....

And guess what vitamin b3 has been shown to be really good for??? thats right, adrenaline surges... Look at this quote, "Accordingly, they decided to use high doses of niacin, another natural methyl acceptor, to reduce the conversion rate of noradrenaline to adrenaline and then to adrenochrome. Double-blind controlled experiments conducted on acute schizophrenics with high doses of niacin (usually 3 to 6 g daily) were very successful, outperforming the then conventional treatments and reducing suicide rates.26 Niacin can lower the body's production of adrenochrome and its derivatives."-Dr. Abram Hoffer, MD, FRCP (C) and Dr. Harold D. Foster, PhD, Feel Better, Live Longer with Vitamin B-3

As to how Niacin could be specifically working for this problem: Niacin is a known methylacceptor(it grabs and steals methyl groups). Adrenaline is made from norepinephrine by the addiion of a methyl group. Therefore the niacin protection could be clocking the conversion of norepinephrine to adrenaline, protecting people from the adrenaline surge, and also probably preventing a relative defieincy in noreinephirine( a neutotransmittor heavily involved with depression, lack of concentration, brain fog, etc, if there is a lack of it).

In sum, the vast majority of us could be dealing with a hyperadrenaline episode during orgasm, which can last for days, and which would make a lot of sense as to why niacin works for up to several hours(its blocking the massive adrenaline surge). To those who are not helped by niacin/b complex.... it very well could be an allergic response, or something else entirely...OR you could have a hyperadrenaline disorder which gets triggers NOT ONLY by orgasm, but by eating, sleeeping, exercising etc, hence the constant POIS.

Just food for thought on the issue :)
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 11:29:50 AM
As an addendum: look at this link for the symptoms of something called POTS(a condition characterized by rapid heart beat due to adrenaline problems)- http://potsweb.50webs.com/

Symptoms include: flu-like feeling, fatigue, palpitations, digestive problems, feeling of pressure behind the eyes, aching muscles, urinate frequently..... the list goes on and on...

I also want to add, that this theory does not have to contradict the allergy theory. It very well could be that the activation of mast cells by semen in the urethra triggers a hyperadrenal episode, and that the most debilitating symptoms of POIS come from the fatigue of an adrenal episode AND a temporary defiency in Norepinephrine, while the nasal congestion, red eyes, and sneezing come from the pure allergy component of the problem.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: demografx on August 14, 2012, 12:12:40 PM
Testosterone has helped several of us. Does this treatment fit your adrenaline surge theory? Thanks.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 12:16:41 PM
Look at this article on rat hearts, testosterone inhibits the release of norepinephrine into rat hearts, meaning it prevents it from reaching the heart where it eventually converts to adrenaline causing the surge: http://www.unboundmedicine.com/medline/ebm/record/22282243/abstract/Effects_of_testosterone_on_norepinephrine_release_in_isolated_rat_heart_

Also this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6684059

Testosterone makes u pee out norepinephrine(by making the kidneys build it up and excrete it), preventing the surge because norepinephrine is the precuroser to adrenaline: http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/32/5/880.full
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 12:39:52 PM
This theory explains why niacin works(prevents the conversion of norepinephrine to adrenaline), why testosterone works(it has been shown to block the adrenaline precursor,norepinephrine, release from cells along with making you pee out adrenalines precursor). It also explains why antidepressants/high protein have worked for some, it could be replinishing the neurotransmittor precursors to adrenaline, that are heavily depleted after the orgasm surge. Also this explains why a low glycemic diet works for some.... adrenaline and cortisol play a massive role in hypoglycemia, indeed, some of the terrbile symptoms from a hypoglycemic episode come from the massive adrenaline surge. Combine someones hypoglycemia with the rigours of an orgasm, and u could easily have terrible symptoms.

In effect, we could have something going on here very similar to  hyperadrenergic POTS(postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome) except that instead of getting a massive norepinephrine release into our blood (which converts to adrenaline) upon standing...... we get it upon orgasm.

Theoretically beta blockers before orgasm should do the same thing as niacin, so it can be tested in this theory. BUT, niacin prevents conversion of norepinephrine to adrenaline, while beta blockers just blockadrenaline after its made. So niacin could be preventing adrenaline surges+ preventing adrenaline precursor neurotransmittor deficiencies, while beta blockers would only prevent the surge.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: demografx on August 14, 2012, 01:26:31 PM
Fascinating!
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 01:39:16 PM
Guess what was abnormally high on habibous blood test several threads down? Noradrenaline!  Let's see what daveman thinks
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: poisioq on August 14, 2012, 02:15:21 PM
in the last years only once I've been pois free after an O.
it was when i was forced to eat almost nothing for weeks because of an acute gastrointestinal problem.
could your theory explain also that?
because of that i'm lately thinking that the cause could be some hidden methabolic disorder, even if my blood tests are always ok
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 02:27:16 PM
My guess would be that during that tIme period u regulated ur blood sugars with ur eating habits this regulation prevented an adrenaline surge during orgasm
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 02:33:00 PM
Let me state again I think this issue is comPlex I think this is a adrenaline surge and allergy problem not just one or the other. The adrenaline surge explains the most horrible symptOms which last from 1-4 days. The mast cell allergy cascade would account for the symptoms which last much longer: nasal congestion itchy eyes muscle pain. And in regards to the muscle pain I'm in the process of experimenting with quercetin a known mast cell inhibitor. This should stop the allergic symptoms although it seems niacin does too. It seems niacin helps stoP allergy cascades through pgd2 release and it stops adrenaline surges with its methyl group grabbing.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: poisioq on August 14, 2012, 02:55:24 PM
My guess would be that during that tIme period u regulated ur blood sugars with ur eating habits this regulation prevented an adrenaline surge during orgasm

ok thanks.
but how the blood sugars are related to adrenaline?
since then I am following a diet very low in sugars, but it cannot really be stricter than this, i am under weight. and this diet is not helping me with my POIS. even if i am one of the most lucky here because my symptoms last only one day
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Observer on August 14, 2012, 03:56:41 PM
Let me state again I think this issue is comPlex I think this is a adrenaline surge and allergy problem not just one or the other. The adrenaline surge explains the most horrible symptOms which last from 1-4 days. The mast cell allergy cascade would account for the symptoms which last much longer: nasal congestion itchy eyes muscle pain. And in regards to the muscle pain I'm in the process of experimenting with quercetin a known mast cell inhibitor. This should stop the allergic symptoms although it seems niacin does too. It seems niacin helps stoP allergy cascades through pgd2 release and it stops adrenaline surges with its methyl group grabbing.

Wow haidcat, I like your reasoning. You know, the months before i got POIS I bet that I was getting massive surge of adrenaline constantly(due to emotional responses to an external event - I really liked a girl, so every time I saw her my heart rate spiked, and I produced a lot of adrenaline  ;)) Then something bad happened between us and I crashed, literally. I stopped to have these massive adrenaline surges and I began to feel lethargic,with cloudy thinking,etc. Then, my POIS appeared(at 18)... I got the same HORRIBLE symptoms until I discovered this forum, when I began my own "research" -mostly helped by peoples experiences here. And niacin works wonders on me. 180 mg of pure Niacin means NO POIS. And I do not need to take anything more after or before the Orgasm.

I do not know if my personal experience fits in your theory. The emotional hit that i received from this experience was a hurricane in the following years. I do not know where I would be right now if it were not for this forum and its people.  :)
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: borgir226 on August 14, 2012, 04:58:03 PM
Haidcat, I had to chime in even though I wasn't registered! Anyway - you're the man! Many people don't realize that the POIS feeling is from a large part a feeling of an constant adrenaline rush without the possibility to calm down. That's why tranquilizers like Xanax seems to take a big portion of the negative feelings away. Anyway I suspect the beta-blockers (or alpha beta combined) won't help much as they would not really affect enough of the various epinephrine receptors throughout the body. I have some experience with them and yeah, Niacin was much much better.

And don't forget this - Adrenaline (Epinephrine) is a huge histamine blocker/eliminator. This could explain the runny nose and other phantom allergy symptoms.

Another piece to the puzzle! Now to find the source of all of this chaos.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 14, 2012, 05:20:15 PM
I really think we might be getting somewhere with this! I suspect the source of all this could be several different things coming together: anxiety disorders, allergic response to semen, and possible hypoglycemia. Anxiety, allergies, and hypoglycemia all release the stress hormones cortisol and adrenaline..... If all/some these issues are at play POIS symptoms will very easily occur. It will be similar to the fatigue every man experiences after orgasm but on steroids(our bodies are already in a weakened state and orgasm just pushes us to the edge). Since it seems this issue involves both endocrine and allergy issues, its no wonder there is a broad category of solutions to this issue. Because of the great research of others we know that niacin potentially has anti-allergy properties through prostaglandin and serotonin releases, and with the potential find that niacin blocks conversion to adrenaline, it seems we might be closer to what exactly is going on here.

I would say the basics of it is this: half of the people on here have some sort of adrenal issue either stemming from anxiety disorders or bad diet/hypoglycemia and half the people on here get an adrenal response from their body try to attack their sperm in an allergic manner. Both problems lead to adrenal surges and the subsequent fatigue.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: jivetalk on August 14, 2012, 07:10:45 PM
Haidcat,

This is potentially Huge! Love your Theory, love to hear this thrashed out over the coming weeks on here!

"usually 3 to 6 g daily", Wow I wonder if this could potentially help our POIS also. Daily doses are definitely better than timing it. I wonder if they are referring to Nicotinic Acid or Niacidimide etc....

JT
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Daveman on August 14, 2012, 10:24:07 PM
Guess what was abnormally high on habibous blood test several threads down? Noradrenaline!  Let's see what daveman thinks

Wish I was enough of an expert to say. But it does sound super interesting.

Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: kurtosis on August 15, 2012, 04:44:25 AM
My guess would be that during that tIme period u regulated ur blood sugars with ur eating habits this regulation prevented an adrenaline surge during orgasm

ok thanks.
but how the blood sugars are related to adrenaline?
since then I am following a diet very low in sugars, but it cannot really be stricter than this, i am under weight. and this diet is not helping me with my POIS. even if i am one of the most lucky here because my symptoms last only one day

They're related. ACTH is produced by the anterior pituitary gland in response to stress. This stimulates the production of adrenaline and also cortisol which is produced in the adrenal gland. Cortisol is part of glucose homeostasis (keeping the levels balanced) produced when there's a low blood sugar (sometimes called a "fasted state" ) to increase/maintain glucose levels in the blood. This is done via gluconeogenesis and involves the liver generating glucose from non-carbohydrate sources (i.e. not using sugars). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis
A diet which is too low in sugars might convince your body it needs to generate more cortisol.

This is fine unless you already have some condition which leads to above average cortisol levels. It's not your body's fault. It's trying to do the "create cortisol to get more glucose" trick and it doesn't know you already have too much. This is one of the problems of homeostatic reactions. They can go badly wrong, your body tries to balance the chemicals in the reaction at the wrong level and while you still function, you get sick.

Generally, it's a chicken and egg thing. If you have an allergy / auto-immune disorder then the increase in cortisol will itself cause you immunological problems. Which is to blame for the severity of POIS symptoms? I don't know. One sure thing is that over time, symptoms would get worse without treatment.

There's also the problem that there can be a psychosomatic response to various psychological stressors that would cause ACTH release. Therefore an ACTH cause for POIS is something that worries me, ironically. Ways of calming the brain during over-stimulation by epinephrine could include raising GABA levels using supplements like taurine. There are prescription drugs also. It's been popular to prescribe valium in the past but this is not a path I'd go down. There are many many things I'd rather take than valium as it's addictive with some nasty side effects and horrible withdrawal symptoms. Another possibility is to target the hypothetical immune reaction causing the adrenalergic response  (purely a theory) which would reduce the production of ACTH.

I'm sure cortisol is part of the symptoms we're suffering but I'm not sure whether it's the primary cause. I've asked people a few times about pituitary disorders and anybody who has been tested seems to say they're fine. Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here :D

I also noticed that Habbibou was short in vitamin D. The body can make it's own vitamin D (using ultra violet light) and one of the ingredients in this reaction is cholesterol. This is also used to make cortisol. So when you're under stress you show low vitamin D levels. vitamin D supplementation is one thing that can help manage stress. fish oils are good for this. Cod liver oil would probably be the best.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Daveman on August 15, 2012, 06:27:20 AM
Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here :D


It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names!  :)

Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: fidalgo on August 15, 2012, 08:49:36 AM
Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here :D


It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names!  :)



Fantastic idea. It?s a small cientific research... I want to help and participate in this...
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Daveman on August 15, 2012, 09:27:51 AM
OK, let's get a few more that are willing and maybe we can start something!
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: kurtosis on August 15, 2012, 09:49:29 AM
Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here :D


It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names!  :)



It seems my initials fit ;)
Something I'm also wondering about is whether phenotype DNA testing such as that done on 23andme would reveal anything. I haven't had it done but I'm thinking about it. My concern would be, what if I had a metabolic disorder that was easily diagnosed with such a test but was difficult to determine otherwise.
Should probably send them an email!
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: haidcat on August 15, 2012, 10:06:56 AM
Relation of histamine to noraderanline and adrenaline.....  A little past the middle of the page: http://nobleboss.awardspace.com/mednotes/pharmanotes/chapter_set4/hist_antihist.htm

"After administration of Histamine, it binds with the H1 receptors present in the arterioles and precapillary sphincters and causes vasodilatation. So, there is ↓PR and ↓BP. After sometimes the BP comes to normal as Histamine is metabolized and also diluted by the body fluid. There is a secondary rise in BP caused by adrenaline and noradrenaline which are secreted as a result of stimulation of the nicotinic receptors in the adrenal medulla by Histamine.
If we administer antihistamine, it will block the H1 receptors and there will be no fall of BP but as Histamine will still act on the nicotinic receptors of the adrenal medulla, there will be rise. The rise can be prevented by administration of α-blockers which proves that the rise was due to adrenaline or noradrenaline."

The above would explain why antihistamines dont work with this adrenal surge +allergy issue. It also explains why beta blockers might not work very effectively, but substantial dosages of alpha blockers might. I remember someone mentioning either on this forum or "the other" one, that afluzosin(flomax i think its called), an alpha blocker meant for prostate problems, really helped them out with POIS.
 

It seems the nicotinic receptors in the adrenal glands might be a key issue here.... Look at Vincent M's post in the "other forum":
Took one pill of diphenhydramine (generic Benadryl) last night about 15min before an "o" and today I felt great. I think I feel the best I have since I got POIS. I may still have some brain fog and I can tell my anxiety is still a bit high, but physically I'd say I'm 90% free of POIS. Mentally I'd say at least 50% free of POIS. I can't tell if benadryl works better than Claritin or not just yet, but it seems it does. Also it's possible that I feel good due to a cumulative effect of the other meds I've been taking. I plan on testing benadryl again next weekend. I don't have as much time to experiment now that I'm working unfortunately

Why does benadryl work before O for him, but claritiin does not?? BEcause benadryl is an anticholingeric, meaning it helps block activation of nicotinic receptors, while claritin really just has antihistamine properties, having no effect on the adrenal glands, like bendaryl does.

If the Adrenal surge theory is correct, and thats a big IF, then it seems there are three ways to prevent alot of the bad POIS symptoms: 1. prevent the conversion of noradrenaline to adrenaline, which can be done with such things as niacin. 2. prevent the release of adrenaline from the adrenal glands, which can be done by blocking the activiation of the nicotinic receptors on the adrenals. and 3. block the activtiation of adrenaline receptors throughout the body with beta blockers(although this seems to be the least effective since its better to prevent the surge rather than try to contain it after the fact).

I want to add I put the above solutions in order of effectiveness. Theoritically it would seem best to prevent the conversion in the first place, which niacin does... Second best to prevetn adrealine release which antinicotinics/anticholinergics should do... and lastly try to stop the adrenaline from attaching to receptors all over your body, which seems difficult to do, plus beta blockers have their own side effects. It seems the solution is between the first and second steps, taking something before O to stop noradrenaline conversion or stop release of adrenaline.


I want to add two more things and this is very important: 1. Testosterone needs to be added to the list of above solutions, and it works by making you pee out noradrenaline, essentially lowering the amounts of adrenaline precursor in your body AND 2. If none of these above solutions work for you I would say one of two things is going on: First, you dont have POIS and you have some other issue going on that just gets worse when you orgasm, it could be hypoglycemia it could be an anxiety disorder, etc. and Second: you could have a lingering allergy cascade even after the orgasm, and hence u still have high amounts of histamine goign to ur adrenals and causing chronic hyper adrenaline to mess u up
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Daveman on August 15, 2012, 11:41:19 AM
Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here :D


It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names!  :)



It seems my initials fit ;)
Something I'm also wondering about is whether phenotype DNA testing such as that done on 23andme would reveal anything. I haven't had it done but I'm thinking about it. My concern would be, what if I had a metabolic disorder that was easily diagnosed with such a test but was difficult to determine otherwise.
Should probably send them an email!

The DNA testing would hold more for those who have had POIS since puberty probably. Some, although I don't know what percentage, get it later in life, and without "apparent" hereditary evidence.

If I had to guess from numbers I've seen in our surveys, I'd say it's close to 50/50 on whether it started with puberty or not.

Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: valtak on August 18, 2012, 05:58:20 AM
Daveman - this theory is compelling. One question though. I take Indomethacin after day 0 and it
keeps symptoms at bay for 1-2 days. Unfortunately I can't taking indomethacin more
than 3 times a week - it has bad stomach side-effects. But wondering how
this works with your theory.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: kurtosis on August 18, 2012, 06:16:11 AM
Of course, we have a problem in that we're not all getting the same tests. It's not like there's an orchestrated experiment here :D


It's quite possible and actually a very good idea to set up a special thread to orchestrate some of these tests. If there's enough interest, like at least 5 members it could be enough to get started. I think the idea (correct me if I'm wrong) would be to devise some specific tests, perhaps including diet, dedication (for the length of the tests) to just the tests (not combined with any other remedy) and to take specific medical tests via specific procedures and possibly testing the results against certain specific therapies.

We'd probably need a group of 10 to 15 to "apply", and then we would choose the best combination (giving backgrounds) to produce the most revealing results.

So if something like that would be possible, respond here and maybe we can get it going. Of course it should be overseen / driven by someone with initials "Kurtosis" not to be too specific with names!  :)



It seems my initials fit ;)
Something I'm also wondering about is whether phenotype DNA testing such as that done on 23andme would reveal anything. I haven't had it done but I'm thinking about it. My concern would be, what if I had a metabolic disorder that was easily diagnosed with such a test but was difficult to determine otherwise.
Should probably send them an email!

The DNA testing would hold more for those who have had POIS since puberty probably. Some, although I don't know what percentage, get it later in life, and without "apparent" hereditary evidence.

If I had to guess from numbers I've seen in our surveys, I'd say it's close to 50/50 on whether it started with puberty or not.



Not entirely. There are illnesses such as Hartnup diseases which are hereditary but the onset can be as late as early adulthood and "nearly always" follows a period of poor nutrition according to wikipedia and several other websites that detail the disease. The reason I mention Hartnup is to illustrate a point and because it's creates cognitive symptoms through a protein metabolism problem which is treated using niacin.
There are many other examples but it seems that puberty and sexual maturation can cause hereditary illnesses to surface or an existing condition can become obvious following another illness due to nutrient deficiencies. So we can't discount the possibility that there is a genetic marker for POIS or that POIS is a variant of another illness where some other genetic or environmental factor exacerbating the problem after an O.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Daveman on August 18, 2012, 07:20:22 AM
Daveman - this theory is compelling. One question though. I take Indomethacin after day 0 and it
keeps symptoms at bay for 1-2 days. Unfortunately I can't taking indomethacin more
than 3 times a week - it has bad stomach side-effects. But wondering how
this works with your theory.

What symptoms do you find that it helps with most? I'm not familiar with Indomethacin, so I would have to look it up, but
perhaps others may have better understanding.

To me it sounds like more of a symptom "number" as opposed to a symptom "preventer".... but again... don't know Indomethacin.

This present theory for which there are those who understand it better than I, works more on disarming the damaging internal reactions or preventing conditions that cause the symptoms.

Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: valtak on August 19, 2012, 08:45:26 PM
you are probably right about Indomethacin being a Symptom reducer - it's classified as a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug - from wikipedia:
"non-selective inhibitor of cyclooxygenase (COX) 1 and 2. - enzymes that participate in prostaglandin synthesis from arachidonic acid. Prostaglandins are
hormone-like molecules .."
I've found Indomethacin useful for cognitive disfunction / headache/ dizziness and chronic fatigue after POIS.
What is interesting is that Indomethacin is prescribed for a class of migraine headaches -
there are some migraines that respond favorably to Indomethacin and some that do not.
So POIS seems to have something in common with those migraines that respond favorably
to indomethacin.

Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Hoping on August 20, 2012, 01:25:56 PM
very interesting haidcat!!
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Egordon on August 20, 2012, 01:39:42 PM
Indomethacin is actually quite effective for reducing symptoms. It was the first prescription that i was prescribed for POIS and the diagnosis -- although off base -- has continued to shape my notion of the disorder. Indomethacin is used to treat post-coital headaches, a subset of cluster headaches. Individuals with POIS seem to be diagnosed as having cluster headaches relatively often because the inflammation/irritation (and partial closure) that afflicts our left eye is a symptom of the disease. Although we lack many of the other symptoms of cluster headaches, I suspect the mechanism by which they work is instructive:

When a cluster headache is triggered, certain blood vessels within the brain become inflamed. The expansion of these blood vessels causes them to press on certain nerves, causing tremendous pain for the individual afflicted AND causing partial closure of the left eye (presumably by pressing upon related nerves).

It's not clear how exactly POIS works but the success that i've had from anti-inflammatories points to inflammation in cerebral veins (and potentially, given the pressure we experience behind our noses and in our foreheads, other veins). I've always suspected that our brainfog was a result of either: 1) this inflammation obstructing the delivery of sufficient oxygen to the brain or changing the flow of oxygen within the brain; or 2) this inflammation pushing against parts of the brain that are necessary for cognition.

In any case, i've always thought that the migrane/vascular model was one demanding greater scrutiny. I've been trying to get a referral to a specialist that can analyze things like cerebral bloodflow but attempts have been unsuccessful thus far.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Going less Crazy on August 20, 2012, 02:53:05 PM
This theory may explain why after I take benadryl before orgasm, my terrible inflammation "auto-immune" brain symptoms are gone, but I feel very nervous and anxious for about half a day after orgasm.  If our bodies release histamine, our bodies also release loads of adrenaline to counteract the affects of histamine.  Since benadryl only affects histamine receptors, and not the overall amount of histamine that is being released, adrenaline is still being pumped into my system and yet that is why I feel the affects of too much adrenaline.  It makes perfect sense.

I found that taking calcium magnesium helps for a few hours from this high adrenaline affect, but some have suggested niacin from preventing noradrenalines conversion into adrenaline?  I guess I will try that.  Next "O" I will do a niacin flush then take a benadryl, it seems like it would clear all of my symptoms.

p.s.  I am taking 25 mg benadryl pre-orgasm.  I find taking 50mg keeps me tired throughout the next day while 25mg does not.  I weigh about 155 pounds.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Prancer on August 22, 2012, 09:33:02 PM
This theory may explain why after I take benadryl before orgasm, my terrible inflammation "auto-immune" brain symptoms are gone, but I feel very nervous and anxious for about half a day after orgasm.  If our bodies release histamine, our bodies also release loads of adrenaline to counteract the affects of histamine.  Since benadryl only affects histamine receptors, and not the overall amount of histamine that is being released, adrenaline is still being pumped into my system and yet that is why I feel the affects of too much adrenaline.  It makes perfect sense.

I found that taking calcium magnesium helps for a few hours from this high adrenaline affect, but some have suggested niacin from preventing noradrenalines conversion into adrenaline?  I guess I will try that.  Next "O" I will do a niacin flush then take a benadryl, it seems like it would clear all of my symptoms.

p.s.  I am taking 25 mg benadryl pre-orgasm.  I find taking 50mg keeps me tired throughout the next day while 25mg does not.  I weigh about 155 pounds.

Thank you for this info GLC. :) I tried 50mg diphenhydramine and amazingly I felt much better after. This seems to work way better for me than niacin does. I take the diphenhydramine anyway almost every night to help me sleep. I don't want to try this during the day because it makes me very sleepies too, especially at 50mg.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Going less Crazy on August 22, 2012, 10:32:45 PM
Haha i had to think for a second, not used to being called GLC  :P.  Yes I only take the diphenhydramine at night in particular because of its drowsy effects.  50mg would put me out for a day, but I guess over time once you get used to the medication it will probably take more for the same effects.  It's possible that maybe 50 mg will get rid of the "nervous energy" and adrenaline coursing through my system after O, but still i'd rather not be asleep for a whole day.  Next experiment is 25 mg benadryl after a nice niacin flush.

EDIT:  I think 50 mg benadryl is better for POIS than 25.  Just O's after a niacin flush and taking one 25 mg benadryl, felt better after adding another benadryl, more relaxed and tired.  50 mg may be the key for me.  It seems to get rid of this "nervous" energy.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Habibou on October 13, 2012, 11:28:03 AM
This theory has lot of sens for me , but my adrenalin results are actually really low... !  :)
I will post again my neurotransmitters results :

  January 2011

Blood :
-adrenaline           <0.50 nmol/l         < 1.00
-noradrenaline        8.53 nmol/l       < 4.00                              1443 ng/l      < 675
-dopamine            <0.50 nmol/l         <1.00


Unrina during 24h :

-adrenaline       0.02 umol/l           < 0.10
-noradrenaline   0.42 umol/l          < 0.50
-dopamine        1.34 umol/l           < 3.00

All the blood tests were done 2 hours after an O.
The red standards are the unusual ones !

January 2012 :
ONLY Urina test, morning 10 hours after an O:

DOPA                       91.50 ug/g  (160 - 240)
34DOPAC                       0.40 mg/g    (0.70 - 4.00)
HVA                          1.90 mg/g    (2.43 - 5.20)
NORADRENALIN          10.30 ug/g   (15.70 - 34.30)
MHPG                          1.50 mg/g  (1.38 - 4.15)
VMA                            1.60 mg/g  (2.10 - 3.85)
ADRENALIN                  0.98  ug/g  (1.27 - 6.10)
SEROTONIN                62.40  ug/l   (61.50 - 116.80)
5HIAA                        2.30    mg/g (2.03 - 4.26)
HVA5HIAA                  0.83            (1.25 - 2.56)
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: sameer7777 on October 13, 2012, 05:14:03 PM
So what you gonna do after this results
Especially about andraline ???
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: LAPOISSE on March 27, 2013, 04:02:50 AM
Very interesting topic ; I don't undersand why we dropped it ; I think we cant' based anything on the habibou's result because :

-it could be a surge of an other neurotransmitors that make the mess(depletion of dopamine or dopac) for exemple dopamine
-Based on my neurologue opinion, there is no correlation between urine or hair NT concentration and the neuronal activity of this NT ; The mecanism is infinitly more complex

The problem is we don't have a clue about all that's work ; (My neuro who is considered as one of the best in France told me that)

The best idea is probably to work empiricly like traditional medecine. There is things to do to try influence the concentration of usueful NT. My inch is we need to focus in dopamine.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: sameer7777 on March 31, 2013, 03:46:17 PM
Guys why this thread is close it was going some where !!!!
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: caffeinetruth on October 24, 2014, 04:34:00 PM
This theory already has some backing here:https://sites.google.com/site/poiswebsite/test-page/orgasm-induced-catecholamine-imbalance-via-pituitary-dysfunction
Ive got a theory here, that might explain alot of symptoms of POIS, and why niacin/continual vitamin b complex supplmentation is working for alot of us. To make it short, POIS could be a debilitating reaction to a massive adrenaline surge during orgasm. This reaction can last for DAYS, yes days."

It should be noted that caffeine may play a huge role in this. Caffeine extends the fight-or-flight response in the body by blocking adenosine. Which helps return the body to homeostasis (normalcy) after fight-or-flight. Caffeine is hindering this return to rest. Many people have overcome chronic fatigue by forcing themselves to have mandatory rest days. This "rest response" would not be so mandatory if the body was not being sabotaged by a foreign agent. In this case Trimethylxanthine (caffeine).

You said it yourself, after every major adrenaline surge comes these problems. Even from high energy exercise. Its like....what should be a cigarette lighter size flame, is more like a flamethrower sized flame. Dr Abram Hoffer used high doses of Niacin to treat schizophrenics in the 50's. He believed a mutation in a schizophrenics body turns adrenaline into adenochrome, a hallucinogenic substance. He claims him and his medical assistant shot up with adrenochrome like how junkies shoot up and he could simulate the symptoms of schizophrenia in himself within 45 minutes. But the point is...he claimed Niacin acts like a buffer that can mop up access adrenaline. By removing the adrenaline, hence, he could treat the schizo's. I read on another website that Niacin helps metabolize the adrenaline through a certain enzyme. I find Niacin helps me sleep better than any other vitamin or herb (and even some prescription sleeping pills)

But, you guys are gonna run around in circles ad nauseum until you learn to take the bull completely out of the china shop. Aka caffeine in the body. Thats means ZERO caffeine. Not one chocolate treat...not one caffeinated soda or coffee....READ THE LABELS!

If anyone needs help getting off caffeine and if you have any questions just let me know.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Nas on July 25, 2016, 03:36:58 AM
I tried Non-Flush Niacin and it didn't do anything. Does it has to flush to work ?
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: demografx on July 25, 2016, 07:40:39 AM

...But, you guys are gonna run around in circles ad nauseum until you learn to take the bull completely out of the china shop. Aka caffeine in the body. Thats means ZERO caffeine. Not one chocolate treat...not one caffeinated soda or coffee....READ THE LABELS!

If anyone needs help getting off caffeine and if you have any questions just let me know.


(http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab143/demografx/FD02DBED-3B22-4A48-8048-49B7A651D9B2.gif)


Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Quantum on July 25, 2016, 08:33:54 AM
I tried Non-Flush Niacin and it didn't do anything. Does it has to flush to work ?

Hi Nas,

Many niacin users say they need to have the flush in order to have effectiveness, and others says they don't need it and had success with non-flush niacin.

I am not using niacin, so Daveman or another niacin user could give you more information on this topic.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: certainlypois2 on July 25, 2016, 10:51:28 AM
I tried Non-Flush Niacin and it didn't do anything. Does it has to flush to work ?

You need the flush type. You have to use it before orgasm and wait for the flush to run its course.  Start small may be one pill, niacin flush is very intense.
naturesway niacin always gave me a solid flush.
Title: Re: Stumbled onto something potentially huge!
Post by: Muon on October 06, 2020, 04:14:47 PM
I'm spamming this in Catecholamine/dysautonomia related threads: https://www.dinet.org/info/pots/pots-what-helps-r100/