Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (P.O.I.S.)

General Category => General POIS Discussions => Topic started by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 09:55:39 AM

Title: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 09:55:39 AM
Hi,

I've just joined and wanted to communicate what I believe the cause of this illness is, at least in my case.

I've been ill since aged 14 so maybe being sexually active started all of this for me. Initial symptoms were chronic fatigue but have progressed since then.

A year ago at age 30, I was on a course of a dangerous antibiotic called Ciprofloxacin. I have since developed a large number of symptoms like fibromyalgia, connective tissue damage, joint pain, fat padding loss. All of it worsens after an orgasm and the worst of it persists for about a week.

I believe high oxidative stress is the action in this illness. I find I sustain tissue damage in any part of my body that I put my bodyweight on for an extended period of time. I have lost the fat padding in my feet and am now severely flat-footed, I have lost the fat under my eyes and have prominent blue veins. I have to sleep on a doughnut shaped pillow so I don't lose further cartilage in my ears. My leg bones also hurt and I get bruising on my legs just from walking.

I have done tests which show a highly elevated Superoxide Dismutase enzyme, this measures oxidative stress. I also have abnormal bone inflammation markers called Osteocalcin and Beta-cTX. My cholesterol is also abnormally high suggesting high lipid oxidation.

I believe the cause of this oxidative stress to be from the loss of gut bacteria due to antibiotic use. There is a particular group of gut bacteria called "butyrate producers" that regulate inflammation in the body. I have tested my gut bacteria and have lost practically all of these butyrate producing species such as Roseburia, Faecalibacterium, Akkermansia, Copprocus.

I encourage people to check their gut bacteria using a "16S" test such as Ubiome or Atlas Biomed and see if they too are missing these crucial bacteria. Some tests just use cultures of bacteria and are useless, make sure it is a "16S" test which uses a technique called PCR.

Let me know what you all think.

Thanks,
Simon
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 21, 2018, 10:28:58 AM
Hi Simon,

Can you put this lab test data inside this thread?
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0

We need your numerical data results and a good overview of what has been found so far, so people like myself can check these out, post them in the thread above plz. How do they know you have connective tissue damage? How did they test this? Btw my leg bones hurt as well sometimes, it's mostly isolated to the center of my shinbones.

Interesting, I was reading today about Tregs and environmental factors and they mentioned butyrate producing species. I looked this up because specific T-regs can actually induce IgG4 and IFN-gamma production (which are both high in my case) See figure 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4332351/

Thanks for sharing this info.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 11:15:49 AM
Sure, I'll add that later today.

Inulin is a prebiotic that boosts butyrate bacteria so might be worth trying. Since I've lost most butyrate species, it has only a minor effect on me and I can take much because I have bad reactions to foods and supplements.

I was looking at a faecal microbiota transplant to get missing butyrate species back in small numbers but there are a number of issues I have with the procedure including the safety of the donor samples and some of the preparation they require patients to make including having a colonic lavage which could worsen things.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 11:29:06 AM
Any idea what b. f. stands for? Cannot find it anywhere.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 21, 2018, 11:32:04 AM
Have you done a test for osteoporosis?
You could have bone resorption or turnover problems resulting in osteoporosis.
These beta crosslaps could be responsible for degradation of type 1 collagen. I wonder if POIS raises this parameter.
I will at least check osteocalcin and Beta cross laps for myself. Keep us up to date whenever you decide to get a faecal microbiota transplant.

b/f = brain fog
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on August 21, 2018, 11:42:42 AM
I ate inuline every day and it seems no to help.
But anyway, I agree all what you wrote.
=> With the intestine all is possible.
LOT of disease starts in the intestine (few weeks ago scientists found that Alzheimer starts in gut....).

I always said my Pois starts in my intestine because each time, ~3 hours after orgasm, I have diahreas and i feel all my intestine start to liquifefy.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 12:01:40 PM
Thanks

I did the following test for osteoperosis, everything was normal except the beta-CTx:

https://www.medichecks.com/oesteoporosis-tests/osteoporosis-profile

I did the osteocalcin test separately. I did also test calcitonin and that was normal.

I've done loads more tests but too many to write down. Some of my steroid hormone were high during a flare like Cortisol, aldosterone and sex hormone binding globulin. I'll add those to the other page as well. All the blood viruses and lyme disease were negative.

I have not had a formal diagnosis of tissue damage but it is a fairly common reaction to Fluoroquinolone antibiotics which are known to damage collagen. I can actually feel I have lost cartilage in my ear auricles and on the hyoid bone in my neck.

Do you know of anyone that has tested their gut microbiome? I have been considering going to the Taymount clinic for FMT but doubt I will have the procedure unless they remove the requirement for a colonic as preparation. They aren't actually medical practitioners so I really don't know how ethical they are and they don't accept liability for any diseases transmitted in the donor samples. They also reserve the right to cancel your procedure and keep your money, it's all a bit shady.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 12:05:32 PM
B_jim,

If you test your gut bacteria as I described above, we can hopefully find a common cause of our issues.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 21, 2018, 12:23:22 PM
You can't diagnose osteoporosis based on the tests you have done. The only reliable method for measuring osteoporosis ,as far as I know, is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-energy_X-ray_absorptiometry

Doctors never looked at my microbiome. Don't know why, maybe it's a grey area for them or these tests aren't reliable. I have no clue where to get this tested.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 12:42:24 PM
Yeah, a bone DEXA scan is the way to confirm osteoperosis but my tests are for initial investigations. I am waiting to see a metabolic doctor so maybe he will order a scan but I don't much care if I have osteoperosis, it is a symptom of a bigger problem.

Doctors don't even look at the microbiome, maybe wait 50 years and they will finally do their jobs properly. If it is a chronic disease that they don't understand, they just say it is mental illness and prescribe anti-depressants  ??? We are on our own with this illness I think.

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 12:44:36 PM
If you live in the USA, there is a company called Ubiome. In the UK, there is a company called Atlas Biomed.

In whatever country you live, just find a "16S" microbiome test.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 21, 2018, 01:00:43 PM
You mean this one? https://atlasbiomed.com/nl/microbiome
But does the medical community take these results serious? How reliable are these tests?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 01:34:55 PM
As I said previously, I don't think you will get help from the medical community for something they don't yet understand. They should be treating autoimmune disease and maybe Alzheimer's or Multiple Sclerosis using gut bacteria but that will not happen for maybe 30 years. They treat autoimmune disease with steroids instead and that causes the patient's bones to die eventually.

The 16S microbiome test measures bacteria in a stool sample, it is a reliable test but bacteria do shift depending on what you eat so you might want to do it a few times.

If you talk to microbiologists, they will know a lot more about the importance of gut bacteria than doctors. You can also read medical research about the link between Celiac disease and low butyrate bacteria like faecalibacterium.

I have posted my results here as requested:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: quotz on August 21, 2018, 01:41:12 PM
Simon,

I live in the UK too! How did you find doctors that knew this much about your condition? I struggled to find NHS doctors about my brain fog and POIS, and the referrals take ages. Did you go private? Could you recommend some doctors? All GPs I went to so far just kept ordering simple blood tests and had no idea whats going on, and they finally referred me to a neurologist which I had to wait for months, and he came up with nothing and eventually stopped replying since I moved out for the summer. I am thinking of suing them for medical negligence.

Best,
Quotz
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 02:05:52 PM
Quotz,

I wouldn't bother suing, it won't help you and may prevent further NHS treatment. I've had no luck with doctors, I do have a distant relative who is a microbiologist and he helped me a bit.

In America, they have many "functional" doctors who can diagnose unconventional illnesses but I haven't talked to any in the UK. As I said previously, I developed this POIS after taking a fluoroquinolone antibiotic and there are thousands of people affected by it. I think it is due to gut bacteria loss and I am looking to fix it myself.

If you read this forum, there is a Dutch doctor that can diagnose this condition but I really don't need a diagnosis.

I do research myself and then order tests from Medichecks.com
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: nanna1 on August 21, 2018, 02:17:57 PM
Hi Simon66,

  Thanks for posting your medical records. You mention some virus test that you took. Would you post the results of those virus test as well. I mention this because it could help rule out possible causes of POIS and put any correlations (positive or negative) on a statistical basis. Thanks again for sharing your valuable test!  :)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: quotz on August 21, 2018, 02:23:20 PM
Simon,

I havent heard of any "functional" doctors in the UK. I need to find a doctor who knows what brain fog is, and possibly POIS too, as they are related in my case. If you know any, or you can give me any advice on where to look for them, I would be very grateful.

Also, check fecal transplantation. There are some people who swear by it.

Best,
Quotz
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 03:06:29 PM
Nanna1,

I have updated my results post.

Quotz,

I am pretty much self-treating myself right now so I don't know. Regarding faecal transplants, I've written a bit about it in my earlier replies. You could order a microbiome test from Atlas Biomed and see if the butyrate bacteria are missing like I found, that might give you an answer for your issues or it might not.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on August 21, 2018, 04:54:11 PM
About 18 years ago I started masturbating a lot. First after every ejaculation I would take a shower. But later I got lazy. I only used a towel and go to sleep. The next morning I took a shower. After a few months I got an UTI. The doctor gave me Ciprofloxacin. I helped against the UTI. It was at that time that my POIS got worse. I don’t think Ciprofloxacin is the reason why I got POIS. Later Ciprofloxacin didn’t help. I took antibiotics that are higher on the ladder. Now I am on Cefuroxim. I used to take onlye a break of 1 week and then started a new treatment with Cefuroxim. Now I developed candida. So now I try to take a break of a few weeks. And drink and eat pro biotics.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
Yeah, I agree. I think the POIS was there before Cipro as I'd had some symptoms since around aged 14. I did have antibiotics as a child so maybe that triggered it initially or maybe I was just born with it and symptoms started when I hit puberty.

I do think POIS is caused by gut dysbiosis though, antibiotics and steroids can do damage to gut bacteria and so can food poisoning.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on August 21, 2018, 05:33:20 PM
Yeah, I agree. I think the POIS was there before Cipro as I'd had some symptoms since around aged 14. I did have antibiotics as a child so maybe that triggered it initially or maybe I was just born with it and symptoms started when I hit puberty.

I do think POIS is caused by gut dysbiosis though, antibiotics and steroids can do damage to gut bacteria and so can food poisoning.
Agree about the gut. Both my brothers have Crohn’s disease. They checked me at the hospital, but I don’t have Crohn’s disease.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 21, 2018, 06:10:48 PM
Have a read about butyrate bacteria and Crohn's if you haven't already. I think restoring faecalibacterium and roseburia species are the key to a cure.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 21, 2018, 08:25:43 PM
Agree about the gut. Both my brothers have Crohn’s disease. They checked me at the hospital, but I don’t have Crohn’s disease.
Wait what? They both have Crohn's?

I already had food intolerances and fatigue symptoms long before the first time I masturbated. Some things that caught my eye during my read about Crohn's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crohn%27s_disease

''Another theory is that the inflammation of Crohn's was caused by an overactive Th1 and Th17 cytokine response''
I have measured a Th1 response.

''Low serum levels of vitamin D are associated with Crohn's disease''
Got that as well...check.

Have a read about butyrate bacteria and Crohn's if you haven't already. I think restoring faecalibacterium and roseburia species are the key to a cure.

It seems that patients of Crohn's disease show smaller populations of butyrate producing bacteria if I scroll through articles.
Hmmm IL-8 seems to play a role in Crohn's and IBD. Butyrate is actually a modulator for IL-8 in intestinal epithelia.
https://gut.bmj.com/content/37/4/536
https://gut.bmj.com/content/38/2/216?int_source=trendmd&int_medium=trendmd&int_campaign=trendmd
https://www.nature.com/articles/pr2007275
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2249.1994.tb06047.x
https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/13/16/1715/673135

My brother and I both have elevated IL-8 and this could be related to the intestinal epithelia due to some inflammatory reaction. You guys should test for IL-8 when you have the chance. I'm curious if you guys have it as well.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on August 21, 2018, 08:30:25 PM
Hmmmm,
People take Ciprofloxacin all the time though, why don't they get POIS as we do?
I know you are very passionate about this theory but I find it that it still needs to explain how the heck does Orgasm causes a general immunological reponse.
Also you mentioned that Ciprofloxican killed some bacteria in your gut, but have you ever considered that it can be an opposite case where Ciprofloxican evolved another form of bateria and that this bacteria is living inside consuming your hormones?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on August 21, 2018, 08:50:25 PM
Agree about the gut. Both my brothers have Crohn’s disease. They checked me at the hospital, but I don’t have Crohn’s disease.
Wait what? They both have Crohn's?

I already had food intolerances and fatigue symptoms long before the first time I masturbated. Some things that caught my eye during my read about Crohn's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crohn%27s_disease

''Another theory is that the inflammation of Crohn's was caused by an overactive Th1 and Th17 cytokine response''
I have measured a Th1 response.

''Low serum levels of vitamin D are associated with Crohn's disease''
Got that as well...check.

Have a read about butyrate bacteria and Crohn's if you haven't already. I think restoring faecalibacterium and roseburia species are the key to a cure.

It seems that patients of Crohn's disease show smaller populations of butyrate producing bacteria if I scroll through articles.
Hmmm IL-8 seems to play a role in Crohn's and IBD. Butyrate is actually a modulator for IL-8 in intestinal epithelia.
https://gut.bmj.com/content/37/4/536
https://gut.bmj.com/content/38/2/216?int_source=trendmd&int_medium=trendmd&int_campaign=trendmd
https://www.nature.com/articles/pr2007275
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2249.1994.tb06047.x
https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/13/16/1715/673135

My brother and I both have elevated IL-8 and this could be related to the intestinal epithelia due to some inflammatory reaction. You guys should test for IL-8 when you have the chance. I'm curious if you guys have it as well.

Are hemorrhoids connected with Crohin's disease? Plus I do feel pain in my intestines from time to time ?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 21, 2018, 09:05:33 PM
Btw Nas I'm curious about how you got internet in Iraq. Is it common to have it over there or is it a luxury?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 22, 2018, 06:14:38 AM

Hmmmm,
People take Ciprofloxacin all the time though, why don't they get POIS as we do?
I know you are very passionate about this theory but I find it that it still needs to explain how the heck does Orgasm causes a general immunological reponse.
Also you mentioned that Ciprofloxican killed some bacteria in your gut, but have you ever considered that it can be an opposite case where Ciprofloxican evolved another form of bateria and that this bacteria is living inside consuming your hormones?

Nas,

I'm keeping an open mind but I've posted this butyrate theory in hope that other members will test their gut bacteria and either prove or disprove me.

Let's decide if butyrate bacteria deficiency is an issue for us first and then we can look for a link to orgasms. If I had to take a wild guess, perhaps sex hormone binding globulin (which interacts with steroid hormones) messes with the bacterial balance of the gut. Steroids are known to disrupt the gut bacteria. But as I said, it is useless to speculate at this stage.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on August 22, 2018, 09:58:54 AM
Btw Nas I'm curious about how you got internet in Iraq. Is it common to have it over there or is it a luxury?

Nah we just pray and god sends his holy satellites.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 22, 2018, 10:36:05 AM
Nah we just pray and god sends his holy satellites.

LOL!
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Meshal on August 22, 2018, 10:52:03 PM
Not sure If this will help but someone posted something similar last year:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2408.0
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 23, 2018, 10:22:36 AM
Muon,

Have a read about the beneficial effects of lactobacillus on interleukin-8:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3888682/

Raw, fermented sauerkraut (not the pasteurised supermarket crap) supposedly has lactobacillus plantarum.

My microbiome test showed that I have no Lactobacillus at all, so I am trying some proper fermented sauerkraut that I bought through an online store. I get an initial bad reaction but it is possibly helping after the sauerkraut reaches my gut. I'll try and remember to post an update in 1 or 2 weeks.

Lactobacillus seems to have similar effects to butyrate bacteria, it maintains the gut lining and reduces inflammation.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 23, 2018, 11:03:08 AM
I ate imported Kimchi from South-Korea daily for a month. The amount was approximately 500g/3= 167 g per day, sometimes a bit less. The first two days I felt good (clear mind) but after that I could not notice anything except for my stomach which felt irritated by the acidity plus it made my teeth more sensitive, however it slightly increased digestion. One time I deliberately kept a closed package for a few days at room temperature up till the point it almost exploded. When I ate that specific portion there were literally gasbubbles forming in my stool while I was looking at my stool.

Product:
https://www.xtrons-store.com/lehibe/xtronsstore/img-1013-charming-mat-kimchi-design-3-1482-x-1880.jpg

@Simon66: Do you have postural intolerance, low blood pressure, tachycardia or autonomic dysfunctional related symptoms?
Above your cortisol measurement you stated this was taken during a flare. What happens during a flare, could you describe this?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 23, 2018, 12:41:54 PM
Muon,

Has that Kimchi actually got any living bacteria? It is manufactured and not refrigerated so it is perhaps pasteurised. Kimchi has chilli doesn't it? That can't be good for the gut.

Here's the sauerkraut I am trying, it has only 2 ingredients:
https://www.lovingfoods.co.uk/collections/cultured-vegetables/products/sauerkraut-classic

Here's a Chris Kresser article about starting extremely slow with probiotics to let the gut bacteria adjust:
https://chriskresser.com/how-to-restore-healthy-gut-flora-over-the-long-term/


I sometimes have palpitations. Since around aged 14, my symptoms were mainly chronic fatigue, depression/low mood, getting frequent colds/flu, occasional skin rashes like eczema and once maybe had granuloma annulare on my hands. I did once go abroad to Singapore and had some kind of gut upset, my symptoms got a lot worse and I developed pain in my neck but that went away after a few weeks, afterwards my food intolerances were permanently worsened.

Since I took the Ciprofloxacin, the pain in my neck came back and I developed like 50 other symptoms associated with "Fluoroquinolone Toxicity". Basically I have an issue with the collagen in my body breaking down (probably due to high oxidative stress which is worse during a flare), I get bruising on my legs after walking, my shin bones ache, get severe uncontrollable panic and inability to sleep, hypnic jerks, my gut lining hurts if I don't take inulin, my body odour smells weird and strong, vision is sometimes bit blurry, very dry eyes, now have tinnitus and there's more but it is easier just to read about the condition of fluoroquinolone toxicity (which I think is caused by gut dysbiosis and probably worsened my pre-existing dysbiosis).

What is interesting is that people with Fluoroquinolone toxicity and people who have withdrawal issues with benzodiazapines seem to have similar issues. One of the factors I think is low GABA, this is a neurotransmitter thought to be produced and consumed by gut bacteria such as Lactobacillus. There's a discussion in this forum here:

http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2774.msg25029#msg25029

I have adopted a new theory now (still related to gut bacteria) that Low GABA is the cause of at least some our issues. People on this forum and in the Fluoroquinolone Toxicity Facebook groups mention that Alcohol improves or cures their symptoms because it binds to the GABA receptors in the brain and reduces the body's demand for GABA. I have read that during an orgasm the body uses a lot of GABA and that semen contains GABA. We know that an orgasm caused a feeling of exhilaration so it makes sense that there is a big change in neurotransmitter levels. I actually find that my libido gets stronger after 1 week of abstinence and it takes 1 week for the symptoms to die down, so my symptoms must all be from a depletion of a chemical used during orgasm and I think GABA is maybe the only chemical or perhaps there could be others.

So, I think to cure us we can try a few things:

- Try some alcohol (or other GABA substitutes like maybe taurine) to fill the GABA receptors in the brain and reduce the demand for GABA (which will stop harmful glutamate release).

- Fix the gut bacteria that produce and consume the GABA, I am reading that Lactobacillus is a good group of bacteria for this. I read that Lactobacillus does a lot of the same things as Butyrate bacteria such as reduce interleukin-8 and maintain the gut lining. Lactobacillus plantarum is found in sauerkraut and there is another called lactobacillus rhamnosus which I think is found in dairy. I have an extreme reaction to any dairy so I will proceed with a small amount of fermented sauerkraut. I picked a sauerkraut that had only 2 ingredients which is cabbage and salt (see my above link if you want to view it).
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 23, 2018, 01:23:40 PM
Btw I did try my own fermented sauerkraut (salt, water and cabbage) but that didn't help at all and couldn't use it for long because my teeth were too sensitive at that time. Then later I switched to a brand from south korea because they might contain different strains. That one was refrigerated and contained gas absorbants inside the package. If I would let it outside of the refrigerator it blows up quite fast, so I'm pretty sure it contains living bacteria. Oh yea I almost forgot to tell that it sometimes gave me diarrhea.

I haven't tried it for the long term though, like for at least a year. 4 weeks was the max.

About GABA: Yes Taurine helps a bit but it's a minor effect. I personally don't respond well to alcohol while it does help my mother with her symptoms when it's a small amount.

There are also indications I might have a SIBO so that means I could have an overgrowth of these lacto bacteria. In that case you shouldn't even be eating these fermented foods. My grandma actually did not respond well to cabbage in general (not fermented).

Another parameter you might want to consider is Serotonin. It's being produced inside the gut for >90%. Perhaps fermented food will help you, it didn't make a difference for me though.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 23, 2018, 04:39:23 PM
Btw I did try my own fermented sauerkraut (salt, water and cabbage) but that didn't help at all and couldn't use it for long because my teeth were too sensitive at that time. Then later I switched to a brand from south korea because they might contain different strains. That one was refrigerated and contained gas absorbants inside the package. If I would let it outside of the refrigerator it blows up quite fast, so I'm pretty sure it contains living bacteria. Oh yea I almost forgot to tell that it sometimes gave me diarrhea.

I haven't tried it for the long term though, like for at least a year. 4 weeks was the max.

About GABA: Yes Taurine helps a bit but it's a minor effect. I personally don't respond well to alcohol while it does help my mother with her symptoms when it's a small amount.

There are also indications I might have a SIBO so that means I could have an overgrowth of these lacto bacteria. In that case you shouldn't even be eating these fermented foods. My grandma actually did not respond well to cabbage in general (not fermented).

Another parameter you might want to consider is Serotonin. It's being produced inside the gut for >90%. Perhaps fermented food will help you, it didn't make a difference for me though.

Okay thanks, I think the strange suicidal panic and inability to sleep that I had immediately after taking Ciprofloxacin indicate it is probably low GABA causing my issues.

You need to get your microbiome tested using a "16S" accuracy, then you'll know if Lactobacillus is completely missing like in my case.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on August 24, 2018, 02:53:35 AM
After i so how Kurtosis did suscesfuly get rid of his pois  https://www.reddit.com/r/POIS/comments/35rh8o/kurtosis_explains_to_the_best_of_his_knowledge/
 Since then i am trying to repair my guts withouth susces.

I am tick bited in testicle in age 13,14. After that i got pneumonia.
Me olso think that i devolped pois in around age 13-14, when i hawe misdiagnosed pneumonia from bad doctor, then after a weak in high temerature anodher doctor diagnose me with pneumonia, its show that go on both wings infecktion.

3 moonth sick with large amount ANTIBIOTICS.

Newer been sick to age 13-14, after that pneumonia, i became so sensitive to colds for years later.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on August 24, 2018, 03:04:35 AM
What about VSL#3 triall?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2953593/
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: quotz on August 24, 2018, 06:33:48 AM
@Muon, @Simon66,

Have you guys tried experimenting with GABA, Dopamine, Serotonin modulators/inhibitors/stimulators? Methylphenidate, Benzodiazepines, 5HTP?

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 24, 2018, 08:14:53 AM
No, I have a bad reaction to supplements so won't do any of those unless I'm really desperate. I've got probiotic foods and prebiotic powder that I am currently using with some success.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on August 24, 2018, 09:05:31 AM
Lack of gaba is definitly involwed in my case.
2tht and 3th day after O, sometimes i hawe so sewere chest muscule stiffnes, that severe that is life treting.
In that case i preperedd wery small dose of benzos, that help me to survive.

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 24, 2018, 09:57:09 AM
Found this awesome explanation of neurotransmitters during libido and orgasm. For years I wondered why I felt motivated and happy during orgasm, I guess it is a rush of GABA to the brain. Then after a few seconds I lose all that motivation. Also felt happy when I used to drink alcohol but it would wear off after a few hours of drinking.

Quote
One of the most important organs for a healthy sex life is the brain. Neurotransmitters control all four phases of the sexual cycle: desire, arousal, orgasm, and resolution. Targeted nutrients balance the following neurotransmitters and optimize hormone balance: dopamine for desire, acetylcholine for arousal, gamma-amino butyric acid for orgasms, and serotonin for resolution.

Desire is initiated by the neurotransmitter dopamine, which is released in the brain during the anticipation of sex. Without dopamine release, there would be no anticipation or urge for sex, and therefore no libido. Vitamin C boosts dopamine and increases sperm count. Zinc is necessary for dopamine synthesis and is often depleted in individuals due to medications, inadequate diets, excessive stress, and toxic environmental exposures. Zinc is also required for testosterone production. Magnesium is a ?mineral aphrodisiac,? that increases sex drive. Taurine increases testosterone levels and is the most abundant amino acid found in the male sexual organs.

Arousal is initiated by the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, which assists with focus, creativity, and concentration. Low brain levels of acetylcholine make the brain unable to concentrate on sex, disrupting the normal arousal process. Taurine is an acetylcholine booster. Vitamin C assists arousal by promoting vasodilation in assistance with nitric oxide production. Nitric oxide boosts blood flow, lowers blood pressure, improves erectile strength, improves libido and lowers cortisol levels. Taurine and Arginine also assist in nitric oxide production and cause vasodilation. Vitamin C and Magnesium also enhance sex drive, through the synthesis of androgen, estrogen and progesterone, which aid in arousal. Selenium is essential to sperm production.

Orgasm is reached with the assistance of the neurotransmitter Gamma-amino butyric acid or GABA. GABA is responsible for evoking a feeling of calm and tranquility. Increasing the amount of GABA in the brain has a relaxing, anti-anxiety, and mood-soothing effect. GABA-enhancing compounds include the branched-chain amino acids Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine. Leucine, Isoleucine, and Valine also improve testosterone.

The final phase of sexual cycle is resolution. This is maintained by the neurotransmitter serotonin, which promotes a relaxed, happy, contented, and emotionally balanced feeling. These are the feelings many equate to the ?afterglow? after having sex. Vitamin C, magnesium and zinc increase the uptake of serotonin.

Source: http://striveiv.com/libido/

Also, I read this research that says GABA is produced by Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus gut bacteria:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5102282/#bib1065

My 16S gut microbiome test showed Lactobacillus at 0% and Bifidobacteria at 2.4%. I am taking Inulin and sauerkraut but in small amounts due to my gut reacting to anything I eat.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Scrub on August 24, 2018, 10:39:02 AM
@Muon, @Simon66,

Have you guys tried experimenting with GABA, Dopamine, Serotonin modulators/inhibitors/stimulators? Methylphenidate, Benzodiazepines, 5HTP?

Hi, I'm taking MPH on a daily basis and POIS is not affected by it, maybe the next day after orgasm, it makes me feel a little bit more anxiety, but that's it. Never tried any Benzos and 5-HTP.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: quotz on August 24, 2018, 02:17:39 PM
@Scrub,

I will try Methylphenidate soon and test it out. Try 5HTP, its pretty easy to get. Also try testing out Benzodiazepines too if you could.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on August 24, 2018, 10:12:46 PM
More and more diseases are linked to bacteria in gut. Even Alzheimer, even some cancers.
It's possible my Pois started after antibiotics usage but I don't remember.
What you wrote about bifidobacteries and lactobascillus about GABA is very interesting for me.

The point I would like to prove is the presence of GABA (and acethylcholine?) in human semen.
 Is sperm a "cocktail" of neurotransmitters ? (serotonin-like and dopamine-like hormones are present in semen, showed by scientific studies)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 25, 2018, 02:20:25 PM
Here's an article about the discovery of GABA modulating gut bacteria:

https://www.northeastern.edu/rise/presentations/gaba-modulating-bacteria-human-gut-microbiome/

It is only early research but to summarise:
- Researchers have struggled to grow many strains of gut bacteria in the past.
- They discovered that there are GABA-producing and GABA-consuming bacteria.
- Some bacteria depend on other bacteria to grow, this is known as crossfeeding.

I am going to try a long abstinence from O. I am hoping my GABA levels will rise, my gut bacteria will have more food and the anti-inflammatory gut bacteria will grow. I guess having an O is kinda selfish XD, we are using all the food that our gut bacteria eat.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on August 25, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
No, sex an O isnt selfish, half planet would be sick than, not only "3" man on earth, the logic and comon sense.
Ask eny of your frend, did they get sick after sex or mastubation, and evan overmasturbation. The answer will be NO!

How much sex and O is enoug for some idividua? Nature made that perfect, when is enoug for you , you will know it, its proces who end by it self.
Of course, if some one "torture" him self , that will not be good for that person probbly.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 25, 2018, 03:26:32 PM
Agreed, I was just making a joke. Perhaps most people have very high GABA-producing bacteria so they never run out.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on August 26, 2018, 05:05:48 AM
I think it could be useful to follow the gaba program.

I will buy glutamine/magnesium.

I make my own yogurt and fermented vegetables. Problem, I still have gastritis and this diet kills my stomach (soon go to the doctor)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 26, 2018, 06:05:58 AM
I think it could be useful to follow the gaba program.

I will buy glutamine/magnesium.

I make my own yogurt and fermented vegetables. Problem, I still have gastritis and this diet kills my stomach (soon go to the doctor)

Have you tried a long abstinence from O? Like 2 months?

Also, I have read that reducing the duration of masturbation means lower severity of POIS.

Found this information about fermented GABA tea called "gabaron" or "gabalong", I may try it: https://www.greentea.net/gaba/

Consider getting a Quantitative amino acid Urine test. I had it done some months ago and I am now looking at it today and seeing that pretty much all GABA precursors are low! Maybe GABA tea will help me.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Scrub on August 26, 2018, 10:26:09 AM
I think it could be useful to follow the gaba program.

I will buy glutamine/magnesium.

I make my own yogurt and fermented vegetables. Problem, I still have gastritis and this diet kills my stomach (soon go to the doctor)

Already tried glutamine and didn't do anything to me, I hope it works for you. 

Quote
Also, I have read that reducing the duration of masturbation means lower severity of POIS.

Not for me, unfortunately. I've abstained for 2 or 3 months and POIS was the same when I orgasmed after abstainance.

I'm very commited into resarching, for now, I'm pretty sure that I'm getting closer to find an explanation about what POIS actually is.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 26, 2018, 11:05:24 AM
Muon/All,

I've added my Amino Acid Quantitative test that I had done back in February 2018 to the results page (link added below). It's very interesting as GABA is not detected and many of the GABA precursors are low or very low.

My Results:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.15
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on August 27, 2018, 07:04:20 AM
Yes, I see your test, it's amazing.
M
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on August 27, 2018, 09:26:06 AM
Muon/All,

I've added my Amino Acid Quantitative test that I had done back in February 2018 to the results page (link added below). It's very interesting as GABA is not detected and many of the GABA precursors are low or very low.

My Results:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.15

Thanks for tests results, wery helfull to us.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 28, 2018, 06:18:57 AM
Research article suggests taking a combination of prebiotics is more effective than taking just one. Taking inulin with XOS appears to lower inflammation:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/xylooligosaccharide-xos-in-combination-with-inulin-modulates-both-the-intestinal-environment-and-immune-status-in-healthy-subjects-while-xos-alone-only-shows-prebiotic-properties/8F2D78EDB8C1B65D7935F19E4A85FB69/core-reader

Found a product with about 12 different prebiotics in one, I wonder if my gut could tolerate that many:

https://www.amazon.com/PREBIOTIC-InnovixLabs-Plant-based-Prebiotic-Gluten-free/dp/B01C80ZIXI
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on August 28, 2018, 07:22:04 AM
Research article suggests taking a combination of prebiotics is more effective than taking just one. Taking inulin with XOS appears to lower inflammation and IL-10:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/xylooligosaccharide-xos-in-combination-with-inulin-modulates-both-the-intestinal-environment-and-immune-status-in-healthy-subjects-while-xos-alone-only-shows-prebiotic-properties/8F2D78EDB8C1B65D7935F19E4A85FB69/core-reader

Found a product with about 12 different prebiotics in one, I wonder if my gut could tolerate that many:

https://www.amazon.com/PREBIOTIC-InnovixLabs-Plant-based-Prebiotic-Gluten-free/dp/B01C80ZIXI
I am on VSL#3. Hope brought that product to my attention. I am on day 2. It should work after a week. But now I am in pain. The problem is: is it a prostate infection or is it Candida? The symptoms are almost the same. Normally I would have taken antibiotics a few days ago. But now I want to wait for that week. You also should take prebiotics. Not only probiotics. I eat 2 cloves of garlic everyday.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 28, 2018, 07:36:14 AM
I had a bad reaction to VSL3 but think prebiotics are much better anyway. Probiotics are unlikely to colonise the gut, they only provide benefits as you take them but it wears off after a day or two.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 29, 2018, 04:59:08 PM
Quote
In addition to its well-known CNS roles, GABA also modulates inflammation. GABA receptor transcripts are present in immune cells (5 ?7). GABA treatment decreases inflammatory cytokine production in peripheral macrophages (5). GABA and GABA type A receptor (GABA-A-R) agonists decrease cytotoxic immune responses and cutaneous delayed-type hypersensitivity reactions (8, 9). Treatment with GABA decreased T cell autoimmunity and the development of inflammatory responses in the nonobese diabetic mouse model of type 1 diabetes (6). The site of action of GABA in the adaptive immune response, however, remains obscure.

See above quote. The latest version of my theory is gut dysbiosis causes chronic inflammation in the body. Our GABA can suppress most or all inflammation but when we orgasm we lose the GABA and the inflammation cannot be suppressed. So I am looking at prebiotics to fix my gut dysbiosis and hopefully GABA will no longer be needed to suppress inflammation.


Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/107/6/2580
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Bombardier on August 29, 2018, 05:24:57 PM
Just gonna chime in here: I've been on Gabapentin for nearly half a year due to my nerve pain. Unfortunately, it's done nothing for my POIS.

I don't mean to poke a hole in this theory, but if a GABA analogue can't control my particular type of POIS, I'm not entirely sure it has a role in this condition we all share.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 30, 2018, 09:32:34 AM
Just gonna chime in here: I've been on Gabapentin for nearly half a year due to my nerve pain. Unfortunately, it's done nothing for my POIS.

I don't mean to poke a hole in this theory, but if a GABA analogue can't control my particular type of POIS, I'm not entirely sure it has a role in this condition we all share.

Well, we're all different but it's good to hear your experience. Some people find alcohol works because it acts directly on the GABA receptors, you could try that.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Scrub on August 30, 2018, 10:39:04 AM
Just gonna chime in here: I've been on Gabapentin for nearly half a year due to my nerve pain. Unfortunately, it's done nothing for my POIS.

I don't mean to poke a hole in this theory, but if a GABA analogue can't control my particular type of POIS, I'm not entirely sure it has a role in this condition we all share.

Well, we're all different but it's good to hear your experience. Some people find alcohol works because it acts directly on the GABA receptors, you could try that.

I'll soon post my full theory about POIS, meanwhile, I can tell you this, alcohol works to prevent POIS or to fix POIS because it inhibits glutamate and work directly on NMDAR.

Quote
ethanol alters the function of a number of neurotransmitter receptors (e.g.: ?-amino butyric acid A (GABAA), glycine, glutamate, nor-epinephrine, DA, serotonin, acetylcholine) as well as transporters (adenosine, nor-epinephrine, DA, serotonin). Especially the ligand-gated ion channels including those belonging to the brain's major amino acid neurotransmitter systems ? the inhibitory GABA and the excitatory glutamate receptors ? were shown highly sensitive to the acute effect of ethanol at relevant (<100 mM) concentrations [49, 96, 103]. In the past years, there has been increasing evidence of facts that acute ethanol facilitates GABAergic transmission by enhancing chloride conductance of the GABAA receptors, and inhibits glutamatergic function by decreasing the flow of cations especially through the NMDA activated subclass of glutamate receptors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2645546/

I've tried gabapentin before and it didn't worked for POIS, I felt like crap, like a xxxxxxx walking zombie while I used it. Stay away from gabapentin unless it has been prescribed to you for another medical condition.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on September 03, 2018, 03:40:10 PM
Maybe I found something.

I have been wondering for a long time how norethisterone helps some Poisers. Norethisterone is a progesterone-like molecule. it has been used to counter Pois synmptoms since Dr Dexter published his study showing improvement of his patient after sex with his pregnant wife.
But why ?

Progesterone has an anxiolytic effect. Progestetrone is synthetize into allopregnanolone, which is a neurosteroid. This neurosteroid has an effect on Gaba receptor, causing anti-anxiety effect.

I tough that extra-progesterone given by dr Dextor might have a possible "general hormones rebalance effect"on his patient.
No : he simply gave him an hormonal anxyolitic.

I'm more and more convinced by the major role of gaba receptor in Pois.


But when I'm anxious, I don't have the same symptoms after ejaculation. It's like if there is something else.
Out of Pois => anxiety symptoms
In pois => anxiety symptoms + Pois symptoms

This "something else" is linked to sex, ejaculation or semen.
And it's linked to Gaba receptor.
Endorphins is a good candidate to be this "something else"
Endorphins is released with orgasm.
Endorphins is linked to gaba.
And symptom of low endorphins, are close to Pois symptoms.
Compare your Pois symptoms with 'opiate withdrawal syndrom'.





Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on September 03, 2018, 04:24:01 PM
Maybe that "something else" is inflammation.

POIS maybe starves some anti-inflammatory gut bacteria (that consume GABA) so you get an increase in inflammation and an upset gut that takes 1-2 weeks to improve.

I'm not going to be taking any pharmaceuticals. My plan is to try some water fasting to reset my gut and immune system, then I will take prebiotics like Inulin, XOS, Acacia Gum etc. and recheck my microbiome to see if I have any increases in anti-inflammatory good bacteria like Faecalibacterium, Roseburia and Lactobacillus (which are showing as 0% of my gut bacteria currently).
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on September 04, 2018, 11:09:18 AM
I just had a bad experience today after eating junk food (asian).
After, i looked at ingredient : E621 ! (monosodium glutamate).
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Scrub on September 04, 2018, 03:53:28 PM
I just had a bad experience today after eating junk food (asian).
After, i looked at ingredient : E621 ! (monosodium glutamate).

Are you very sensitive to MSG? How do you feel after eating it?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on September 05, 2018, 06:01:18 AM
I'm sensitive to junk food. But I'm tired now and anxious since several weeks. I clearly have anxiety symptoms and hot flashes.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on October 23, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
Recent medical article that probiotics may not be healty and not without risks:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2702973
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: JohnJames on November 01, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
@simon66

I think you are on to something, see link between CFS (which seems like a similar disease) and microbiome:

https://www.isotrope.com/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-gut-bacteria/

They specifically mention some of the things you are lacking.

Maybe POIS is CFS but most CFS sufferers don't realise that abstinence is a temporary fix...? Just food for thought.

Also I remember reading an article from Jeff Leach whom is studying the Hadza tribe whom eat a more traditional diet (most eat tubers, lots and lots of honey, berries, and meat, though it changes seasonally), he found that in dry seasons when much more of the caloric intake comes in the form of meat and less from fruits, honey, and vegetables their microbiome becomes MORE diverse rather than less.

Can't remember the exact article I read it in, but it is from one of the following, they are all pretty fascinating reads anyway:
http://humanfoodproject.com/author/jeff-leach/
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on November 05, 2018, 02:06:59 PM
Simon, about the beta-cross laps. Under what conditions have you done this, in the morning under fasting conditions? And did you do this this when you had shin bone pain? What about the timing with POIS, were your POIS symptoms at the time of testing minimized or maximized?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 14, 2018, 07:06:53 PM
Update: Probiotics only seemed to have a minor positive effect on me but worsened some symptoms in higher doses so I had to stop.

I took a supplement called "Zenflore" that contains a single probiotic strain mixed with B vitamins. I believe Nicotinamide (active form of Niacin) may have helped me. Next week, I am going to try the Coenzyme B Complex that was recommended by Kurtosis called "Now Co-Enzyme B-Complex".

Muon, I didn't do anything special for the beta-ctx, do it whenever you want. I usually went to the laboratory around 11:30AM. I think this issue is to do with vitamins and minerals. I will get the beta-ctx retested if the B Complex cures my symptoms.

My hope is that once I take the active/co-enzyme form of B vitamins, then maybe I can take a probiotic without getting symptoms and I can also take a Full Spectrum amino acid supplement to rebuild some of the damage to my body.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Limejuice on December 14, 2018, 11:28:58 PM
Simon, are you taking a high quality (expense and refrigerated) probiotic with at least 80 billion active cultures?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 15, 2018, 06:32:58 AM
Simon, are you taking a high quality (expense and refrigerated) probiotic with at least 80 billion active cultures?

I was taking the 250 billion cfu from Custom probiotics. Seemed to make my skin much clearer but made symptoms worse at higher doses.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 22, 2018, 01:43:45 PM
Simon your Aldosterone level is off the chart. Have you ever considered taking Losartan?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Losartan

About the vit B, I actually got elevated active forms of vit B6 en B12. Did not expect this.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 23, 2018, 12:02:05 AM
The steroids aldosterone and cortisol are the body's response to high stress from the severe gut dysbiosis I'm dealing with. I'm looking at some soil based probiotics that don't produce histamine or lactic acid as I think I have an overgrowth of such bacteria which is causing a burning sensation in my limbs and other problems. There are some species like bacillus clausii and bacillus subtilis that I am going to be trying. I read that bacillus coaglans is bad because it produces lactic acid and histamine so avoid that one.

One of the problems with small intestine dysbiosis is malabsorption of vitamins and nutrients, maybe that explains my tinnitus and dry eyes. Muon, I seem to remember reading that some people with B12 deficiency have normal or high blood levels but when they use a sublingual B12 spray or injections, they find their symptoms improve. I think most tests are not very accurate personally because I get some improvements from a multivitamin and my vitamin tests were all good. They say B12 deficiency is best measured by Homocysteine and Methylmalonic acid.

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 24, 2018, 06:06:57 AM
High active B12 could be caused by my poor digestion. Stomach acid breaks down B12. Another option is an overgrowth of B12-producing bacteria.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 24, 2018, 09:45:29 PM
I've been systematically trying probiotics this year and here is my progress:

Lactic Acid Bacteria

Yeast Probiotics

Soil Based Organisms - I am testing Bacillus Species first
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on December 24, 2018, 10:11:49 PM
I've been systematically trying probiotics this year and here is my progress:

Lactic Acid Bacteria
  • Lactobacillus - Generally bad reaction, makes my legs burn. Lactobacillus produces large amounts of lactic acid and a lot of strains make histamines so I guess they are worsening my dysbiosis.
  • Bifidobacteria - The reaction varies in intensity and has some good/bad effects. Ultimately, this is not the cure for me as I can only handle a small dose. Doesn't seem to trigger any histamine issues like the Lactobacillus.

Yeast Probiotics
  • S. Boulardii - Possibly worsened symptoms, may need to revisit this and try again.

Soil Based Organisms - I am testing Bacillus Species first
  • Probiogen Daily Complex (containing S. Boulardii, B. Clausii, B. Coaglans, B.Subtilis) - Heavy histamine and lactic acid reaction, I believe B. Coaglans may be the culprit.
  • Normaflore/Enterogermina (4 strains of B. Clausii) - I bought the Hungarian version Normaflore off Ebay, it's a probiotic that has been used in continental Europe for around 60 years. It is popular in Italy and Hungary apparently but was never sold in the UK. I will be trying the Normaflore in the coming days. I am hopeful that B. Clausii does not produce much lactic acid or histamines.
  • Latero-flora (B. Laterosporus) - I have yet to purchase this one.
  • B. Subtilis HU58 (sold by Microbiome Labs) - I have yet to purchase this one.
  • Prescript Assist - This will likely be the last one I try when I run out of options. People seemed to rate it highly but a year ago, the manufacturers changed the formula substantially for some unknown reason and now a lot of people hate it. How frustrating.
  • Megaflore - I will probably avoid this one as it contains histamine and lactic acid producers.
Since 4 months I drink a lot of kefir (fermentated milk). It contains Lactobacillus. When I saw your post I googled kefir and urticaria. Because since 2 months I have hives. I thought maybe because of the kefir. But I read this research that they treat patients with lactobacillus probiotics.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27608474
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 24, 2018, 10:47:09 PM
Kefir also has milk proteins that can trigger allergies. I am unable to tolerate any fermented food or drinks.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to such research, we all have different gut bacteria. Hives could be caused by different types of dysbiosis. I think it's best to just buy different probiotics and see which one works.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on December 24, 2018, 11:03:42 PM
Kefir also has milk proteins that can trigger allergies. I am unable to tolerate any fermented food or drinks.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to such research, we all have different gut bacteria. Hives could be caused by different types of dysbiosis. I think it's best to just buy different probiotics and see which one works.
I use VSL#3. It does not help a lot. And it is expensive. I am gonna use another Dutch prebiotics that contains: Pau d 'Arco herb, Sodium caprylate, Grapefruit seed extract, Garlic extract, papaya enzyme and Biotin. And probiotics with: Bifidobacterium bifidum, bifidobacterium animalis lactis, bifidobacterium L longum, lacto bacillus thamnosus, lactobacillus plantarum, lactococcus lactis, lactobacillus paracasei, lactobacillus acidophilus, lactobacillus salivarius, enterococcus faecium.

I think my hives is caused by antibiotics, candida and dysbiosis.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on December 25, 2018, 06:13:25 AM
i don't know what we can think about candida albicans. I had made some searchs on this ten years ago without scientific evidence.
Now, some serious sources seem to think this probelm is real and common.

But whatever i think, the gut microbiota is an absolute key factor of a lot of disease.
I'm always convinced that my Pois is a dopamine problem and 50% of dopamine is built in gut...
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on December 25, 2018, 12:33:17 PM
i don't know what we can think about candida albicans. I had made some searchs on this ten years ago without scientific evidence.
Now, some serious sources seem to think this probelm is real and common.

But whatever i think, the gut microbiota is an absolute key factor of a lot of disease.
I'm always convinced that my Pois is a dopamine problem and 50% of dopamine is built in gut...
Science and doctors recognize candida in the mouth and in the vagina/penis. The only thing they do not recognize is systemic candida and leaky gut.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on December 25, 2018, 04:53:25 PM
i don't know what we can think about candida albicans. I had made some searchs on this ten years ago without scientific evidence.
Now, some serious sources seem to think this probelm is real and common.

But whatever i think, the gut microbiota is an absolute key factor of a lot of disease.
I'm always convinced that my Pois is a dopamine problem and 50% of dopamine is built in gut...
Science and doctors recognize candida in the mouth and in the vagina/penis. The only thing they do not recognize is systemic candida and leaky gut.

I think we need to be very careful with “candida conclusions”. There is still a great deal of misunderstanding, confusion, mystery, skepticism and  doubt about the diagnosis.

b_jim, thank you for sharing your historical view about candida albicans.


Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on December 26, 2018, 12:21:04 PM
But whatever i think, the gut microbiota is an absolute key factor of a lot of disease.
I'm always convinced that my Pois is a dopamine problem and 50% of dopamine is built in gut...
A Monoamine oxidases (MAO) dysfunction plays a key factor in dopamine and other neurotransmitters. It also plays a role in urticaria.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on December 26, 2018, 03:56:58 PM
Kefir also has milk proteins that can trigger allergies. I am unable to tolerate any fermented food or drinks.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to such research, we all have different gut bacteria. Hives could be caused by different types of dysbiosis. I think it's best to just buy different probiotics and see which one works.
I stopped with kefir because it raises histamine. Also these probiotics raise histamine:
Lactobacillus bulgaricus
Lactobacillus casei
S. thermophilus
Lactobacillus delbrueckii
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 28, 2018, 12:26:05 PM
Personally, I think Candida is used too often these days, like a catch-all term for any imbalance in the body. Another boogeyman is mast cell activation which is often blamed for histamine problems. The common issue is probably general gut dysbiosis.

There is a company called Openbiome that are currently selling FMT (Faecal Microbiota Transplant) capsules to treat recurrent CDiff infections in the USA. When these FMT capsules are offered to everyone, we'll hopefully see the end of many metabolic diseases such as POIS. Keep an eye open for such treatments, current FMT clinics are still using enema FMT delivery which won't fix any issues with the small intestine. I think the small intestine is the source of most of our POIS problems and I think a lot of us have vitamin and nutrient deficiencies due to malabsorption/dysbiosis.

I have a lot of symptoms that feel like B12 deficiency such as burning legs, tinnitus, blurry vision & joint pain. I've just bought Jarrow 5000mcg sublingual B12 lozenges to see if I can absorb enough B12 through my mouth lining. Oral B12 is notoriously difficult to process for some people either because of autoimmune disease or dysbiosis, so I may have to look at self-injecting B12.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 28, 2018, 01:42:37 PM
I don't think dysbiosis is the core problem if that is present. Sympathetic overactivity inhibits gut motility leading to dysbiosis and absorption problems. This is also related to parameters like Ang II, ROS, Aldosteron etc. Your aldosterone is elevated as well and I suspect that one might be more important than people think it is and could give a clue about how the sympathetic nervous system is functioning. With other words if this is the case and there is a dysbiosis present due to a dysfunction of the SNS/PSNS then both should be treated at the same time. You have mentioned that elevated aldosterone might be the stress response from the gut dysbiosis but it might be the other way around.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 28, 2018, 02:14:56 PM
I don't think dysbiosis is the core problem if that is present. Sympathetic overactivity inhibits gut motility leading to dysbiosis and absorption problems. This is also related to parameters like Ang II, ROS, Aldosteron etc. Your aldosterone is elevated as well and I suspect that one might be more important than people think it is and could give a clue about how the sympathetic nervous system is functioning. With other words if this is the case and there is a dysbiosis present due to a dysfunction of the SNS/PSNS then both should be treated at the same time. You have mentioned that elevated aldosterone might be the stress response from the gut dysbiosis but it might be the other way around.

I'm not sure that my Aldosterone is still elevated, it is a steroid that is produced alongside cortisol and I measured both only during an intense flare of symptoms.

I have since measured my cortisol a few times and it is much lower so I must assume that these steroid hormones are the body's response to extreme stresses. I've recently had improvements taking a multivitamin but some issues taking a strong activate B Complex. I suspect that taking oral methylfolate is actually worsening a possible B12 deficiency because B12 is so difficult to absorb from oral multivitamins.

Muon, I think I remember reading that sometimes your arms or legs burn, is that correct? Do you have other vitamin deficiency symptoms like tinnitus, vision problems, palpitations, joint aches etc?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 28, 2018, 02:39:50 PM
But have you measured your aldosterone level again? It could be elevated independent of Cortisol levels.

Yea my lower part of the arms can burn but that symptom has been significantly improved over the last year. I have no idea why. Palpitations and joint aches are still present yes. I had blurry vision problems in the past they are more rare now. Btw I have other problems with my eyes now. I had a dead pixel in my vield of view for a couple of years and still have but other spots are developing now in that same eye and become really problematic, it's my left eye. When I'm looking at white backgrounds and moving my eye I'm seeing the spots clearly moving and it's progressing. My right eye is also responding to POIS more frequent at the moment like there is increased tension inside. My GP says there is nothing you can do about these symptoms and does not refer me to an eye specialist.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 28, 2018, 02:52:27 PM
No, I am finished with tests for now. I am testing supplements instead. I will retest Aldosterone when I have fixed my symptoms.

Muon, it really does sound like you have a serious B12 deficiency or something similar like B12 cofactors. Please read about B12 symptoms and how the standard blood tests are not reliable.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on December 28, 2018, 04:07:26 PM
Personally, I think Candida is used too often these days, like a catch-all term for any imbalance in the body. Another boogeyman is mast cell activation which is often blamed for histamine problems. The common issue is probably general gut dysbiosis.

There is a company called Openbiome that are currently selling FMT (Faecal Microbiota Transplant) capsules to treat recurrent CDiff infections in the USA. When these FMT capsules are offered to everyone, we'll hopefully see the end of many metabolic diseases such as POIS. Keep an eye open for such treatments, current FMT clinics are still using enema FMT delivery which won't fix any issues with the small intestine. I think the small intestine is the source of most of our POIS problems and I think a lot of us have vitamin and nutrient deficiencies due to malabsorption/dysbiosis.

I have a lot of symptoms that feel like B12 deficiency such as burning legs, tinnitus, blurry vision & joint pain. I've just bought Jarrow 5000mcg sublingual B12 lozenges to see if I can absorb enough B12 through my mouth lining. Oral B12 is notoriously difficult to process for some people either because of autoimmune disease or dysbiosis, so I may have to look at self-injecting B12.
With all due respect, general gut dysbiosis is no less "catch all term" or a "boogyman" than Mast Cells. If you want, go to the Mast Cell ("Activation") Disorders forum on Facebook and see for your self 100's of posts of people complaining  of exact same symptoms as we do. Many of them say they get flares after orgasm. Another clue is that if you look at the cascade of symptoms found in POIS sufferers and the locations of Mast Cells in the human body you will find that they correlate.
At this point I have never been as sure of the involvement of Mast Cells in POIS as ever.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 28, 2018, 07:17:04 PM
Well you're entitled to your opinion about the mast cell stuff. I hope you eventually get the proof you're looking for.

Here's some B12 symptoms for anyone that's interested:

Mental/Psychological Symptoms
depression
anxiety
apathy
memory problem
disorientation
dementia
psychosis
hallucination
sleep disturbances
personality disorder

Physical Symptoms
anemia
intestinal damage
nervous damage
muscle tremor
lack of coordination, unsteady gait, impaired fine motor skills
dizziness, fainting
feeling cold, tingling sensation and numbness
paralysis
arteriosclerosis
heart attack
stroke
impaired vision, retinal damage
spastic disorders
incontinence
infertility

Source: https://www.b12-vitamin.com/symptoms/
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on December 28, 2018, 07:32:04 PM
And I suppose B12 suddenly drops when we are having an orgasm? But when we're off of orgasm it gets regained?
You are correct that B12 deficiency has these symptoms but it is no proof that it is connected to POIS.
You are not seeing the bigger picture Simon, this is a Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome, it has to be related somehow to orgasm and ejaculation.
Like I have no problem what so ever with people suggesting their own theories and explanations. But when you're calling out other theories and especially calling the mast cell theory a "boogyman". That's just uncool. MCAS is the closest we've eve gotten towards understanding POIS.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 28, 2018, 08:07:04 PM
Please you create your own topic if you don't like what I'm saying on the thread that I started.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on December 28, 2018, 09:30:57 PM
Please you create your own topic if you don't like what I'm saying on the thread that I started.
Ok great, I'm going to criticize your own theory and when you dispute my criticism, I'll tell you to F off to your own thread. Classy...
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on December 28, 2018, 11:29:53 PM

Personally, I think Candida is used too often these days, like a catch-all term for any imbalance in the body.


I agree, Simon.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on December 29, 2018, 10:31:57 AM
PRO :
- b12 is present in sperm
- lack of b12 is linked to PE
- b12 is easy to test in blood

CONS :
- liver stocks a lot of b12 so it seems impossible to have a quick deficit explaining Pois symptoms
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 29, 2018, 10:37:03 AM
There hasn't been a single piece of evidence indicating a B12 deficiency in poisers.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on December 29, 2018, 10:41:26 AM
On the topic of b12 and folate my blood tests show my folate is borderline deficient and b12 is normal however when I try methyl folate it gives me brain fog. I have tried normal b12 and folic acid which didn't make me feel anything from both or even after a few weeks. I have just tried one methyl b12 today and my head feels a lot better than it usually does. I will update progress in a week.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 29, 2018, 10:48:26 AM
Perhaps this is something in your interest Simon. Bacterial products, like LPS, trigger toll-like receptors which can cause a state of inflammation. You could take a look at TLR4 antagonists or other TLR type antagonists since different species including fungals and viruses target different TLRs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLR4#Antagonists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll-like_receptor
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 29, 2018, 12:13:55 PM
There hasn't been a single piece of evidence indicating a B12 deficiency in poisers.

I've read about plenty of people on this forum who improved by taking a B Complex, Kurtosis made some interesting posts. B12 is different though as some people just can't absorb it from oral multivitamins.

Perhaps this is something in your interest Simon. Bacterial products, like LPS, trigger toll-like receptors which can cause a state of inflammation. You could take a look at TLR4 antagonists or other TLR type antagonists since different species including fungals and viruses target different TLRs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLR4#Antagonists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll-like_receptor

There is an interesting study about university students who were fed McDonalds and had a high inflammatory response. Those that were given a probiotic with the meal had normal inflammation markers.

PRO :
- b12 is present in sperm
- lack of b12 is linked to PE
- b12 is easy to test in blood

CONS :
- liver stocks a lot of b12 so it seems impossible to have a quick deficit explaining Pois symptoms

b_Jim, from what I'm reading on other forums, people seem to think that if you have issues with processing B12 in the gut then your body cannot properly use the B12 stores in your liver, not sure if that's true or not (see links below). Some people also have a Transcobalamin II deficiency which reduces the ability of absorbed B12 to get into human cells where it can be used.

https://healthunlocked.com/pasoc/posts/131928359/b12-from-the-liver-to-the-body
https://healthunlocked.com/pasoc/posts/132180345/b12-deficiency-and-liver-stores-of-b12

Ultimately, the most accurate blood tests for B12 deficiency are Homocysteine and Methylmalonic Acid. The body needs B12 in order to process those 2 substances, therefore they are the best indicator of a B12 deficiency. You can have very high levels of active B12 but if Homocysteine or Methylmalonic Acid are elevated then the chances are that your body cannot use that active B12 efficiently.

On the topic of b12 and folate my blood tests show my folate is borderline deficient and b12 is normal however when I try methyl folate it gives me brain fog. I have tried normal b12 and folic acid which didn't make me feel anything from both or even after a few weeks. I have just tried one methyl b12 today and my head feels a lot better than it usually does. I will update progress in a week.

Iwillbeatthis, you may already know this but you can have something called a MTHFR mutation which means your body can only use the active Methyl versions of B12 and Folate. I'm finding that I react badly to high Folate foods and Folate is a cofactor for B12 in the methionine-homocysteine-folate-b12 cycle. I'm wondering if eating high Folate foods can increase the body's demand for B12 and worsen symptoms.


Everyone, I'm not saying we all have B12 deficiencies or that B12 deficiency causes POIS. This is just one avenue of many that I am considering since a lot of the symptoms match up. If you want my opinion on what causes POIS, I still think it is from gut dysbiosis but if a B12 deficiency (resulting from dysbiosis) causes most of my symptoms then I will just fix the low B12 for now and wait for a way to fix the dysbiosis. B12 is used in many bodily processes, you need B vitamins in order to make hormones like testosterone.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on December 29, 2018, 02:30:18 PM
Everyone, I'm not saying we all have B12 deficiencies or that B12 deficiency causes POIS. This is just one avenue of many that I am considering since a lot of the symptoms match up. If you want my opinion on what causes POIS, I still think it is from gut dysbiosis but if a B12 deficiency (resulting from dysbiosis) causes most of my symptoms then I will just fix the low B12 for now and wait for a way to fix the dysbiosis. B12 is used in many bodily processes, you need B vitamins in order to make hormones like testosterone.

Again, you are referring to generalities instead of focusing on the Orgasm/Ejaculation mechanism.
How ever, B12 could be a factor in Mast Cell Destabilization, similar to how Vit D3 deficient Mast Cell patients take Vit D3 supplements. This is why extensive tests and supplementation should be done by POISers to make sure that we have covered as many areas as possible.
Perhaps some of us do actually suffer from poor B12 absorption and processing which in turn leads to mast cells destabilization when Mast Cells are exposed to specific triggers ( Orgasm in our case ).
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 29, 2018, 04:11:35 PM
Simon i agree with you in a lot of stuff you say.
Yeah, diagnsed myself SIBO (small intesine bloated, lowering my life quality in big) , sibo can cosue guts disbiosis an that lead to dysbiosis, leaky gut...
an those leke guts lead to cronic inflamation in body and autoimunity.
As you mention when kurtosis did walking on earth( i mean in kurtosis times),
this stuff is mention a lot, like b vitamins- https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.msg7846#msg7846

Conected this with diferent mutations that we hawe mentioned here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.15
Hiden active cronic infection could be couse of all this.
Some infetions can mimic (cheated our imune system)...
Some can hide, an go in cyst form when you atac them with
antibiotic.

From all this -imunocompromised, imune system in alert state(my opinion
that ours imunity reacting on proteins that shouldn,t be ataced by him), becuse
of that posible reaction on our sperm,   body in cronic inflamation,
that lead to MCAS , i men mc go wild on things that shoulnd be in  helty people.
Then we are in loop, vicios cycle- Posible cronic infection(Hiden), cronic inflamation(from sibo, leaky gut), imune go wild from that, MCAS from that,
big amount of histamine an odhers inflamatory mesingers(imunity ewan wilder),
put in this mutations we hawe to recycles histamine( we cant recaycle),
and you hawe pois from this!


Cronic infections ) SIBO ) leky gut ) gut dysbiosis ) cronic inflamation )
imunocompromised )autoimunity ) MCAS )
cant clear histamine genetics ) hi histamine )
histamine intolerance )  POIS


- imunity wild from all this-
racting on proteins, like our sperms , reacting on our nerwes (atacing our
nerwes in brain to and body), Mc reacting in our brains(hi histamine and cytokines...and disturbing work of our glands in brain like HPA axis...
Put stres from all this, and put stres from ordinary modern life an you hawe
))))) pois.





Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 29, 2018, 04:30:18 PM
Simon i agree with you in a lot of stuff you say.
Yeah, diagnsed myself SIBO (small intesine bloated, lowering my life quality in big) , sibo can cosue guts disbiosis an that lead to dysbiosis, leaky gut...
an those leke guts lead to cronic inflamation in body and autoimunity.
As you mention when kurtosis did walking on earth( i mean in kurtosis times),
this stuff is mention a lot, like b vitamins- https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.msg7846#msg7846

Conected this with diferent mutations that we hawe mentioned here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.15
Hiden active cronic infection could be couse of all this.
Some infetions can mimic (cheated our imune system)...
Some can hide, an go in cyst form when you atac them with
antibiotic.

From all this -imunocompromised, imune system in alert state(my opinion
that ours imunity reacting on proteins that shouldn,t be ataced by him), becuse
of that posible reaction on our sperm,   body in cronic inflamation,
that lead to MCAS , i men mc go wild on things that shoulnd be in  helty people.
Then we are in loop, vicios cycle- Posible cronic infection(Hiden), cronic inflamation(from sibo, leaky gut), imune go wild from that, MCAS from that,
big amount of histamine an odhers inflamatory mesingers(imunity ewan wilder),
put in this mutations we hawe to recycles histamine( we cant recaycle),
and you hawe pois from this!

Cronic infections ) leky gut ) gut dysbiosis ) MCAS )
cant clear histamine genetics ) hi histamine )
histamine intolerance )  POIS-cronic fatigue etc...

- imunity wild from all this-
racting on proteins, like our sperms , reacting on our nerwes (atacing our
nerwes in brain to and body), Mc reacting in our brains(hi histamine and cytokines...and disturbing work of our glands in brain like HPA axis...
Put stres from all this, and put stres from ordinary modern life an you hawe
))))) pois.

Yeah, the gut ecosystem causes a lot of problems when it is damaged and unbalanced. I am waiting for FMT pills to be offered, they are limited to CDiff infections currently:
https://www.openbiome.org/press-releases/2015/10/28/fecal-transplant-pills-large-scale-production-begins-following-successful-dosing-study

This is a really useful post about the B-Complex method including posts by Kurtosis:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1059.msg9571

The last post by Kurtosis suggested he had cured himself by fixing his SIBO. He still continued taking a multivitamin and some other stuff:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1461.msg13620
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on December 29, 2018, 05:11:58 PM
Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 29, 2018, 05:43:52 PM
Simon i agree with you in a lot of stuff you say.
Yeah, diagnsed myself SIBO (small intesine bloated, lowering my life quality in big) , sibo can cosue guts disbiosis an that lead to dysbiosis, leaky gut...
an those leke guts lead to cronic inflamation in body and autoimunity.
As you mention when kurtosis did walking on earth( i mean in kurtosis times),
this stuff is mention a lot, like b vitamins- https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=468.msg7846#msg7846

Conected this with diferent mutations that we hawe mentioned here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.15
Hiden active cronic infection could be couse of all this.
Some infetions can mimic (cheated our imune system)...
Some can hide, an go in cyst form when you atac them with
antibiotic.

From all this -imunocompromised, imune system in alert state(my opinion
that ours imunity reacting on proteins that shouldn,t be ataced by him), becuse
of that posible reaction on our sperm,   body in cronic inflamation,
that lead to MCAS , i men mc go wild on things that shoulnd be in  helty people.
Then we are in loop, vicios cycle- Posible cronic infection(Hiden), cronic inflamation(from sibo, leaky gut), imune go wild from that, MCAS from that,
big amount of histamine an odhers inflamatory mesingers(imunity ewan wilder),
put in this mutations we hawe to recycles histamine( we cant recaycle),
and you hawe pois from this!

- imunity wild from all this-
racting on proteins, like our sperms , reacting on our nerwes (atacing our
nerwes in brain to and body), Mc reacting in our brains(hi histamine and cytokines...and disturbing work of our glands in brain like HPA axis...
Put stres from all this, and put stres from ordinary modern life an you hawe
))))) pois.

Cronic infections ) SIBO )leky gut ) gut dysbiosis ) cronic inflamation )
imunocompromised )autoimunity ) MCAS )
cant clear histamine genetics ) hi histamine )
histamine intolerance )  POIS

I think that here somwere  :) root couse or non root couse of pois is hiding.

Forget to mention that about b12 etc, in sibo bacteria is fedeng with
b12 ...

POIS expleined , close the  forum  8)  ;D  ???
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on December 29, 2018, 09:04:39 PM
My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 30, 2018, 08:51:06 AM
Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

No problem.

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

B12 is a difficult vitamin. If the stomach is damaged then you may not be able to absorb enough through pills. If you want to spend the money to check your B12 properly, there are 4 useful blood tests: Homocysteine, Methylmalonic Acid, Parietal Cell Antibodies, Intrinsic Factor Antibodies.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 30, 2018, 09:28:55 AM
As HopeOneDay and Muon have said, there is another component to dysbiosis relating to inflammation. LPS is one example:
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/lipopolysaccharides/

There are a number of supplements to try including: Ginger Root Powder, Resveratrol, Omega 3, Tumeric with black pepper.

I found this useful quote about ginger root, it suggests gut inflammation can be the cause of nutrient deficiencies:

"Ginger has classically been used to improve the digestion process. Nine different substances have been found that stimulate serotonin receptors in the gut which provides benefits to the gastrointestinal system. This reduces gut related inflammation and enhances nutrient absorption."

Source: https://drjockers.com/10-ways-ginger-improves-digestion/

To summarise my progress so far:
- Different probiotics have not done a great deal as my body reacts badly to anything above a fraction of a teaspoon.
- A prebiotic called Bimuno helped when symptoms were at their worst but doesn't do much when symptoms are lessened.
- Taking an "Alive! Child's Multivitamin" has improved things further, it doesn't contain calcium like other products, which is a good thing. I take 2 a day currently.
- Cod liver oil seems to be a mild anti-inflammatory but can irritate the gut, not sure about taking it any further.
- An activated B Complex seemed to do more harm than good, I think it triggers inflammation.
- B12 sublinguals did not have any dramatic effect, may have helped but not enough.

So, my search moves on to natural anti-inflammatories. I will be starting with Ginger Root, this is both an anti-inflammatory and an anti-microbial, it can hopefully reduce any imbalance in my gut leading to lower inflammation and greater nutrient absorption. If the ginger fails, I will try Tumeric with added black pepper.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on December 30, 2018, 10:10:30 AM
Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

No problem.

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

B12 is a difficult vitamin. If the stomach is damaged then you may not be able to absorb enough through pills. If you want to spend the money to check your B12 properly, there are 4 useful blood tests: Homocysteine, Methylmalonic Acid, Parietal Cell Antibodies, Intrinsic Factor Antibodies.
I am only checked on normal vitamine b12. I read on a Dutch webiste for people with a b12 problem which test you have to do. My hospital does all the 4 tests so it will be covered by my insurrance. I will ask my doctor if he prescribe me those tests. I have a family member who has a b12 problem. He uses injections.

The problem with ginger is that it has high histamine. I used to eat it it a few weeks ago for my candida. But I stopped because my histamine problem is bigger than my candida problem. Althought those two maybe are connected.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 30, 2018, 10:56:38 AM
Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

No problem.

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

B12 is a difficult vitamin. If the stomach is damaged then you may not be able to absorb enough through pills. If you want to spend the money to check your B12 properly, there are 4 useful blood tests: Homocysteine, Methylmalonic Acid, Parietal Cell Antibodies, Intrinsic Factor Antibodies.
I am only checked on normal vitamine b12. I read on a Dutch webiste for people with a b12 problem which test you have to do. My hospital does all the 4 tests so it will be covered by my insurrance. I will ask my doctor if he prescribe me those tests. I have a family member who has a b12 problem. He uses injections.

The problem with ginger is that it has high histamine. I used to eat it it a few weeks ago for my candida. But I stopped because my histamine problem is bigger than my candida problem. Althought those two maybe are connected.

That's interesting about the ginger having histamine, some people say it is anti-histamine. I'll have to try it and see what reaction I get.

Something to be aware of when taking blood tests is that taking supplements can mess with the result, taking Vitamin B7 (Biotin) seems to break thyroid tests. It is best to stop all supplements 2 weeks before having any blood test.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on December 30, 2018, 11:52:38 AM
Simon, thanks for delving into this topic in depth.

No problem.

My vitamine b12 used to be low 2 years ago. So I took supplements. In February my b12 was 476. According to my hospital that was too high. But their max is 450. I read that 450 should the minimum. I stopped with the pills in February. Maybe now my gut is distroyed by antibiotics it is harder for my system to get B12. So I orderded B12. That is because I am sick for two months. I have cold hands, feet and legs. First I thought it was because prostatitis, then because of urticaria. But maybe B12 is also involved.

B12 is a difficult vitamin. If the stomach is damaged then you may not be able to absorb enough through pills. If you want to spend the money to check your B12 properly, there are 4 useful blood tests: Homocysteine, Methylmalonic Acid, Parietal Cell Antibodies, Intrinsic Factor Antibodies.
I am only checked on normal vitamine b12. I read on a Dutch webiste for people with a b12 problem which test you have to do. My hospital does all the 4 tests so it will be covered by my insurrance. I will ask my doctor if he prescribe me those tests. I have a family member who has a b12 problem. He uses injections.

The problem with ginger is that it has high histamine. I used to eat it it a few weeks ago for my candida. But I stopped because my histamine problem is bigger than my candida problem. Althought those two maybe are connected.

That's interesting about the ginger having histamine, some people say it is anti-histamine. I'll have to try it and see what reaction I get.

Something to be aware of when taking blood tests is that taking supplements can mess with the result, taking Vitamin B7 (Biotin) seems to break thyroid tests. It is best to stop all supplements 2 weeks before having any blood test.
Yes maybe the last time I only stopped taking vitamin b12 a day before the blood test. Maybe a b12 problem causes my urticaria.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15736714

I do not know if there is a link between b12 and POIS. But I believe that if you are feeling better outside POIS your POIS symptoms will also be less worse. If beside POIS you are healthy you can take more.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 30, 2018, 03:52:00 PM
Yes maybe the last time I only stopped taking vitamin b12 a day before the blood test. Maybe a b12 problem causes my urticaria.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15736714

I do not know if there is a link between b12 and POIS. But I believe that if you are feeling better outside POIS your POIS symptoms will also be less worse. If beside POIS you are healthy you can take more.

I think the link between nutrient deficiencies and POIS is a seriously imbalanced gut. At one point when my symptoms were very bad, I developed arthritic pain in my fingers and for months afterwards I had ridges on my finger nails suggesting a nutrient deficiency. There must be a link between inflammation and nutrient deficiencies.

I was reading the posts on another forum by someone calling themselves "akt1", they too believe the source of these issues is in the gut. Interestingly, this person has tried many things including an activated B Complex but they seem to have settled on Ginger Root as the best supplement to reduce/eliminate symptoms, they also use some Hemp. Here's a link to their posts:

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1svllr32vumctdkc4rb8mmlo06&action=profile;area=showposts;u=40634

I will hopefully be trying Ginger tomorrow.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 03, 2019, 12:49:31 AM
So, I've now tested Ginger and also Tumeric with Black Pepper. They didn't seem to have any significant beneficial effects and I think the Turmeric may have made things worse.

The only thing that I think has really helped me is a child's multivitamin called "Alive! Children's Multi-Vitamin and Minerals". In addition to the vitamins/minerals, it contains some fruit/vegetable extracts and citrus bioflavonoids. I react badly to an activated B Complex and don't feel like other multivitamins help me so I am assuming the bioflavonoids and fruit extracts in this product are what is helping me.

Here's a really information link about Bioflavonoids, they are basically very strong antioxidants and can do things like reduce histamine:
http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/ABSTRACTS/bioflavonoids.shtml

Those that have read my medical results post will have seen that I have high levels of an enzyme called Superoxide Dismutase which indicates high oxidative stress & inflammation. Here's the link to my results post:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995#msg24995

I'm really hoping it is the Bioflavonoids in the multivitamin that has improved my symptoms because I have ordered a load of polyphenol/flavonoid supplements including Quercetin (with Bromelain), Red Wine Grape Extract, Trans-Resveratrol, Grape Seed Extract, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Citrus Bioflavonoids & Pycnogenol (Pine Bark Extract).

It will take me a while to work through these supplements but feel free to chime in if you have any questions. My working theory of POIS is that it is gut dysbiosis, an overgrowth of gram-negative bacteria which produce too much lipopolysaccharides (LPS) which then causes oxidative stress, vitamin malabsorption and probably mitochondrial dysfunction as well. The solution should be finding the right antioxidants. I had a bad reaction to NAC and Glutathione a year ago so my focus is on natural plant-based antioxidants.

One final thing to be aware of is that some supplements (like green tea extract) can be harmful, it is worth monitoring your liver enzymes and kidney function or else you can end up with organ failure like this poor person:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45971416
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on January 03, 2019, 04:57:36 AM
I get sick from vit B complex as well. Flavonoids are natural mast cell stabilizers. We have covered this extensively on this forum. Use the search bar to look for discussions about mast cell activation disorders and flavonoids.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 03, 2019, 08:32:39 AM
I get sick from vit B complex as well. Flavonoids are natural mast cell stabilizers. We have covered this extensively on this forum. Use the search bar to look for discussions about mast cell activation disorders and flavonoids.

What's your experience with supplements Muon? Anything give you significant improvements? Flavonoids perhaps.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on January 03, 2019, 09:03:31 AM
What's your experience with supplements Muon? Anything give you significant improvements? Flavonoids perhaps.

Some slight improvements with taurine and vitamin D but not very significant. I haven't tinkered with the flavonoids yet. Tried all kinds of supplements, nothing seems to give any significant effect. Some symptoms improved over the years, the only thing I did over these years was adjusting my diet but it could be a wax and wane behaviour as well. I've got a whole list of medication I want to try like pyridostigmine, selective beta2 blockers, TLR2/4 blockers, High dose purified CBD, losartan, Neuroprotek, all kinds of diets etc.. I can start with those or continue with blood tests. I'm thinking about doing the latter and don't want medicine to interfere with the tests.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 03, 2019, 09:35:38 PM
I found a big coincidence today, 2 different supplements that I was taking for vitamins/minerals actually contain polyphenols and that may be the reason they helped me instead of the vitamin/mineral content. I already talked about the multivitamin that had citrus bioflavonoids and some vegetable/fruit extracts but in my pursuit to fix my dry eyes, I went searching for an Omega 3 supplement.

Over the Christmas period, I have been experimenting with Omega 3 because part of my symptoms are very dry eyes. I took a high dose Omega 3 supplement called "Vegepa" which seemed to help the dry eyes but it caused me worrying gut pain and possibly some blurry vision. I then switched to another form of Omega 3 called Flaxseed Oil which my gut tolerated, however it produced a delayed strong histamine reaction that lasted for hours.

The benefits I've had from Cod liver oil and flaxseed are very good. They improve my dry eyes and interestingly at least one of them also seems to build the missing fat padding under my eyes and in my hands/feet. I woke up one morning after switching to the flaxseed and there was a very noticeable lump of fat under the skin on my cheekbone and it has gradually spread out into the area where I was missing fat and the underlying blue veins were previously very visible. I guess the loss of fat under the skin is from some kind of oxidative stress damage much like it can damage collagen, it also does something to lipids like a lipodystrophy.

I was taking a few things at the time and didn't know for certain what had caused the fat deposition so I ended up stopping the flaxseed because the histamine reactions were annoying me.

Fast-forward a week, the fat under my eyes has stopped improving and I feel like I've lost some of my recent progress. I started researching flaxseeds which I had originally bought for the Omega 3 and I read that flaxseed is a powerful "Lignan". I read the following article and found out that Lignans are a class of Polyphenol alongside the Flavonoids which I previously wrote about over the last couple days.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/12/14/polyphenols-benefits.aspx

So...I'm very hopeful that Polyphenols are going to be the cure for me. The lignan (flaxseed) effects are different to the flavonoids though so I guess I need to supplement something from each class of polyphenol.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 20, 2019, 04:48:02 PM
It's been a couple weeks since my last post and I made a mistake in saying that the flaxseed helped. I started taking the flaxseed again but wasn't seeing any improvement in the fat loss under my eyes so I had to go back and look at my food & symptom diary.

A day before originally starting the flaxseed, I took a probiotic called "BB536" which is a strain of Bifidobacterium Longum. I have started taking the BB536 again recently and within 2 days of the first dose, it appears that the fat loss under my eyes is again improving so there is a little lag time between taking it and seeing physical improvements. BB536 has a reputation for boosting other beneficial bacteria so I am hopeful that there will be further improvements. I am also taking a prebiotic called Bimuno with the BB536 to make sure my new bacteria are fed well.

I will provide another update in future when I have tested the BB536 over a period of a few weeks. I still suspect that some of my issues (like the tinnitus) are from a B12 deficiency, I have no desire to self-inject B12 yet.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Limejuice on January 21, 2019, 01:04:17 AM
Hi Simon,

I haven't read the entire thread but you may have a dysbiosis like SIBO.  Check out the probiotic strain called Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG.  The latest research (within the past 2 years) shows break through results with this strain (it may be the only strain you need).
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on January 21, 2019, 02:20:16 PM
Simon, how much time was there between your last orgasm prior to the IL-10 test and the blood collection for the IL-10 test?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 22, 2019, 09:17:58 PM
Hi Simon,

I haven't read the entire thread but you may have a dysbiosis like SIBO.  Check out the probiotic strain called Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG.  The latest research (within the past 2 years) shows break through results with this strain (it may be the only strain you need).

Hi limejuice. Yes, my thoughts are that I am dealing with a severe dysbiosis and loss of good bacteria.

I've had to avoid all Lactobacillus because it seems to make my legs burn a lot more. I believe I have some severe vitamin deficiencies that I need to take care of before I start rebuilding my gut. A lot of my symptoms like burning legs, tinnitus & blurry vision seem like B12 deficiency.

Thanks for the reminder about the Lacto GG, it is one that is highly recommended by a lot of people. I will hopefully take it when I fix this leg burning problem.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 22, 2019, 09:44:31 PM
Simon, how much time was there between your last orgasm prior to the IL-10 test and the blood collection for the IL-10 test?

About 2 weeks. To be quite honest, I'm not sure my condition is like most people's here, an orgasm doesn't always make things worse. The problems only really happen if I have more than 2 O's in a week, it's a cumulative type.

I've just started taking a high dose B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 1000 microgram tablet, I took 2 tablets today (2000 micrograms). I've been reading that the high-dose tablets can actually be more effective than B12 injections. I was previously taking a B12 methylcobalamin sublingual tablet but that didn't seem to help.

It does feel like the B12 tablets have improved my tinnitus but my legs still burn. From what I've read, it can take a month before the B12 supplementation produces noticeable results so I will wait and see what is fixed after 1 month on these B12 tablets.

From my blood test results, you may remember that my thyroid was a little underactive as well. The TSH was elevated but there was no sign of any autoimmune antibodies. A few years ago, when I was trying to find out why the TSH was so high, I was talking to someone else online that had similar results and he said that he had low B12. He also said he had some sexual impotence which I do not have problems with, he was looking at testosterone. B vitamin deficiencies can cause low testosterone.

Anyway, I've long suspected that these gut issues cause severe vitamin and mineral deficiencies. I think B12 is a big issue for me but I am also wondering about other nutrients used for metabolic processes and thyroid hormone production. This is the next product I am thinking about ordering:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Supplements-INGREDIENTS-L-Tyrosine-supporting-SUPPLEMENTSYOU/dp/B00XW3U1ZQ/id
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 25, 2019, 10:23:33 PM
I found out today there's a name for the condition of gut bacteria that produce harmful substances like LPS, it is called "Endotoxemia":

https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2018/04/30/what-is-metabolic-endotoxemia-a-toxic-overload-from-within/

I am looking at Nitric Oxide (a form of nitro-oxidative stress) as being the main damaging product of this gut imbalance.

I am experimenting with supplements that scavenge these harmful Nitric Oxide free radicals. My main candidates for suppressing the damage are Vitamin C (with Bioflavonoids), Beta-Carotene, L-Lysine, Vitamin B12 (only suppresses Nitric Oxide in 2 forms; Cyanocobalamin and Hydroxycobalamin), Vitamin E (specifically the powerful Gamma-Tocopherol form) & possibly vitamin D3.

Once I get the oxidative stress under control with the above antioxidants, I can hopefully start rebuilding my gut with probiotics without getting horrible symptoms.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 01, 2019, 05:17:14 PM
As a further update, I've learnt of a professor named Martin Pall who believes conditions like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia & Tinnitus can all come from a common condition of excess Nitrosative Stress. I am heavily deficient in Gamma-Tocopherol which is needed to fight Nitrosative Stress so that's why I've been looking at this area.

Here's the article:
https://www.verywellhealth.com/pall-protocol-for-treating-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-716080

Here's a presentation with more information:
http://www.drmarcochover.com/ponencia2011/archivos/pall.pdf

If you look at people in the B12 deficiency forums and Facebook groups, a lot of them complain about having high levels of B12 in their blood (due to supplementation) but not getting relief from their symptoms unless they take B12 injections more frequently than their doctor prescribes. There are also people that don't respond well to certain forms of B12 and I wonder if that's because only Hydroxocobalamin (and to a lesser extent Cyanocobalamin) are effective antioxidants against Nitrosative stress.

I've been testing Gamma-Tocopherol (also fights Nitrosative stress) for 1 day so far, it's certainly not an instant fix if it's even doing anything at all. I'll probably try the Gamma-Tocopherol for a week and then move on to the Hydroxocobalamin.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on February 01, 2019, 10:07:25 PM
Interesting, Simon.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on February 03, 2019, 12:29:17 PM
Some people think a lack of choline or defects in choline metabolism play a role in POIS. Some speculate involvement of the microbiome. Here is an article in which patients alter their microbiome by dietary choline intake:
Association Between Composition of the Human Gastrointestinal Microbiome and Development of Fatty Liver With Choline Deficiency (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016508510017397)

They mention two species, you could take a look at those. Just an idea since you are into this subject.
''Variations between subjects in levels of Gammaproteobacteria and Erysipelotrichi were directly associated with changes in liver fat in each subject during choline depletion.''
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 17, 2019, 03:24:38 PM
Some people think a lack of choline or defects in choline metabolism play a role in POIS. Some speculate involvement of the microbiome. Here is an article in which patients alter their microbiome by dietary choline intake:
Association Between Composition of the Human Gastrointestinal Microbiome and Development of Fatty Liver With Choline Deficiency (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016508510017397)

They mention two species, you could take a look at those. Just an idea since you are into this subject.
''Variations between subjects in levels of Gammaproteobacteria and Erysipelotrichi were directly associated with changes in liver fat in each subject during choline depletion.''

Thanks.

Have you tried a probiotic marketed by Sanofi in Europe under the names "Enterogermina" and "Normaflore"? I think it is improving my health issues greatly, it is used to rebalance gut bacteria as it produces it's own antibiotics to kill bad bacteria. It is one of the world's oldest probiotics, it contains 4 strains of Bacillus Clausii suspended in liquid vials. Here's some research about one of the antibiotics this probiotic produces to control harmful endotoxic bacteria.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19720027

I'm fairly sure at this point that a lot of my problems are to do with a gut imbalance. I bought the Normaflore off ebay and I must warn anyone reading that I had some kind of herx when I first took it, I had to start with just 1 drop of the liquid daily and I am gradually increasing it. I'll try and work up to a full 1 vial daily and then provide an update here. I am able to have an O more frequently now without triggering bad symptoms and my tolerance for foods has improved. I also posted about a month ago that I was seeing an improvement in fat loss under my eyes. I now think that Normaflore was the cause of the improvement and no other probiotic that I've taken has caused such improvements so I must assume that Normaflore/Enterogermina is a fairly unique product in the probiotic market.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on February 17, 2019, 06:21:20 PM
Intresting, inhibit toxicity forming bacteria in guts...
This is worth to try.
Cant find it in my country.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 17, 2019, 07:20:32 PM
Intresting, inhibit toxicity forming bacteria in guts...
This is worth to try.
Cant find it in my country.

It's not even sold in the UK or US, I had to get mine off Ebay. I got the Normaflore version which they sell in Hungary.

I am also trying some cofactors, I think the Normaflore/Enterogermina may work synergistically with B. Longum BB536. Perhaps Normaflore kills the bad bacteria and the BB536 fills the space. I'm not sure about the connection yet though, I am still figuring things out.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on February 17, 2019, 07:48:54 PM
https://aac.asm.org/content/60/6/3445
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 17, 2019, 08:56:06 PM
https://aac.asm.org/content/60/6/3445

Thanks, that's the one I was looking for earlier, it talks about how the probiotic produces a natural antimicrobial called Clausin.

Here's one that talks about fixing vitamin deficiencies caused by gut imbalances:

https://www.sanofi.in/-/media/Project/One-Sanofi-Web/Websites/Asia-Pacific/Sanofi-IN/Home/science-and-innovation/for-healthcare-professionals/product-information/Enterogermina-Caps-PI-June-2018.pdf

One thing I forgot to mention is that there are different Enterogermina products so be careful if you do buy it.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 20, 2019, 09:26:30 AM
I've been reading about probiotics and there is some research about Bacteroides probiotics being the next innovation. These bacteria, which make up a large proportion of the gut, are said to improve autism-like symptoms in mice and improve mood disorders amongst other things.

I wonder if I actually need this type of bacteria. It would explain why I don't respond well to lactobacillus and bifidobacteria.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0963996918307051
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 20, 2019, 03:54:15 PM
Ok that sounds very promising are there any Bacteroides on the market yet?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 20, 2019, 04:41:37 PM
Ok that sounds very promising are there any Bacteroides on the market yet?

I don't think so but there are ways to boost the existing bacteroides in your gut. I haven't done much reading but some sources suggest goat's cheese or soy protein can be used to increase the bacteroides bacteria.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 21, 2019, 01:46:04 PM
You might also be interested in trying S. Boulardii, it's a fairly unique probiotic. It's a yeast whereas most probiotics are bacteria.

From some of the reviews and other postings that I've read, some people seem to do well when taking large doses. I'm not sure if that's a good idea consuming so much yeast but it's interesting. Here's one such post:

http://forum.dryeyezone.com/forum/community-resources/our-dry-eye-stories/16205-dry-eyes-digestive-problems-and-probiotics
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on February 21, 2019, 05:27:06 PM
Tested bulardy before 4 moonth ago, for me this probitic is useles for pois.
Maybe wil work for somewone else, who knows.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 21, 2019, 07:48:41 PM
Tested bulardy before 4 moonth ago, for me this probitic is useles for pois.
Maybe wil work for somewone else, who knows.

Yeah, it's difficult to find something that fixes all symptoms. I find some probiotics that help one symptom can then worsen other symptoms.

I am still considering having FMT done at the Taymount Clinic but I really don't like the procedure. If I exhaust all of my options, maybe I'll get desperate enough to do it.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 22, 2019, 09:49:49 AM
Found this really useful research article:
http://www.ijpsr.info/docs/IJPSR15-06-07-101.pdf

I'll summarise it as follows:
- The best probiotics are thought to be those that produce antimicrobial substances that balance the gut and kill the bad guys.
- The author compared the antimicrobial ability of S. Boulardii and B. Clausii (Normaflore/Enterogermina) probiotics against an antibiotic. The results were comparable but dependent on the dose of probiotics.
- The S. Boulardii and Enterogermina had different effects on different bacteria so it is likely better to take both at the same time to get a broad antimicrobial effect.
- The effectiveness of these probiotics depends on the dose. Lower doses had no effect in some cases.
- The author sees no reason why these 2 probiotics cannot be taken daily for the rest of your life.

I guess the biggest piece of information for me is that I need to find more of these antimicrobial probiotics. All of us will have different bad bacteria in our guts so probiotics will have differing effects. S. Boulardii and B. Clausii seem to be good ones to start with.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 25, 2019, 09:09:02 AM
So I have tried normalflore for a week now and the first two days seemed to be the most successful where I was taking two drops with each meal it felt similar to an SSRI it was strange. After that I was increasing the dosage and it seemed the more I took the more disconnected with reality I felt. I also started to get a strong pain and stiffness when i bend my back and I am pretty certain its from the normalflore although theres a slight possibility it could be from yoga.

I have finally finished the first vial now and started a new one today and I already feel a big difference with the new one. Maybe the longer it is exposed to air the less effective it comes so now I am sealing it with cling film. I have read that it is fine to keep them at room temperature but what do you think about putting vials in the fridge?

I'm also thinking about buying the multivitamin you mentioned to see if it makes it more effective as right now I'm not feeling much.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 26, 2019, 11:08:06 AM
So I have tried normalflore for a week now and the first two days seemed to be the most successful where I was taking two drops with each meal it felt similar to an SSRI it was strange. After that I was increasing the dosage and it seemed the more I took the more disconnected with reality I felt. I also started to get a strong pain and stiffness when i bend my back and I am pretty certain its from the normalflore although theres a slight possibility it could be from yoga.

I have finally finished the first vial now and started a new one today and I already feel a big difference with the new one. Maybe the longer it is exposed to air the less effective it comes so now I am sealing it with cling film. I have read that it is fine to keep them at room temperature but what do you think about putting vials in the fridge?

I'm also thinking about buying the multivitamin you mentioned to see if it makes it more effective as right now I'm not feeling much.

Yeah, I cover mine with cling film. They recommend you use the vial immediately after opening so perhaps it does degrade very quickly. It just seems a shame to throw away most of the vial but I guess it's not too expensive. I can only tolerate one or two drops daily so it's not going to be the cure for me. Not sure about refrigeration having any benefit, the bacteria are happy at room temperature.

You can try the multivitamin if you want, I've been trying to pin down the ingredient(s) in it that seems to help. It contains vitamins, fruit & vegetable extracts and sweeteners like sorbitol and stevial glycosides. I bought some Sorbitol and Xylitol, they are what's called "sugar alcohols" and if you remember, I mentioned previously that Normaflore bacteria like to consume Sorbitol and Xylitol in particular as seen in this research article:
https://mic.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/10.1099/13500872-141-7-1745

I've started reading into sugar alcohols (they aren't alcoholic but they just resemble the molecular structure of ethanol). I found out that there is one called mannitol which is found in sweet potatoes and mushrooms, so I'm wondering if mannitol is the reason for my ability to eat unlimited sweet potatoes and pretty much no other forms of carbohydrates. Mannitol is being used to treat Parkinson's disease currently and I believe Parkinson's starts in the gut from dysbiosis.

These sugar alcohols have the ability to kill bacteria and also have a prebiotic effect, Xylitol can kill harmful forms of Streptococcus bacteria and thus change the microbiome of the mouth and gut. I've just started taking Xylitol and it has possibly had an impact on my symptoms, I'll know for certain when I gradually up the dose over the coming days. The sorbitol seemed to have less of a positive impact, whether that's because of the product quality I don't know, it's hard to find sorbitol and the one I bought doesn't say anything about where it was manufactured or the purity.

Finally, I continue to take 1 drop of normaflore daily. I have ordered some Mannitol powder and another sugar alcohol called Erythritol. I will be testing a number of these sugar alcohols and will provide an update.

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 27, 2019, 10:15:40 AM
I seem to be doing pretty well with Xylitol, it gives me a lot more energy and a better mood. When I first started it, I kept getting a burning smell in my left nostril. I have had recurrent sinusitis in my left sinus for years and I have just learnt that Xylitol is used to remove Streptococcus pneumoniae biofilms from the sinuses, there's even a commercial product called "Xlear" although all you really need to buy is Xylitol, mix it with some water and put it in a nasal squeezy bottle. I guess the burning smell was the Xylitol acting on the bacteria which is fascinating because I only swallowed the Xylitol, I didn't put any up my nose. The burning smell stopped after a day or two which is encouraging and I continue to increase the dose of Xylitol, I am taking about a third of a teaspoon every 1 or 2 hours and gradually upping the dose further. From what I've read, the Xylitol needs to be taken very regularly throughout the day otherwise the bacteria have time to recover.

I've ordered some Stevia extract as well. Note that stevia extract (also known as RebA) is a pure form of Stevia, I wouldn't bother with the Stevia found in supermarkets as they are around 2% stevia extract mixed with other sweeteners. Both Stevia Extract and Xylitol are supposed to destroy biofilms but from what I've read, Xylitol seems more effective. Also beware that eating sugars like Fructose feeds bad bacteria and effectively negates the work that Xylitol is doing so it is important to limit intake of sugars during this protocol.

Some people think that Xylitol is only good for attacking biofilms and that something else is needed to deal with the underlying bacteria once the biofilm defences are damaged. I continue to take Normaflore and have started adding some BB536 as well. I will add the Stevia Extract in the coming days. Here's a couple links to people discussing Xylitol, Stevia Extract and biofilms:

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3795451
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3307432

Whether the issue is biofilms or just some kind of systemic Streptococcus pneumoniae infection, Xylitol should hopefully take care of it.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on February 27, 2019, 11:07:55 AM
Tested stevia for lyme protocol biofilm remowe from bacteria,
nothing helped to me, god luck, keap reporting.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 27, 2019, 11:50:28 AM
Tested stevia for lyme protocol biofilm remowe from bacteria,
nothing helped to me, god luck, keap reporting.

Have you tried Xylitol as well? Stevia doesn't seem to be as effective from what I've read.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on February 27, 2019, 01:16:00 PM
No, it will be intresting to try, but after , it would be nice to try some
naturall antibacteriall, like oregano oil(carefull), to kill patogens after
film disoved.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 28, 2019, 07:18:52 AM
Very interesting thread about Streptococcus overgrowth in the body:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/streptococcus-overgrowth.20119/

While I strongly advise against using antibiotics due to it severely worsening my condition, the commenter "Elph68" seems to know a lot about fighting strep and also how strep affects the body including its use of the lymphatic system.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on February 28, 2019, 09:28:59 AM
Unknown cronic infection( posible in some of us) can do mess i our bodies.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 28, 2019, 06:19:48 PM
Unknown cronic infection( posible in some of us) can do mess i our bodies.

I've pretty much ruled out viruses but I know some people have problems with the epstein barr virus.

I'm looking at 2 types of chronic bacteria, staphylococcus and streptococcus. I've had a lot of skin issues over the years and I developed follicullitis after taking an antibiotic called Flagyl (Metronidazole), I even swabbed my scalp and managed to culture the bacteria on an agar petri dish, the bacteria had yellow bumps and looked like Staph Aureus to my untrained eye. I swabbed my scalp and sent it for lab testing but they couldn't culture anything which was very frustrating. I believe that stress and antibiotics allow these chronic bacteria to take over. Every time that I've been hit with skin problems and other issues, my food intolerances have gotten worse and never recovered. I guess these opportunistic bacteria just slowly creep forward every time the body's immune system is weak until the host is basically crippled by bacteria and can't lead a normal life.

The xylitol has so far been very good for my mood and energy but I wonder if the improvements are purely due to an increase in blood sugar. I'll keep taking the xylitol regardless, perhaps there will be a sudden improvement after 1 week when bacteria starve to death, Xylitol apparently prevents strep bacteria from consuming sugars and gradually kills them off. Aside from the increased energy and mood, none of my other issues have resolved.

The other thing I've been looking at is the improvement of fat padding under my eye. When I took antibiotics in the past or had a very stressful event in my life, I would notice blue veins appearing beneath my eyes and slight lumps of fat forming on my cheekbones, basically like the fat cells under my eyes were damaged (lipid peroxidation?) and sunk into the cheekbone below. I originally posted in early January that I thought my improvements were caused by flaxseed oil but then I thought it was the Normaflore. I struggled to recreate the improvements by taking either flaxseed oil or normaflore in isolation. I now believe that it only works well if I take Normaflore and flaxseed oil together at the "exact same time". The Normaflore bacteria must be utilising something from the flax oil in a synbiotic relationship. Also, the improvements in fat padding only occur while I'm sleeping, it must involve some kind of body maintenance process. I'm about 80% sure of this synergistic relationship between flaxseed oil taken at the exact same time as Normaflore, I'll be testing it further.

I've been reading about anti-microbial effects of flaxseed oil, apparently it helps kill Staph. So, between the Xylitol and the Flax/Normaflore, I should hopefully make some progress in the coming weeks. I am going to postpone starting any other sugar alcohols like mannitol or erythritol for now.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 28, 2019, 08:12:59 PM
Apologies if I'm posting too often, I'm using this thread to document anything of importance. I feel like I'm slowly getting to a solution through my detective work, there's a lot of different things that seem to be adding up at this moment in time.

Here's a research article talking about Niacinamide/Nicotinamide being used to treat staph aureus, maybe that's one explanation for why it helps some POISers:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3428083/
https://freeyourspine.info/cure-mrsa-staph-infection-vitamin-b3/

I'm going to build a list of staphylococcus natural remedies, perhaps they'll match some other POIS treatments. That's not to say staph causes all forms of POIS, there are plenty of other chronic bacterial and viral infections.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 28, 2019, 09:41:45 PM
Some Bacillus probiotics are effective at killing staph aureus:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-018-0111-3

The Normaflore/Enterogermina probiotic contains 4 strains of Bacillus Clausii.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 02, 2019, 08:41:43 AM
I've been looking at what staph aureus bacteria ferment and the most mentioned is the sugar alcohol mannitol! Here's a link that mentions a list of sugars:

https://microbiologyinfo.com/biochemical-test-and-identification-of-staphylococcus-aureus/

I've been eating a heavy mannitol and maltose diet in the form of sweet potatoes, it was one of the few carb foods that didn't trigger symptoms. Maybe I've been keeping the bad stuff happy all this time.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on March 02, 2019, 12:14:38 PM
Maybe you drunk all the time from my autobrewery teory ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 02, 2019, 04:48:42 PM
Maybe you drunk all the time from my autobrewery teory ;D ;D ;D

(http://dynamicpedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Auto-Brewery-Syndrome-dynamicpedia.jpg)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on March 02, 2019, 05:54:20 PM
Hahahah  ;D ;D  cheers
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 02, 2019, 06:59:18 PM
Hahahah  ;D ;D  cheers

Cheers, HOD! ;D ;D


(https://media.giphy.com/media/RBGcCFNd6UAjm/giphy.gif)

(Only because I no longer drink beer - - but I
used to once love it)

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on March 03, 2019, 08:58:40 AM
I can not remember if I said it before but as a teenager I used to get a few times antibiotics. That was because sinus inflammation. My doctor said after the first time that he doubts if antiobiotics will work, but I begged him to give me the antibiotics. After a few years there was intestinal mucosa in my stool. And after a few years more I got POIS. I think in my case antibiotics played a role in getting POIS. And now I am in POIS like period for almost 5 months because of antibiotics. In November or December there was also intestinal mucosa in my stool. I think my DAO is destroyed.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on March 03, 2019, 09:25:49 AM
Have they ever checked for viral DNA in your mucus?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on March 03, 2019, 10:45:28 AM
I have been tested on anti-dsdna, but I think that is something different.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: david on March 03, 2019, 01:19:30 PM
i guess its no wander if many guys including me very much probably got their pois after antibiotics use
there are a lot of studies you can find out there that shows us that depression, autism disorders, many other different alergies and i believe pois are because of lack of some bacterias in the gut
and there are many cases then they got cured up to 80% from autism and depression after making (dont lough) fecal transplantation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKUfjSI35y8& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKUfjSI35y8&)


and so my theory is that we all(poiser) lack of some gut bacteria which causes many different symptoms including leaky gut, constant inflammation, lyme, lack of many vitamins etc
by the way - got my appendicitis removed in childhood (in which i believe we have spare good bacteria in case of its needed to be sowed agian) i wonder if we all had appendicitis removed ...


another reason for brain fatigue and in general so called refractory period is the significant decrease of Androgen Receptors(AR) during orgasm when most the ARs are being "used/burned out"
here is the study that clearly proves it:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6536830_Relationship_between_Sexual_Satiety_and_Brain_Androgen_Receptors (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6536830_Relationship_between_Sexual_Satiety_and_Brain_Androgen_Receptors)
and so even if you have enough testosterone in your bloodstream you have significant desire decrease(as well as motivation in general) cause of lack of AR

and so as you know i'm on HRT(hormonal replacement therapy) which helped me significantly to get rid of most pois symptoms but right after big O although i dont have any physical fatigue anymore i can feel the so called mental fatigue( it is then you lack of motivation and you have much less sexual desire, i believe motivation and desire are absolutely equal in men i.e. you dont have motivation its very likely you dont have desire and the opposite)
so i started to dig how i can restore my AR faster
and i have found something which helps a little bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Q3dVGk_kA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Q3dVGk_kA)

everybody knows about vitamins but we pay not enough attention to it
the lack of any vitamin can cause and do cause many bad symptoms although almost nobody thinks it is because of vitamins
just think of the name Vita Amins = vital aminos = everybody should have them enough otherwise you will get many unexplained symptoms

recently i started to administer very potent vitamins (lifeextension two-per-day)
along with ALCAR 1.5 gram in the morning and 1.5 gram after dinner and i can say i can feel a subtle energy increase like if you have two small sips of coffee every two hours
and the most important i can feel increase in motivation also the desire started to restore faster...


hope these helps to some poisers
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on March 03, 2019, 02:10:03 PM
But most poisers already had physical problems prior to their antibiotics use. Perhaps the antibiotics pushed them over an edge.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 04, 2019, 09:02:26 PM
I have a feeling this is one of the mechanisms of POIS:

Quote
Arginase II is coexpressed with nitric oxide (NO) synthase in smooth muscle tissue, such as the muscle in the genitals of both men and women. The contraction and relaxation of these muscles has been attributed to NO synthase, which causes rapid relaxation of smooth muscle tissue and facilitates engorgement of tissue necessary for normal sexual response. However, since NO synthase and arginase compete for the same substrate (L-arginine), over-expressed arginase can affect NO synthase activity and NO-dependent smooth muscle relaxation by depleting the substrate pool of L-arginine that would otherwise be available to NO synthase. In contrast, inhibiting arginase with ABH or other boronic acid inhibitors will maintain normal cellular levels of arginine, thus allowing for normal muscle relaxation and sexual response.[8]

Arginase is a controlling factor in both male erectile function and female sexual arousal, and is therefore a potential target for treatment of sexual dysfunction in both sexes. Additionally, supplementing the diet with additional L-arginine will decrease the amount of competition between arginase and NO synthase by providing extra substrate for each enzyme.[9]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arginase

As I understand it, these 2 enzymes both use L-Arginine. The first enzyme "NO synthase" uses Arginine for the rapid muscle contractions during an O but the second enzyme "Arginase" is more important because it detoxes ammonia and has important roles in the urea cycle and immune system.

So the issue is that Arginase is too high, the body requires loads of Arginine. When we have an O, the L-Arginine gets depleted by the muscle contractions and the Arginase is unable to detox ammonia and do other important bodily processes.

I guess taking L-Arginine may help at least some of us, whether there are other co-factors required is another question.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 04, 2019, 09:13:32 PM
Simon, can you simplify it a little? Hard to understand (for me, and perhaps others not so technically inclined). Thanks!


Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 04, 2019, 09:19:30 PM
Simon, can you simplify it a little? Hard to understand (for me, and perhaps others not so technically inclined). Thanks!




Edited  :)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 04, 2019, 09:29:18 PM
THANK YOU, SIMON! :)


Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 04, 2019, 09:39:00 PM
If anyone wants more detail on these enzymes, see this research article:

Arginase as a potential target in the treatment of cardiovascular disease: reversal of arginine steal? John Pernow, Christian Jung


https://academic.oup.com/cardiovascres/article/98/3/334/390065
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 04, 2019, 09:46:09 PM
Thanks again, Simon.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 07, 2019, 06:06:31 PM
Here's a link for an article about the importance of small intestine mucosa for the catabolism of amino acids:

Intestinal Mucosal Amino Acid Catabolism ~ Guoyao Wu
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/128/8/1249/4722724

In short, the small intestinal mucosal lining is very important for absorbing protein, breaking it down into dietary amino acids and then converting the amino acids for use in metabolic processes. These amino acids are also used to maintain the intestinal mucosal mass and integrity.

Put simply, a damaged gut will struggle to absorb and process amino acids. Without these amino acids and their byproducts, the gut cannot repair itself so the problems continue and I would guess they gradually worsen.

We hear a lot about supplementing L-Glutamine for leaky gut but that has never worked for me. From the above research article, there are a lot more amino acids required. Glycine, L-Proline, L-Lysine and L-Arginine are required for collagen synthesis.

The gut mucosal lining is where the gut bacteria reside so people with food intolerances should look at rebuilding the gut mucosa with amino acids.

As I've said a few times before, I lost some of the fat padding under my eyes follwing antibiotic use and now have prominent blue veins. I am hoping to find an amino acid combination that rebuilds the fat entirely and then my hope is that this same amino combination will rebuild my gut mucosal lining. I've taken low doses of Glycine, L-Proline & L-Arginine yesterday and it possibly had an impact so I've upped the dose today and will see what happens. From the research article, there appears to be over 10 amino acids that I may need to supplement. Additionally, I tried an amino complex of all 20 amino acids used by the human body and it caused some body pain so I guess I need to build my own amino acid regimen. I'll be doing some research on the amino acids needed for regenerating the gut mucosa. Once the mucosal lining is healed, my hope is that all of my symptoms will go away, the immune system will calm down and I can get on with my life.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on March 07, 2019, 07:14:39 PM

We hear a lot about supplementing L-Glutamine for leaky gut but that has never worked for me. From the above research article, there are a lot more amino acids required. Glycine, L-Proline, L-Lysine and L-Arginine are required for collagen synthesis.
Interesting article. But why are you taking those amino acids separately? Why not take an amino acid complex?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 07, 2019, 07:42:46 PM

We hear a lot about supplementing L-Glutamine for leaky gut but that has never worked for me. From the above research article, there are a lot more amino acids required. Glycine, L-Proline, L-Lysine and L-Arginine are required for collagen synthesis.
Interesting article. But why are you taking those amino acids separately? Why not take an amino acid complex?

I took a full spectrum amino complex already and it made me a lot worse. Perhaps it's because some aminos share the same pathways and compete with eachother. L-Lysine gave me kidney pain, apparently it can elevate oxidative stress in the kidneys and it also competes with L-Arginine.

Here's a link to a chart listing the amino acid composition of mucin (gut mucosa):

http://en.ajinomoto-animalnutrition-emea.com/threonine-gut-health-and-immunity.html

I'll be buying these and trying them all.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 08, 2019, 01:40:32 PM
I have had another look at my Amino Acid test results and noticed that the ones I'm deficient in are (according to the below link) many of the same ones that are used to maintain the gut mucosal lining; these include Threonine, Serine, Leucine, Histidine, Methionine. The reference figure for Proline doesn't have a lower limit so I could very well be deficient in that as well.

From what I've read, L-Threonine seems to have the biggest influence on gut mucosal integrity. L-Threonine is not widely sold so I've had to order it from a lesser known brand, I hope it's reasonable quality.

Here's the link with a chart listing the aminos needed for the gut mucosa:
http://en.ajinomoto-animalnutrition-emea.com/threonine-gut-health-and-immunity.html

Here's my amino acid quantitative urine test results:

_URINE AMINO ACIDS QUANTITATION_
Ref Range:
AMINO ACID Result (uM/mM Crea) Reference Range (uM/mM Crea)
~
Phosphoserine 4 Not Detected
Taurine 58 16-180
Phosphoethanolamine 3 Not Detected
Aspartic Acid 2 2-7
Hydroxyproline 1 <13
Threonine *6 7-29
Serine *16 21-50
Asparagine 4 <23
Glutamic Acid 1 <12
Glutamine 20 20-76
Sarcosine 0 Not Detected
Alpha Aminoadipic acid 1 Not Detected
Proline 0 <9
Glycine 46 43-173
Alanine 21 16-68
Citrulline 1 <4
Alpha Aminobutyric 0 <4
Valine 3 3-13
Cystine 3 3-17
Methionine *1 2-16
Isoleucine 1 <4
Leucine *1 2-11
Tyrosine 3 2-23
Phenylalanine 3 2-19
Beta Alanine 2 Not Detected
Beta Aminoisobutyric 2 <91
GABA 0 Not Detected
Ethanolamine 17 Not Detected
Tryptophan 0 Not Detected
Hydroxylysine 0 Not Detected
Ornithine 2 <5
Lysine 7 7-58
1-Methylhistidine 59 Not Detected
Histidine *25 26-153
3-Methylhistidine *14 19-47
Anserine 1 Not Detected
Carnosine 5 Not Detected
Arginine 1 <5
-
Creatinine 1469 mg/l
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on March 08, 2019, 05:15:24 PM
I orderded an amino acid complex. It contains 21 AA including threonine. Even my DAO is very good I will focus for a weeks on gut repair. And after that I will not buy new vitamins. I still have 30 kind of vitamins. I have to take those before the expery date.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 13, 2019, 12:47:42 PM
I've had to stop the amino acids due to some worrying kidney pain. I moved on to taking a bovine collagen supplement and that caused pain in my joints which is one of my biggest issues after taking the antibiotics. I am also unable to eat large amounts of cheese or I get pain in my joints and bone spurs develop which I believe comes from inappropriate deposition of calcium.

I've been looking at calcium metabolism and it appears that vitamins D3 and L-Lysine are important for absorbing calcium from food. Once the calcium is in the body, vitamin K2 is needed in order to put the calcium into the bones. A deficiency in K2 can cause calcium to be deposited in bad places like the heart arteries.

I tested practically most of my vitamins a year ago and they were normal except Gamma Tocopherol. However, I did not test vitamin K because I did not have any blood clotting issues and my platelets were normal. I didn't know at the time that vitamin K1 is responsible for blood clotting and platelets BUT vitamin K2 is very different and it controls bone health.

My suspicion is that I have a very severe vitamin K2 deficiency, I've been reading that gut bacteria are one of the main sources of K2. In supplements, a species known as Bacillus Subtilis is used to produce K2 MK7. MK7 is a particular form of K2 that seems to be beneficial, another beneficial form is MK4.

I'm now wondering if the Normaflore probiotic helped me because the Bacillus Clausii bacteria were producing K2 in my gut. I've started taking a vitamin K supplement called "Life Extension Super K" together with a 3000IU vitamin D3 supplement and my skin looks a lot clearer. It may be helping improve the fat loss under my eyes too but I'll need another week before I will know for certain. I have a bone spur on one of my fingers that was caused by eating cheese and that has not improved yet but I've only been taking the K2 for 2 days.

So, it seems like some (maybe all) of my issues are related to calcium metabolism. I downloaded a book from amazon called "THE MIRACULOUS RESULTS OF EXTREMELY HIGH DOSES OF THE SUNSHINE HORMONE VITAMIN D3 MY EXPERIMENT WITH HUGE DOSES OF D3 FROM 25,000 to 50,000 to 100,000 IU A Day OVER A 1 YEAR PERIOD". The book cost me £2 to download and details how one man claims to have fixed a large number of ailments using high doses of vitamins D3 and K2. The basic premise of the book is that early humans used to starve in winter months and when summer came, their bodies produced more D3. This increase in D3 was a signal that food would be more plentiful and therefore the body could start using its vitamin/mineral stores to fix ailments. He thinks that if the body lacks D3, it conserves all resources and basically goes into metabolic hibernation, this may even explain chronic fatigue. D3 is actually a steroid hormone, not a vitamin. Anabolic steroids that bodybuilders use cause muscle gains through the genes that they express. Perhaps D3 is expressing genes that deal with bodily maintenance and repair.

I don't react well to vitamin D3 so I will concentrate on just vitamin K2 for now. I've ordered a powerful Thorne K2 MK4 liquid that I will add to the Life Extension Super K supplement and then see if I get any improvements.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on March 13, 2019, 03:00:59 PM
Hi,

Quote
I moved on to taking a bovine collagen supplement

Yes, this is my new secrete strategy for 2019  ;D
. But I don't use supplment : I do it myself.
 After talking with a doctor, Bone broth was given to ill people in hospital some years ago.
And miracle : it really helps my stomach problems !

Quote
I believe comes from inappropriate deposition of calcium.

Yes, I think too.
I think positive electrolytes might be pumped after ejaculation/orgasm : magnesium (Mg2+), calcium (Ca2+), Potassium (K+), sodium (Na+).... maybe other one like zinc.. Because my intestine become crazy after ejaculation.
I think we should try to supplement on these electrolytes.




Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 14, 2019, 02:12:30 PM
I wanted to write a bit more about calcium because I have a few issues that appear to be linked to this mineral.

Firstly, I've had chronic fatigue since around aged 14 when I started puberty. Secondly, I get bone spurs from eating high calcium foods ever since I took a broad spectrum antibiotic. Thirdly, my Osteocalcin and Beta CTx blood tests are abnormal suggesting that my body might be removing abnormal amounts of calcium from my bones.

I've found a chronic fatigue article that might tie all of this together. The link is below, it basically explains that intracellular calcium abnormalities can really mess up the body (hormones, neurotransmitters and mitochondria depend on calcium) and lead to demineralisation of bones as a compensation mechanism. Since my problems got worse after antibiotic use and vitamin K2 is produced by gut bacteria (that were probably wiped out), I am supplementing K1 and several forms of K2 in high doses to see if things improve.

http://www.chronicfatiguediagnosis.com/2018/11/01/intracellular-calcium-and-viruses/
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on March 14, 2019, 02:14:16 PM
What about testing for osteoporosis?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 14, 2019, 06:51:05 PM
What about testing for osteoporosis?

My problems are a lot more serious than osteoperosis, my body can't tolerate calcium supplements or foods. Doctors are not interested in treating my issues so I have no interest in pursuing an osteoperosis diagnosis, it's not going to help me. They'll just tell me to take calcium and get mental treatment for the other symptoms. I still have a lot of anger at how I was treated by doctors, it's not worth my time anymore. I am my own doctor.

If a test comes out for this new calcium impairment theory of chronic fatigue syndrome, I'll be happy to pursue that diagnosis.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on March 15, 2019, 11:14:14 AM
Yes your problem is more serious than osteoporosis but I think you are missing my point. Osteoporosis might tell us something about the underlying problem. It's about collecting all the pieces of the puzzle even if it seems irrelevant, it's about objectifying and mapping the problem.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on March 15, 2019, 01:51:30 PM
Elevated intracellular calcium levels could have something to do with Voltage-gated calcium channels:

''VGCCs have been immunolocalized in the zona glomerulosa of normal and hyperplastic human adrenal, as well as in aldosterone-producing adenomas (APA), and in the latter T-type VGCCs correlated with plasma aldosterone levels of patients.[5] Excessive activation of VGCCs is a major component of excitotoxicity, as severely elevated levels of intracellular calcium activates enzymes which, at high enough levels, can degrade essential cellular structures.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage-gated_calcium_channel

I wonder if spasms by POIS are due to changing intracellular calcium levels. Perhaps this is a different discussion about voltage-gated ion channels. There is a thread about that on poiscenter I believe.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 15, 2019, 02:17:26 PM
Simon,

Total calcium levels in blood in my case is usually normal, but ionized calcium in my blood is sometimes low but at other times it is normal.

However when I did a hair test analysis , on each occasion it was found that I had high intracellular calcium levels in the cells of my hair.

Here is a much older article on the effects of viruses on intracellular calcium from a hair trace minerals expert:
https://www.traceelements.com/Docs/News%20Nov-Dec%2089.pdf

I did a hair analysis over a year ago, the only significant thing was elevated Zirconium and Aluminium from deodorant use. Part of the chronic fatigue calcium theory is that viruses can interfere with intracellular calcium but I wasn't able to find any evidence of activated viruses. My problems all got massively worse after taking Fluoroquinolone antibiotics so I am leaning towards the gut as being the source of this calcium dysfunction. Perhaps I have some kind of vitamin, mineral or amino acid malabsorption.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 15, 2019, 02:35:15 PM
Yes your problem is more serious than osteoporosis but I think you are missing my point. Osteoporosis might tell us something about the underlying problem. It's about collecting all the pieces of the puzzle even if it seems irrelevant, it's about objectifying and mapping the problem.

I appreciate what you're saying, I'm just not interested in pursuing that avenue right now. The osteocalcin and beta-CTx are good enough indicators for me that there is a metabolic bone issue but I think it's part of a much bigger metabolic problem.

Elevated intracellular calcium levels could have something to do with Voltage-gated calcium channels:

''VGCCs have been immunolocalized in the zona glomerulosa of normal and hyperplastic human adrenal, as well as in aldosterone-producing adenomas (APA), and in the latter T-type VGCCs correlated with plasma aldosterone levels of patients.[5] Excessive activation of VGCCs is a major component of excitotoxicity, as severely elevated levels of intracellular calcium activates enzymes which, at high enough levels, can degrade essential cellular structures.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage-gated_calcium_channel

I wonder if spasms by POIS are due to changing intracellular calcium levels. Perhaps this is a different discussion about voltage-gated ion channels. There is a thread about that on poiscenter I believe.

Yeah, I do wonder about muscle spasms and burning sensations, I think they could be related to a calcium/magnesium balance or perhaps ATP. The question for me is why having taken the Fluoroquinolone antibiotic has everything gotten much, much worse? People claim that this class of antibiotics are mitotoxic so my mitochondria are now dysfunctional. There is a website for people that claim to have recovered from such adverse reactions, some of the stories are interesting. These 2 interest me a lot:

https://floxiehope.com/marks-recovery-story-fluoroquinolone-toxicity/
https://floxiehope.com/james-recovery-story-cipro-toxicity/

I know moderate exercise changes the gut flora to become more anti-inflammatory and it is also supposed to have an effect on the mitochondria as well. I may just give up on supplements and pursue cycling as a potential cure. I think getting a sun tan is also beneficial, I lived near the equator for a few years when I was younger and my health was great. I also visited Florida about 10 years ago, I got a strong sun tan and just felt a lot better.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on March 15, 2019, 06:49:44 PM
I wonder if antibiotics toxicity is causing my hot flushes. I have them without POIS for 5 months now. Before I only would get it when I almost finished the 3 weeks of antibiotics. Back then I would only be sick for 2 or 3 days. Before my sickness 5 months ago I took 3 types of antibiotics. I stopped Minocycline after a few days, then I took co-trim for a few days. And then 3 weeks of cefuroxim. I took 3 because I got itchy by all 3 of them.

Here they say you can get flushes and warm skin from cefuroxime. But I stopped taking it for 4 months now.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/cefuroxime-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20073295
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 15, 2019, 10:17:54 PM
I wonder if antibiotics toxicity is causing my hot flushes. I have them without POIS for 5 months now. Before I only would get it when I almost finished the 3 weeks of antibiotics. Back then I would only be sick for 2 or 3 days. Before my sickness 5 months ago I took 3 types of antibiotics. I stopped Minocycline after a few days, then I took co-trim for a few days. And then 3 weeks of cefuroxim. I took 3 because I got itchy by all 3 of them.

Here they say you can get flushes and warm skin from cefuroxime. But I stopped taking it for 4 months now.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/cefuroxime-oral-route/side-effects/drg-20073295

I have such issues from the antibiotics like erythromelalgia, hot flushes and sudden zaps of heat that feel like autoimmunity. I will never take another pharmaceutical, I'd rather die than worsen my situation.

I'm currently looking at vitamin d3 1000IU with exercise. Updates to follow.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on March 15, 2019, 11:48:31 PM
Quote
Yeah, I do wonder about muscle spasms and burning sensations, I think they could be related to a calcium/magnesium balance or perhaps ATP. The question for me is why having taken the Fluoroquinolone antibiotic has everything gotten much, much worse?

Maybe electrloytes defiency or maybe excessive tryptophane/serotonine .
I'm currently testing something very promising. All my spasms go away.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 16, 2019, 12:05:11 PM
b_jim, looking forward to hearing your test results!
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on March 16, 2019, 12:45:16 PM
I have also tried a collagen supplement this week but in the end my joints started to hurt slightly and my speech wasn't good. The normalflore doesn't do anything even with the flaxseed oil for me anymore. I also tried l tyrsoine and 5htp together yesterday and it wasn't a good effect for me at all. I don't think dopamine is a problem in my case.

However out of all the new supplements I've recently bought the one that has really surprised me and has had quite promising results is Oregano Oil. I have tried many of the natural antibiotics  before and most of them don't really do anything apart from slightly dampen symptoms. I instantly feel a lot sharper and alive with the oregano oil and it is much more potent compared with things like garlic and probiotics. I have yet to try with orgasm but I feel like it should probably help a lot. I will update my progress with it in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 19, 2019, 07:14:38 PM
I have also tried a collagen supplement this week but in the end my joints started to hurt slightly and my speech wasn't good. The normalflore doesn't do anything even with the flaxseed oil for me anymore. I also tried l tyrsoine and 5htp together yesterday and it wasn't a good effect for me at all. I don't think dopamine is a problem in my case.

However out of all the new supplements I've recently bought the one that has really surprised me and has had quite promising results is Oregano Oil. I have tried many of the natural antibiotics  before and most of them don't really do anything apart from slightly dampen symptoms. I instantly feel a lot sharper and alive with the oregano oil and it is much more potent compared with things like garlic and probiotics. I have yet to try with orgasm but I feel like it should probably help a lot. I will update my progress with it in the coming weeks.

Sounds good, I have considered oregano oil but worry that it might be too strong for me to handle. Maybe I'll try it if my daily exercise doesn't work.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on March 20, 2019, 07:20:23 PM
However when I did a hair test analysis , on each occasion it was found that I had high intracellular calcium levels in the cells of my hair.

Here is a much older article on the effects of viruses on intracellular calcium from a hair trace minerals expert:
https://www.traceelements.com/Docs/News%20Nov-Dec%2089.pdf
Beta Blockers prevent intracellular calcium overload.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 25, 2019, 08:00:13 AM
I've been looking again at my high levels of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). I am going to get my Free Testosterone checked this week. My total testosterone has always been right at the low end of the reference range.

I found some interesting articles linking gut bacteria to testosterone. Firstly, this article says Ciprofloxacin reduces testosterone and can be fixed by probiotics:

https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.31.1_supplement.696.2

Secondly, the following article singles out a strain of L. Reuteri as a testosterone booster:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879365/#!po=12.6263

I have a different strain of L. Reuteri in a probiotic called BioGaia, I've only tried it once so I think I will take it again this week. I may also do some exercise to try and boost my testosterone further though it's difficult since my body is not in a good state and reacts badly to prolonged exertion.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 27, 2019, 08:57:32 PM
I have so many different health issues that there must be a common issue or deficiency causing a metabolic cascade.

I'm currently testing a form of Arginine called AAKG, here's some information about it:

https://selfhacked.com/blog/health-benefits-aakg/

AAKG sounds very important, taking it should help protein synthesis, amino acid metabolism, bone health, digestive disorders, energy, cognitive function, sexual function (increases blood flow), immune function and it even treats cyanide poisoning XD.

AAKG is also the core part of the "Deanna Protocol" which is used by some to treat motor neuron disease (ALS). It supposedly has a positive effect on dysfunctional mitochondria, something I suspect I may have.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 30, 2019, 12:43:17 PM
Here's a link to an article that basically says testosterone is ineffective without L-Arginine. The article explains that testosterone levels DO NOT change in Arginine-deficient mice but testosterone becomes ineffective. It's almost like the testosterone needs to be activated by Arginine in the kidneys. Perhaps this explains why my SHBG levels went up after antibiotic use but my total testosterone levels haven't really changed:

https://joe.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/joe/183/2/1830343.xml


Here's the full abstract from this research article:

Abstract
Feeding mice an arginine-deficient diet decreased plasma concentrations of arginine, citrulline and ornithine in the females and arginine in the males, abolishing the sexual dimorphic pattern of these amino acids found in mice fed the standard diet. In addition, the restriction of dietary arginine produced a marked decrease in body and renal weights as well as in the activity of renal ornithine decarboxylase, decreases that were gender dependent since they were observed exclusively in males. The fact that these changes were not associated with the decrease in the circulating levels of testosterone and that the dietary arginine restriction prevented the body weight gain induced by testosterone treatment of female mice fed the standard diet indicates that dietary arginine is required for the anabolic action of androgens. Moreover, under certain conditions that could compromise the renal synthesis of arginine, as in the compensatory renal hypertrophy that follows unilateral nephrectomy, the myotrophic effect of testosterone was transiently impaired. The results also revealed that arginine deficiency produced an opposite effect in the expression of IGF-I and IGF-binding protein 1 in the liver and kidney. Taken together, our results indicate that dietary arginine may be relevant to the anabolic action of testosterone, and suggest that this effect may be mediated by changes in the insulin-like growth factor system.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 30, 2019, 12:46:43 PM
Thank you, Simon!
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 30, 2019, 01:11:55 PM
...testosterone is ineffective without L-Arginine...
I’m on TRT, would it make any sense for me to ask my physician about L-Arginine?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 30, 2019, 02:56:13 PM
...testosterone is ineffective without L-Arginine...
I’m on TRT, would it make any sense for me to ask my physician about L-Arginine?

In my opinion, doctors know very little about this sort of thing. Before taking L-Arginine, I should warn anyone that this amino acid feeds herpes infections so people with HSV, EBV, CMV etc. should be aware that taking Arginine can reactive these viruses.

If you still want to take L-Arginine, it's just an amino acid so should be well tolerated but use it at your own risk.

For anyone following my progress, I have stopped AAKG and now just take standard L-Arginine with a multivitamin and follow it up with some exercise to get the testosterone pumping. I have built up to 750mg twice daily (1500mg/day).

I know a lot of people here have gut issues, here's an article about intestinal homeostasis, leaky gut and L-Arginine deficiency:

https://iai.asm.org/content/81/10/3500#ref-3

I haven't had any instant results when taking the L-Arginine, perhaps slightly more energy in the mornings. I will update my progress as I increase the dose gradually.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on March 30, 2019, 02:59:34 PM
Thanks again, Simon!
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 30, 2019, 04:23:39 PM
To be clear, I haven't found a cure yet for my issues and L-Arginine so far hasn't done much. I'm just using this thread to keep a diary of my supplement journey mainly for my benefit.

It may just be easier for people to follow my progress but hold off on trying anything until I find something that actually brings significant improvements. I don't want anyone to be wasting money on the supplements that I'm trying if they have no effect on me. Let me waste the money and risk having an adverse reaction.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 01, 2019, 01:03:10 PM
I'm pursuing the idea of POIS being caused by LPS-induced inflammation.

As I understand it, LPS (Lipopolysaccharides) are molecules produced by bacteria in the gut and they usually don't cause issues as long as they are confined to the gut. If the gut lining is damaged, the LPS get into the bloodstream and travel around the body wreaking havoc.

In order to save time, I am often taking more than one supplement so it gets difficult to match any improvements with a particular supplement. I think L-Arginine has given me gradual improvements, it feels like it rebuilds the mucosal lining of the gut. I also just started testing Zinc Citrate and HMB (Beta-Hydroxy-Beta-Methylbutyrate) for their gut repair properties. I may also get some Zinc Carnosine in future.

HMB is a sports supplement used to prevent the breakdown of muscle. It can reduce the pain levels after lifting weights and reduce recovery times. It is sometimes given to HIV and cancer patients who have muscle wasting. HMB is normally produced by the body in small quantities from the amino acid L-Leucine. It has been shown to increase the height of small intestinal villi.

In summary, I am currently looking to build a protocol for repairing each aspect the intestinal lining including the mucosa and villi.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on April 01, 2019, 05:31:07 PM
Sounds teriffic, Simon!
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on April 03, 2019, 05:46:59 AM
Simon, you are focussed on the gut. But did you know that antibiotics can also affect the pancreas, the spleen and the liver? The spleen plays in important role in our immune system. I do not know how to improve the state of the spleen.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 03, 2019, 02:10:36 PM
Simon, you are focussed on the gut. But did you know that antibiotics can also affect the pancreas, the spleen and the liver? The spleen plays in important role in our immune system. I do not know how to improve the state of the spleen.

There's not much I can do about damage to those organs. There are ways to fix the gut though so I'd rather focus on something positive rather than incurable organ damage :/
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 03, 2019, 02:29:35 PM
I'm pursuing the idea of POIS being caused by LPS-induced inflammation.

As I understand it, LPS (Lipopolysaccharides) are molecules produced by bacteria in the gut and they usually don't cause issues as long as they are confined to the gut. If the gut lining is damaged, the LPS get into the bloodstream and travel around the body wreaking havoc.

In order to save time, I am often taking more than one supplement so it gets difficult to match any improvements with a particular supplement. I think L-Arginine has given me gradual improvements, it feels like it rebuilds the mucosal lining of the gut. I also just started testing Zinc Citrate and HMB (Beta-Hydroxy-Beta-Methylbutyrate) for their gut repair properties. I may also get some Zinc Carnosine in future.

HMB is a sports supplement used to prevent the breakdown of muscle. It can reduce the pain levels after lifting weights and reduce recovery times. It is sometimes given to HIV and cancer patients who have muscle wasting. HMB is normally produced by the body in small quantities from the amino acid L-Leucine. It has been shown to increase the height of small intestinal villi.

In summary, I am currently looking to build a protocol for repairing each aspect the intestinal lining including the mucosa and villi.

Since my last update, I have tried HMB and it seemed to give me knee pain so I have discontinued it.

A lot of my symptoms seem like vitamin A deficiency such as severe dry eyes, immune dysfunction, POIS, skin problems. I have been eating sweet potatoes every day and my Beta-Carotene blood levels are extremely high, yet I still feel like I am lacking vitamin A.

I did some research and beta carotene is converted into retinal in the small intestine using a particular gut enzyme. I have been suspecting for some time that I have damage to my gut lining where these enzymes are produced since I am also severely lactose intolerant.

I started taking a cheap vitamin A supplement that contained fish oil and retinyl palmitate, I had a bad reaction to this and I suspect it was the fish oils. I've just ordered another vitamin A supplement in the form of Retinol tablets. It doesn't contain fish oils or the less efficient forms of vitamin A like Retinyl Palmitate or Retinyl Acetate.

Whatever the mechanism of POIS, I believe the end product is one or more vitamin, mineral and amino acid deficiencies that make up semen or sperm. I'm currently focusing on finding which ones I am missing. For those interested in taking vitamin A, I've read that zinc is needed as a cofactor. As always, take any supplements at your own risk, vitamin A can cause toxicity.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 05, 2019, 12:28:25 PM
I'm currently taking high doses of Retinol (active form of vitamin A) with vitamin D3 & K2 MK-7. I have high hopes for this combination, I'm taking them in tablet form as the softgels often contain fish oils that trigger an immune response.

Here's a nice article explaining the many functions of active vitamin A (Retinol):
https://selfhacked.com/blog/importance-real-vitamin-retinol/

I am investigating the possibility that I don't convert Beta Carotene into active vitamin A very well. The conversion is handled by an enzyme in the small intestine.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on April 05, 2019, 06:39:58 PM
I am sure that my current POIS like period is because of antibiotics. I used 3 kinds of antibiotics in 5 weeks. Since then I am sick. I took Fluconazol for a month but that did not help. I also stopped with eating sugar. I used a lot of prebiotics and probiotics. But I think before reparing my gut I have to get rid of a parasite. But I do not know which one. I hope that an internist can help me.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 06, 2019, 09:46:12 AM
I am sure that my current POIS like period is because of antibiotics. I used 3 kinds of antibiotics in 5 weeks. Since then I am sick. I took Fluconazol for a month but that did not help. I also stopped with eating sugar. I used a lot of prebiotics and probiotics. But I think before reparing my gut I have to get rid of a parasite. But I do not know which one. I hope that an internist can help me.

I get the POIS symptoms just from eating certain foods. There are certain vitamins that are needed for immune function, I'm currently taking Vitamin A (in active Retinol form) tablets, Vitamin D3/K2 MK-7 tablets, Gamma E Mixed Tocopherol Complex (vitamin E), Zinc Citrate, Iron and a Multi-Vitamin. So basically, I have all 4 fat-soluble vitamins (A, D, E & K), I have Zinc and Iron which are cofactors and then a multivitamin for any remaining missing nutrients.

I took Fluconazole, Canesten, Antibiotics, Prebiotics and Probiotics over the years and none of them have brought any significant improvement. I did take a regimen of vitamins and minerals with L-Arginine a couple years back and I think that gave me slow improvements, too slow for me to figure it out at the time. I am restarting this vitamin/mineral protocol and I'll try and be a bit more patient and attentive this time.

If you're going to take any fat-soluble vitamins, I think it is best to get all 4 of them at once and consider the cofactors. Vitamin A is a tricky vitamin because some people cannot convert Beta-Carotene into Retinol, therefore I am taking the active form of Vitamin A.

Avoid fish oils at all costs, these are found in cheap vitamins like Vitamin A softgels and they worsen gut issues.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 09, 2019, 11:02:48 AM
I am sure that my current POIS like period is because of antibiotics. I used 3 kinds of antibiotics in 5 weeks. Since then I am sick. I took Fluconazol for a month but that did not help. I also stopped with eating sugar. I used a lot of prebiotics and probiotics. But I think before reparing my gut I have to get rid of a parasite. But I do not know which one. I hope that an internist can help me.

I have a feeling that all of these antibiotics and other pharmaceuticals worsen chronic infections. We hear a lot about how antibiotics cause c. difficile to take over the gut in some people, I think the same has happened to me but the bacteria is different.

When I took Metronidazole, my mouth started burning for months afterwards and my face would break out in sores that looked like impetigo. I started a regimen of vitamins, minerals and garlic pills which I now think may have helped. I stopped the regimen after 30 days as I don't like taking so many supplements due to the risk of kidney and liver damage. After I stopped, I think the burning in my mouth was possibly better but then I broke out in itchy sores on my scalp which a dermatologist diagnosed as scalp folliculitis and she put me on Lymecycline antibiotics which I took for over 6 months as it's a mild antibiotic. The scalp folliculitis improved after a number of months on Lymecycline and I was eventually taken off it. I then developed white pustules on my face that would come and go, they looked exactly like the kind of spots that staph aureus bacteria cause.

After taking the Ciprofloxacin, I developed crazy symptoms so perhaps the bacteria then spread everywhere in my body or perhaps they just took over my gut and caused my immune system to malfunction. Either way, I have so many different symptoms now in every part of my body.

I said in my last post that I am resurrecting the regimen that I took to get over the Metronidazole reaction. I now wonder if Garlic pills were the reason for improving since I now know that garlic is used to treat scalp folliculitis and staph aureus. I was originally taking a supplement called "Linden's Odourless Super Garlic" which contains 6000mg of garlic equivalent, I only took 1 or 2 of these softgels capsules a day for a month.

Now, I have started taking 1 Linden's Super Garlic softgel with 1 "Allicin Max" capsule. I started these 2 garlic supplements yesterday and I had quite a difficult night with a faster heartbeat and restlessness which I hope is die-off. In the morning, my heartbeat was fine again so I'm going to continue for now. I took my garlic pills today and had a sharp pain in my scalp which could be more bacteria being killed.

I'll see how this garlic goes, too often things start out well and then end up being disappointing. If anyone wants to try garlic supplements, beware that Allicin Max has a strong garlic odour after ingesting so maybe you'd want the odourless softgels if you are going to be around people, I'm taking both for now.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on April 10, 2019, 08:40:43 AM
‘Recurrent antibiotic exposure is associated with increased risk for depression and anxiety but not for psychosis.’

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26580313
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 16, 2019, 12:19:41 PM
I'm taking a break from vitamins and supplements, if they are doing anything positive then it's too gradual to notice. I'm currently testing Roquefort cheese, I have found a research article that suggests this French blue cheese (from sheep's milk) inhibits LPS (Lipopolysaccharides) inflammation. LPS is simply toxins produced by bacteria in the body (mostly the gut) that get into the bloodstream and cause havoc around the body:

Quote
Roquefort Cheese Proteins Inhibit Chlamydia pneumoniae Propagation and LPS-Induced Leukocyte Migration

Abstract
Inflammation in atherosclerosis, which could be associated with some subclinical infections such as C. pneumoniae, is one of the key factors responsible for the development of clinical complications of this disease. We report that a proprietary protein extract isolated from Roquefort cheese inhibits the propagation of C. pneumoniae in a human HL cell line in a dose-dependent manner, as revealed by the immunofluorescence analysis. These changes were accompanied by a significant reduction in the infective progeny formation over the protein extract range of 0.12–0.5??g/mL. Moreover, short term feeding of mice with Roquefort cheese (twice, 10?mg per mouse with an interval of 24 hours) led to the inhibition of the migration of peritoneal leukocytes caused by intraperitoneal injection of E. coli lipopolysaccharide. These changes were complemented by a reduction in neutrophil count and a relative increase in peritoneal macrophages, suggesting that ingestion of Roquefort could promote regenerative processes at the site of inflammation. The ability of this protein to inhibit propagation of Chlamydia infection, as well as the anti-inflammatory and proregenerative effects of Roquefort itself, may contribute to the low prevalence of cardiovascular mortality in France where consumption of fungal fermented cheeses is the highest in the world.

(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3655667/bin/TSWJ2013-140591.002.jpg)

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3655667/

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on April 16, 2019, 12:31:50 PM
Thanks, Simon.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 16, 2019, 12:48:54 PM
Thanks, Simon.

You're welcome.

One quote from that research article on Roquefort cheese really stands out to me:

Quote
"There are multiple reports regarding identification of C. pneumoniae in the tissues of the cardiovascular system, joints, brain, and meninges"

A lot of POIS sufferers are chasing viruses as a potential cause of these systemic issues we have. It looks like there are chronic bacterial infections that settle in all parts of the body, Roquefort appears to be useful against C. Pneumoniae. The article also mentions that heart diseases are very low in areas of France where this cheese is popular.

For people in the USA, unfortunately this cheese is banned by the FDA due to the bacterial counts being too high, it's a very strong blue cheese. It seems to be sold on Ebay but whether it would get past customs is another question.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 16, 2019, 01:25:10 PM
Looking back at my health history, a C. Pneumoniae infection would make sense for these reasons:

- I used to have chronic chest infections as a child (aged 4-7) during winter months, I was given amoxicillin in the form of a banana-flavoured liquid every year for a few years. My family then moved abroad to a country on the equator when I was around 7 years old and I didn't get sick any more due to the tropical climate. Aged 9, I came back to visit the UK during the school holidays and experienced pain when breathing in and out, my mother took me to a doctor who listened with a stethoscope and then suggested it was just stress though I wasn't stressed about anything and was actually enjoying my holiday although it was quite cold relative to the tropical country I was living in abroad. My family moved back to the UK a few years later and my health again started going downhill again.

- When I took Metronidazole a couple years back, I remember in the months after that I was having a really sharp stabbing pain in my right lung and also in my brain. The quote in my last post mentions that this C. Pneumoniae bacteria can invade the brain and its meningeal membranes. Pneumonia is well-known as a lung infection.

So, this is another promising avenue with some good circumstantial evidence pointing in its direction. Perhaps antibiotics allow C. Pneumoniae infections take over the body just like C. Difficile does.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on April 16, 2019, 02:00:25 PM
At my age 12-13, after tick bite, i did got severe lung infection, pneumonia on both wings because of doctors misdiagnose. I lay sick 3-4 moonth in bed taking antibiotics, since then i was sick more ofen, since then my health has never been the same.
I thing taht root couse of my pois is from there, bad genetics from mother side,
bad imunity.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on April 16, 2019, 02:13:44 PM
At my age 12-13, after tick bite, i did got severe lung infection, pneumonia on both wings because of doctors misdiagnose. I lay sick 3-4 moonth in bed taking antibiotics, since then i was sick more ofen, since then my health has never been the same.
I thing taht root couse of my pois is from there, bad genetics from mother side,
bad imunity.
Auto-immune diseases are theorized to start from an infection causing the immune system to mis-characterize our own tissue as that same infection. Maybe that's where our journey with POIS starts. 
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 19, 2019, 12:40:18 PM
I'm currently looking at supplementing Vitamin D at doses of 5000IU and above. I'll be taking Vitamins A and K1/K2 as cofactors.

Here's a research article about the function of vitamin D in maintaining the gut balance. Perhaps in some cases, POIS is a depletion of vitamin D which unbalances the gut and causes metabolic chaos including malabsorption of vitamins. People interested in Vitamin D may like to read about the "Coimbra Protocol" which is being used to treat Multiple Sclerosis.

Quote
Vitamin D Signaling through Induction of Paneth Cell Defensins Maintains Gut Microbiota and Improves Metabolic Disorders and Hepatic Steatosis in Animal Models

Abstract
Metabolic syndrome (MetS), characterized as obesity, insulin resistance, and non-alcoholic fatty liver diseases (NAFLD), is associated with vitamin D insufficiency/deficiency in epidemiological studies, while the underlying mechanism is poorly addressed. On the other hand, disorder of gut microbiota, namely dysbiosis, is known to cause MetS and NAFLD. It is also known that systemic inflammation blocks insulin signaling pathways, leading to insulin resistance and glucose intolerance, which are the driving force for hepatic steatosis. Vitamin D receptor (VDR) is highly expressed in the ileum of the small intestine, which prompted us to test a hypothesis that vitamin D signaling may determine the enterotype of gut microbiota through regulating the intestinal interface. Here, we demonstrate that high-fat-diet feeding (HFD) is necessary but not sufficient, while additional vitamin D deficiency (VDD) as a second hit is needed, to induce robust insulin resistance and fatty liver. Under the two hits (HFD+VDD), the Paneth cell-specific alpha-defensins including ?-defensin 5 (DEFA5), MMP7 which activates the pro-defensins, as well as tight junction genes, and MUC2 are all suppressed in the ileum, resulting in mucosal collapse, increased gut permeability, dysbiosis, endotoxemia, systemic inflammation which underlie insulin resistance and hepatic steatosis. Moreover, under the vitamin D deficient high fat feeding (HFD+VDD), Helicobacter hepaticus, a known murine hepatic-pathogen, is substantially amplified in the ileum, while Akkermansia muciniphila, a beneficial symbiotic, is diminished. Likewise, the VD receptor (VDR) knockout mice exhibit similar phenotypes, showing down regulation of alpha-defensins and MMP7 in the ileum, increased Helicobacter hepaticus and suppressed Akkermansia muciniphila. Remarkably, oral administration of DEFA5 restored eubiosys, showing suppression of Helicobacter hepaticus and increase of Akkermansia muciniphila in association with resolving metabolic disorders and fatty liver in the HFD+VDD mice. An in vitro analysis showed that DEFA5 peptide could directly suppress Helicobacter hepaticus. Thus, the results of this study reveal critical roles of a vitamin D/VDR axis in optimal expression of defensins and tight junction genes in support of intestinal integrity and eubiosis to suppress NAFLD and metabolic disorders.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5108805/
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on May 01, 2019, 02:04:57 PM
Not had significant improvement from my vitamin A, D, K & E regimens.

Bought some milled flaxseed which seems to temporarily replenish the fat that's missing under my eyes. There is a 2 day lag between taking the flax and seeing benefits. I guess flax fights lipid peroxidation.

I'm now focusing on B vitamins. I react badly to activated or coenzyme B complexes so I have bought some nutritional yeast flakes and may get some brewer's yeast powder later. Interestingly, brewer's yeast is used by new mothers to produce more breast milk due to it's high vitamin, mineral and amino acid content. If you believe that POIS happens when semen production depletes scarce levels of bodily resources then maybe these yeasts will help us too.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on May 05, 2019, 08:47:33 AM
Nutritional yeast seems to rebuild the fat under my eyes even better than the flax seed. However, I've stopped the yeast for now due to some adverse effects, I don't think my immune system likes it. I've ordered some Brewer's yeast which should be less salty and perhaps better tolerated.

I've been revisiting Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG lately. My POIS is kind of strange, I guess because my gut bacteria are seriously messed up by Ciprofloxacin. Sometimes having an O actually seems to make things better, it feels like an O shifts gut bacteria either favourably or unfavourably.

One thing I've noticed is that during an O, my underarm body odour becomes strange like the body is expelling something. I've tested a lot of probiotics but only Rhamnosus GG causes the same abnormal body odour. I've read that this strain of bacteria is very good at binding toxins and expelling them so I'll be experimenting further.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on May 05, 2019, 11:27:34 AM
Sometimes having an O actually seems to make things better.
Same here. I can shift the state (whatever that means) of my body by inducing an orgasm when I feel very bad outside of POIS (it feels like it's stuck in some bad state which It can be launched out of by orgasm). I still feel bad but less so. Orgasm should be somewhat intense otherwise it will make things worse. Orgasm might be a double edged sword. My interferon gamma seems to get suppressed temporarily by orgasm, so it might suppress an inflammatory state.

One thing I've noticed is that during an O, my underarm body odour becomes strange like the body is expelling something.

Same here again. It also expells something from the skin. My optometrist diagnosed me with Blepharitis and told me these channels under the eyelids were full of lipids and that I had to squeeze them out. So when POIS hits me these channels under my eyelids are accumulated with lipids (eyes get dry as well), heat will soften these lipids up so it can be pushed out more easily. These meibomian glands are being inflamed. My skin in general gets fatty and something is being expelled from the armpit yes, perhaps these might be lipids as well. POIS might attack gland specific tissue here.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on May 05, 2019, 01:46:17 PM
Sometimes having an O actually seems to make things better.
Same here. I can shift the state (whatever that means) of my body by inducing an orgasm when I feel very bad outside of POIS (it feels like it's stuck in some bad state which It can be launched out of by orgasm). I still feel bad but less so. Orgasm should be somewhat intense otherwise it will make things worse. Orgasm might be a double edged sword. My interferon gamma seems to get suppressed temporarily by orgasm, so it might suppress an inflammatory state.

One thing I've noticed is that during an O, my underarm body odour becomes strange like the body is expelling something.

Same here again. It also expells something from the skin. My optometrist diagnosed me with Blepharitis and told me these channels under the eyelids were full of lipids and that I had to squeeze them out. So when POIS hits me these channels under my eyelids are accumulated with lipids (eyes get dry as well), heat will soften these lipids up so it can be pushed out more easily. These meibomian glands are being inflamed. My skin in general gets fatty and something is being expelled from the armpit yes, perhaps these might be lipids as well. POIS might attack gland specific tissue here.

I have a feeling if we compared our symptoms, a lot of them would match. I too have the meibomian gland dysfunction and severe dry eyes, mine developed immediately after taking the Cipro, it's quite common for people that take this form of antibiotics. Here's a link that might interest you:

http://fluoroquinolonethyroid.com/book_page/how-my-flox-symptoms-were-affected-by-th-and-iodine/painful-dry-eyes/

I wouldn't read too much into what this person is doing with thyroid hormones and iodine. Taking iodine can supposedly induce autoimmune thyroiditis so I wouldn't mess with any of this stuff.

I've found that taking certain things like a probiotic called Zenflore or a prebiotic called "short-chain FOS" will make my dry eyes much worse. If I keep a certain diet then the dry eyes subside so I pretty much eat the same meal every day and that keeps symptoms more stable. Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG has possibly improved the dry eyes but I won't know for certain until I test it repeatedly.

At this stage, I think the most likely cause of all these metabolic and immune issues is that most of my gut bacteria were killed off by the antibiotics. I was reading an article about Rhamnosus GG today and it seems like the "Swiss Army knife" of gut bacteria, perhaps it will help cultivate some beneficial bacteria in my gut or perhaps the ecosystem damage is too great to recover. Here's the article:

https://www.clinicaleducation.org/resources/reviews/lactobacillus-gg-a-potent-immune-regulator-effective-in-many-disorders/

If FMT pills ever become commercially available in Europe, I will be one of the first customers. FMT in my opinion is currently run by arrogant cowboys who think they know everything about the gut so I think pills are some years away. Here are my issues with the current FMT practitioners:

- Most of them use enema delivery which isn't going to help the small intestine where I think a lot of the problems are. FMT PILLS WOULD SOLVE THIS ISSUE BUT MOST PRACTITIONERS THINK ENEMA IS BETTER AND REFUSE TO OFFER PILLS.
- To have FMT, patients currently have to sign a disease waiver whereby they can't sue if they catch something from the transplant. Insurers have taken an interest in FMT but have yet to provide any insurance policies as far as I know. I WOULD ACTUALLY ACCEPT THE RISK IF IT MEANT I COULD GET ON WITH MY LIFE.
- The preparation steps for enema FMT sound like they can do a lot of harm. Firstly, taking lots of magnesium and then having a colonic to "clean out the intestines". The intestines aren't meant to be clean and during a colonic, you are losing good bacteria and mucus. THIS IS THE MAIN REASON I REFUSE TO DEAL WITH THESE FMT COMPANIES, THEY SOUND LIKE ARROGANT COWBOYS. THEY AREN'T ACTUALLY CLASSED AS HEALTHCARE PRACTITIONERS AND YET THEY THINK THEY CAN JUST CLEAN OUT SOMEONE'S INTESTINES, THIS ARROGANT BEHAVIOUR WORRIES ME.
- They only test a donor's blood but don't test every sample due to the high costs. I GUESS THIS IS REASONABLE BUT I WONDER IF SOME DONORS ARE ABUSING THE SYSTEM AND GIVING SAMPLES FROM THEIR DISEASED FRIENDS IN ORDER TO EARN EXTRA MONEY.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on May 05, 2019, 03:00:22 PM
I'm not convinced it's the gut, it might be. Sometimes my brain reacts to food, like chocolate for example, it feels heavy (kicks in after ~60 min). It depends on the amount. I'm not sure about any cause discussed here on this forum to be honest. I feel like I'm boxing against a man wearing night vision goggles in a pitch dark room.

''or perhaps the ecosystem damage is too great to recover.''
Yes this is a scenario that is in the back of my mind.

I'm also tired of all these claims from clinical cowboys advertising their products.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on May 05, 2019, 03:40:55 PM
I feel like I'm boxing against a man wearing night vision goggles in a pitch dark room.

Same, I know a doctor from Egypt who has POIS, he's also completely clueless of what may cause POIS.
Currently I'm just hanging on a small thread of facts that I know aren't disputed. All are leading to immune dysfunction. I don't know how the neuro-symptoms are related. But all I know, is that after ejaculation my penis and groin region become on fire, and that dexamethason which is an immune-suppressant is the only thing that worked out for me. I also know that the neuro-symptoms are not neuro-inflammation related; i.e. not COX related since NSAID's are completely useless and not histamine related since anti-histamines are also completely useless. Based on that there is a connection between neuro-symptoms and the immune reaction that needs to be understood in order to even know how to deal with it.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on May 05, 2019, 03:59:39 PM
I had once groin (lies in dutch) problems and had a hard time standing on my leg. The doctor gave me an intramuscular injection with steroids once close to that spot. The problem was fixed for 4 hours. I could even run if I wanted. I can't remember the steroid he used. You said you were in contact with a belgian doc as well. Do they use this forum as in are they active on this forum?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on May 05, 2019, 04:08:29 PM
I had once groin (lies in dutch) problems and had a hard time standing on my leg. The doctor gave me an intramuscular injection with steroids once close to that spot. The problem was fixed for 4 hours. I could even run if I wanted. I can't remember the steroid he used. You said you were in contact with a belgian doc as well. Do they use this forum as in are they active on this forum?
No, they both know about this forum but they don't seem like they like to engage in it; they seem to favor Facebook more. To be fair FB is much more user friendly than this forum and it seems hard to convince them to jump into this forum, even though this forum is closer to the research world. I'll talk with the Egyptian and see if he likes to give this forum a go.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on May 18, 2019, 06:23:40 PM
I've made a lot of progress with my health over the last 2 weeks. I've been doing quite a few things so it's difficult to pin down what exactly brought about the improvements. Here's a list of the things I've been doing:

1) I am eating Babybel cheese (the original red, full fat variety). I was taking Thorne Vitamin K2 MK4 a month ago and perhaps that's why I can now tolerate cheese without getting bone spurs in my fingers or perhaps a probiotic shifted my gut bacteria and increased vitamin K production by my resident gut bacteria.
2) Probiotic 1 - B. Lactis BB12. I use an American brand called Align Daily Immune Support which I think may have now been discontinued.
3) Probiotic 2 - L. Rhamnosus GG (also known as LGG). I use a Polish product called "4 Lacti", it's in the form of liquid drops.
4) Probiotic 3 - L Acidophilus Unknown Strain. I use a product called "Lindens Pro Billion Daily".
5) I am eating dried Goji Berries. I use a product called Linwoods whole sun-dried goji berries.
6) I am now eating other forms of cheese, apparently they boost short chain fatty acids in the gut, which is good for inflammation. I don't do so well with cheeses that are grown with mould such as Brie, Camembert and Blue cheese but they may be beneficial still.
7) I'm also now eating a lot of white basmati rice.

The improvement I've had is that I can tolerate eating a lot more foods now without having scary symptoms appear.

With the probiotics, I tend to tolerate the BB12 better than the LGG or Acidophilus. After taking the Acidophilus, I woke up the next day coughing up a large amount of phlegm like I was suffering from a heavy flu. I've had this reaction previously with a B. Longum probiotic called BB536, I think it's a positive reaction, possibly my immune system eradicating some yeast like candida or perhaps a chronic Staph Aureus infection.

Even the BB12 produced symptoms initially. The first day I took it, I had a hard time getting to sleep that night, I had heart palpitations and just felt restless. Now, I don't have any issues with it. The Lactobacillus Rhamnosus GG gave me some abnormal body odour, possibly like my body was purging some toxins and I had some spots appear on my skin a couple days later.

I like the combination of B. Lactis, L. Acidophilus and L. Rhamnosus (Rhamnosus needs to be the GG strain). I've bought some new products like "Solgar Advanced Multi-Billion Dophilus" which is a complex that contains 3 powerful probiotic strains i.e. BB12, LA-5 and LGG. I've also bought some probiotics from a company called Optibac that contain combinations of B. Lactis and L. Acidophilus, they are called "Everyday Extra Strength" and "Everyday Max".

I've given up taking any supplements aside from the probiotics and seem to be better off. So, varied food and probiotics are working for me lately.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on May 19, 2019, 06:24:03 AM
Found an interesting research article that says B. Lactis BB12 and L. Rhamnosus GG have a synergetic effect when supplemented at exactly the same time. If they are taken at different times of the day then no significant synergy is found.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1472-765x.2000.00590.x
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on May 28, 2019, 12:00:09 PM
I'm still able to eat a lot more foods without triggering scary symptoms. I'm now wondering if the cause of my improvement was an L. Reuteri probiotic called "Biogaia Protectis baby".

I thoroughly recommend people read the following article about L. Reuteri, I'll summarise some of the key points but it's really fascinating what this probiotic can supposedly do for people with ill health:

Quote
Role of Lactobacillus reuteri in Human Health and Diseases

Abstract
Lactobacillus reuteri (L. reuteri) is a well-studied probiotic bacterium that can colonize a large number of mammals. In humans, L. reuteri is found in different body sites, including the gastrointestinal tract, urinary tract, skin, and breast milk. The abundance of L. reuteri varies among different individuals. Several beneficial effects of L. reuteri have been noted. First, L. reuteri can produce antimicrobial molecules, such as organic acids, ethanol, and reuterin. Due to its antimicrobial activity, L. reuteri is able to inhibit the colonization of pathogenic microbes and remodel the commensal microbiota composition in the host. Second, L. reuteri can benefit the host immune system. For instance, some L. reuteri strains can reduce the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines while promoting regulatory T cell development and function. Third, bearing the ability to strengthen the intestinal barrier, the colonization of L. reuteri may decrease the microbial translocation from the gut lumen to the tissues. Microbial translocation across the intestinal epithelium has been hypothesized as an initiator of inflammation. Therefore, inflammatory diseases, including those located in the gut as well as in remote tissues, may be ameliorated by increasing the colonization of L. reuteri. Notably, the decrease in the abundance of L. reuteri in humans in the past decades is correlated with an increase in the incidences of inflammatory diseases over the same period of time. Direct supplementation or prebiotic modulation of L. reuteri may be an attractive preventive and/or therapeutic avenue against inflammatory diseases.

Source: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2018.00757/full

Here's some of the points I really liked:
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Hopeoneday on May 28, 2019, 02:58:01 PM
Thanks Simon, usefull info.
I am trying to " playing with probiotic again", in the past i did
tryed only one or two strains probiotics, but now, i am trying
multiple strains together, and diffrent tipes.
Alsou i am traying to adjust diet, remowing foods that
i cant digest well, wheet-breads(giving me reflux , gerd).
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on May 28, 2019, 05:32:45 PM
Thanks Simon, usefull info.
I am trying to " playing with probiotic again", in the past i did
tryed only one or two strains probiotics, but now, i am trying
multiple strains together, and diffrent tipes.
Alsou i am traying to adjust diet, remowing foods that
i cant digest well, wheet-breads(giving me reflux , gerd).

If you want my advice, I would stick to single strain probiotics like Rhamnosus GG, BioGaia (Reuteri) or BB536 (Longum). I think probiotics with more than one bacteria are not good for the gut because the strains can clash with each other. If you are a patient person, take only one strain for a week and see if things improve. I ran out of patience, I kept changing probiotics each day and now I don't know which one helped me. It seems like some probiotics don't help until taking them for 1 or 2 weeks so it requires a lot of patience. I keep a diary of what probiotic I am taking each day and my symptoms so I can figure things out.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on June 05, 2019, 03:07:12 PM
The struggle I'm having is I believe I have some imbalance in my body but I'm not sure if it is bacterial or fungal. I'm thinking it is fungal because I react badly to fungal foods like nutritional yeast, blue cheese and mushroom supplements. I also have a lot of skin problems, I get very itchy and sometimes have a burning sensation.

I am now revisiting Garlic supplements for their anti-fungal properties. I took the following 2 products yesterday:
1. Lindens Super Garlic
2. Allicin Max

Overnight, my sleep was very disturbed and I experienced an uptick in my symptoms including pain around my body. I'm really hoping this is a herxheimer reaction i.e. die-off of yeast overgrowth. I will continue to take these garlic supplements daily for one to two weeks. I took these garlic supplements a few months back for 2 days at a low dose and don't remember having such a severe reaction, it could be the reason my food intolerances have improved so much. The one improvement I've had from the garlic so far seems to be much lower sugar cravings which does seem to indicate I've been dealing with yeast overgrowth.

One of my symptoms that has been absent for a few months is a scary pain in my eyeballs, this symptom returned after taking the garlic pills yesterday. I am wondering if I have systemic candidiasis and the eye pain is perhaps ocular candidiasis.

Here's a very interesting article about an elderly woman who suffered from eye pain and a lot of metabolic issues, her blood was cultured for yeast but nothing was detected. Her eye doctors seemed to be very competent, although they couldn't find any specific issues, they referred the patient to a retinal specialist who performed a vitrectomy (removal of the vitreous gel in the eye) and presumably the vitreous was cultured to identify a yeast infection. The main point I take from the article is that yeast overgrowth is incredibly difficult to detect with today's testing, they had to remove the jelly from this woman's eyeballs in order to identify the problem. She took fluconazole to treat the yeast.

https://www.reviewofoptometry.com/article/the-damage-candida-can-do

I saw an opthamologist for my eye pain and floaters, he did some testing but never identified any issue. I know the eye has its own microbiome and perhaps antibiotic use allows fungi to take over. When I took Metronidazole, I developed a burning mouth with ulcers and itchy welts around my mouth but doctors couldn't culture any fungi from a swab. I later developed severely itchy folliculitis of my scalp and again the lab couldn't culture anything so there's something really inadequate with swab testing. I managed to culture it on my own agar petri dish but had no way of getting it analysed, frustratingly.

I am stopping my probiotics for now as I don't know of any probiotic that can defeat a systemic yeast overgrowth. On another note, I've also been reading a bit about prostate cancer and the blood test that accompanies it called the "PSA test", apparently garlic lowers PSA levels so I wonder if yeast overgrowth is a main cause of prostate cancer development.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on June 06, 2019, 01:56:09 PM
Garlic contains a high concentration of FODMAPS by the way. I have been tested for a systemic Candida routine (by world leading doctors) but there is no evidence of systemic defects (this doesn't rule out an intestinal fungal overgrowth which is impossible to detect). The cultures taken are very prone to contamination. I also did a PSA test which was normal.

During my desenz I had moments short after subcutane injections where I felt completely normally. My oral mucous mebrane developed fully, muscles were stronger and I once ate something during this state which I could not tolerate normally and had zero reactions. This state is short-lived and could not be maintained. Sperm is a soup of immune modulators, it's unknown what mechanism is involved here.

I had severe eye pain in the past but I'm in a better state now as far as eye pain is concerned. If it was candida wouldn't it have progressed by now? Every local fungal infection I've had (skin, mouth) progressed without intervention.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on June 06, 2019, 03:47:42 PM
I seem to be doing okay with garlic, I think it takes at least 1 week to see noticeable improvements so I will update in future. The bad reaction on the first night has now lessened so I guess it was a die-off reaction.

Muon,

I don't know about progression of fungal infections, I think they are opportunistic and spread to different organs when antibiotics kill off bacteria and damage the immune system. It seems to be nearly impossible to detect candidiasis when it's hiding in internal organs.

I will provide an update on these garlic pills after a week, I am taking only the AllicinMax capsules now, at least 4 per day currently. The positive results so far seem to be lower sugar cravings. I also went shopping today and had one of those rare days when I have low anxiety and high confidence. I still feel quite fatigued so either I'm herxing from a gradual die-off or garlic is making other things worse. I may add some other antifungals like acidophilus and coconut oil if the garlic doesn't do anything.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on June 07, 2019, 03:30:28 PM
I've been looking for peoples' experiences of Garlic and found a really interesting poster on another forum. The poster is called "thebigpeatowski", here's a link to one of their threads:

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/the-best-of-times-the-worst-of-times.3340/page-9

Here are some quotes that I found interesting:

Quote
June 27 2014
Looking back: I discovered RP in mid-October of last year. I decided to make some HUGE changes in my life, I closed my business and moved to the country in November. By December I was seriously studying RP, applying all that I could learn and solely focusing on my health. I saw some improvements in many areas of my life(sleep, stress, PMS, hormones, etc.) and so I kept at it. However, some aspects of my health did not improve, and in fact declined RAPIDLY. These were my digestion, weight and skin. Everyone around me was like "what the hell?". By March I was a complete wreck on the inside (emotionally and intestinally) and on the outside (MAJOR ACNE and body fat). I took pictures of myself in December and March, the difference is absolutely striking....harsh winter indeed!!! My poor digestion became quite noticeable right around JAN/FEB... I remember worrying that I would have diarrhea at a Super Bowl party I was attending, so I just didn't eat.

My firm belief is that you're health is only as strong as what you digest and absorb. I can put boatloads of densely nutritious food down my throat, but if I cannot digest and absorb those nutrients it does me NO good. I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out WHY my digestion suddenly tanked on me. Was it food allergies? Histamine intolerance? Cancer?

While I did have adult hormonal acne prior to Peating, I did not have the atrocious acne that ensued after adding more carbs and dairy into my diet. I think the Progest-E and extra vitamin A have been responsible for a lot of my skin clearing. But removing dairy seems to be adding even more benefit. I am very much saddened by this and I hope that when my digestion gets better I will be able to add dairy back into my diet. For now, I am thoroughly enjoying my clear skin DESPITE STILL HAVING POOR DIGESTION.

I did not have this much excess body fat prior to Peating (gained 25 pounds Peating). The only things I changed from my previous diet were: severely restricting PUFA, swapping fruit for vegetables, adding much more dairy and swapping sugar for stevia in my coffee. Since June 1st I have had NO dairy and have lost a good bunch of weight in addition to my lovely clear skin.

I did not have chronic diarrhea prior to Peating. While I did have bowel issues, they leaned more towards constipation with only occasional diarrhea (once every couple months, never lasted for more than a few hours). On June 1st I started a very intense effort an trying to figure out which foods were causing me problems. I still have diarrhea, so it isn't the dairy because I have not had any. In fact I still can't seem to pinpoint it to any particular food as I have stated so many times before. Massive food elimination is not helping my chronic diarrhea. Histamine avoidance was also a dead end, made no difference at all. I have only tried the DAO enzymes once and so I can't really give any feedback on those.The carrot salad has helped with estrogen, but does not help with chronic diarrhea.

My doctor diagnosed me with IBS and wants me to go to Seattle and get tested for SIBO at Children's hospital. it takes several weeks to get an appointment and I am not entirely sure what that diagnosis will tell me that I don't already know. I firmly believe that my long and excessive history of antibiotic use is responsible for the gut dysbiosis that I am experiencing, so I will not take more antibiotics to merely put off the inevitable.

So now I am trying massive doses of raw garlic instead of antibiotics. I am hoping to eradicate what ever microbe is causing me duress. I also wonder if adding carbs caused this gut imbalance or perhaps I have had it all along, but kept it at bay with various supplements and starvation while low-carbing??? Maybe I picked up an infection? I just don't know... the garlic is BRUTALLY VILE, I don't recommend it to anybody unless you are desperate like me.

One other option is some sort of pancreatic insufficiency...I have not looked into this one much. If the garlic does not bring some sort of balance then I will explore this avenue further.

Quote
July 9 2014
QUICK UPDATE: My Garlic Shock & Awe treatment worked like a charm. Total MAGIC!!! Absolutely NO diarrhea, perfectly normal brown BMs and transit time.

This leads me to believe that I had some sort of serious gut flora imbalance, not sure how I acquired it, but raw garlic being a broad spectrum antibiotic has worked miracles. I am thinking that the Cyproheptadine did not work because it never addressed the underlying dysbiosis, which in my case was EXTREME. Perhaps because I struggle with hypothyroidism my immune system was not able to eradicate it on it's own.

All of my crazy food elimination schemes led absolutely no where. I kept coming to the same conclusion over and over: that it did not matter what I ate, it ALWAYS ended in yellow diarrhea. I knew the problem was ME and it got progressively worse with each passing week. However taking plenty of thyroid meds and carrot salad WAS NOT fixing the problem, I needed something MUCH stronger.

It got a bit scary as I entered a tail-spin of sorts: I became afraid to eat because every time I put something in my mouth it triggered diarrhea. Yet the less I ate the more my temps dropped, metabolism was sh*it and severe depression set in.

Since the chronic diarrhea has stopped I have had an ENORMOUS surge in energy and mood/happiness. Really unbelievable actually. I feel like I have my life back and can make plans and actually get stuff done....like I am not being poisoned anymore. Amazing.

My personal conclusion is that we all have gut flora, no matter what we try to do to eradicate it we can't, it's here to stay. In my experience, not all intestinal bacteria are friendly, some species seem to be much nicer than others. When the balance gets out of whack and severe dysbiosis sets in, it can cause inflammation which causes all kinds of food sensitivities and an increase in the release of serotonin. This mimics many different illnesses and can become very difficult to pinpoint.

For me, specific foods were not the trigger, although I still don't eat starches. Lowering serotonin with Cypro did not fix the CAUSE of my gut inflammation. Stopping the inflammation by kicking the hell-raising microbes OUT has resulted in lowered serotonin, I can tell by the way I feel. Happy/peaceful/positive/calm/fearless/love for everyone...etc. etc. etc.

AND I am THRILLED that I can eat again!!! I love to eat....At first it felt quite strange to actually use my colon again, after months of pure liquid the sensations of bulk were sorta strange....Really truly, you have NO idea how happy I am... :woo

Also, my skin is flawless...FLAWLESS! As in I went through this last cycle with not one zit!!! NO huge painful cysts, I can't remember how long it's been since that has happened, since I was on Accutane in college maybe? Thinking hell-raising gut flora might contribute to acne as well...

Oh, I wanted to add one more thought: I think my former (pre-Peat) High Fat/Low Carb diet DEFINITELY set me up for dysbiosis. I'm pretty sure that our intestinal lining needs sugar to be healthy/resistant to pathogenic bacteria. I also think that having inflamed guts in the presence of a higher fat diet (even healthy saturated fat) can contribute to endotoxin poisoning. For me, lowering my fat intake until my guts healed I think has helped with acne. I had loads of butter on my lobster last night and seem to be fine today.....mmmmm butter, Oh how I missed thee!!!

Quote
July 14 2014
I was desperate and so was willing to try ANYTHING. My diarrhea would go away for a bit and just when I thought I was done with it, it would start all over again. It got progressively worse with each passing month and I was feeling so defeated and depleted, I knew I had to take severe measures. Given my personal history of antibiotic use, I suspected that what ever sort of microbes I was hosting might be antibiotic resistant. The raw garlic was an easy and cheap way to test my theory. I took several cloves of raw organic garlic (close to 5 grams per dose) and pressed them with a garlic press into a small drinking glass, added a couple oz. of cold water and let it sit for a minimum of 15 minutes to let the enzymes develop. I drank this concoction (including eating the clove bits) three times a day for a week. It was brutal and I don't recommend it unless you are at your wits end. I had gut churning nausea, headaches, swollen lymph glands, itchy ears and fatigue for 4 days. I felt like I was coming down with the flu and thought that surely I had poisoned myself....TMI alert: What came out of me on day four was unlike any diarrhea I had previously experienced...and with that I suddenly felt better than I had in years. My depression lifted, my guts were calm and my stomach was flat. I had a mental clarity that I had not felt in as many years and I KNEW I was cured. Since then my energy has become steadily better with each passing day. No doubt due to my ability to ACTUALLY digest and assimilate nutrients from my food now.

My situation was extreme. I have scoured this website and others looking for someone who has actually had a ruptured appendix AND a long history of antibiotic use, I could find not find any fellow Peatians with similar gut issues. I understand that what I did was not part of a Peat type protocol, which is precisely why I am not recommending it. However, if it can help someone with SIBO or some sort of gut dysbiosis then I certainly want to pay it forward and share my personal experiment/experience.

I truly believe that anyone who struggles with a sluggish thyroid, has used antibiotics, birth control pills or other pharmaceuticals, experienced long term unrelenting stress or poor diet might suffer from a microbial imbalance.....just my two cents :2cents

Thanks Katty! I read about the flowers of sulfur and wanted to try it, but in the end it was easier for me to find raw garlic. I took it three times a day for a week and yes, the turning point was day 4. I guess the enzymes in raw garlic are actually able to dissolve bacterial biofilms and kill pathogenic yeast as well. It was the longest smelliest week of my life and COMPLETELY worth it.

Quote
August 20 2014
Yes I added dairy back in, no problems whatsoever, thank goodness!!! I went slowly with coffee and made sure that it had lots of milk and sugar and just a little at a time, again no issues and I can drink lots now. I was very nervous adding foods back in at first, but I have had no problems except with a pork fat salame bender that I went on which resulted in greasy skin and breakouts. No diarrhea since late June. I do get occasional bloating and have noticed the brain issues occur at the same time, so now I'm completely convinced they are related.

Oregano oil was not broad spectrum enough for me, same goes for coconut oil, carrot salad and apple cider vinegar. They all work to a degree and I still use them (I don't use oregano oil internally since starting Peat), but my situation was extreme and I couldn't wait around. I had been fiddling with food elimination and various tweaks for months and my diarrhea was getting worse with each passing week/month. I felt like I was starving. I needed something really strong and broad spectrum to give my guts a chance to find balance. Massive doses of raw garlic was a miracle for me. It did make my stomach hurt for five to ten minutes following ingestion, but only the for the first three days or so. Whatever microbes were raising hell are now quietly behaving.

I think I will do an Activated Charcoal Reboot once a week, on Sundays because that's the day that I take a break from any supplements. I'll also use it on an as needed basis if I get bloated again.

Interestingly, the poster took Metronidazole (a strong antibiotic that targets the gut) and had a similarly bad reaction to me:

Quote
May 16 2015
Hi moss...so you took Metronidazole and had these symptoms too?

It's been three months (exactly to the day) since I took that wicked med. All of my brain/tinnitus/gut issues are much better, but it's a super slow recovery for sure. I wouldn't be this far along without Nystatin and certainly would NOT be able to party properly on Cinco de Mayo without major repercussions. :lol:

At any rate, I'm done with GI docs. Even the forward thinking ones that do fecal transplants will not believe in Candida overgrowth of the bowel.....an utter waste of time for sure.

One random thought I had was this: (and please keep in mind that I know NOTHING about the immune system) What if a person had developed an allergy to yeast? Maybe that could be an exacerbating factor towards this normal commensal organism....I don't have AIDS/HIV so I'm still trying to figure out why MY body does not get this under control on it's own/quicker....or why it's so easily thrown out of balance, if that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on June 11, 2019, 08:30:06 PM
I took the Garlic for about 4 or 5 days and saw no improvements, I actually started breaking out in acne as well.

The supplements that have helped me so far seem to be anti-fungals. I'm currently retesting Colostrum LD, L-Arginine & Acidophilus.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on June 18, 2019, 10:43:31 AM
I believe Garlic really messed me up, all of my symptoms have been flooding back.

I've tried to recover with a mix of L-Arginine, Acidophilus and another probiotic. I've also just added dried Goji Berries. It's been 5 days since I stopped the Garlic pills and still things aren't back to normal so I'm left questioning whether the arginine and probiotics are as good I thought they were.

I've ordered some L-Taurine powder based on b_jim's experience and will be trying it in the next few days. L-Taurine sounds like it could be the solution to my issues because of these reasons:

1) Taurine is a co-factor for Magnesium and Calcium. I currently react badly to Magnesium, it worsens all of my symptoms so perhaps Magnesium supplementation is depleting what little Taurine I have available. I also react badly to Calcium supplements.

2) Taurine is the main amino acid in the eye, it is also an antioxidant that protects the eye from damage. My most severe symptoms affect my eyes; I have dry eyes, lots of eye floaters, sometimes a feeling like my eyes are swollen and going to explode, seeing flashes of light and intermittent blurry vision particularly when I eat green vegetables like spinach.

3) Taurine has been used to treat tinnitus. Tinnitus is another of my symptoms, I have high-pitched tonal tinnitus in my right ear and sometimes the pulsatile, heartbeat tinnitus in my left ear.

4) Taurine seems to be good for organs like the kidneys, liver & bones. I believe I have issues with all of these, I can't take most supplements without getting kidney pain. My blood tests for bone health are also abnormal.

5) Taurine has been shown to increase Testosterone. This is something I will be able to measure with ease since my Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) levels are abnormally high indicating some issue with Testosterone. Providing I tolerate Taurine, I'll be retaking the SHBG test.

6) Taurine seems to be good for muscles, it removes waste products that cause burning, fatigue and other issues. I have some burning sensation in my muscles and twitching, I also get a strange underarm body odour and my urine is very bubbly like I'm expelling something abnormal.

Here's a link to b-jim's original thread for anyone else interested in L-Taurine:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1430.0
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on June 18, 2019, 01:40:59 PM
Flares are also seen in autoinflammatory syndromes.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on June 19, 2019, 05:33:31 AM
I have some burning sensation in my muscles and twitching, I also get a strange underarm body odour and my urine is very bubbly like I'm expelling something abnormal.

I always get the impression that something is being dumped into my body and that some kind of clearance rate isn't high enough at that moment to get rid of this concentration, especially when the POIS reaction tones down it feels like my body is covered in something. (this is also something that I experience due to hot weather conditions without POIS trigger)

My interpretation is that POIS ignites an autoinflammatory reaction. Products of this reaction are being dumped into my body and when the autoinflammation diminishes the products are still there lagging behind with the clearance process. Since I also get an oily skin I suspect this might be lipid generation in general as a result of this inflammation. Yes sometimes my urine is bubbly as well.

This is a reason why I want to test for molecules like Lp-PLA2 and other lipid/enzyme products.

I also wonder what your interferon gamma level might be.

And about food reactions, I think it might have to do with an error in our mucosal immune system (perhaps POIS as well).
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on June 19, 2019, 09:54:45 AM
Garlic contains a high concentration of FODMAPS by the way. I have been tested for a systemic Candida routine (by world leading doctors) but there is no evidence of systemic defects (this doesn't rule out an intestinal fungal overgrowth which is impossible to detect). The cultures taken are very prone to contamination. I also did a PSA test which was normal.

During my desenz I had moments short after subcutane injections where I felt completely normally. My oral mucous mebrane developed fully, muscles were stronger and I once ate something during this state which I could not tolerate normally and had zero reactions. This state is short-lived and could not be maintained. Sperm is a soup of immune modulators, it's unknown what mechanism is involved here.

I had severe eye pain in the past but I'm in a better state now as far as eye pain is concerned. If it was candida wouldn't it have progressed by now? Every local fungal infection I've had (skin, mouth) progressed without intervention.

I personally think it would be easier to individually test all of the amino acids that deal with detoxification and see which one helps rather than spend loads of money on tests. L-Arginine detoxes ammonia and so far I've found that Arginine improves my gut transit and my sleep. I've also written previously in this thread about an Arginase enzyme that is shared by both the digestive system and the reproductive system so that could be a cause of POIS. L-Arginine apparently is better taken just before bed because it boosts growth hormone and improves sleep. I'm also testing L-Taurine which supposedly has similar benefits.

The food reactions had improved significantly before I took the Garlic and now I seem to have lost some progress. I will eventually find out which of the following gave me the improvement or maybe it was a combination:

Probiotics (BioGaia, BB12, Lindens Acidophilus, Rhamnosus GG)
L-Arginine
Colostrum LD
Goji Berries
Multivitamin
Cheese
Lactose-Free Whole Cow's Milk
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on June 20, 2019, 01:15:54 PM
I know from previous tests that Lysine and Arginine seem to help me. I found a research article that suggests I could be dealing with a mitochondrial disorder, chronic fatigue has been one of my symptoms:

Quote
Abstract
Mitochondria are important subcellular organelles involved in the energy production that are susceptible to oxidative stress. Acute myocardial infarction has been shown to correlate with an increase in oxidative stress. The protective effect of L-arginine and L-lysine on mitochondrial enzymes, mitochondrial lipid peroxidation, Ca2+ content, enzymes of respiratory chain and ATP production was examined during isoproterenol induced myocardial infarction. Rats administered isoproterenol (150 mg kg-1 daily, i.p.) for two days showed a significant increase in mitochondrial lipid peroxidation and Ca2+ content while the activities of the cardiac marker enzymes, mitochondrial tricarboxylic acid cycle enzymes, enzymes of respiratory chain and ATP production were decreased. Prior oral treatment of L-arginine (250 mg kg?1 daily) along with L-lysine (5 mg kg?1 daily) in combination for 5 days significantly (p < 0.05) prevented these alterations and restored the mitochondrial function at near normal state. These results confirm the combined efficacy of L-arginine and L-lysine in alleviating isoproterenol induced mitochondrial damage.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0271531703002343
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on June 20, 2019, 07:57:40 PM

I always get the impression that something is being dumped into my body...


Same here.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on June 24, 2019, 05:36:34 PM
When you say you've had success with anti fungals which anti fungals are you talking about? I seriously think a certain type fungus are part of the cause of my health problems
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on June 29, 2019, 04:13:40 PM
I haven't had any major success, something seems to have given me improvements but I'm still trying to pin it down. I do think my issues are caused by a bacterial or fungal overgrowth.

I am going to take a break from writing on this forum until I can provide you guys with some useful information.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on June 30, 2019, 08:17:25 AM
Simon I went and bought l-arginine colostrum and super enzymes as I do trust your analysis and instincts for which treatments you try for yourself. I have been saying for a long time that I think all my problems are due to some type of fungus. With the combo of  l-arginine taurine colostrum and super enzymes I feel much more clear headed and confident, clear spoken and not imbalanced, I'm pretty sure its mainly down to the colostrum. I then thought if I'm feeling like this why not try some Os and my orgasms were much stronger and way more pleasurable than they usually are. I had 4 Os which would usually cause me to be messed up for at least a few days but this time I've recovered in less than 24 hours. Before then I haven't had any os or nocturnal emissions for over a month and my sex drive has been non existent, I guess not such a bad thing when you have POIS. I have been getting weird sensations in the prostate since taking this but maybe  this could be something that is being healed.

The only thing that worries me about colostrum is that I have seen some studies saying it increases the PSA antibody fast which rapidly increases the rate of prostate cancer progressing and I think it can also initiate it. It also increases the IGF1 growth hormone which has a direct link to many cancers. Its annoying because I think this treatment can help me a lot but I don't want endanger my health long term because I didn't consider the risks of the supplement. Please let me know what you think about this. I have alpha blockers for the prostate which I was prescribed years ago but I never tried ,I wonder if this could have any similar effect to the colostrum?
Watch this video from a prostate doctor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv637SA5c6o&t=580s


I have also stopped eating vegetables and started using gluten free products instead of just eliminating gluten and from this I have felt much better. When I was in keto without any gluten or carbs I would feel spacey but when I have gluten free products I feel more human and normal.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 01, 2019, 10:24:16 PM
The specific colostrum I use is Sovereign Labs Colostrum LD (vanilla flavour), I don't trust any of the other brands.

I have had the big improvements like you've described but they are only temporary for me. I need to experiment more and return to this forum with a completed protocol.

I haven't read about the risks of taking colostrum. Please take it at your own risk, unfortunately I can't help you make this decision.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 01, 2019, 10:35:58 PM
Also, if you decide to stop the colostrum I don't think it's a big deal. I have found improvements from several different supplements, there's always something else to try.

As an example, the colostrum may be boosting your immune system to kill a fungal overgrowth but you might find garlic does the same thing or maybe taking a certain probiotic does this as well. I do think there is more than one way to do this.

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 07, 2019, 03:33:55 PM
Anyone interested in Candida Albicans as a cause of POIS might be interested in the following research article. There's a lot of information in there, it describes POIS symptoms including brain fog, sinus issues, body aching, inability to expel toxins.

Molybdenum is a substance that can be used to expel the Candida toxins.

http://www.arthritistrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Molybdenum-for-Candida-albicans-Patients.pdf


Edit

Here's another interesting link about one doctor's experience self-treating candida with molybdenum:

http://www.mall-net.com/cooter/moly.html
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 13, 2019, 02:11:38 PM
I'm still playing around with various supplements like Allicin, Aged Black Garlic, my 4 single-strain probiotics (BB536, 299v, BioGaia & Linden's Acidophilus).

I'm not sure about amino acids yet, I get the impression they are deficient but supplementing them (mainly arginine) feeds some harmful pathogen. L-Arginine seemed to give me some benefits the first time I took it but then caused some hair loss and cartilage pain, I am guessing it caused an L-Lysine deficiency since Lysine is used for hair and cartilage production. Arginine and Lysine compete with each other so maybe I need to take them both together. For now though, I'm testing just the Lysine.

This may interest some of you. I found an account of someone who suffers from Ménière's disease; their experiences and the protocol they are using is eerily similar to mine. Here's the link:

https://joebongiorno.com/menieres-disease
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 16, 2019, 06:02:40 PM
Further to my last post, I believe that L-Arginine helps me in small doses like 500mg a day or less but I had some bad symptoms develop when taking 3000mg per day of L-Arginine, I believe this was due to an L-Lysine deficiency caused by too much L-Arginine. L-Arginine and L-Lysine compete with each other.

One of my bad symptoms from high dose L-Arginine was hair loss and I found someone else who had a similar experience:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/l-arginine-supplements-sudden-rapid-hairloss.101641/

I was reading another thread on the POIS forum where the person had good results with L-Arginine on the first day and then some issues on the second day:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=506.msg11584#msg11584

I wonder what would happen if this person took both L-Arginine and L-Lysine together or they kept the L-Arginine dose to 500mg or less.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 17, 2019, 11:29:26 PM
I have just about exhausted all of my options with supplements.

I believe 2 things have caused the recent improvements in my health:
1) Full-fat, lactose-free milk.
2) Probiotic - B. Longum BB536.

Tomorrow, I will be trying some whey protein isolate, hopefully it is a stronger version of the milk I'm drinking. Whey contains amino acids and boosts glutathione.

Anyone who has tried whey already, feel free to post your experiences.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 18, 2019, 05:39:09 AM
My experience with whey was bad. I did get a few red spots on my lower arms or hands and more brainfog. Unprocessed meat is still the best source of protein for me.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 18, 2019, 01:38:48 PM
My experience with whey was bad. I did get a few red spots on my lower arms or hands and more brainfog. Unprocessed meat is still the best source of protein for me.

I have some doubts about whey also. Protein may be the wrong part of the milk, I may need the fatty acids and fat-soluble vitamins instead. I previously changed from whole/full-fat milk to a semi-skimmed milk and it seemed like things maybe got a bit worse.

I'm finding this supplement testing very slow progress, it takes weeks of starting and stopping supplements repeatedly before I can even begin to figure anything out.

Muon, have you tried drinking lots of full-fat, lactose-free milk? About 2 large glasses per day.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 18, 2019, 06:03:31 PM
I seem to have reacted badly to Whey protein isolate, had symptoms like feeling dizzy, loss of balance and numbness in my arms and legs.

I'm left wondering why drinking full-fat milk seems to make me better but powdered whey isolate and bovine colostrum seem to do the opposite. I used to drink cows milk every day as a child, perhaps my gut bacteria and immune system became dependent on it. I stopped drinking milk when I became severely lactose intolerant during my teenage years.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 19, 2019, 04:35:22 PM
I will probably be testing a B12 injection soon, the milk that has helped me is apparently one of the best sources of absorbable B12 so I am revisiting my previous B12 theory that I had postponed due to my fears of injecting B12.

I previously tried 3 types of B12 tablets, the Methyl and Hydroxy versions gave me a bad reaction but the Cyano version (the artificial type) was tolerated up to 1000mg.

B12 is a difficult vitamin because the stomach has to first produce a substance called intrinsic factor in order to absorb the B12. People with stomach issues or an autoimmune disease that attacks the stomach will struggle to get enough B12 even with oral supplementation.

My plan is to finally get the testing done before I take any B12 injections. The B12 tests are a pain in the neck because there is no easy way to identify it, you basically have to look at substances that indirectly interact with B12.

I will order the following 5 tests:

I will order some Cyanocobalamin vials from a German pharmacy where the stuff is available without prescription and will see if I can work up the nerve to risk injecting myself.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 19, 2019, 04:53:24 PM
Muon, have you tried drinking lots of full-fat, lactose-free milk? About 2 large glasses per day.
No but my brother did.

I will order the following 5 tests:
  • Intrinsic Factor Antibodies (Autoimmune Test)
  • Parietal Cell Antibodies (Autoimmune Test)
  • Methylmalonic Acid
  • Homocysteine
  • Active B12 (I don't think this test accurately shows B12 availability but I included it anyway)

I did 2, 4 and 5. Test 5 has been executed 3 times by two different specialists. Test 2 and 4 are normal but all the active Vit B12 tests came back elevated.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 19, 2019, 05:19:55 PM
I'll see what happens with the new B12 tests but I will probably have to try a B12 injection even if the tests are within range.

I know my Homocysteine levels are already on the high side, I had it tested twice previously:

1st test: 15.10 umol/L (<15)
2nd test taken one week later: 13.70 umol/L (<15)

Reference:
Desirable level up to 10 umol/L.
>15 umol/L may indicate increased risk of cardiovascular disease.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 19, 2019, 05:34:54 PM
By the way osteocalcin directs fat cells to release adiponectin and adiponectin is inversely correlated with body mass index. What is your BMI?

Oh and you talked about Vit K2 a while back. Doesn't vit K2 turns uc-osteocalcin into osteocalcin? I guess there are no problems with K2 levels being low since osteocalcin is elevated.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: certainlypois2 on July 19, 2019, 10:10:01 PM
Muon, are you and your brother twins.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 20, 2019, 02:54:11 AM
Muon, are you and your brother twins.
No
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: BoneBroth on July 20, 2019, 06:04:20 AM
Hi Simon66! I just read up on your symptoms and they look like the same symptoms as for excess cortisol (connective tissue damage, joint pain, fat padding loss, bruising). Bellyfat and build-ups around the cheek area and neck lump is also common on cortisol excess. I have many of theese symptoms as well. However, if you experience improvements by increasing the building blocks for cortisol (whey, protein and fats) maybe it's not the cortisol itself that is the problem, but the balancing anabolic hormones (testosterone, DHEA).

Thats why other people here got improvements by eating eggs and doing testosterone replacement therapy (testosterone patches). So why is there a lack of anabolic hormones? I can think of two reasons: 1. Not absorbing enought cholesterol because of gut/stommach problems. 2: "Prednelone steal" (a.k.a "cortisol steal"). During POIS the adrenals pump out cortisol like crazy to combat the POIS-caused inflammation. So all raw materials goes to cortisol and nothing left to DHEA etcetera. Healthy adrenals secrete equal amounts of cortisol and DHEA upon stress. User Nanna1 showed an example of laboratory test result from an Egyptian engineer with POIS. His cortisol levels were hight and DHEA/testosterone low. Cortisol is our friend when we have POIS because it stops the inflammation, and balanced with DHEA it should not have any side effects at all, particularly not bioidentical cortisol (the one we produce ourself). The reason cortisol treatment has got a bad reputation is because it is administered at hospitals without protectice hormones. Studies shows that bioidentical cortisol administred with anabolic hormones does not have the same side effects. In addition, a hight protein diet is protecting from cortisols side effects.

I have started a hight protein diet now. More eggs (6-12 a day), protein supplements, EFA's and coconut oil (in addition to Nanna1's supplement stack). And I'm also trying to fix my gut problems (Aloe Vera juice, fibers, bioresonance teraphy etcetera). I'm thinking to try testosterone patches/pregnelone cream as well. Does anyone here got better with DHEA supplements or prednelone cream?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 20, 2019, 02:34:10 PM
By the way osteocalcin directs fat cells to release adiponectin and adiponectin is inversely correlated with body mass index. What is your BMI?

Oh and you talked about Vit K2 a while back. Doesn't vit K2 turns uc-osteocalcin into osteocalcin? I guess there are no problems with K2 levels being low since osteocalcin is elevated.

My weight changes depending on what I eat but nothing strange that would indicate Osteocalcin causing such problems. Yes, Osteocalcin is activated by K2. I was supplementing K2 MK4 and MK7 some months ago but have stopped for now. I could retest Osteocalcin but I can't justify the cost or effort to get these tests done privately anymore, supplements are a lot cheaper to try.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 20, 2019, 02:51:09 PM
Hi Simon66! I just read up on your symptoms and they look like the same symptoms as for excess cortisol (connective tissue damage, joint pain, fat padding loss, bruising). Bellyfat and build-ups around the cheek area and neck lump is also common on cortisol excess. I have many of theese symptoms as well. However, if you experience improvements by increasing the building blocks for cortisol (whey, protein and fats) maybe it's not the cortisol itself that is the problem, but the balancing anabolic hormones (testosterone, DHEA).

Thats why other people here got improvements by eating eggs and doing testosterone replacement therapy (testosterone patches). So why is there a lack of anabolic hormones? I can think of two reasons: 1. Not absorbing enought cholesterol because of gut/stommach problems. 2: "Prednelone steal" (a.k.a "cortisol steal"). During POIS the adrenals pump out cortisol like crazy to combat the POIS-caused inflammation. So all raw materials goes to cortisol and nothing left to DHEA etcetera. Healthy adrenals secrete equal amounts of cortisol and DHEA upon stress. User Nanna1 showed an example of laboratory test result from an Egyptian engineer with POIS. His cortisol levels were hight and DHEA/testosterone low. Cortisol is our friend when we have POIS because it stops the inflammation, and balanced with DHEA it should not have any side effects at all, particularly not bioidentical cortisol (the one we produce ourself). The reason cortisol treatment has got a bad reputation is because it is administered at hospitals without protectice hormones. Studies shows that bioidentical cortisol administred with anabolic hormones does not have the same side effects. In addition, a hight protein diet is protecting from cortisols side effects.

I have started a hight protein diet now. More eggs (6-12 a day), protein supplements, EFA's and coconut oil (in addition to Nanna1's supplement stack). And I'm also trying to fix my gut problems (Aloe Vera juice, fibers, bioresonance teraphy etcetera). I'm thinking to try testosterone patches/pregnelone cream as well. Does anyone here got better with DHEA supplements or prednelone cream?

Thanks for the response, I do think there is a cascade of problems and a cortisol response to some underlying issue. It does seem like most POISers have some kind of resource deficiency in the body perhaps due to some bowel malabsorption issues.

I retried whey protein isolate today and haven't gotten any bad symptoms yet so perhaps it was just a one-off bad reaction that I experienced 2 days ago. I actually tried some aloe vera juice yesterday (tastes revolting like eating air freshener) and felt much worse in the evening so not sure about it.

I personally steer clear of hormone and steroid supplements. I hear that once you start taking hormones, the body won't produce it's own to the same levels as before. Artificial steroids used to suppress inflammation cause all kinds of problems long-term like bone necrosis.

If you're pursuing the protein supplements as a solution to POIS, it may be worth you creating a thread for this as there seem be different types of protein like whey concentrate, whey isolate, casein. I'll happily contribute my experiences if you send me a link.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 20, 2019, 04:09:46 PM
I'm putting my B12 investigations on hold. I may not have reacted badly to Whey protein at all, I ate a cheap curry on that day and I suspect that was the cause of my dizziness and loss of balance.

I took a half scoop of whey isolate (12.5 grams) this morning without any problems and I've now just taken a full (25 gram) scoop. Tomorrow, I should know if whey isolate is useful. I may lift some weights also tonight in order to boost my testosterone and use some of this protein in my body.

From what I've read, whey is a useful supplement for healing the gut due to the rich source of aminos and proteins:

Quote

Whey protein concentrate (WPC) is a protein-enriched powder made from whey during the process of cheese making. It is commonly used in the manufacturing of foods for infants and young children. Emerging evidence has demonstrated that WPC is useful for the treatment of a wide variety of gastrointestinal disorders such as inflammatory bowel disease and necrotising enterocolitis( 1 , 2 ). It has been found that the beneficial role of WPC in the intestine is closely related to its numerous bioactive compounds including functional amino acids, lactoferrin (LF) and growth factors, which is largely attributed to the stimulation of mucin synthesis and modification of immune response( 2 , 3 ). Recently, it has also been reported that WPC improves intestinal epithelial barrier function in vitro ( 4 ). However, the molecular mechanisms underlying the protective effects are poorly understood.

WPC contains abundant bioactive compounds that are vital for immune and gut development early in life( 5 , 6 ). Among the most relevant substances in WPC are Ig, LF and growth factors (e.g. transforming growth factor ? (TGF-?) and epidermal growth factor (EGF)). Nevertheless, investigations directly examining the role of WPC in affecting the barrier integrity in vivo have not been reported. It is also of great interest to investigate whether bioactive compounds in WPC can be partly involved in WPC-induced prevention of intestinal epithelial barrier disruption. Until now, there are little data about the role of WPC in restitution of intestinal epithelium after injury( 4 ).

Source: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/whey-protein-concentrate-enhances-intestinal-integrity-and-influences-transforming-growth-factor1-and-mitogenactivated-protein-kinase-signalling-pathways-in-piglets-after-lipopolysaccharide-challenge/BA1FCE198FADAC7AA05E6C0E7365A574/core-reader#


Quote

Whey comprises major proteins, for example, b-lactoglobulin, a-lactalbumin, serum albumin, immunoglobulins and glycomacropeptide (Eigel et al., 1984), as well as minor proteins such as lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase. Many of these proteins have been found to possess a variety of bio-active properties including modulation of the immune system. Furthermore, minor changes in dietary amino acid profile, due to consumption of different whey protein mixtures, have been found to modify the immune response without having a significant impact on nutritional status, suggesting that different WPC preparations can have different effects on the immune system.

Source: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09540100120094519
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 21, 2019, 04:49:53 PM
I took quite a lot of Whey Isolate yesterday and the only improvement seems to be better gut transit. I think all of the aminos in whey might be good for building the gut mucosal lining. My other issues have not improved though.

I didn't take low-dose L-Arginine yesterday and had more pain in my perineum where I have some kind of persistent tissue tear. It seems like there is a delay between taking L-Arginine and getting the benefits. I am taking a low dose (between 250 and 500mg) daily and I think it starts working after maybe 5 days. I do wonder why there is a delay, perhaps Growth Hormone or something else is slowly boosted.

One thing Arginine is used for is producing Creatine. I have for the first time tried a very small dose of Creapure Creatine today so I will provide an update on the effects. Those interested in Creatine should first do some reading as there are warnings that supplementing it can damage the kidneys.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 22, 2019, 11:50:56 PM
I tried some whey isolate again, it doesn't do much for me other than improve my gut transit. A side effect is it causes my body odour to become abnormal.

I am wondering if I have ammonia issues. Ammonia is a byproduct of amino acid breakdown and whey is a good source of amino acids. I've started taking a supplement called Now Tri-Amino, it contains Arginine and Ornithine which are used to detoxify ammonia. The Tri-Amino also contains Lysine which seems to balance with the arginine. I have a feeling ammonia is mostly detoxed during sleep so I'll post an update soon.

I also tested creapure creatine for 2 days and can't say I've noticed any effects.

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 23, 2019, 01:40:09 PM
I think there is something very important about L-Arginine. I keep having to rotate my supplements in order to figure out what helps and what doesn't, it takes months to get a good idea of what works.

L-Arginine does something significant and it's going to take me a while to figure it out. I also need to figure out whether I need to be taking some L-Lysine with the L-Arginine to balance it out.

I'm just posting this information in the event someone else here wants to test it. If you do, I recommend first buying the Now Sports L-Arginine Powder (large orange tub), I have no affiliation with this brand but I have bought a few different L-Arginine products and the quality of each differs a lot. Also, the Now Sports L-Arginine smells exactly like my semen does which might be an indication that POIS (in my case) is some sort of Arginine deficiency caused by semen production.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 23, 2019, 03:07:14 PM
(https://d9aqs07uebq07.cloudfront.net/content/clinchem/53/2/161/F1.large.jpg)

''A logical strategy to reverse the competitive inhibition of NOS by ADMA would be to employ supplemental L-arginine. However, studies of supplemental L-arginine in patients with coronary artery disease are small, and the results have been mixed''

Problems with NOS/NO function/levels could lead to endothelial dysfunction and could explain why people don't tolerate hot showers. The endothelial response is off. Decreased NO levels are also associated with premature ejaculation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24118023

I'm not sure these oral supplements will reach the bloodstream intact.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 23, 2019, 04:29:09 PM
I'm not sure these oral supplements will reach the bloodstream intact.

The first time I took it, I had an erection the whole night in bed so I know it reaches the blood although I haven't been able to get that reaction again a second time.

I've been having some pain in my heart area possibly from taking a calcium supplement. When I took the 3 grams of L-Arginine today, it felt like a blockage clearing in that area, but I can't be certain. It also feels like maybe my mood is better on both Arginine & Lysine.

I've just taken 3 grams of L-Lysine (to match the 3 grams I took of Arginine earlier) because I think it balances with the Arginine. The Lysine I use is Now L-Lysine Pure Powder, it's a big white 454 gram tub containing just L-Lysine Hydrochloride with no harmful fillers. I've read that some people take the Lysine and Arginine at opposite ends of the day so they don't block each others' actions.

When I was previously taking at least 3 grams of the Arginine powder with 3 grams of Lysine powder, my face looked a lot healthier each morning whereas normally I look like death with dark patches under my eyes and visible blue veins.

I have ordered some Now Sports L-Ornithine powder to see if building my own Tri-Amino powder helps even more.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 23, 2019, 05:03:34 PM
I've been having some pain in my heart area possibly from taking a calcium supplement. When I took the 3 grams of L-Arginine today, it felt like a blockage clearing in that area, but I can't be certain.

I'm having heart problems every day now. The hot weather is so hard to deal with, it's wrecking me. I had some gut pain when temperature peaked and feeling like veins were reacting abnormal on my head. I'm living like a vampire at the moment avoiding sun rays.

In a few days time it will reach 39 degrees celsius here, this could be problematic. Symptom intensity seems to be a function of temperature and can build up. At some threshold they can make an discontinuous jump and things might spiral out of control. I hope that will not happen. In 2014 gut pain (gut motility felt really low at that moment as well) and eye pain exploded at the same time at a certain temperature. There is activity in a layer just below the skin's surface, it's reactive to temperature, not sure what is happening there, it feels unstable. I suspect hot weather is inducing low grade inflammation in my body. I'm not sure why I'm telling this but whatever.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 24, 2019, 08:22:27 AM
Do you have dry eye syndrome as well?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: BoneBroth on July 24, 2019, 10:41:22 AM
Do you experience skin discoloration (permanent or temporary) on exposure?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 24, 2019, 01:53:38 PM
There are a number of parts of the body that interact with L-Arginine such as the Arginase enzyme, Nitric Oxide enzymes & peroxynitrite (a harmful oxidant). I found a research article that seems to link these substances in semen to Zinc levels.

Basically, it says Zinc Sulfate can restore things to normality:

https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1477-7827-12-1

So, I will try adding Zinc to my Arginine experiments.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on July 29, 2019, 04:06:28 PM
I do not think antiobiotics is the main cause of POIS, but it could made my POIS worse. One of the side effects of antibiotics is that it has an effect on the brain. It could be that I have more fears for pain and phobias because of antibiotics.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 31, 2019, 01:21:02 PM
I do not think antiobiotics is the main cause of POIS, but it could made my POIS worse. One of the side effects of antibiotics is that it has an effect on the brain. It could be that I have more fears for pain and phobias because of antibiotics.

I too have anxiety and I also get OCD.

When I took the antibiotics, the anxiety became so severe that I was too scared to be in a room on my own and I had a strong desire to commit suicide, it was very bizarre. I guess my neurotransmitters and hormones were messed up. I still have vivid dreams every night since this antibiotic and sometimes they become scary nightmares.

I'm looking at different amino acids currently. I think L-Arginine makes my sleep deeper but it doesn't treat the vivid dreams so I'm looking at maybe taking some L-Tryptophan to see if that can suppress the dreams. I've already tried Glycine and L-Taurine which seemed to have no effect. I may try L-Theanine in future.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 31, 2019, 01:32:38 PM
It has been a week since I last posted, I tried taking only L-Lysine 1000mg 3 times daily (3000mg/day) without any L-Arginine and things seem to have gotten worse. I also retested Glycine and L-Taurine, they seemed to make me worse.

So, my focus is on L-Arginine for now. I've also been testing some Zinc Picolinate (Now brand) and it possibly makes my skin clearer.

One of my persistent issues is vivid dreams or nightmares every night, I'm looking at L-Tryptophan as a possible way to get some peaceful sleep without dreaming. I came across a research article that might link bad dreams to an overgrowth of bacteria or fungi:

Quote

Abstract
Antimicrobial peptides encompass a number of different classes, including those that are rich in a particular amino acid. An important subset are peptides rich in Arg and Trp residues, such as indolicidin and tritrpticin, that have broad and potent antimicrobial activity. The importance of these two amino acids for antimicrobial activity was highlighted through the screening of a complete combinatorial library of hexapeptides. These residues possess some crucial chemical properties that make them suitable components of antimicrobial peptides. Trp has a distinct preference for the interfacial region of lipid bilayers, while Arg residues endow the peptides with cationic charges and hydrogen bonding properties necessary for interaction with the abundant anionic components of bacterial membranes. In combination, these two residues are capable of participating in cation–? interactions, thereby facilitating enhanced peptide–membrane interactions. Trp sidechains are also implicated in peptide and protein folding in aqueous solution, where they contribute by maintaining native and nonnative hydrophobic contacts. This has been observed for the antimicrobial peptide from human lactoferrin, possibly restraining the peptide structure in a suitable conformation to interact with the bacterial membrane. These unique properties make the Arg- and Trp-rich antimicrobial peptides highly active even at very short peptide lengths. Moreover, they lead to structures for membrane-mimetic bound peptides that go far beyond regular ?-helices and ?-sheet structures. In this review, the structures of a number of different Trp- and Arg-rich antimicrobial peptides are examined and some of the major mechanistic studies are presented.

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0005273606001404

Basically there are parts of the immune system that require Arginine and Tryptophan. Perhaps an overgrowth of bacteria or fungi can deplete the immune system of its raw materials.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 31, 2019, 02:20:29 PM
Serum tryptophan and serotonin are both 33 euro. If you got a group of lets say 20 men and want to measure both parameters it will cost 1320 euro. A basic paper can be written if there are results. We can argue year in year out about tryptophan and serotonin, nothing happens, it's all speculation so far. These things can be tested without doctor's permission. Example (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2af7202xa3gqpiw/AACrvZK9pbVvp0kUXOAO1NCba?dl=0&preview=Bro+1-2+5HT%2BTrypto%2BIDO%2BIGE.pdf).
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on July 31, 2019, 02:55:33 PM
Serum tryptophan and serotonin are both 33 euro. If you got a group of lets say 20 men and want to measure both parameters it will cost 1320 euro. A basic paper can be written if there are results. We can argue year in year out about tryptophan and serotonin, nothing happens, it's all speculation so far. These things can be tested without doctor's permission. Example (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2af7202xa3gqpiw/AACrvZK9pbVvp0kUXOAO1NCba?dl=0&preview=Bro+1-2+5HT%2BTrypto%2BIDO%2BIGE.pdf).
Agree, I think a crowd funded research attempt at brain parameters would be beneficial to this illness. 
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 31, 2019, 03:04:50 PM
These things can be tested tomorrow. I didn't get any email back from the clinical trial lab. I've sent another email to them, I'm getting frustrated here. I want access to more parameters. If I get the green light we can discuss which parameters are of interest and start crowdfunding. If I don't get the green light there are still interesting parameters left to choose from like the above mentioned.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Nas on July 31, 2019, 03:28:07 PM
These things can be tested tomorrow. I didn't get any email back from the clinical trial lab. I've sent another email to them, I'm getting frustrated here. I want access to more parameters. If I get the green light we can discuss which parameters are of interest and start crowdfunding. If I don't get the green light there are still interesting parameters left to choose from like the above mentioned.
Maybe we can start a new crowd fund but this time testing the brain chemistry of POIS?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 31, 2019, 10:50:06 PM
I ended up ordering some GABA powder (Now brand) as it sounds like that is more effective at suppressing dreams than the l-tryptophan.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 03, 2019, 08:07:54 PM
I'm curious if any has done hair mineral analysis, I did one by Trace Elements inc. I had some doubts about the accuracy of hair mineral tests but the deficiencies are exactly the same as my expensive blood tests.

At the time of the test, I had low Copper and Manganese. Both of these minerals are used in the body to produce antioxidant enzymes called Superoxide Dismutase (SOD). I already know from an expensive antioxidant test I did that my superoxide enzyme is quite elevated suggesting I have a lot of oxidative stress in my body and perhaps mitochondrial dsyfunction.

Has anyone else done hair mineral analysis and found similar deficiencies in copper, zinc or manganese?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on August 04, 2019, 05:20:53 AM
I already know from an expensive antioxidant test I did that my superoxide enzyme is quite elevated suggesting I have a lot of oxidative stress in my body and perhaps mitochondrial dsyfunction.

Has anyone else done hair mineral analysis and found similar deficiencies in copper, zinc or manganese?
No but my mitochondrial function has been checked which was fine.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 05, 2019, 05:08:22 PM
Here's my latest list of supplements that I think have an impact on my condition:

1. BB536 Probiotic - I know this has some positive effect on my health, I think it boosts good gut bacteria.

2. Allicin Max (Garlic Supplement) - It feels like this one fights some kind of systemic overgrowth in my body, whether fungal, viral or bacterial.

3. L-Arginine - I think this does something positive at certain times, it may need to be taken with a tiny amount of L-Lysine. L-Arginine boosts Nitric Oxide and is supposedly good for fighting candida albicans infections.

4. Zinc Picolinate - I'm still testing this one, it may clear my skin. My working theory is it boosts the immune system and clears bacterial overgrowth of the skin. People often use zinc to treat acne rather than drugs like Accutane that are known to damage the body.

I had stopped taking the Allicin Max for a few weeks because I didn't feel like it was helping anymore. When I started again today, I had a heavy heartbeat for 2 hours and then I suddenly felt better than I have in a few weeks.

I did the same thing with the BB536 probiotic, I stopped for nearly a month. When I started taking the BB536, the next morning I was coughing up phlegm which from experience feels like my body clearing something.

These strange reactions to Allicin Max and BB536 only happen for the first 1 or 2 days so it really does seem like there is some systemic infection(s) that needs to be kept at bay. I am going to try and find some other supplements that might help and build some kind of artificial immune system since mine really doesn't work properly.

I have already tried Oregano Oil and feel that gave me a bad reaction, it felt like it was worsening whatever overgrowth I have. Oregano Oil does carry warnings that it can kill good bacteria so I guess I should avoid it in future.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 11, 2019, 08:42:36 PM
I'm aiming to take an extended break from posting on this forum. My problems are somewhat more complicated than POIS due to the antibiotics I took.

My protocol for the next few months is going to include the following:

1. Some combination of L-Arginine and L-Lysine: I haven't worked out the ideal dose yet. I need to be careful not to damage my kidneys with too many supplements.

2. BB536 Probiotic: I have some expensive high strength probiotics that I get from Japan, I've added images of the new (black box) and old (blue box) packaging below. I will be taking one sachet (50 billion cfu) per day for a few months.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/419UNQyqfHL._SY450_.jpg)
(https://tshop.r10s.jp/energy/cabinet/03153809/4902720078757.gif?fitin=330:330)

3. Miscellaneous Supplements: I will probably rotate some supplements like Allicin Max (Garlic pills), a child multivitamin and may experiment with some fruit powders for their antioxidant bioflavonoid properties. I have a few other probiotics that I may use in combination with the BB536 such as L. Reuteri (Biogaia), L. Plantarum 299v (Jarrow Ideal Bowel Support) and L. Acidophilus (Lindens Pro Bio Live Max).

I still believe the gut has a lot to do with my issues. I know from testing my antioxidant enzymes that I have high levels of oxidative stress in my body which seems to manifest as connective tissue damage (spontaneous bruising, slight muscle tears & burning nerve sensations) and maybe other things like fatigue, poor sleep and low mood. When the oxidative stress was very high, I would get pain in my neck/ear cartilage and could feel that the cartilage was missing in these areas. After months of recurring neck pain, the hyoid bone in my neck actually started to come loose and now occasionally clicks out of place when I swallow food or water. During this horrible period, I discovered that taking the probiotic BB536 at 2 billion strength seemed to bring me instantly out of this state whereas taking Bacillus "spore probiotics" would put me back in that bad state. I bought a month's worth of this BB536 probiotic at high strength (50 billion daily) and took it intermittently over the next 5 months. During this period, my health improved significantly but I cannot be certain that this probiotic was the cause.

Long story short, I am going to be concentrating on taking 50 billion per day of this BB536 probiotic for probably 4 months and then I will report back with my findings. I want to see if it is possible to recover my health to levels I haven't seen in 20 years just by targeting gut health.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on August 12, 2019, 08:50:54 AM
It's not sure probiotics can influence microbotia.
There are pro and cons.


The first argument was stomach acid kill most of bacterias.
But some studies show some bacterias have a good resistance and a part of them (1% to 20% ?) can cross the stomach alive.
And of course, you can use gastro-resistant caps.

The second was even if you take billions of bacterias it"s few compared to the whole microbiota.
And even if you can influence it's a temporary effect. Microbiota keep its homeostasis.
The real way to make a real change is microbiota transplantation.
But it's a very recent science and under severe controle.
Unbalanced microbiota could lead to disease or death.

So, I 'm not sure these complements are usefull. Maybe, maybe not. Some doctors use the word "psychobiotics" so the influence migh be real.
But the easy way to have a good microbiota is to eat tons of organics fruit, vegetables and plants. Nature, cooked, sprouted, lacto-fermented...

Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on August 12, 2019, 05:46:49 PM
Hi b_jim,

I have been doing a lot research on gut bacteria. From what I've read, the gut ecosystem is fully developed by the age of 4 years old and the bacterial strains are then not easily changed from that point.

I guarantee you that most probiotics reach the gut intact, I can feel the effects on the day after I take them. The real question is whether the supplement has been stored badly by the seller and the bacteria have died. The strain of bacteria is also very important, people think buying a probiotic with 30 strains is better than a single strain product but those 30 strains might be taken from a pig's gut and not be very effective in humans or those strains could not be well studied or they might interfere with each other. The BB536 I take is from a human gut, it was compared alongside a number of other human bacteria and found to have the best beneficial properties for human health.

I did a lot of research into microbiota transplantation (FMT), it seems like the effects for that might be temporary. I wrote a list of issues I have with FMT in this thread a while ago, there's a lot of problems they need to fix before I would ever try it.

The psychobiotics, as I understand it, refers to probiotics that can improve mood. I have a few probiotics that claim to improve mood called "Zenflore" and "Florassist Mood", they seem to all be strains of Bifidobacterium Longum. My BB536 probiotic is also a strain of B. Longum and seems to help my mood. I do think there is a link between gut dysbiosis and mental disorders like depression.

My experience of probiotics is that they can shift your bacteria in a positive direction but they do not colonise the gut permanently so they need to be supplemented regularly, the main difficulty is finding one that is effective for your particular gut. I have taken prebiotics like FOS, GOS and inulin but it feels like these feed the bad bacteria too. I also react badly to fermented foods and I think this may be because of the large amounts of fungi they contain, it is suggested that anyone with SIBO should avoid fermented foods.

To put my experiences simply, I have been seriously ill and tried everything possible to improve my gut (excluding FMT). Finding an effective single-strain probiotic like BB536 appears to have gradually corrected my gut imbalance and I will probably have to take it for life, which is fine by me despite the cost. I think I was on the very extreme of gut dysbiosis, pretty much anything I consumed would trigger severe issues resembling autoimmune disease and I suppose that is because I don't have much good bacteria left. I seemed to tolerate BB536 so I kept upping my dosage and now I can eat most foods. I still have trouble with fermented foods, possibly because they contain large amounts of bacteria and yeast which undermines the effects of the BB536.

When the providers of FMT fix the many issues with the procedure, I will gladly consider trying it. I still get the impression that the human gut doesn't easily allow new strains to colonise permanently so maybe the effects of FMT wear off after 2 months. I think in the future they will just put the FMT bacteria in a capsule and people will take it everyday like a multivitamin, it will be a 1000 strain probiotic. The other future technology with hopefully be Human Milk Oligosaccharides, these are the natural prebiotics found in human breast milk that help babies to build a gut ecosystem.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: b_jim on August 18, 2019, 10:10:07 AM
I'm happy if it works for you. Keep us informed next months.  8)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on September 08, 2019, 02:21:53 PM
Simon I tried L argigine maybe i felt good the first few times for a few hours but then it stopped, it also started making me fatigued especially after showers and fatigue is never one of my usual symptoms, it also made me feel a bit anxious and foggy after a while

I have started drinking much more water than I was, before I was still drinking a lot maybe 2-3 litres a day. Now I have increased this quite a bit and started drinking a litre of water in maybe 5 mins. I feel incredible and way less foggy then I ever was honestly this feels better than any supplement I've ever tried. I am aware its not safe to drink more than a litre of water per hour and not more than 3 litres per day so I need to proceed with caution. I have been having a glass of water with Himalayan pink salt to try and balance the sodium after drinking thas much but I feel better without the salt drink lol. Also if I eat a meal which gives me brain fog and drink a litre of water after it quickly and I feel a lot bette than without.

It also feels like im flushing out some fungus bacteria in my stools and also urine with this increased water consumption, I am aware of the dangers of water intoxication if you're worrying about that.

On top of that I'm starting to do high intensity exercise like sprinting and also swimming. Before I was just doing three mile long runs quite fast and this wasn't really helping me at all and also gave me a brain fog and speech problems after the run and daily yoga wasn't helping that much. However I do think Yin yoga is good for POIS. I think short high intensity exercise is the best thing for pois and our brain fog.

I have been trying creatine, l glutamine and ionic zinc and can't really tell if they are helping or not. I've become more skinny than I want to be from a low carb diet so I'm working towards gaining more weight and muscle mass and slowly eating more low glycemic carbs. Also have joined the gym as I want to get into shape and lift weights.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on September 17, 2019, 07:25:16 PM
Hi Iwillbeatthis.

When I first took L-Arginine, I limited the dosage to about 250mg a day (Swanson Ajipure Arginine capsules) and around that time I had improvements in some symptoms (like dry eyes) but couldn't make a definite link to the Arginine due to the amount of other things I was taking. I next got a pure powder called "Doctor's Best L-Arginine" which was in the form of Arginine HCL (not a good form of Arginine) and I found it affected my sleep badly so I stopped.

Eventually, I found a product called "Now Sports L-Arginine powder" which is "Free-Form" Arginine (the most usable form of amino acid) and it contained no fillers. I took a large 3000mg dose of the Now Sports powder and the next morning found my worst post-antibiotic symptoms returned like hair falling out and soreness in my ear and neck cartilage. I thought the hair loss might be due to low levels of L-Lysine (this is the amino acid that antagonises Arginine and vice-versa) so I started taking an equal amount of L-Lysine with the L-Arginine.

For years before I took the fateful antibiotic, I had been dealing with chronic fatigue syndrome and strange things like a muscle tear that gets worse after an orgasm (some kind of connective tissue disorder). I found that taking the Arginine/Lysine combination would stop the muscle pain and I think Arginine on its own might actually do the same thing. I have since taken a 3000mg dosage of Arginine again without any Lysine and didn't get the same scary symptoms so I'm thinking maybe the Arginine caused some kind of die-off reaction. When I then took the Arginine on it's own, I tended to wake up heavily fatigued so I added the Lysine again and found that got rid of the heavy fatigue in the mornings.

Today, I decided to try 3000mg of Arginine on its own again and within about 4 hours, I had a racing heartbeat, sinus pain and heavy fatigue (so it seems Lysine might block some of the effects of Arginine). It's amazing how similar this sounds to what you're dealing with. I am going to stop the Lysine and just take Arginine in various doses over the coming days, I need to find out if this really is a die-off reaction.

Regarding the salt, I personally wouldn't consume that since salt is an inflammatory and it can deplete things like calcium. With exercise, when I used to force myself to go cycling, I would stay out for about an hour and generally felt a lot better. I don't think exercise clears a fungal overgrowth though so I stopped.

I've tried the Creatine, Glutamine and Zinc. I'm really not sure that they've helped.

All signs do point to this being a fungal overgrowth. Here's an article that suggests Nitric Oxide kills Candida but that the Candida finds a way to disable the Nitric Oxide:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096203
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1905260/

Arginine is one of the best ways to boost Nitric Oxide and perhaps kill off a candida overgrowth. I also have some Colostrum LD that may be equally good at killing candida. The real difficulty is figuring out whether something is a die-off reaction or if it's actually making things worse, that takes so much time.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on September 17, 2019, 07:27:00 PM
Interesting Curezone post here, person took antibiotics and had problems with ejaculation. They suspect it is some kind of fungal candida overgrowth:

https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=2201869#i
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on October 05, 2019, 12:57:35 PM
I've been testing my existing supplements. Here's what I've discovered:

BioGaia Protectis Probiotic Baby Drops (L. Reuteri) - This initially caused stinging in my gut which I believe was some pathogen being killed off. I'm now able to take loads of this probiotic without such a reaction. This is the only probiotic that I remember having such a reaction (and I have about 30 different probiotics) so it must be quite unique. This probiotic is apparently good for killing candida.

Sovereign Labs Colostrum LD - This also caused stinging in my gut. In the same way as the BioGaia, I could eventually take as much as I wanted without any reaction. I didn't feel like this supplement helped long-term and it's extremely costly so I've stopped.

Now Sports Arginine Powder and Now Lysine Powder - Balance of these two amino acids seems very important. Taking Arginine on its own fixes my chronic sinus congestion. Taking Lysine on its own has a bad effect. Taking Arginine and Lysine together repairs some connective tissues. I am still trying to find the best combination of these two.

Now Calcium Carbonate - This seems to give me really good energy but eventually I start getting stabbing pain in various parts of my body which I believe to be calcium deposition. The antibiotic I took Ciprofloxacin has been known to screw up calcium channels in the body.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on November 08, 2019, 12:18:39 PM
I'm still wondering if POIS is a fungal infection, maybe in the testicles. At one point in time, I had bouts of stabbing pain in my left testicle that made it difficult to walk. My symptoms are located in such specific areas of the body that I really do think this is a systemic, lingering infection that the immune system can't touch.

Taking Arginine initially seems to cause a rapid heart beat and some connective tissue pain but only for the first day and then my health starts to improve. Arginine boosts nitric oxide and supposedly kills candida. Arginine is a double-edged sword because it feeds viruses so I can't take it in large doses.

I think good bacteria help prevent such systemic infections and I've nuked my immune balance by taking antibiotics too many times. Some probiotics help and others seem to make things worse. Colostrum LD definitely does something but I think it needs to be taken for several months to get visible benefits.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Guts on November 08, 2019, 08:04:48 PM
Back when i was 22/23 I developed severe inflammation pain in my shoulders to the point where i had to stop doing anything, i had to stop every sports even just holding a packet of milk would hurt. It felt worse than extreme high intensity weight training. Like someone grabbed a syringe with alcohol, chili pepper and vinegar and jammed it into my shoulders. this spread to other parts of the body later on. For about a year testicle pain where occasionally its was too difficult to walk or use the bicycle. At one point i had to lay on bed and screamed of testicle pain i wanted to go to the emergency department but i knew they wouldn't help just like last time. Doctors wouldn't prescribe anything for pain. 
 
This is garbage....it completely sucks... also all movies, documenteries (also hollywood movies) about auto-immune diseases are trash... they don't even come close to reality. That "brain on fire movie" total garbage.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on November 09, 2019, 06:35:36 PM
Have you done any experimenting with L-Arginine?

This amino acid is definitely involved in both connective tissue and sexual function, it also seems to affect the immune system.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on November 25, 2019, 01:49:24 PM
Simon, have you ever done a feces test for Beta-defensin 2? See this post:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg31902#msg31902
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on November 27, 2019, 06:40:36 PM
Simon, have you ever done a feces test for Beta-defensin 2? See this post:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg31902#msg31902

No, but I'm fairly confident that the gut is the source of my problems so that test wouldn't help much. Whether it's a bacteria/fungal imbalance, a damaged gut lining or some kind of inflammation syndrome, I'm not sure yet.

I know I have signs of some mild connective tissue disorder in my body and there is a specific area of my gut that feels damaged when I ingest certain essential oils. It seems like Arginine (possibly with Lysine) is the best way to rebuild damaged bodily tissues but it takes weeks of supplementing to get results.

Arginine is supposed to fix gut inflammation if you read this research article:
https://iai.asm.org/content/81/10/3500

I think I'm getting close to figuring my health issues out. I've stopped all of my supplements except Arginine but I'm still not sure if some Lysine is needed.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Mushnikk on December 02, 2019, 10:51:25 AM
Simon, have you ever done a feces test for Beta-defensin 2? See this post:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg31902#msg31902

No, but I'm fairly confident that the gut is the source of my problems so that test wouldn't help much. Whether it's a bacteria/fungal imbalance, a damaged gut lining or some kind of inflammation syndrome, I'm not sure yet.

I know I have signs of some mild connective tissue disorder in my body and there is a specific area of my gut that feels damaged when I ingest certain essential oils. It seems like Arginine (possibly with Lysine) is the best way to rebuild damaged bodily tissues but it takes weeks of supplementing to get results.

Arginine is supposed to fix gut inflammation if you read this research article:
https://iai.asm.org/content/81/10/3500

I think I'm getting close to figuring my health issues out. I've stopped all of my supplements except Arginine but I'm still not sure if some Lysine is needed.

How much arginine do you take? I could not find dosage recommendations to rebuild the intestinal barrier.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: demografx on December 02, 2019, 03:22:59 PM
Mushnikk, welcome to POISCenter!
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 03, 2019, 11:07:16 AM
Simon, have you ever done a feces test for Beta-defensin 2? See this post:

https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.msg31902#msg31902

No, but I'm fairly confident that the gut is the source of my problems so that test wouldn't help much. Whether it's a bacteria/fungal imbalance, a damaged gut lining or some kind of inflammation syndrome, I'm not sure yet.

I know I have signs of some mild connective tissue disorder in my body and there is a specific area of my gut that feels damaged when I ingest certain essential oils. It seems like Arginine (possibly with Lysine) is the best way to rebuild damaged bodily tissues but it takes weeks of supplementing to get results.

Arginine is supposed to fix gut inflammation if you read this research article:
https://iai.asm.org/content/81/10/3500

I think I'm getting close to figuring my health issues out. I've stopped all of my supplements except Arginine but I'm still not sure if some Lysine is needed.

How much arginine do you take? I could not find dosage recommendations to rebuild the intestinal barrier.

I wish I knew the ideal dosage to rebuild the gut mucosa. I do know that some muscle pain elsewhere in my body gradually heals over 1 or 2 weeks at fairly low doses of Arginine (1 gram a day), possibly with Lysine. Having an orgasm or drinking some harmful substance like coffee seems to stop the healing and trigger the muscle damage so I would guess abstaining from such triggers for a week while taking the Arginine should hopefully start healing. I've been wanting to try some higher doses of Arginine, people with mitochondrial diseases take over 10 grams a day but I have no idea if that's safe and I'm a bit concerned about depleting other amino acids in the process.

I take 1.5 grams minimum in a day, sometimes 3 grams of the Now Sports Arginine powder. Lately, I balance the Arginine with equal amounts of Lysine because I think the Arginine reactivates latent viruses in my body when taken on its own for more than a week.

If you're not already aware of the relationship between Arginine and Lysine, that's something to read up on. In short, these two amino acids interact with each other, taking only one can cause deficiencies in the other. Arginine and Lysine are both involved in connective tissue production.

For your information, some people advise against taking Lysine long term, large doses are apparently hard on the kidneys.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 03, 2019, 11:40:47 AM
I think ANS imbalance/SNS overactivity should be fixed first before you can address gut repair. It's like pumping air into a flat tire otherwise. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: drop247 on December 05, 2019, 05:31:56 AM
Interesting article Simon66. I have been experimenting with Glutamine myself for the last week based on the recommendations of this page:
https://goodbyeleakygut.com/l-glutamine-leaky-gut/ (https://goodbyeleakygut.com/l-glutamine-leaky-gut/)

I ramped up to 30g per day but unfortunately had to travel for a few days and couldn't bring my powder with me. So I'm back to baseline. I did notice some changes to my bowel habits though that were positive. My normally loose stools were much improved and I even went a whole day without a bowel movement which for me is very unusual. I'm restarting the experimentation now. Please keep us posted on Arginine.

It's interesting your article mentions malaria. I did get infected with malaria once in my life though it was after I started having POIS. My POIS at the time shortly after my malaria infection was treated (and cured) was the worst of my life. So bad I nearly lost consciousness once. Perhaps this was due to malaria's effect on arginine levels and damage to my gut.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 08, 2019, 11:03:03 AM
Neural regulation of gastrointestinal inflammation: Role of the sympathetic nervous system (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S156607021300773X)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 08, 2019, 11:36:58 AM
drop247, thanks for the information. I have tried L-Glutamine without success. I am using Arginine with Lysine but my results aren't consistent.

Neural regulation of gastrointestinal inflammation: Role of the sympathetic nervous system (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S156607021300773X)

Muon, I would not be surprised if the gut and brain is a 2-way street, both influencing each other via the vagus nerve. People treat depression with Arginine and Lysine so I wouldn't say I am just focusing on the gut. My approach is just to test supplements and see what helps, it's a lot easier to do that than rely on expensive lab tests which I have grown tired of paying for.

I am retesting Molybdenum for anyone interested in my current progress. I'm fairly reactive to vitamins and minerals since my antibiotic usage, I get the feeling that some unknown deficiency is preventing important metabolic processes from working. I am intolerant to most B vitamins, Manganese, Calcium, Magnesium and probably many others so perhaps they antagonise Molybdenum.

I keep a daily diary of the supplements I take, the foods I eat and the symptoms I experience. From looking back in my diary, it is possible that intermittent Molybdenum use has improved my Chronic Fatigue so I will be trying to determine if this is the case. Molybdenum is a cofactor in enzyme function, it helps process sulphur foods and it detoxes the byproducts of candida such as acetaldehyde.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 12, 2019, 05:02:41 PM
Here is a guy who had a high lipid profile and SIBO. They have used a treatment plan to lower it. Just dumping it here in case you might want to try some stuff for your high lipid profile. Also see table 2 for an antimicrobial protocol to treat the SIBO and dysbiosis. High Cholesterol and Heart Disease Case Study (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c063/f98a2f044d828dcfcdc5c0760b3e9665ff07.pdf)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 13, 2019, 04:14:41 PM
Here is a guy who had a high lipid profile and SIBO. They have used a treatment plan to lower it. Just dumping it here in case you might want to try some stuff for your high lipid profile. Also see table 2 for an antimicrobial protocol to treat the SIBO and dysbiosis. High Cholesterol and Heart Disease Case Study (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c063/f98a2f044d828dcfcdc5c0760b3e9665ff07.pdf)

There's definitely some kind of cascade that causes all of these issues, I'm keeping an open mind.

I am currently testing Beta-Alanine which is a precursor to an antioxidant amino acid called L-Carnosine. There's a nice fact sheet here:

https://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2012/6/Carnosine-Proven-Longevity-Factor

The part that interests me is that Carnosine can recover damaged mitochondria (which the Cipro antibiotic I took apparently causes). I know from my medical test results that my Superoxide enzymes are extremely high which could suggest mito dysfunction. There are other indicators that Carnosine might help, particularly around calcium transport and also with mood. The Cipro antibiotic caused me to be intolerant to calcium supplements and it also caused severe anxiety initially.

Carnosine is apparently best supplemented by taking precursors Beta-Alanine and Histidine. I will report back with my results soon, I am using Now Sports Beta Alanine.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 13, 2019, 05:08:41 PM
I wonder if you are triggering something via calcium channels with calcium supplements. What amount/dose are we talking about and how much time does it take before you feel bad after ingestion? The combination of superoxide and high cholesterol could be related to endothelial cells/sheer stress.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 13, 2019, 07:17:40 PM
I wonder if you are triggering something via calcium channels with calcium supplements. What amount/dose are we talking about and how much time does it take before you feel bad after ingestion? The combination of superoxide and high cholesterol could be related to endothelial cells/sheer stress.

For a while I had the same reaction to calcium when eating foods like cheese. One possibility is that oxidative stress depleted carnosine in my muscles and then my body had no means of signalling calcium.

Within 24 to 48 hours, I would end up with painful calcium deposits in my hands. It was like the body didn't have the means to put the calcium where it needed to go.

I've improved and now don't really react to foods anymore. I'm still looking for the magic bullet that fixes all of my problems, amino acids seem promising but it's going to take a long time to find the right combination. With Beta-Alanine, it can take months for all of the muscles in the body to become saturated with Carnosine. Carnosine is used as a buffer to control lactic acid, maybe a deficiency would also explain why my legs sometimes burn.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 15, 2019, 11:54:44 AM
It seems to me that most supplements are not going to be a cure. Amino acids and probiotics can change symptoms temporarily but they are never consistent.

On some of the Facebook groups I have joined, people talk about how bathing in the sea reduces their symptoms greatly. The last time I went in the sea, I do remember feeling happier and having more energy.

My next plan is to try salt flushes with Celtic Light Grey sea salt, this should hopefully help control pathogenic bacteria in my gut and also balance trace minerals. I may also add lemon to this mixture. I am highly sensitive to Iodine supplements and other minerals like Calcium and Magnesium, perhaps sea salt is a good way to re-balance my body's minerals.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 15, 2019, 12:15:04 PM
Not sure if I have asked you this before but have you ever done some kind of breath test for SIBO?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 15, 2019, 02:01:19 PM
Not sure if I have asked you this before but have you ever done some kind of breath test for SIBO?

Yes, but I think they tested only Hydrogen, not Methane SIBO. It was negative for Hydrogen SIBO but Lactose intolerance test was positive.

Since I took an antibiotic called Metronidazole, I have persistent skin problems on my face and scalp. As a test, I once spent 3 months eating only chicken, carrots, broccoli and red cabbage. What I found from this diet was that my skin cleared up completely, I lost most of my body fat and looked really healthy but it was miserable cutting out carbs, I felt like there was no point in living without nice food. I actually stopped the diet because I started getting heart palpitations which might have been die-off or perhaps a deficiency of some unknown mineral like Potassium.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 15, 2019, 02:16:48 PM
They can measure 3 types of gas molecules: H2, CH4 and CO2. And you can combine any of those with molecules, often complex carbs, like lactose, fructose, glucose, lactulose, xylitol, sorbitol etc.

What molecule did you ingest for the hydrogen SIBO test? So they have used H2 for the lactose test?
I think the food reactions have something to do with Tregs, mast cells or T-helper cells. The body seems easily getting sensitized to stuff.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 15, 2019, 03:18:34 PM
Hydrogen SIBO, I think they used a glucose/dextrose powder dissolved in water.

For Lactose, I think it was a pure lactose solution and they measured Hydrogen.

When I took the Cipro antibiotic, I couldn't tolerate most foods for at least a year. I think my microbiome has gradually improved over this time and now I only have to be careful with things like coffee and alcohol. Coffee is a really bad trigger, I don't think that stuff is good for the human body. Certain prebiotic powders can also trigger severe symptoms and also "spore probiotics" which suggests my symptoms probably are bacteria related. Gut bacteria regulate the immune system response.

Probiotics aren't a 100% cure, I need some way of controlling the bad stuff. I just took my first salt water flush, not pleasant but maybe I will feel good when I wake up tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 18, 2019, 03:32:49 PM
It definitely feels like viral reactivation is part of my condition. Sea salt made my symptoms much worse and L-Lysine seemed to help calm things down.

I found this article about a man who got sick, his doctors gave him a strong antibiotic called Ciprofloxacin (this same antibiotic that affected me so badly) and he promptly died of multiple organ failure. In the post-mortem, the doctors discovered most of his organs contained Herpes Simplex Type 1.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cricc/2012/359360/
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 21, 2019, 07:13:30 PM
I'm testing the infection theory by supplementing L-Lysine, Vitamin C (in several forms), Copper, Zinc and Molybdenum.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 21, 2019, 07:17:10 PM
Have you taken a look at nanna's virus related threads and his suggestions?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 24, 2019, 06:29:03 PM
Have you taken a look at nanna's virus related threads and his suggestions?

Thanks, I had a look. There's a few things he takes that I am exploring like vitamin C and NAC (N-acetylcysteine).

Lately, I seem to get horrible pain in my jaw the day after I take certain supplements like L-Arginine and Sea Salt. I'm reading that viruses like Herpes Simplex can mess with nerves in the face so I am going to take only Lysine for an extended period. If my problems are viral, they haven't gone away overnight so perhaps it takes several weeks of Lysine to push the virus all the way back into latency.

NAC is something I tried once before, I opened a capsule and put about 1/4 of the powder into some water. This stuff tastes and smells like eating pure sulphur from a volcano. I'll be testing it in higher doses after the Christmas period, it's too risky to take it today. NAC is apparently good for boosting Glutathione antioxidant levels, my Antioxidant Profile test (from Biolab in London) did indicate that I had very high levels of oxidative stress.

My health has improved a lot in the past year, I'm unsure whether it was any of the supplements I took or just my beneficial bacteria levels slowly recovering from the poisonous devil antibiotic that very nearly killed me. Probiotics can help but they're never consistent so I've taken a break from using them. I guess I might be dealing with a multitude of viruses, bad bacteria and fungi so there needs to be a multipronged approach to this problem.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 26, 2019, 10:40:53 AM
Was your health deteriorating in a slow creeping like motion before you start taking the antibiotic? Was there any trend present?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on December 26, 2019, 07:19:15 PM
Was your health deteriorating in a slow creeping like motion before you start taking the antibiotic? Was there any trend present?

Yes, a lot of gut problems and chronic fatigue. Immune system was so poor that I would catch every flu or cold in the office and the symptoms would be severe, my nose would drip continuously for 3 days and I'm not exaggerating.

After the antibiotic, some people who had the same severe reaction said that oxidative stress had overwhelmed my body and I'd need to take NAC or Glutathione. I bought some NAC powder from a cheap brand and when I took it, my whole body went numb and I felt uncoordinated like I was drunk. It scared me but the next day these side effects went away. I never took it again.

2 years later, I have an NAC supplement from the brand Now Foods, it contains Molybdenum and Selenium as cofactors. It does feel like my body could be overwhelmed with oxidative stress and I need to support the Glutathione process. There are people who were severely crippled by these antibiotics and some of them get Glutathione IVs which have mixed results. Some people find that the IV causes a severe worsening of their symptoms so I guess it is not that straight-forward to treat oxidative stress and I also think IVs are very risky in general.

To provide an update on the Ascorbic Acid (Synthetic Vitamin C), it seems to flare all of my symptoms and give me really bad acne. I've also tried natural vitamin C like Acerola Cherry powder and Amla Fruit powder, they too caused bad acne.

So, the next few days with be concentrating on NAC with Molybdenum and Selenium. I may also take some Allicin (Garlic derivative) with some Molybdenum. I'm basically looking at boosting Sulphur with NAC or Garlic and then detoxing it with Molybdenum so that maybe I can fuel my body's Glutathione production and neutralise any oxidative stress that is overwhelming my body.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on December 26, 2019, 09:43:40 PM
Immune system was so poor that I would catch every flu or cold in the office and the symptoms would be severe.

You sound like my aunt who shows a similar pattern.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 02, 2020, 01:18:53 PM
I've pinned down one mechanism of my symptoms to sulphur metabolism.

I've been reading into sulphur intolerance and a lot of health bloggers associate it with candida. I would imagine the strange body odour that I get sometimes is either sulphur or some other candida by-product like acetaldehyde.

I have 2 avenues that I am exploring at the moment:

I'm still not sure if candida is the cause of my problems or just an opportunistic pathogen that is thriving in my sick body. If I could cure my chronic fatigue and get my motivation back, I would put up with all of the other stuff. The only time I currently feel motivated is the split second during an orgasm.

I've been reading about natural Turpentine called Pure Gum Spirits Turpentine. It's classed as a poison but some people ingest small amounts to treat ailments such as candida and even cancers. I found a few links that interested me, one person claiming that his dad's prostate cancer broke apart and came out in pieces during urination. I've previously heard that prostate cancer is to do with a fungal overgrowth.

https://endalldisease.com/turopentine-kerosene-cancer-treatment/
https://steemit.com/health/@tselvis/how-i-cured-my-dads-prostate-and-bone-cancer
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 05, 2020, 03:16:09 PM
The Methylation cycle which processes sulphur amino acids seems very significant to my condition.

Firstly, I've been taking NAC with Molybdenum and Selenium, it looks like it might clear my skin of spots. I need to test it further.

Secondly, when I previously tested my vitamins, the only B vitamin that was abnormal was B6 which was elevated despite not supplementing it. 40.4 ug/l (8.7 - 27.2). I have now started taking 100mg a day of standard B6, I seem to get a few hours of discomfort from it and then I'm okay again. I've been reading about other people with elevated B6, some suggest taking the active form of B6 called P5P and others claim they reacted badly to P5P.

I haven't yet been able to fix my chronic fatigue. I've read that L-Lysine requires B6 as a cofactor so I've been taking these together but haven't seen any improvement yet so perhaps I need Arginine or B12 or Folate.

I'm going to try P5P next.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on January 13, 2020, 07:42:24 PM
Immune system was so poor that I would catch every flu or cold in the office and the symptoms would be severe.

https://sci-hub.se/https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/07853890.2016.1161231

Table 1 under immunologic: '' increased susceptibility to infection''

And your higher intensity of symptoms from flu is just additional mast cell activation triggered by the virus. Also for people with Lyme, experiencing heavier symptoms than they should, might be an additonal mast cell activation on top of Lyme symptoms.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 15, 2020, 06:34:09 PM
I'm looking very seriously at vitamin B6 being a large part of my health issues. I have high Prolactin and borderline high Homocysteine which can be indicators of B6 deficiency. Prolactin is known to disrupt sex hormones like Testosterone, it could also be related to high SHBG.

When I tested my B6 over a year ago, it was elevated at 40.4 ug/l (8.7 - 27.2). At the time of testing, I was not supplementing but did eat a lot of sweet potato.

Interestingly, B6 is used to convert Tryptophan into Niacin in the liver so that might explain why some people on this forum feel better taking Niacin.

I'm currently taking B6 mostly in the inactive Pyridoxine Hydrochloride form, I think it may actually work better for me than the active P5P form. I'm also taking L-Lysine which is a cofactor for B6 and I'm playing around with Zinc and Selenium which are cofactors and have some antiviral properties that complement the Lysine. B6 supplementation can cause toxicity and neuropathy at high doses so I will try to avoid that.

I was also looking at the Methylation cycle and sulphur amino acids as these use B6 to produce Glutathione. I tried some SAM-e and got horrible stomach or gut pain which I've read other people have experienced. The pain got progressively worse each time I took it which was very concerning, it felt like the SAM-e was damaging my digestive lining somehow, like acid burning through the lining. The brand I took was Jarrow 200 and there's no way I'm taking those again. I do have some Doctor's Best SAM-e that I have yet to try.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 20, 2020, 01:49:57 PM
Quick update on the SAM-e. I've been trying to find what might be causing the serious stomach pain that the Jarrow SAMe 200 caused me, some people are suggesting it could be the mannitol ingredient. There's a lot of reviews in this link, some people describe stomach pain and headaches:

http://www.depressionblog.com/archives/000050.shtml

When I got the stomach pain, I took the tablet on an empty stomach as the directions say to do. The stomach pain started within 2 hours.

I've just taken half of a Doctor's Best 400mg SAM-e WITH FOOD, this one doesn't contain mannitol and the added ingredients are very different to those in the Jarrow formula so fingers crossed I don't have the scary stomach pain again.

I'll update if anything good or bad becomes of the Doctor's Best tablets. It's a shame there are about 10-15 extra ingredients in each SAM-e tablet, I guess some of it is for the enteric coating.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on January 20, 2020, 03:33:20 PM
Probably some cells in the stomach/intestinal lining that are hyperresponsive. There was a time where I did get stomach reactions/pain from everything under the sun even from water. In a few years time you wil probably tolerate the supplement while there will be something else that gives you reactions and the circle goes on.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 20, 2020, 05:01:53 PM
Probably some cells in the stomach/intestinal lining that are hyperresponsive. There was a time where I did get stomach reactions/pain from everything under the sun even from water. In a few years time you wil probably tolerate the supplement while there will be something else that gives you reactions and the circle goes on.

I've taken the Doctor's Best SAM-e once and haven't had a bad reaction so hopefully it's just the Jarrow version that triggers pain. From reading the reviews in the link I posted earlier, it seems more than a hyper-response, it actually felt like acid eating through my gut.

Muon, have you ever checked your homocysteine levels? I remember you talking about pectus excavatum in your family, I have pectus excavatum and carinatum in my family. I was looking at the wiki for homocystinuria and it mentions that pectus conditions are sometime associated with high homocysteine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homocystinuria

It's interesting also that homocysteine messes with eyes, bones and the heart; it also seems to affect feet. I have mild Pectus Carinatum and severely flat feet. My bone markers are abnormal too.

All of my investigation is currently focused on the methylation cycle and Homocysteine is a part of that. I did check my Homocysteine blood level twice a couple years ago and it was fluctuating around the upper reference.

I've got SAM-e, TMG, MSM, B6 & Molybdenum so far. I had a bad reaction to B12 and folate previously so I'm guessing they don't need supplementing.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on January 20, 2020, 05:50:45 PM
2008: Homocysteine <2.8 micromol/L (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nc2dt6pcwd5xpmu/AACyyDE6uhY1DHn1fAuxw86Ja?dl=0&preview=Muon+5-11+Alpha-2-Globulin.pdf) RR: <12.0 umol/L

Vote on this poll plz: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3144.0

I think there might be gene mutations in epigenetic regulators involved. Different mutations means different response to treatment. I'm talking about personalized medicine. Mutations in genes regulating DNA methylation play a role in mast cell disease. Compare Table 1 to Table 2:

The genetic basis of mast cell activation disease - looking through a glass darkly (https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040842814001498)

It's funny that you mention B12 and Folate. My B12 is elevated and my folate was elevated as well in the past. These two are being produced by gut bacteria.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 20, 2020, 07:23:02 PM
2008: Homocysteine <2.8 micromol/L (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nc2dt6pcwd5xpmu/AACyyDE6uhY1DHn1fAuxw86Ja?dl=0&preview=Muon+5-11+Alpha-2-Globulin.pdf) RR: <12.0 umol/L

Vote on this poll plz: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3144.0

I think there might be gene mutations in epigenetic regulators involved. Different mutations means different response to treatment. I'm talking about personalized medicine. Mutations in genes regulating DNA methylation play a role in mast cell disease. Compare Table 1 to Table 2:

The genetic basis of mast cell activation disease - looking through a glass darkly (https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040842814001498)

It's funny that you mention B12 and Folate. My B12 is elevated and my folate was elevated as well in the past. These two are being produced by gut bacteria.

I wonder if the raised B12 and folate is due to some cofactor deficiency in the methylation cycle, I thought you previously said B6 was also elevated which is another methylation vitamin.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on January 21, 2020, 12:26:23 PM
I thought you previously said B6 was also elevated which is another methylation vitamin.
Yes I forgot about that one. I will try to upload these measurements in the upcoming weeks.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Vandemolen on February 01, 2020, 07:42:07 AM
Same here again. It also expells something from the skin. My optometrist diagnosed me with Blepharitis and told me these channels under the eyelids were full of lipids and that I had to squeeze them out. So when POIS hits me these channels under my eyelids are accumulated with lipids (eyes get dry as well), heat will soften these lipids up so it can be pushed out more easily. These meibomian glands are being inflamed. My skin in general gets fatty and something is being expelled from the armpit yes, perhaps these might be lipids as well. POIS might attack gland specific tissue here.
Do you still have Blepharitis? Did the optometrist gave you a treatment or a medicine? Sometimes the eyelid tubes are too tight. Do you also get acne in the nose area? After getting moist eyes I have to sneeze whole day long. A few years I was using a lot of antibiotics so I did not had this eye problem anymore. But I am off antibiotics since a year. Now the problem is back.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on February 01, 2020, 06:37:37 PM
Do you still have Blepharitis? Did the optometrist gave you a treatment or a medicine? Sometimes the eyelid tubes are too tight. Do you also get acne in the nose area? After getting moist eyes I have to sneeze whole day long. A few years I was using a lot of antibiotics so I did not had this eye problem anymore. But I am off antibiotics since a year. Now the problem is back.
Yes still have Blepharitis but it doesn't bother me. Yes she gave me eyepads which can be heated so the wax-like lipids melt and the channels can be cleaned out. But they fill up again after things like pois and stress. I got other more serious problems like spinal problems in lower back, pressure in spine when standing leading to weakness in legs.

I already complained about it to my GP but doesn't do anyhting about it...clown society. I think your problem is mast cell activty related. Symptoms come and go, are episodic or take years to fade to the background, at least that's what is happening in my case and I get the impression it might be true for you as well.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 10, 2020, 07:01:23 PM
I've pretty much hit a brick wall with my experiments. The Lysine, Arginine and Lactobacillus probiotic supplementation no longer do anything significant although I think they may have crowded out some pathogens back when I was really sick.

The only product that I have used over and over with success is called Allicin Max, it seems to calm down my symptoms if I take 2 capsules. I tried taking 15 capsules at once but didn't get any more benefit. I will try taking 2 capsules several times a day to see if I can build some benefits gradually.

I still haven't found anything that improves mood and chronic fatigue reliably. I was ingesting 1 drop of "Thursday Plantation pure tea tree oil" and 1 drop of "Diamond G pure gum spirits turpentine" and did experience a good mood the next day but it doesn't seem to work anymore. I don't recommend consuming tea tree oil or turpentine, it seemed to stress my body after a couple days and they are considered toxic. Still, the initial mood benefits do seem to point towards some pathogen or microbiome imbalance as the potential mechanism. These mood and fatigue symptoms are the killer for me, they're stopping me from really living my life so it's something I'm very keen to fix.

I talked about the supplement SAMe previously, the Jarrow formula caused scary stomach pain (people say it is the mannitol ingredient), I found that I tolerated the Doctor's Best formula well but didn't get any mood benefit from it.

That's all for now guys, I'll keep up with the Allicin Max and report back if I find anything else significant.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 10, 2020, 03:27:24 PM
I'm going to discontinue this thread as I don't really feel like I have much of a POIS reaction anymore. I do have a lot of other issues like chronic fatigue syndrome that I'll be pursuing and people are welcome to PM me if they want.

If POIS is an overgrowth of pathogens in the gut then I do know that several supplements have caused a stinging sensation in my gut and perhaps they wiped out these pathogens temporarily. The supplements are:

1. Sovereign Labs Colostrum LD (Vanilla Flavour)
2. Probiotic - L. Plantarum 299v 10 billion CFU capsule - Either Jarrow (USA) or Sanprobi (Europe) brands
3. I ingested just 1 drop of Thursday Plantation Tea Tree Oil in a capsule filled with sugar (BE WARNED THAT TEA TREE OIL IS CONSIDERED TOXIC WHEN INGESTED).

With all 3 of these supplements, I experienced a stinging sensation in specific areas of my gut for 1 or 2 days and then no further reaction. If I stopped using the supplements and retook them 2 months later, the stinging would again be present which suggests the pathogens return over time. Whether the reaction is related to POIS, I can't say.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on March 10, 2020, 03:37:56 PM
I do have a lot of other issues like chronic fatigue syndrome that I'll be pursuing and people are welcome to PM me if they want.

Chronic fatigue syndrome is associated with mast cell activation disease. Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7003574/table/T2/)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 11, 2020, 10:46:35 AM
I do have a lot of other issues like chronic fatigue syndrome that I'll be pursuing and people are welcome to PM me if they want.

Chronic fatigue syndrome is associated with mast cell activation disease. Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7003574/table/T2/)

Yes, but fatigue is the body's response to many issues including chronic viral infections, mitochondrial disorders, electrolyte imbalances, vitamin deficiencies etc.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: marrtintintin on March 28, 2020, 06:56:05 PM
After I watched this video—where the guy claims to have solved his pois (see link below)—I realised that I too had been taking lots of antibiotics prior my pois.
Does anyone have a suggestion for a method to achieve the same results as the guy? His method looks quite deadly. I also started a topic around the video, in case you want to have a look. It is called: “people who (claim) to have solved POIS”

Video: https://youtu.be/ISnnag8UOGw
About the video: This person claims to have solved pois by “resetting his gut”.
His method is the following: eating boiled veggies for a week and after this, introducing a hosepipe into his anus and pour water into his stomach for 30-60 min (Idk the technical terms); in this way, he claims having eliminated All bacteria in his gut. And so, he takes a probiotic to reintroduce bacteria into his stomach. After two days, he’s a new man.
This is something that I consider trying. However, I am sure that people will have something to say about this—because to my eyes the technique couldn’t be any riskier.
Anyone consider trying it? Any alternatives with the same effect?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 29, 2020, 02:46:13 PM
There are clinics that offer colonic irrigation so you don't have to use your shower head like this person did. With these colonics, the body loses good and bad bacteria so it could potentially make your gut worse. I've never had the procedure done so can't say if it's beneficial.

Everyone has a unique gut ecosystem so we will all react differently to various probiotics and diets. I've written in this thread about some of the things I have tried and which probiotics I tolerate (BB536, 299v, Linden's Acidophilus).

If you think your gut is the problem then you really just have to start trying different things until you feel better. I still keep a written diary of my symptoms, supplements & food intake each day so I can gradually figure out what is good or bad.

With regards to the antibiotics, my thyroid went crazy after I took the Ciprofloxacin. I have test results that show I went hyperthyroid (overactive) for a month after the antibiotic and I believe my thyroid is still dysfunctional years later. I found a research article explaining the same issue with another class of antibiotics:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4884496/

I would say keep an open mind as to the cause of your issues, the endocrine system is located throughout the body and these antibiotics can do more than just imbalance the gut.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on April 26, 2020, 12:15:25 PM
Have you thought about measuring fecal markers for intestinal inflammation innitiated by the innate immune system? This is non-specific. You could probe whether there is any inflammation present regardless of microbe strain. Beta-Defensin 2, LL-37, S100A12, lactoferrin, calprotectin etc.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on May 02, 2020, 01:28:15 PM
Have you thought about measuring fecal markers for intestinal inflammation innitiated by the innate immune system? This is non-specific. You could probe whether there is any inflammation present regardless of microbe strain. Beta-Defensin 2, LL-37, S100A12, lactoferrin, calprotectin etc.

In a way I'm already doing that with my supplements, I'm currently taking bovine colostrum which contains lactoferrin. I won't be testing anything further, the body is just too complicated to supplement based on test results. Better to supplement blindly and see what works.

When I get a regimen that works consistently then I post it on this forum. I already have some days when my mood is great and I feel motivated to get housework done. My current supplements are focused around reconditioning the gut, handling pathogens and boosting antioxidants; things like Colostrum, Molybdenum, Acidophilus, SAM-E, GliSODin and Allicin.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: marrtintintin on July 10, 2020, 03:58:43 PM
Have you thought about measuring fecal markers for intestinal inflammation innitiated by the innate immune system? This is non-specific. You could probe whether there is any inflammation present regardless of microbe strain. Beta-Defensin 2, LL-37, S100A12, lactoferrin, calprotectin etc.

I’ve done this the past month, and the doctor couldn’t find any inflamation
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 10, 2020, 04:02:23 PM
Have you thought about measuring fecal markers for intestinal inflammation innitiated by the innate immune system? This is non-specific. You could probe whether there is any inflammation present regardless of microbe strain. Beta-Defensin 2, LL-37, S100A12, lactoferrin, calprotectin etc.

I’ve done this the past month, and the doctor couldn’t find any inflamation

Please be more specific what markers?
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: marrtintintin on July 10, 2020, 04:04:33 PM
QUESTION: antibiotics and gut biome/flora

I’ve been to the digestion specialist to get tests done for my digestion problems, which I believe they started after I was abusing antibiotics. I took feacal tests for inflamation and the doctor didn’t find inflamation. And then when I ask her about why am I having Problems and I insist that they may be related to antibiotics disrupting the my gut’s biome, the doctor insists that it’s been too long since I took the antibiotics (even if I insist that I took many and I might have never recovered!). Does any of you support the theory that antibiotics can disrupt your guts flora/biome for a longer period of time than 10 years?

Reply to Muon: I’ll ask the doctor about which markers did she use. Is there a difference between them? Maybe I can ask her for another test for other makers you tell me.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: berlin1984 on July 10, 2020, 04:23:29 PM
It helped me to eat yoghurt (real yoghurt or yoghuter drinks, not 'heat treated' one that i shockingly found in the shop once) every day and sometimes kimchi.

HOWEVER: Not during hay fever season (for me April+May+June). Then it's much better to stay away from histamine-stuff.

(I don't believe in the probiotic pills anymore so much after I heard so many bad things about them, e.g. their contents being dead already )
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on July 10, 2020, 04:27:45 PM
Is there a difference between them?

Yes
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: certainlypois2 on July 10, 2020, 06:29:04 PM
It helped me to eat yoghurt (real yoghurt or yoghuter drinks, not 'heat treated' one that i shockingly found in the shop once) every day and sometimes kimchi.

HOWEVER: Not during hay fever season (for me April+May+June). Then it's much better to stay away from histamine-stuff.

(I don't believe in the probiotic pills anymore so much after I heard so many bad things about them, e.g. their contents being dead already )

Prebiotics help alot too. They help the bacteria grow.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: BoneBroth on September 22, 2020, 07:27:30 AM
It helped me to eat yoghurt (real yoghurt or yoghuter drinks, not 'heat treated' one that i shockingly found in the shop once) every day and sometimes kimchi.

HOWEVER: Not during hay fever season (for me April+May+June). Then it's much better to stay away from histamine-stuff.

(I don't believe in the probiotic pills anymore so much after I heard so many bad things about them, e.g. their contents being dead already )

Prebiotics help alot too. They help the bacteria grow.

Yes, but if you have IBS or SIBO pro- and prebiotics might support the bad bacteria as well. You first have to get rid of the bad bacteria, or all bacteria, before you start taking the pre-probiotica. It might take 1-3 months to kill the bacteria with special herbs and/or antibiotic.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Huser on January 26, 2021, 06:49:18 PM
Hi Simon,

I am searching someone with POIS symptomes after taking Ciprofloxacin for 10 years! I can not belive I found you :)

I had problems with paine in testis since I was 16. At the begining paine started with no ejaculation. Aftet 1 year of paine i found out, that paine incrisses after ejaculation. After two years doctors gave me anthibiotic ciprofloxacin 250mg, 5 pills. I took them and the pain desapered even tho they never found bacteria in me.... STRANGE!

After that I didn't had no problems with ejaculation for 4 years. But then paine appeard again. But it was not strong. I had only slight paine in my left testis and only after I ejaculated. It lasted only for few days. I decided to visit doctors again.

They gave me Ciprofloxacin 750mg, 20 pills. When I started eating them the paine apeard in both of my testises and abdomen. It became so strong I ran to the doctors again and they gave me diffrent antibiotic called Tavanic...Its the same group of anthibiotic... When I took that one, the paine became so strong I have never felt it before!!! I had strong neurophatic paine for 1 year but the doctors didn't even want to hear my complaints.... I think they knew what they did, but were afraid I would sue them.

I read about peripheral neurophaty and I can not see the difference with the symptomes I had and the symptomes described in peripheral neurophaty...

Since then I have very strong paine after ejaculation in my testis and abdomen, I start to sweat, I feel strong heat threw my whole body and I can not read or do thing on the computer, because the paine incrisses so much when I trie to foccus on letters and meaning of the sentences!

 
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on January 29, 2021, 12:27:45 AM
Hi Huser,

I'm no longer going to reply on this thread as it's really long but yeah it's possibly some kind of pathogen that gets triggered by the fluoroquinolone class of antibiotics.

I'm still not recovered 3 years after the Ciprofloxacin, I've learnt to change my diet and that minimises my symptoms. I'm now very intolerant to strange things like sea salt and coffee so I have to be careful what I eat.

My Cipro issues are located in very specific areas of my body, like only one leg has some burning sensation, one ear has tinnitus, one hand has lost some of the fat padding. My working theory is maybe it's a systemic candida infection, I'm still looking for a cure.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Huser on January 29, 2021, 01:29:41 PM
If it helps I had painfull body for 5 years after eating Ciprofloxacin. So you are close to the finish :) And excersice helps! I've got job where I had to walk 10km per day and all symptomes desapered for 4 years. I was healty like never before. I cold have sex with no problems (every thirth day). I thought everything is behind me after my wife and I wanted to have a baby. I exgerated a little bit to much with the sex and everything came back. I have demaged my nerve system like Ciprofloxacin demaged it 11 years ago. Now I am on the same trip as you are, but I know I will get back on the track someday. I just jave to wait and excersice a lot.

Bacterias have nothing to do with your pain, belive me! I also thought so, but that is not true. Ciprofloxacin damages your nerves. You can read that on the paper you get with medications. It says PERIPHERAL NEUROPHATY. Nerves need blud to heal! And they get lot of blud with excercise! Try and you will see. And stop ejaculating this year  :)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on January 29, 2021, 03:08:56 PM
I dodged a bullet a few years ago, my Gp prescribed me cipro for suspected prostate infection but luckily I researched it before I tried and saw the horror stories about it, so I never took it. Otherwise I think I would be in a much worse position with my health. It also made me doubt any future medication treatments the drs suggested.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 24, 2021, 04:12:46 PM
Have any of you guys used Alpha Lipoic Acid?

I took some Natrol 600mg (standard version, not the time release). About 4 days after the first dosage, I had crippling sinus headaches, fatigue and low mood. Luckily, I have learnt that 3 large glasses of orange juice greatly decreases the reaction.

Whatever Alpha Lipoic Acid does, I've never had a supplement stimulate my Chronic Fatigue symptoms like that.

so...

My latest working theory: Severe mitochondrial dysfunction (worsened by Ciprofloxacin), body producing extremely highly levels of mitochondrial antioxidants to cope with high oxidative stress. Orange Juice (containing vitamin C antioxidant) helps decrease oxidative stress.

Reasoning: Alpha Lipoic Acid is related to mitochondria. I also found I have extremely high levels of another mitochondrial antioxidant called Superoxide Dismutase. After taking the Ciprofloxacin, my body is unable to handle calcium supplements. Mitochondria are involved in calcium signalling.

I've heard from various sources that mitochondrial dysfunction can be treated by somehow rebuilding the fatty membrane around the mitochondria. I already tried some Bodybio Phosphatidylcholine which possibly made me worse. I'm looking at other options including some simple Soy Lecithin.

I'm not going to be spamming this thread with updates, just thought this was significant enough to share. I was really, really hoping not to have mitochondrial issues but the evidence is pointing in that direction.


If it helps I had painfull body for 5 years after eating Ciprofloxacin. So you are close to the finish :) And excersice helps! I've got job where I had to walk 10km per day and all symptomes desapered for 4 years. I was healty like never before. I cold have sex with no problems (every thirth day). I thought everything is behind me after my wife and I wanted to have a baby. I exgerated a little bit to much with the sex and everything came back. I have demaged my nerve system like Ciprofloxacin demaged it 11 years ago. Now I am on the same trip as you are, but I know I will get back on the track someday. I just jave to wait and excersice a lot.

Bacterias have nothing to do with your pain, belive me! I also thought so, but that is not true. Ciprofloxacin damages your nerves. You can read that on the paper you get with medications. It says PERIPHERAL NEUROPHATY. Nerves need blud to heal! And they get lot of blud with excercise! Try and you will see. And stop ejaculating this year  :)

@Huser A year ago, I did try pushing my body with cycling and unfortunately I got severe kidney pain on several occasions which could be a sign of Rhabdomyolysis. I don't really have many nerve issues but I understand the myelin sheath is much like the membranes surrounding mitochondria and oxidative stress can damage both. As I mentioned above, I will look for a source of fat that will rebuild possible damaged mitochondria and nerves, then hopefully I will be able to exercise without suffering further damage.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 24, 2021, 05:24:39 PM
Have any of you guys used Alpha Lipoic Acid?

I took some Natrol 600mg (standard version, not the time release). About 4 days after the first dosage, I had crippling sinus headaches, fatigue and low mood. Luckily, I have learnt that 3 large glasses of orange juice greatly decreases the reaction.

Whatever Alpha Lipoic Acid does, I've never had a supplement stimulate my Chronic Fatigue symptoms like that.

so...

My latest working theory: Severe mitochondrial dysfunction (worsened by Ciprofloxacin), body producing extremely highly levels of mitochondrial antioxidants to cope with high oxidative stress. Orange Juice (containing vitamin C antioxidant) helps decrease oxidative stress.

Reasoning: Alpha Lipoic Acid is related to mitochondria. I also found I have extremely high levels of another mitochondrial antioxidant called Superoxide Dismutase. After taking the Ciprofloxacin, my body is unable to handle calcium supplements. Mitochondria are involved in calcium signalling.

I've heard from various sources that mitochondrial dysfunction can be treated by somehow rebuilding the fatty membrane around the mitochondria. I already tried some Bodybio Phosphatidylcholine which possibly made me worse. I'm looking at other options including some simple Soy Lecithin.

I'm not going to be spamming this thread with updates, just thought this was significant enough to share. I was really, really hoping not to have mitochondrial issues but the evidence is pointing in that direction.


If it helps I had painfull body for 5 years after eating Ciprofloxacin. So you are close to the finish :) And excersice helps! I've got job where I had to walk 10km per day and all symptomes desapered for 4 years. I was healty like never before. I cold have sex with no problems (every thirth day). I thought everything is behind me after my wife and I wanted to have a baby. I exgerated a little bit to much with the sex and everything came back. I have demaged my nerve system like Ciprofloxacin demaged it 11 years ago. Now I am on the same trip as you are, but I know I will get back on the track someday. I just jave to wait and excersice a lot.

Bacterias have nothing to do with your pain, belive me! I also thought so, but that is not true. Ciprofloxacin damages your nerves. You can read that on the paper you get with medications. It says PERIPHERAL NEUROPHATY. Nerves need blud to heal! And they get lot of blud with excercise! Try and you will see. And stop ejaculating this year  :)

@Huser A year ago, I did try pushing my body with cycling and unfortunately I got severe kidney pain on several occasions which could be a sign of Rhabdomyolysis. I don't really have many nerve issues but I understand the myelin sheath is much like the membranes surrounding mitochondria and oxidative stress can damage both. As I mentioned above, I will look for a source of fat that will rebuild possible damaged mitochondria and nerves, then hopefully I will be able to exercise without suffering further damage.


Try sulforaphane it gets rid of oxidative stress very well for me, I have many problematic genes for super oxide so I also believe I have high levels as well. Sulforaphane turns on the NFR2 gene that combats oxidative stress. It's the only antioxidant that has strong evidence behind it in clinical studies for being beneficial to health. Make sure you have wasabi with it as it activates the sulforaphane.

When I wake up sometimes feeling brain dead with a very painful feeling in the sides of my head with brainfog and extreme autistic symptoms, sulforaphane is the only thing that gets rid of it, so it must be bad oxidative stess. And this kind of brain fog is very different to the  usual POIS neurological burning type of brainfog, the POIS one feels less severe in comparison.

Alpha Lipoic Acid didn't help me either.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 24, 2021, 07:20:43 PM

Try sulforaphane it gets rid of oxidative stress very well for me, I have many problematic genes for super oxide so I also believe I have high levels as well. Sulforaphane turns on the NFR2 gene that combats oxidative stress. It's the only antioxidant that has strong evidence behind it in clinical studies for being beneficial to health. Make sure you have wasabi with it as it activates the sulforaphane.

When I wake up sometimes feeling brain dead with a very painful feeling in the sides of my head with brainfog and extreme autistic symptoms, sulforaphane is the only thing that gets rid of it, so it must be bad oxidative stess. And this kind of brain fog is very different to the  usual POIS neurological burning type of brainfog, the POIS one feels less severe in comparison.

Alpha Lipoic Acid didn't help me either.

Thanks very much for the response, which product are you taking?

Coincidentally, I first read about sulforaphane only a couple of days ago because I was looking at investing in a company called Evgen Pharma who claim to have the patent for the only pure, synthetic form. It seems to have some anti-cancer properties.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 24, 2021, 08:09:02 PM

Thanks very much for the response, which product are you taking?


Well I tried two brands first I used https://ebay.us/ve9HK5 this is really cheap brand and it worked well. Then I read that most sulforaphane supplements contain little or no sulforaphane so I bought this expensive one called Prostaphane which has been used in clinical studies and has been confirmed to have sulforaphane inside. And I saw no difference with the expensive one infact I felt it was weaker than the cheap one. So I've ordered more of the cheap one 360 capsules for £20

A safe way to make sure sulforaphane is activated is to add wasabi. This is what I read in an article:

"I was re-reading old research and noted one researcher advocating putting Wasabi on your broccoli – the spicier the better apparently. Wasabi is Japanese horseradish and is widely available.  If it comes on a large bottle is likely fake wasabi - yes like they fake saffron, they fake wasabi.

Is it crazy to add wasabi to your broccoli capsules?

Look at what is in the expensive Avmacol supplement that they only sell in North America.

In the research they found that adding just 0.25% Daikon to frozen broccoli “brought it back to life” and sulforaphane was found in the person eating it.

If you are using gelatine capsules with broccoli powder you can open them and, using a pointed knife, add a small amount of wasabi, re-seal and then swallow.  There is no taste or smell of wasabi."
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on February 24, 2021, 09:38:57 PM
Thanks, really helpful.

I was looking at supplements and surprised that one capsule only seems to have 1000mcg (1 milligram) of the sulforaphane ingredient. I wonder if eating the vegetables would be better.

Unfortunately, I seem to react very badly to eating Broccoli and Cauliflower since the Cipro, maybe it is the sulforaphane. As a first step, I'm going to eat brussel sprouts over the next few days and see what happens, I've been avoiding green vegetables due to the uptick in symptoms I experienced previously.

Will keep the wasabi and the supplements in mind, definitely a new avenue for me to investigate.

With regards to the Alpha Lipoic Acid, I get a very severe headache/fatigue syndrome if I take 600-1200mg per day. I possibly get some very good days after stopping but the discomfort while dosing is unbearable so I am reluctant to retry high dosages. My kidneys also ache while taking supplements, they are perhaps damaged from the Cipro.

I've found some posts on another forum that may point towards the need to decrease the dosage and detox slowly over several years:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/my-journey-to-heal-from-cfs-diary.57813/page-4#post-994059
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/my-experiences-with-alpha-lipoic-acid-benefits-and-side-effects.5533/#post-118794

Would be interesting if my problems are from ineffective detoxification due to low Alpha Lipoic Acid production.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Iwillbeatthis on February 25, 2021, 03:48:00 AM
Thanks, really helpful.

I was looking at supplements and surprised that one capsule only seems to have 1000mcg (1 milligram) of the sulforaphane ingredient. I wonder if eating the vegetables would be better.

Unfortunately, I seem to react very badly to eating Broccoli and Cauliflower since the Cipro, maybe it is the sulforaphane. As a first step, I'm going to eat brussel sprouts over the next few days and see what happens, I've been avoiding green vegetables due to the uptick in symptoms I experienced previously.

Will keep the wasabi and the supplements in mind, definitely a new avenue for me to investigate.

With regards to the Alpha Lipoic Acid, I get a very severe headache/fatigue syndrome if I take 600-1200mg per day. I possibly get some very good days after stopping but the discomfort while dosing is unbearable so I am reluctant to retry high dosages. My kidneys also ache while taking supplements, they are perhaps damaged from the Cipro.

I've found some posts on another forum that may point towards the need to decrease the dosage and detox slowly over several years:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/my-journey-to-heal-from-cfs-diary.57813/page-4#post-994059
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/my-experiences-with-alpha-lipoic-acid-benefits-and-side-effects.5533/#post-118794

Would be interesting if my problems are from ineffective detoxification due to low Alpha Lipoic Acid production.

Yeah I also react very bad to broccoli if I eat for dinner they I wake up with oxidative stress brain dead feeling in the morning so I haven't eaten it for a year or two. The sulforaphane doesn't give me this reaction though I'm not sure why maybe there's something else in the broccoli I was reacting to.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: BoneBroth on February 25, 2021, 08:20:50 AM
Both me and my dad experience gas when eating broccoli.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Huser on February 27, 2021, 04:39:28 PM
Hi Simon,

cycling is very bad excercise. It makes my symptomes even worse as sex. When cycling you are squizing body and all the nerves. Its worse as sitting.

Walking is the best excercise. Hiking in nature. Body is active and brain is resting!
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: BoneBroth on February 28, 2021, 04:03:09 AM
Cycling might also expose your testicles to pressure which might reduce testosterone production.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on March 23, 2021, 04:56:51 PM
Been taking two different probiotics called L. Plantarum 299V (Jarrow IBS or Sanprobi IBS) and BioGaia Protectis drops. Also been taking some Allicin Max (called Allimax/Allimed in the US) which is a special garlic anti-microbial/anti-fungal.

Yesterday, I had pain in my left testicle, the motor nerve in my left arm and today I have pain in my brain and right knee. My mood today has been extremely good with low anxiety, this is very rare.

Every time an episode like this happens, my immediate feeling is that I've temporarily dislodged a very nasty pathogen from the tissues where it resides. The episode only lasts a few days and then I'll usually see some kind of rash appear on my skin.

I'm going to make it my life's work to figure out a regimen to fight this thing, the three supplements above are a good starting point. If anyone's done any research on the microbiome, you'll know that gut bacteria control the immune system. Pharma companies are now trialling gut bacteria to fight cancer and neurodegenerative disorders. I wonder if the lack of diversity in my microbiome is the cause of these lingering infections.

Drinking milk and orange juice daily may also play some part in overall health.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on April 21, 2021, 07:54:52 AM
I wonder if the lack of diversity in my microbiome is the cause of these lingering infections inflammation.

Smoldering Inflammation in Cardio-Immune-Metabolic Disorders (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2021.651946/full)

(https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/651946/fphys-12-651946-HTML/image_m/fphys-12-651946-g001.jpg)
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 22, 2021, 09:05:00 PM
I have a feeling that a lot of inflammation comes from a damaged mucosal lining of the gut.

Most of the immune system is in the lining of the gut where it needs to kill pathogens from our food. Without a strong mucosal lining, I imagine the immune system goes haywire.

I've had a flare of my issues recently and did not improve from taking probiotics, colostrum or Allicin. I'm currently focusing on rebuilding my gut mucosa, I think Lecithin could be the supplement needed so I've ordered some soy lecithin softgels which I tolerate well. For those allergic to soy, there is also sunflower lecithin.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: BoneBroth on April 23, 2021, 02:34:05 AM
Yes, all therapists I have visited has independantly concluded that my intestines are inflamed, has bacteria overgrowth and slow movements. I belive this is caused by the inflammation caused by POIS worsened by a comprimised liver function. When the liver is weak it does not produce enough bile which is essential for keeping bad bacterias and fungus away from the gut. Lecitin is one of the main ingredient in bile. I will now look into if there is a hepatitis involved, which I got indications of.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on April 23, 2021, 08:48:24 PM
Yes, all therapists I have visited has independantly concluded that my intestines are inflamed, has bacteria overgrowth and slow movements. I belive this is caused by the inflammation caused by POIS worsened by a comprimised liver function. When the liver is weak it does not produce enough bile which is essential for keeping bad bacterias and fungus away from the gut. Lecitin is one of the main ingredient in bile. I will now look into if there is a hepatitis involved, which I got indications of.

Thanks, very useful information.

I once took Milk Thistle powder for liver health so I will go back and retest it along with the lecithin.

I'm also going to be exploring some other leaky gut supplements like Marshmallow Root and Slippery Elm.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: BoneBroth on April 24, 2021, 03:54:06 AM
After I did a liver detox with milk tistle and two other herbs that I dont recall, my acne suddenly disapeared from my face. That made me think that the liver is involved. Probably many organs are involved but that helped the liver.
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Muon on May 04, 2021, 02:54:20 PM
I'm no longer going to reply on this thread as it's really long but yeah it's possibly some kind of pathogen that gets triggered by the fluoroquinolone class of antibiotics.

I'm still not recovered 3 years after the Ciprofloxacin, I've learnt to change my diet and that minimises my symptoms. I'm now very intolerant to strange things like sea salt and coffee so I have to be careful what I eat.

My Cipro issues are located in very specific areas of my body, like only one leg has some burning sensation, one ear has tinnitus, one hand has lost some of the fat padding. My working theory is maybe it's a systemic candida infection, I'm still looking for a cure.

Unlocking the Non-IgE-Mediated Pseudo-Allergic Reaction Puzzle with Mas-Related G-Protein Coupled Receptor Member X2 (MRGPRX2) (https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4409/10/5/1033/htm)

Fluoroquinolone Antibiotics
"Fluoroquinolone antibiotics, such as ciprofloxacin, moxifloxacin, and norfloxacin, are commonly used broad-spectrum antibiotics [143,145]. In a recent case report, the authors reported an MRGPRX2-linked hypersensitivity reaction from a topical fluoroquinolone ophthalmic preparation [110]. Evidence has been reported on fluoroquinolone-induced MC activation via MRGPRX2 [72,111]. Ciprofloxacin increased MC degranulation and MRGPRX2-dependent Ca2+ release in a concentration-dependent manner [72]. Moreover, ex vivo stimulation of wild-type and MRGPRB2 mutant mice has demonstrated an MRGPRB2-dependent MC activation [72]. Contrary to this finding, one researcher found no activity of ciprofloxacin in an MRGPRX2-expressing stable cell line Ca2+ release assay up to a 100 ?M concentration [87]. Possible reasons may be the differences in the ciprofloxacin concentration used, application type, or study design. In another study, several fluoroquinolone antibiotics were tested for MRGPRX2 activation potential via in vitro and in vivo mouse models [111]. Fluoroquinolone antibiotics have shown a concentration-dependent MC degranulation, Ca2+ release and increased vascular permeability through an MRGPRX2-dependent mechanism [111]."
Title: Re: Developed POIS after antibiotic use
Post by: Simon66 on July 06, 2021, 02:58:27 AM
I recently found that having frequent O (once daily) caused me to develop very severe flu symptoms. Several weeks later and the severe symptoms return every time I have an O. I know it's a flu virus because other members of my family got it but we all tested negative for Covid.

There's definitely an immune component to this illness. My working theory is still that this is a gut microbiome disorder at its core. There is a lot of scientific research showing the effects of gut bacteria on the immune system.

When I abstain from having an O, the flu symptoms resolve after a day or two. I guess I will abstain for a couple weeks and hope my body can fight off this virus, the symptoms are very severe.

Edit: I also just remembered that my sex drive has been non-existent since I got this flu virus. I probably should have listened to my body and abstained if there is no desire.