Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (P.O.I.S.)

POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => General Alternative Causes and Treatments of POIS => Topic started by: nanna1 on December 23, 2017, 04:24:26 PM

Title: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on December 23, 2017, 04:24:26 PM
Hi All,
  I noticed a while back that chewing gum could reduce my POIS symptoms by 50% or more. Originally, I thought this was from the chewing motion. But later I found out that essential oils (peppermint, spearmint, eucalyptus, thyme) are used in some gums to produce cooling, warming, tingling, spicy sensation in the mouth. Cough drops that contain menthol, camphor and thymol were also anti-inflammator in my case. The reason I bring this up is because essential oils are dirt cheap.

  Fast forward about a year, there is concern about the price of the supplements in the POIS Cascade Stack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497). So I have started a list of potential substitutes for omega-3 (the most expensive supplent in the stack). Below is a ranking of the anti-inflammatory potency of various supplements in units uM. The unit, uM, is short for for micro-moles per liter or uM/L. The supplements are ranked by their IC50 (50% inhibition concentration) value. Smaller values are better and mean that less is needed to inhibit the enzyme. The ranking goes from strongest (top) to weakest (bottom). The ranking assumes that arachidonic acid (AA) release is the main mediator of POIS. Therefore, the AA oxidizing enzymes and mast cell degranulation (MCD) are ranked in importance in the following way 5-LOX > COX-2 > MCD > COX-1 > 15-LOX (CYP450s are not considered). Some of the IC50 values are listed in ug/ml, but these will have to be converted to uM in order to confirm the ranking.
"In general, potent inhibitors are considered those with IC50 values less than 10 uM [159], although clinically significant interactions are expected when the IC50 values are less than 1 uM." -Preclinical Development Handbook: ADME and Biopharmaceutical Properties (https://www.amazon.com/Preclinical-Development-Handbook-Biopharmaceutical-Properties/dp/0470248475)

I wanted to make this list "open-source". So feel free to post IC50 values for any LOX/COX inhibitors that you know of and I can update the ranking. The more supplements (IC50<10 uM)we add to the list the better. The bioavailability of each supplement varies greatly, so I know the IC50 is not a perfect representation of how effective the supplement will be for POIS. Just to be clear, I think omega-3s are essential for human life, so nothing can truly replace omega-3s in the diet. However, some supplements can serve a similar anti-inflammatory role, which is the motive for this post.

To take essential oils orally they will have to be diluted in a carrier oil like olive oil. For example, mix 1 part essential oil (thyme, oregano, or eucalyptus) with 9 parts olive oil (10% essential oil: 90% olive oil). 200mg (~0.2ml) of essential oil (2g total oil mixture) is one serving (http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Herbal_-_HMPC_assessment_report/2014/05/WC500166508.pdf) which should be taken with food since oils are fat soluble. Before you take it though, make sure you are not allergic to the oils by doing a skin allergen test. Basically, test your allergen response by applying the oil to a small area on the skin/arm and let it sit for a few hours. Initially, all essential oils cause some sort of cooling, warming, tingling, burning sensation because they stimulate the cold/pain receptors. However, they should not cause any damage or swelling (allegic response). Most of the other supplements in the list will come with some sort of intructions from the manufacturer on how to take them.

Final note, the IC50 is usually determined by incubation studies which don't determine how the inhibition happens. There are a number of ways the inhibition can occur (competitive binding, non-competitive binding, genetic expression, receptor mediated, etc...). So some of the supplements which inhibit COX/LOX by different means may be synergistic when supplemented together. It would be nice to know if there are synergies.

Graphical demonstration of the meaning of IC50.
(https://i.imgur.com/xoZIQvv.gif)

Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Hopeoneday on December 24, 2017, 07:12:33 AM
Thanks Nana for this.
I yust wana warn that some people with chest muscule and odher muscule stifines, short breathing and nerve senzibility espesually severe in pois days "could maybe have bad reactions" from taking oils and suplements who are GABA antagonist (like origanao etc) etc...
For exemple in my case drinking a glas of green tee after 5 min i get relef 20 30 %.
In green tee(l teanine, grean tee can fast metabolism , increase gaba etc).

And by cheving maybe we only emprove our digestion whos most of as have bad esphsually in pois days  https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-7775/why-chewing-your-food-can-change-your-life.html
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Muon on December 24, 2017, 09:32:27 AM
I have noticed quite a few mast cell stabilizers on that list. I suspect AA metabolites play a role in POIS in particular PGD2 but not through its precursor AA but by direct release from mast cells. Hopefully I get some testing done on AA metabolites in the upcoming months. @Hopeoneday: Theanine is a mast cell stabilizer btw: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00726-011-0847-9
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: b_jim on December 26, 2017, 04:39:26 PM
Green tea maybe give me a small aid.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on December 27, 2017, 08:31:50 PM
Hi Muon,

   Thank you for sharing your ideas on mast cells. Below are some 50% inhibitory concentration (IC50) values of (steroid/flavonoid) mast cell degranulation (MCD) inhibitors. They are ranked from strongest to weakest.
   Note that clinically effective supplements have IC50 values less than 1 uM. Only progesterone has a IC50 value less than 1 uM. One way to test a mast cell theory of POIS is to try pregnenolone, curcumin and luteolin separately. Curcumin is a strong 5-LOX inhibitor with a LOX inhibition of IC50=0.7 uM, but a relatively weak mast cell inhibitor with a MCD inhibition of IC50=6.52 uM. Luteolin is a strong COX-2 inhibitor with a LOX inhibition of IC50<1 uM, and a modest mast cell inhibitor with a MCD inhibition of IC50=1.8 uM. If curcumin is effective at reducing your POIS symptoms then your POIS is caused by aracidonic acid (AA) release and 5-LOX interaction. If luteolin is effective at reducing your POIS symptoms then your POIS is caused by aracidonic acid (AA) release and COX-2 interaction. However, if only pregnenolone is effective, then mast cell activation may be involved in your form of POIS. Disclaimer: This is not an endorsement of pregnenolone, luteolin or curcumin.
(https://i.imgur.com/wdpyqrF.png)
Mast Cell Degranulation Inhibition Concentrations at 50%. Figure from "Studies of Structure Activity Relationship of Flavonoids for the Anti-allergic Actions (1998)" link below.

I was not able to find the MCD IC50 values for theanine. If anyone has IC50 values (LOX, COX, MCD) for theanine, please post them.

(1)PROGESTERONE INHIBITS MAST CELL SECRETION (2006) (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/039463200601900408)
(2-4)Studies of Structure Activity Relationship of Flavonoids for the Anti-allergic Actions (1998) (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02974647)
(5)Curcumin, a constituent of curry, suppresses IgE-mediated allergic response and mast cell activation at the level of Syk. (2008) (http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(07)03608-1/fulltext)
(6)Twenty-first century mast cell stabilizers (2013) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3764846/)
( 7 )Inhibitory effects of resveratrol on human mast cell degranulation, cytokine, chemokine and leukotriene release (2012) (https://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=26273)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Quantum on December 28, 2017, 08:18:02 AM
Hi Nanna,

From the table you present, apigenin is a fairly good mast cells stabilizer as well.  The best way to take apigenin is from chamomile flower tops, in tea or capsules.  In bonus you get chrysin, but it seems less potent, according to that same table.  I didn't included chamomile in my pre-pack because I have it in tea, and it is not possible to prepare it in advance and keep it at bedside, but in capsules, it is cheap and could be a good add-on to a pre-pack or a daily stack, or used in tea in post-pack, when some residual POIS symptoms sets in.

Taking a combination of different natural mast cells stabilizers is a way to compensate for the fact they are less potent, alone, than prescribed ones.   In association, you get a synergy from their different modes of action, on mast cells and on other pathways too, so you act at the same time on mast cells, COX, LOX, PAF, IL-6, TNF, and so on,  and other pathways like IDO downregulation ( curcumin) and TDO downregulation ( quercetin).  I could say that this is a "broad spectrum" anti-inflammatory approach, acting on many inflammatory pathways,  by analogy to the use of broad spectrum antibiotics against the many strains of bacteria.

Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 03, 2018, 06:13:29 PM
A fresh batch of COX-(1,2) IC50 values. These are all prescription meds. For inflammation-fever-etc..., inhibiting COX-2 is most important. Only IC50 values less than 3 uM really matter, but an IC50 value less than 1 uM is ideal. As a matter of principle, I wouldn't take pharmaceutical medications. But others may have different convictions.
(https://i.imgur.com/T0oUg8G.png)
Disclaimer: These medication can have drug interactions. So take all the usual precautions in consultation with your healthcare physician.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 03, 2018, 07:05:15 PM
I should point out that this thread was started for people who find omega-3 too expensive (cost) to take in their own stack. I chose a numbers based approach (IC50 value) to compare and rank alternative anti-inflammatory supplements with omega-3 (EPA). Other metrics (i.e. IC100, EC50, etc...) are welcome as well. So far certain essential oils appear to be the best substitutes, but they have a short half-life (~30min) and must be taken around the time of orgasm or inflammation. I hope that someone can find a less-expensive longer-half-life yet effective (IC50<1 uM) anti-inflammatory that can replace omega-3.   ;D
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 04, 2018, 12:28:03 AM
There is a new king of the anti-inflammatory hill. I updated the first post with the following information (MCD=mast cell degranulation):

    11. Curcumin (5-LOX, IC50=0.7 uM)(COX-2, weak inhibition)(MCD, IC50 = 6.1 uM)(COX-1, IC50=50uM)

   Ginkgetin comes from ginkgo biloba. However, there are many chemicals in ginkgo other than ginkgetin. At this point, I don't know much about ginkgo and am still researching it. More specifically, it's not clear how much ginkgetin is in ginkgo. If anyone has insight on supplementing ginkgo biloba, please share.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Quantum on January 04, 2018, 08:07:51 AM
Hi Nanni,


Ginkgolides are also good PAF ( platelet activating factor ) inhibitors, PAF being another product of the phospholipase A2 ( PLA2) enzyme, which could be responsible for some of the brain symptoms of POIS ( see my earlier post on this at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2505.msg21554#msg21554 ).

This inhibition effect on the platelets do make ginkgo a "blood thinning" supplement, so it is contraindicated for people on anticoagulant drugs.

I have used ginkgo in my post-pack supplementation for remaining POIS symptoms, and it is a good supplement for POIS.   I do not have memory or cognitive problem with POIS, but I suppose it could be useful for these as well, not only because of its anti-inflammatory properties, but also because it enhance the blood flow to the brain ( it has been used, among other indications, to help improve memory and cognitive capacities).

The reason why I didn't include ginkgo in my pre-pack is its positive effect on erection, related to its vasodilation properties.   As a POIS sufferer, I often avoid sexual activity or aim at controlling the frequency of release as much as possible, so facilitating erection is not always a desirable effect.

Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 04, 2018, 02:39:54 PM
Thanks Quantum for the feedback. Ginkgetin is the only thing I have found (other than steroids and asthma meds) that is a stronger inhibitor in every category than omega-3 EPA. I'll keep looking though.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Hopeoneday on January 07, 2018, 02:59:08 PM
After only one caps of ginko bilboa i got so severe atac of shortenes breath heart raicing... etc like severe panic atac.

I take this pill bilboa because of bad circulation of my extremitetes , espesualy a long apstinence time.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 09, 2018, 03:31:23 AM
Vitamin D3 (5-LOX, small potentiation)(COX-2, IC50 = 0.1 uM)(TNF-α, IL-6 and NF-kB, IC50< 0.1 uM)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Muon on January 09, 2018, 01:06:35 PM
I've been tested for IL-6, TNF-alpha and NF-kB multiple times all with normal outcomes. My brother did the same tests with normal results as well. I don't think these are playing a role here but then again not many POIS patients have been tested on those parameters.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 10, 2018, 12:10:11 AM
Hi Muon,

  Thanks for the feedback and info. I also tested negative in blood test for systemic inflammation. From what I have read, cytokines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine) (i.e. IL-6 and TNF-alpha) only show up in the blood during an inflammatory stimulus (i.e. exercise) [Ref (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0838.2011.01372.x/abstract)]. Once the stimulus has stopped, the cytokines return to normal levels. The only way to measure a rise in these proteins is to take blood samples within a few minutes of the stimulus [Ref (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0838.2011.01372.x/abstract)]. I assuming this stimulus response is applicable to POIS, and one would have to take the blood test shortly after orgasm to measure the rise in cytokines. Chronic diseases, like cancer, diabetes or infection, can have elevated cytokine production. But I'm not sure POIS would fit the category of being chronic since most symptoms are associated with a stimulus (i.e. orgasm). If you took the blood tests immediately following an orgasm that caused POIS, then I may be wrong in assuming that the cytokines are produced during stimulation and orgasm.

  For others who may need background for the above discussion, cytokines such as IL-6, TNF-alpha function as signaling molecules to start the inflammatory process (i.e. upregulate COX and LOX). The first few sentences in the link Cytokines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine) discuss this. Inflammation then continues (COX/LOX remain elevated) until another signal turns it off. Hormones, Resolvins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolvin) and other (anti-inflammatory) cytokines (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2785020/) are the "off" switches.

  Was there is another reason why you were thinking cytokines should continue to be elevated? If so, I'm sorry I didn't understanding what was being communicated in your comment.

Ref: Evidence for an exercise induced increase of TNF-α and IL-6 in marathon runners (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0838.2011.01372.x/abstract)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Muon on January 10, 2018, 12:07:44 PM
I actually did test them before and after an orgasm. I also was under the assumption years ago that these particular cytokines might play a role but I'm not so sure anymore. Click on the dropbox link inside this thread and read the file 'notes' first for timestamps:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.0

The reason why I post these comments is because I want to prevent you from staring blind on one set of parameters which may have nothing to do with POIS. I just backed it up with some tests (not 100% proof because you will need a larger group). Perhaps you may want to think of other (inflammatory) pathways than IL-6, TNF-alpha and NF-kB related. I'm just being positive critically here.

Edit: NF-kB has been tested twice (not present in dropbox link) but not immediately after an orgasm unlike IL-6 and TNF-alpha. So NF-kB might still be involved within a very short time frame after orgasm.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Guts on January 10, 2018, 12:59:40 PM
1. Ate gingko biloba leaves, twigs , fruits and seeds because there were alot of trees growing nearby. Also took extract at high dosages for long periods of time. It reduced itching but that doesn''t imply it has anything to do with LOX or COX. Other than reduction in itching it did jack shit for other symptoms.

2. Works but you need high dosages, pharmokinetics are garbage and hard to ingest in sufficient quantities. Products on the market are dosed too low and too expensive.

3. Fish oils... took 20 grams of extract for about 3 monhts staight, did jack shit altough it helped with depression and mood. Might as well eat fish all day every day.

4. Thyme , completely nonsense because the content of compounds variates alot. Also the effects are barely noticable even at really high dosages. Only thing it does is reducing anxiety. Does jack shit for allergy symptoms.
5. Jack shit
6. jack shit, altough high dosages work wonder for anxiety or depression too expensive overall.
7. never tried this
8. jack shit
9. Works really but you need extremely high dosages and the pharmacokinetics are shit, you only absorb small amounts and the half-life is shit. tried different dosages for many weeks , usually around 600mg for one month straight. $$$$$$

10. Works however curcumin itself trigger allergic reactions. Dosages taken are 20 to 30 gram of grounded daily prepared in emulsion of lecithins, fatty acids and black pepper. Works wonders for depression and anxiety but actually triggers allergic reactions

11. Not worthwhile like resveratrol. Need high dosages and is too expensive to warrant the effects. Stilbenes are more effective than other compounds when it comes to mast cells because it does reduce itch...but then again only thing is reducing the itch when you are getting destroyed by POIS.

12. Does jack shit. Works for anxiety, breathing problems and actually reduces the negative side effects caused by cannabis. Does help inflammation but does jack shit for the most extreme symptoms of POIS.

13. CBD does jack shit , just helps anxiety but actually causes depression and myraids of symptoms
14. Triggers allergic reactions, seems to worsen everything over time just like NSAIDS.

15. Vitamin C works but you need to inject it in a special way and special solutions. Need years of experience to apply a butterfly IV, IV bag + drip, also you need to process it in a certain  way to reduce its pH. All in all will cost you shitloads of money.

16. Caffeic acid works but it might as wel been rosemaric acid or any other compound. Reduces the itch acoompanied with allergic reaction and reduced the brain fog. Amounts of rosemary used where very high amounts.. high enough to make you cringe for the rest of the day.

17. Tried essential oils.... none of them worked except pinus pinaster oil ( oral ), lemongrass, nutmeg and calamus. Even then the improvement minor, nutmeg is by far the most effective mast cell stabilizer / inhibitor but is also a aphrodisiac and makes you high, also toxic to liver etc.

18. chamomille works against itch and does it well but does little for other symptoms.
19. does jack shit

20. Quercetin works but is too expensive. Amounts you need for a significant reduction in symptoms cause all kinds of side effects just like caffeine including insomnia, stimulation etc etc . not worth the money because again the pharmacokinetics are garbage. Amounts i needed were at least 1 gram of quercetin 3 or 4 times a day and the same amount of rutin.

21. works somewhat, expect to get fucked up by POIS anyway.
22. Ginger .. worst thing i can take
23. doesn't do anything

i've been using cannabis for years now and have been growing CBD rich strains for almost 8 years. Strains are CBD nordle, CBD med gom, Fast eddie, Amnesia auto CBD. Also THC rich strains like white widow, northern lights and many others. Right now i vape 4 grams to 6 grams each day and it does jack shit besides helping me sleep and for anxiety. Even cannabis itself triggers allergic reactions in me now and then. I've also been taking niacin for many years and it actually made everything worse long term, i believe i would have been better off without it.

Most natural compound are eliminated too fast from the body and barely get absorbed. POIS patients already have GI problems and malabsorption so anything besides the injection route will probably be useless. Even then the Half-Life is garbage. I'm not saying you shouldn't try new things but one that doesn't hold a job won't get any worthwhile effects from these expensive supplements. I personally don't even take these threads seriously anymore, i've been isolating compounds for many years and tried them and rarely had any success.

Also the TNF-A model and IL-6 model is severely outdated and rarely is implicated in rarer diseases. Like muon said i've also tested for TNF-A and IL-6 and the results were normal. Everything i read on pubmed did jack shit and everything i read on these forums did jack shit. Only thing that helped is alpha lipoic acid but that's because of my pre-diabetes and has little do with POIS itself. Studies revolve around TNF-a and IL-6 because it's implicated in diabetes and researchers want a big piece of that money industry that's called diabetes so they model their studies after it.

Question is am i better of then previous years with all that cannabis use, supplement and herb use and medicine use.... No i maybe even got worse because of some supplements triggering reactions.  It also made me jaded and made me reject this forum and became very biased towards these idiot researchers setting people in wrong directions.

Also alot of people actually mast cell activation from NSAIDs , LOX or PGE inhibitors this also has been my experience. People don't read the shit that muon for example wrote , people are hang up about taking garlic and niacin and all this other shit because it gives them a feeling they can control the symptoms in which the end is just another delusion.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Guts on January 10, 2018, 01:07:45 PM
o yeah and theanine i have been taking for years.

lately i've picked it up again for lower prices and took higher dosages like 2 grams and 5 grams. reduces anxiety and what have you but actually triggered mast cell activation. My whole face and back was itching all nights.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Muon on January 10, 2018, 01:45:25 PM
@ Guts: You don't know if those reactions from supplements are related to mast cell activation, it's a guess. Bottom line is that more patients need to be tested for obscure/non-standard parameters before we can jump to conclusions.

Other thing is POIS might be caused by different mechanisms and supplement A could work for person X but not for Y, be careful not to discard positive experiences people have with specific supplements (even if these don't work for you and me). Many supplements can trigger allergic-like symptoms in me as well.

Second thing, the problem with supplement related papers is that they have been mostly tested via in vitro experiments. You rarely see any in vivo studies.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Quantum on January 10, 2018, 02:41:10 PM
o yeah and theanine i have been taking for years.

lately i've picked it up again for lower prices and took higher dosages like 2 grams and 5 grams. reduces anxiety and what have you but actually triggered mast cell activation. My whole face and back was itching all nights.

Hi Guts,

In this post, and in your previous post where you list many dosage you took in the past, you mention higher dosage, if not excessive dosage, and then mention side effects.  It is quite normal to get adverse reactions from high or excessive dosage, as many adverse effects are dose-dependant.

My approach has been to use multiple supplements at low dose, and it has yield very good results, if you have the patience to develop your stack over 3 to 6 months.  All in all, it's better to take that slow but safe approach, than go on with years of POIS.

Through your other, longer post you express a huge amount of anger and frustration against POIS, but please, do not project those negative feelings toward this forum and toward its members - they are not the cause of your POIS.  Also, try using less reference to your friend jack ( I am sure you can convey your opinion without constant reference to fecal matter as a way to put emphasis).   We are all affected by the same syndrome that you have.   You could have shared your opinion about those various supplements,which is valuable information, but without the venting aspect, and it would have been more interesting to read. 

For now, nobody has anything clear and established to say about POIS, so be patient, and respect all opinions.  We want this forum to be a safe place for any member to express his thought about POIS, so if you have problem with a hypothesis express on the forum, you can for sure comment on it, but in a polite and respectful way.

Take good care of yourself, Guts, and I truly wish you to find some relief both with your POIS and with your emotional struggle caused by it.  POIS is really heavy on the negative side, and I can say that my 10 years ( and still going on) of psychotherapy have been really a life saver for me, and I do not hesitate to recommend to any POIS sufferer to find a really competent psychologist, who manifest compassion and is intelligent.   It does not heal POIS, but it can heal the trauma of having POIS, and after a few years, things get a little easier to bear.  On the long term, after 5 to 7 years, your life has significantly change for the better ( that is my experience, anyway, because I have found an excellent psychotherapist, who was not afraid of the "severe case" that I was , which was not only limited to me having POIS ).  I must admit that psychotherapy is not cheap, and that I am grateful for having had the money to do so, and I wish anybody could have access to this essential service  ( usually, through the medical system, we only have access to psychiatrists, but they are doctors and only have time to prescribe drugs, essentially - no time to engage in a real therapy, and seeing you for 45 mins to 1 hour every week, develop a deep bond and have time to really be with you and care - psychotherapist/psychologist are more appropriate for this).



Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Guts on January 10, 2018, 08:50:55 PM
@ Guts: You don't know if those reactions from supplements are related to mast cell activation, it's a guess. Bottom line is that more patients need to be tested for obscure/non-standard parameters before we can jump to conclusions.

Other thing is POIS might be caused by different mechanisms and supplement A could work for person X but not for Y, be careful not to discard positive experiences people have with specific supplements (even if these don't work for you and me). Many supplements can trigger allergic-like symptoms in me as well.

Second thing, the problem with supplement related papers is that they have been mostly tested via in vitro experiments. You rarely see any in vivo studies.
Agreed, i just feel we are wasting money by trying so many things. I feel like we would be more effective if we create some sort of funds and do tests in order to pinpoint the mechanisms behind POIS All vitamins and chemicals endogenous to the body usually work the first few times, things like vitamin D, ribosine, acetyl carnitine and so forth . I believe this is due to inflammation and malabsorption.

I agree quantum,  lets just keep it at that otherwise i make this thread so personal.

Anyone interested in  plants, take a look at hydrangea species they contain stilbenoids and all kinds of coumarins which are exclusive to hydrangea macrophylla and relatives. I don't have equipment to seperate the toxins with CO2 but so far i believe those plant to be a source of multiple mast cell stabilizing compounds
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 10, 2018, 11:28:07 PM
Thanks Muon for your feedback and suggestions. The data (test results) you provided are very useful for determining which inflammatory paths might be more or less important.  :D
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 11, 2018, 10:41:27 PM
Vitamin E:
Vitamin E (alpha-tocotrienol) has the strongest neuroprotective properties of any supplement I have ever seen. It's extremely anti-inflammatory for the brain. Natural vitamin E is a mixture of 8 molecules (alpha-tocopherol, gamma-tocopherol, beta-tocopherol, delta-tocopherol, alpha-tocotrienol, gamma-Tocotrienol, beta-tocopherol, delta-tocotrienol). Most vitamin E supplements sold in stores contain alpha-tocopherol, which is the cheapest and weakest form of the vitamin. The alpha-tocotrienol form can completely inhibit glutamate and homocysteine toxicity through 12-LOX and phospholipase A2 inhibition.
This is most important for the protecting the brain. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16166580)

Inhibitory potency:
alpha-tocotrienol (Vitamin E)(COX-2, IC40 = 1 uM)(12-LOX, IC100 = 0.05 uM) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1910692/)(phospholipase A2, IC50 = 0.25 uM) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20028458/)(iNOS, IC50 = 1.2 uM)
gamma-Tocotrienol (Vitamin E)(5-LOX, IC50 = 5 uM)(NF-kB, IC50 = 5 uM)
gamma-tocopherol (Vitamin E)(5-LOX, IC50 = 3.2 uM)
alpha-tocopherol (Vitamin E)(5-LOX, IC50 = 5 uM)

Bioavailability in humans (blood plasma concentration after 280 mg/day oral dose):
alpha-tocotrienol = 0.98 uM
gamma-tocotrienol = 0.54 uM
delta-tocotrienol = 0.09 uM
 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11063909)(alpha-tocotrienol) This translates into 78mg/day for phospholipase A2 inhibition and 14mg/day for 12-LOX inhibition.

Sources:
The alpha-tocopherol form vitamin E is not as strong of an anti-inflammatory/neuroprotective as alpha-tocotrienol. Below are some good sources tocotrienols.
--Life Extension Gamma E Mixed Tocopherols & Tocotrienols 60 Softgels (https://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-Tocopherols-Tocotrienols-Softgels/dp/B000VHV3BM/ref=sr_1_10_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1515727289&sr=8-10&keywords=tocotrienol&th=1)
Vitamin E is fat-soluble, so it may take a couple of weeks of consistent supplementation to see the full effect. In general, fat-soluble supplements are not good pre-packs. Water-solubles are are better for prepacks. Also, it may be worth considering taking vitamin E with food.

alpha-tocotrienol neuroprotection against glutamate, homocysteine and arachidonic acid at nano-molar concentrations! Wow!
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1910692/bin/nihms16831f1.jpg)

Tocotrienol Data Dump:
Biological properties of tocotrienols (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4247006/table/Tab2/)
A list of molecular targets modulated by tocotrienols in various cell types (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956867/table/T1/)

Ref:
Neuroprotective properties of the natural vitamin E alpha-tocotrienol. (http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/36/10/e144.long)
Nanomolar vitamin E alpha-tocotrienol inhibits glutamate-induced activation of phospholipase A2 and causes neuroprotection. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20028458/)
Inhibition of 5-lipoxygenase by vitamin E (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1016/0014-5793(85)80075-2/abstract;jsessionid=D12F7AAC0EEA5F22FB63BC211E9639ED.f04t01)
Studies of LDL oxidation following alpha-, gamma-, or delta-tocotrienyl acetate supplementation of hypercholesterolemic humans. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11063909)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: b_jim on January 12, 2018, 04:01:35 AM
I took vitamin E since many years, it didn't reduce my Pois.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 12, 2018, 06:24:13 PM
I took vitamin E since many years, it didn't reduce my Pois.
Thanks for sharing your experience. There are 8 forms of natural vitamin E that are listed in the post above. If you will, could you specify which form of E you supplemented and whether it was prepack or daily? I think that information would be really beneficial to the POIS community. alpha-tocopherol is the most common form of vitamin E sold in stores and online, and it's IC50 values show that it is not an anti-inflammatory.

  Only one of the forms, alpha-tocotrienol, is shown to be neuroprotective at low concentration. The IC50 values listed for alpha-tocotrienol indicates that (in the brain) it is a stronger anti-inflammatory than of all the supplements listed in the original post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2597.msg22561#msg22561).

If you can't recall the form you took, your feedback is still helpful. I may not have explained clearly the importance/distinction of the alpha-tocotrienol form in the above post on E. In any case, I will be delighted to hear from anyone about experiences with supplementing the different tocotrienol versions of vitamin E.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: b_jim on January 13, 2018, 02:19:28 AM
I checked : it's the common form : dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate.
I take it daily 5-10 mg.
As I said, I don't have any problem with inflammatory theory.
But I don't have biological proof that there is inflammatory reaction after ejaculation. My CRP is normal after ejaculation.
I never had improvment with common anti-inflammatory med (ibuprofen, paracetamol). Anti-inflammatory diet never improved my Pois except white sugar and fish.
The "fish-test" is something I recommand to Poisers.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/runestory/images/c/c2/Salmon_of_Knowledge.png/revision/latest?cb=20160512054438)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Quantum on January 13, 2018, 09:59:54 AM
I took vitamin E since many years, it didn't reduce my Pois.
Thanks for sharing your experience. There are 8 forms of natural vitamin E that are listed in the post above. If you will, could you specify which form of E you supplemented and whether it was prepack or daily? I think that information would be really beneficial to the POIS community. alpha-tocopherol is the most common form of vitamin E sold in stores and online, and it's IC50 values show that it is not an anti-inflammatory.

  Only one of the forms, alpha-tocotrienol, is shown to be neuroprotective at low concentration. The IC50 values listed for alpha-tocotrienol indicates that (in the brain) it is a stronger anti-inflammatory than of all the supplements listed in the original post (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2597.msg22561#msg22561).

If you can't recall the form you took, your feedback is still helpful. I may not have explained clearly the importance/distinction of the alpha-tocotrienol form in the above post on E. In any case, I will be delighted to hear from anyone about experiences with supplementing the different tocotrienol versions of vitamin E.


Very informative post, Nanna, thanks for your precision on the exact form of vitamine E that has a high potential of being beneficial in POIS. 

Neuroprotection abilities, for me, are very interesting in POIS, since neurotoxicity through kynurenine pathways activation ( through IDO/TDO upregulation), leading to neurotoxic products, is part of my hypothesis about POIS CNS/brain symptoms, ( cognitive and emotional symptoms).

I think that the natural supplement companies in general are not there yet with alpha-tocotrienol.  Most will list only tocopherols, and some will list tocotrienol as a whole, not detailing the concentration of the four different forms.  I have found one preparation listing all 8 forms of vitamin E, and there are 5.38 mg of alpha-tocotrienol in it ( see https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-e-tocotrienol-complex ).

I read in another post that you have started taking alpha-tocotrienol.  Did you find a specialized supplement with mainly alpha-tocotrienol, or a complex of tocotrienols, or a Vit E complex containing alpha-tocotrienol?   Could be interesting to share the dosage of alpha-tocotrienol in the preparation you take ( and, maybe, a link to this preparation).

One of the best dietary source of alpha-tocotrienol seems to be palm oil ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocotrienol#Sources )

I also stumble upon a tocotrienol education site:  http://tocotrienol.org/en/  .  However, this site appears to give information on tocotrienol in general, and not specifically on alpha-tocotrienol.


P.S.   After some more search, it seems that most, if not all, tocotrienol supplements uses the proprietary complexes of the EVNol serie, from a company named ExcelVite ( http://www.excelvite.com/products/evnol-palm-tocotrienol-complex/ ).  They mainly uses palm oil as a source, and they have 6 different versions of their EVNol complex.   The informational site that I have mentioned above, http://tocotrienol.org/en/ , have been created by ExcelVite ( but they have refrained to put any commercial link on this education site and really focus on the research results, which is good - their name only appear in the "contact" section.)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: certainlypois2 on January 13, 2018, 11:32:33 PM
Interesting, In the past I thought palm oil might be aiding my recovery. I eat beans cooked with palm oil, i noticed when i ate a lot of the beans during the week i have my best recovery especially from cognitive symptoms. Since living by myself my palmoil consumption is pretty much at zero  and the frequency of those great recoveries have reduced.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 15, 2018, 11:58:51 PM
Hi b_jim,
   Thanks for sharing the vitamin E form. I didn't know there were other forms of vitamin E until I recently started looking up the IC50 values for the allergy/inflammatory pathways. It seems that natural vitamin E found in nature is always a mixture of the 8 forms. The ratios vary depending on the source. dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate is a synthetic form of vitamin E that is not found in nature. Chemist make dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate in bulk to sell to supplement companies because it is cheaper to make dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate than it is to extract d-alpha-tocopherol from a plant source.

   We may be using different definitions for what constitutes an anti-inflammatory. I am defining "anti-inflammatory" as an inhibitor of an inflammatory pathway according to a quote from Preclinical Development Handbook: ADME and Biopharmaceutical Properties (https://www.amazon.com/Preclinical-Development-Handbook-Biopharmaceutical-Properties/dp/0470248475). 

"In general, potent inhibitors are considered those with IC50 values less than 10 uM [159], although clinically significant interactions are expected when the IC50 values are less than 1 uM." -Preclinical Development Handbook: ADME and Biopharmaceutical Properties (https://www.amazon.com/Preclinical-Development-Handbook-Biopharmaceutical-Properties/dp/0470248475)

   So when I talk about anti-inflammatory, I mean a substance that has an IC50 value less than 1 uM (micromol/L). According to the below chart, ibuprofen is not anti-inflammatory according to the above definition. But the substances listed under the COX-2 inhibitor section are anti-inflammatory (but not necessarily safe).
(https://i.imgur.com/T0oUg8G.png)
   For paracetamol, (COX-1, IC50=113.7 uM) (COX-2, IC50=25.8 uM). (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17884974) So paracetamol is not anti-inflammatory either according to the above definition.
   For vitamin D3 (5-LOX, small potentiation)(COX-2, IC50 = 0.1 uM)(TNF-α, IL-6 and NF-kB, IC50< 0.1 uM). Since the COX-2 IC50 for vitamin D3 is less than 1 uM, vitamin D3 is anti-inflammatory. To put this in perspective, D3 is an 800 times stronger inhibitor of COX-2 than ibuprofen and a 250 times stronger inhibitor than paracetamol.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 16, 2018, 01:26:04 AM
Hi Quantum & certainlypois2,

Sources:
Below is the source of tocotrienols I bought. Gamma-tocopherol and gamma-tocotrienol also have many general health benefits.
--Life Extension Gamma E Mixed Tocopherols & Tocotrienols 60 Softgels (https://www.amazon.com/Life-Extension-Tocopherols-Tocotrienols-Softgels/dp/B000VHV3BM/ref=sr_1_10_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1515727289&sr=8-10&keywords=tocotrienol&th=1)

Also, below are some natural sources of tocotrienols from "Tocotrienols, the Vitamin E of the 21st Century: Its Potential Against Cancer and Other Chronic Diseases (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956867/figure/F2/)":
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956867/bin/nihms230562f2b.jpg)

Tocotrienol Data Dump:
Biological properties of tocotrienols (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4247006/table/Tab2/)
A list of molecular targets modulated by tocotrienols in various cell types (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956867/table/T1/)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: certainlypois2 on January 18, 2018, 06:00:23 PM
nanna1 how many of those vitamin e pills do you use in a day.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on January 20, 2018, 12:18:36 AM
certainlypois2, I'm taking two per day. One at breakfast and one at dinner.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: certainlypois2 on January 20, 2018, 01:44:12 PM
certainlypois2, I'm taking two per day. One at breakfast and one at dinner.
what about AGPC is it a total of 1.2g a day or 2.4 g a day.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: romies on January 28, 2018, 03:14:27 PM
Very good work on Vitamin E and Vitamin D, nanna1.

My personal experience is that supplementing Vitamin E also greatly increase my libido, e.g. 2-3x the frequency in wet dreams. For just a one-time single 400IU capsule (NOT daily), the effect lingers on for 4-6 days. So Vitamin E is a catch-22 for me personally.

Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on March 10, 2018, 12:52:02 AM
Thanks Romies!
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on March 10, 2018, 12:53:21 AM
Gallic acid (COX-2 inhibitor, mast cell stabilizer):
  half-life: 1.19 hours, bioavailability max: 1.83 uM [1],
  COX-2 IC50=0.074 uM, COX-1 IC50=1.5 uM, MCD IC50=0.5uM, NF-kB IC50=76uM [2]
Gallic acid is naturally found (to varying degrees) in green tea, dark chocolate, apple cider vinegar [3], and Triphala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triphala).

Gallic acid sources:
1. gallicum acidum liquid (https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=f3900497-0a39-4474-954c-bdbd4bc9d8fc)
2. gallic acid monohydrate liquid (https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?setid=f3900497-0a39-4474-954c-bdbd4bc9d8fc)

Pharmacokinetics (at 50mg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GsXrGW2.png)
Table from: "Pharmacokinetics of Gallic Acid and Its Relative Bioavailability from Tea in Healthy Humans (S. Shahrzad, et. al., 2001) (https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/4/1207/4686988)"

Plasma time points
(https://i.imgur.com/vp86OkY.png)
Figure 2 from: "Pharmacokinetics of Gallic Acid and Its Relative Bioavailability from Tea in Healthy Humans (S. Shahrzad, et. al., 2001) (https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/4/1207/4686988)"

Anti-viral properties:
(https://i.imgur.com/Yiha2rG.gif)
Figure from: "Anti-HSV-1 and anti-HIV-1 activity of gallic acid and pentyl gallate (Kratz, et. al., 2008) (http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0074-02762008000500005&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en)"

(https://i.imgur.com/dYGMvmW.png)
Figure from: "Homology Modeling of DNA polymerases of Herpesviridae family and structure-based virtual screening for inhibitor identification. (Subhashini Pandey, et. al.2015) (http://www.scopemed.org/?mno=197607)"
Alliin and Gallic acid bind to human herpes family DNA polymerases stronger than the anti-viral Acyclovir.

1. Pharmacokinetics of gallic acid and its relative bioavailability from tea in healthy humans. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11285327)
2. Kinetics and docking studies of a COX-2 inhibitor isolated from Terminalia bellerica fruits. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20441561)
3. Gallic acid - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_acid#Natural_occurrence)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: CuriousCharacter on July 31, 2018, 10:35:49 AM
Note that there is some debate about whether the average essential oil is safe for ingestion. There are some essential oil manufacturers who specifically market their products as being safe for ingestion, but these tend to sell at a much higher price point.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: swell on July 31, 2018, 01:39:32 PM
I just got CLA today, nanna1 uses it.  CLA multiplies the Omega-3 benefits without some of the drawbacks of high doses of fish-oil, plus CLA is very low cost so just combining Omega-3 supplement with CLA brings the total cost substantially down.   I'm out of my POIS now, but will start using it daily since its beneficial.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on August 02, 2018, 10:48:56 AM
Note that there is some debate about whether the average essential oil is safe for ingestion. There are some essential oil manufacturers who specifically market their products as being safe for ingestion, but these tend to sell at a much higher price point.
Hi CuriousCharacter,
  Thanks for sharing. You are correct that most essential oils are not safe to ingest. The only essential oil that I know of that is safe to ingest is d-limonene (from lemon or orange oil). And orange oil can only be ingested in one or two drop doses. I think other essential oils are not safe to ingest unless there is some special carrier oil preparation.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on August 02, 2018, 10:55:38 AM
  It may be worth looking into finding a xanthine oxidase (XO) inhibitor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthine_oxidase_inhibitor). I wrote about XO here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769). There is a cascade of inflammatory events:
1. Some herpes viruses (and influenza virus (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2155924), and HIV (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20084375)) upregulate XO to increase superoxide (O2-).
2. Superoxide is then used by the other oxidative enzymes (COX-2, IDO, etc...) to oxidize substrates (arachidonic acid, tryptophan, etc...)
3. This produces (PGE2, kynurenine) and peroxide (H2O2)
4. H2O2 activates NF-kB
5. chronically elevated NF-kB causes problems
In other words, blocking the activity of XO and/or the production of superoxide will dramatically reduce the activity of all the other oxidative enzymes and NF-kB.
I just wanted to dump this info here. Chrysin, Apigenin, Luteolin were the most potent "natural" xanthine oxidase inhibitors. Allopurinol was the most potent over-all inhibitor. Lower IC50 values are better, but bio-availability is always the hidden variable. (click image to see full size)
(https://i.imgur.com/2J5KRib.png)
Figure from: Structure−Activity Relationship and Classification of Flavonoids as Inhibitors of Xanthine Oxidase and Superoxide Scavengers (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9461655)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Quantum on August 03, 2018, 08:21:36 AM
I just wanted to dump this info here. Chrysin, Apigenin, Luteolin were the most potent "natural" xanthine oxidase inhibitors. Allopurinol was the most potent over-all inhibitor. Lower IC50 values are better, but bio-availability is always the hidden variable. (click image to see full size)
(https://i.imgur.com/2J5KRib.png)
Figure from: Structure?Activity Relationship and Classification of Flavonoids as Inhibitors of Xanthine Oxidase and Superoxide Scavengers (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9461655)


An excellent source of both chrysin and apigenin, and even of luteolin, is chamomile flower tops.   

These 3 substances are also mast cells stabilizers.   Chamomile supplements or tea are safe to use.


As a side note, allopurinol is on prescription only, because of its potential for some very nasty side effects.


From the above chart from Nanna, we can also see that green tea ( epigallocatechin, and secondary, epicatechin), is good at reducing superoxyde level.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: swell on August 04, 2018, 08:21:57 PM
nanna1, you say oral bioavailability is the hidden variable.  After doing some google search that seems to be the case.   I think your knowledge in that area is critically required.   My lame searches reveal Apigenin is most bioavailable among the top 3 you list.  I did once make liposomes of Luteolin in Lecithin for oral intake, and used topical Luteolin in low-concentration DMSO solution.  I did notice the topical Luteolin was very helpful to certain skin uticaria like symptoms I get with POIS.   I now think the topical Luteolin helped tame down the whatever virus I have that flares after ejaculation.  The oral Luteolin I dont think did much.  Would you share views on Apigenin vs Chrysin vs Luteolin, how to improve bioavailability?  Like with carbs or fats or empty stomach, capsule or dissolved in solution, liposomes or not.

Quantum, you say chamomile tea.  Food sources are definitely safer and may even more bioavailable though my brief searches revealed  very small amounts of flavones/flavinoids from it.  Granted while sometime small could be more, but generally would you not have to drink like 200 cups of chamomile tea to get some good effect to tame down something like a raging virus?

  It may be worth looking into finding a xanthine oxidase (XO) inhibitor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthine_oxidase_inhibitor). I wrote about XO here (http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769). There is a cascade of inflammatory events:
1. Some herpes viruses (and influenza virus (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2155924), and HIV (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20084375)) upregulate XO to increase superoxide (O2-).
2. Superoxide is then used by the other oxidative enzymes (COX-2, IDO, etc...) to oxidize substrates (arachidonic acid, tryptophan, etc...)
3. This produces (PGE2, kynurenine) and peroxide (H2O2)
4. H2O2 activates NF-kB
5. chronically elevated NF-kB causes problems
In other words, blocking the activity of XO and/or the production of superoxide will dramatically reduce the activity of all the other oxidative enzymes and NF-kB.
I just wanted to dump this info here. Chrysin, Apigenin, Luteolin were the most potent "natural" xanthine oxidase inhibitors. Allopurinol was the most potent over-all inhibitor. Lower IC50 values are better, but bio-availability is always the hidden variable. (click image to see full size)
(https://i.imgur.com/2J5KRib.png)
Figure from: Structure−Activity Relationship and Classification of Flavonoids as Inhibitors of Xanthine Oxidase and Superoxide Scavengers (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9461655)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on August 18, 2018, 10:29:57 PM
Hi swell,

  I was thinking about your question about stopping a virus. I've been drinking aloe vera gel drinks as a way to directly suppress viral replication.
  Aloe emodin is one of the active ingredients in aloe vera leaves and is highly concentrated in aloe vera gel. Aloe vera gel is know for its therapeutic properties of the skin. But aloe emodin has been shown to inhibit herpes virus (HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV, EBV, CMV) replication and to be virucidal (RefFRMA (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771053/), RefRSRB (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC245413/), RefKZZR (https://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/view/57782), RefJKHT (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16338070), RefKSWW (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/%28SICI%291099-1573%28199606%2910%3A4%3C348%3A%3AAID-PTR836%3E3.0.CO%3B2-2)). Aloe emodin is also inhibits the activity of NF-kB and down-regulates the expression of the MMP-2, JNK and MAPK genes used in collagen breakdown, stress sensing and viral replication (RefMPSK (https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.31.1_supplement.166.7), RefLLCS (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20607722)). Aloe emodin reduces blood vessel inflammation by downregulating MMP-2, MMP-9 and VEGF through inhibition of NF-kB (RefPSSG (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22227305), RefMKRN (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25364206)).
(https://i.imgur.com/ZNZmKkT.png)
ID50 and ID90 values of aloe emodin for inhibiting viruses (Inactivation of enveloped viruses by anthraquinones extracted from plants (https://aac.asm.org/content/35/12/2463)). For the HSV-1 ID50 value, the unit conversion is 1.6 ug/ml = 5.7uM (1 ug/ml = 1/0.279 uM). Herpes simplex virus type 1 (HSV-1) and type 2 (HSV-2), varicella-zoster virus (VZV), pseudorabies virus (PSV), influenza virus (INF), adenovirus (AD), and rhinovirus (RH).

  It also inhibits the expression of COX-2 and iNOS resulting in a reduction of inflammatory nitric oxide and PGE2 with equal potency as quercetin (RefMPMS1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19352036)). The bioavailability of aloe emodin is ~10% (RefMPMS2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2788160/)). Aloe emodin is neuroprotective against NMDA-excitotoxicity by upregulating superoxide dimutase (SOD) (RefHLFT2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17444804), RefHLFT1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17661329)).

  From my understanding, aloe vera juice does not have as much emodin as the gel does. Aloe vera gel can be sourced here1 (https://www.amazon.com/Amara-Organics-Aloe-Organic-Pressed/dp/B00WRN3TBU/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1534620648&sr=8-12-spons&keywords=aloe+vera+gel+juice&psc=1) or here2 (https://www.amazon.com/Aloe-Vera-Gel-Organic-XANTHAN/dp/B00XTTFI6K/ref=sr_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1534620880&sr=8-5&keywords=aloe%2Bvera%2Bgel%2Bjuice&dpID=51zAqqH1I1L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch&th=1). It should be diluted as 1 Tbs of aloe vera gel per 8oz of water (or other drink). This can be consumed daily 3 times a day. I have already started testing aloe vera gel mixed in a juice with some good results. It clearly crosses the BBB and has positive cognitive effects. I'm thinking that aloe vera gel may be a very effective at stopping POIS. I'll post about my trial later. Below is a commercial aloe vera drink that I have also been drinking. The sugar content is relatively small.
(https://i.imgur.com/iqwG8t9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/qHxIlSx.png)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: swell on August 19, 2018, 02:35:10 PM
Thank you nanna1 this is very very interesting.  I am going to start on this too.  I didn't correlate to POIS, but Senna tea I used to drink for constipation but stopped so I dont get used to it, somehow I felt very good being on it, I attributed the feel-good due to laxative effects of Senna since it expels all gases from your stomach.  And I read Aloe Emodin can be extracted from Aloe or Senna.

Question for you and all.  I get too much gas in my stomach since childhood.  I have always been naturally skinny but I'm always bloated.  I do take digestive enzymes but still I get gas.  Do other POIS'ers also have this gas problem?

Back to Aloe Emodin, nanna1.  Obviously aloe "gel" is stronger than "juice" since juice is nothing but the gel diluted.  And we know that making aloe gel is very easy at home, but cant we extract the aloe emodin out of aloe gel ourselves? 



Hi swell,

  I was thinking about your question about stopping a virus. I've been drinking aloe vera gel drinks as a way to directly suppress viral replication.
  Aloe emodin is one of the active ingredients in aloe vera leaves and is highly concentrated in aloe vera gel. Aloe vera gel is know for its therapeutic properties of the skin. But aloe emodin has been shown to inhibit herpes virus (HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV, EBV, CMV) replication and to be virucidal (RefFRMA (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771053/), RefRSRB (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC245413/), RefKZZR (https://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/view/57782), RefJKHT (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16338070), RefKSWW (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/%28SICI%291099-1573%28199606%2910%3A4%3C348%3A%3AAID-PTR836%3E3.0.CO%3B2-2)). Aloe emodin is also inhibits the activity of NF-kB and down-regulates the expression of the MMP-2, JNK and MAPK genes used in collagen breakdown, stress sensing and viral replication (RefMPSK (https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.31.1_supplement.166.7), RefLLCS (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20607722)). Aloe emodin reduces blood vessel inflammation by downregulating MMP-2, MMP-9 and VEGF through inhibition of NF-kB (RefPSSG (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22227305), RefMKRN (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25364206)).
(https://i.imgur.com/ZNZmKkT.png)
ID50 and ID90 values of aloe emodin for inhibiting viruses (Inactivation of enveloped viruses by anthraquinones extracted from plants (https://aac.asm.org/content/35/12/2463)). For the HSV-1 ID50 value, the unit conversion is 1.6 ug/ml = 5.7uM (1 ug/ml = 1/0.279 uM). Herpes simplex virus type 1 (HSV-1) and type 2 (HSV-2), varicella-zoster virus (VZV), pseudorabies virus (PSV), influenza virus (INF), adenovirus (AD), and rhinovirus (RH).

  It also inhibits the expression of COX-2 and iNOS resulting in a reduction of inflammatory nitric oxide and PGE2 with equal potency as quercetin (RefMPMS1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19352036)). The bioavailability of aloe emodin is ~10% (RefMPMS2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2788160/)). Aloe emodin is neuroprotective against NMDA-excitotoxicity by upregulating superoxide dimutase (SOD) (RefHLFT2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17444804), RefHLFT1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17661329)).

  From my understanding, aloe vera juice does not have as much emodin as the gel does. Aloe vera gel can be sourced here1 (https://www.amazon.com/Amara-Organics-Aloe-Organic-Pressed/dp/B00WRN3TBU/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1534620648&sr=8-12-spons&keywords=aloe+vera+gel+juice&psc=1) or here2 (https://www.amazon.com/Aloe-Vera-Gel-Organic-XANTHAN/dp/B00XTTFI6K/ref=sr_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1534620880&sr=8-5&keywords=aloe%2Bvera%2Bgel%2Bjuice&dpID=51zAqqH1I1L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch&th=1). It should be diluted as 1 Tbs of aloe vera gel per 8oz of water (or other drink). This can be consumed daily 3 times a day. I have already started testing aloe vera gel mixed in a juice with some good results. It clearly crosses the BBB and has positive cognitive effects. I'm thinking that aloe vera gel may be a very effective at stopping POIS. I'll post about my trial later. Below is a commercial aloe vera drink that I have also been drinking. The sugar content is relatively small.
(https://i.imgur.com/iqwG8t9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/qHxIlSx.png)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Quantum on August 20, 2018, 07:10:05 AM
Question for you and all.  I get too much gas in my stomach since childhood.  I have always been naturally skinny but I'm always bloated.  I do take digestive enzymes but still I get gas.  Do other POIS'ers also have this gas problem?

Hi Swell,

What works best for me, for intestinal gas, is taking good quality probiotics, with both lactobacillus and bifidus ( more than one strain of each in it), and take it for some time, to rebuild a good gut flora.  And, obviously, avoiding sugars - not only simple sugars like in desert or sweets, but also staying away from bad complex sugars like starch in white bread ( I eat only whole cereals bread), and avoiding too much potatoes as well ( very rich in starches, which become glucose when digested - I have swicth to kale and broccoli :)  )  .   

The sugars in the gut, when digested by a bad flora, lead to fermentation, so to methane/gas production.  This is the origin of the bloating. One sure sign that this is the case, is that the bloating is better in the morning ( after a night of fasting), and is worsening as you eat during the day, and is worst at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: swell on August 20, 2018, 03:31:58 PM
Thank you Quantum on this good tip.   I placed order for Raw Probiotics 100 billion CFU's.  They are pricey but if I can get rid of this methane it is worth.  Sugar I cannot help.  Placed an order  Gymnema Sylvestre 400 mg.  I am hoping it can take away the intense want for sugary substances I have.   
 

What works best for me, for intestinal gas, is taking good quality probiotics, with both lactobacillus and bifidus ( more than one strain of each in it), and take it for some time, to rebuild a good gut flora.  And, obviously, avoiding sugars - not only simple sugars like in desert or sweets, but also staying away from bad complex sugars like starch in white bread ( I eat only whole cereals bread), and avoiding too much potatoes as well ( very rich in starches, which become glucose when digested - I have swicth to kale and broccoli :)  )  .   

The sugars in the gut, when digested by a bad flora, lead to fermentation, so to methane/gas production.  This is the origin of the bloating. One sure sign that this is the case, is that the bloating is better in the morning ( after a night of fasting), and is worsening as you eat during the day, and is worst at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: swell on August 20, 2018, 03:56:28 PM
In hopes of killing any viruses very interested in this Aloe Emodin, nanna1.   Wondering the links for the 2 gels you have, they are for topical use and not oral?  Searched for oral use gels, but most of them state that they have taken out aloe emodin and other anthraquinones (I think since they are laxative effect which I actually dont mind) but I suspect even larger aloe products have these anthroquinones to have been taken out, so larger population can buy it. 

Also, what do you think about Rhubarb extract as a source for Aloe Emodin:  Ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24685589
Rhubarb extract is easily available and it also has 3-5% Aloe Emodin, whereas Aloe Vera we buy might not have any Emodin in it?  What do you think on the best source of getting this Aloe Emodin.



  From my understanding, aloe vera juice does not have as much emodin as the gel does. Aloe vera gel can be sourced here1 (https://www.amazon.com/Amara-Organics-Aloe-Organic-Pressed/dp/B00WRN3TBU/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1534620648&sr=8-12-spons&keywords=aloe+vera+gel+juice&psc=1) or here2 (https://www.amazon.com/Aloe-Vera-Gel-Organic-XANTHAN/dp/B00XTTFI6K/ref=sr_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1534620880&sr=8-5&keywords=aloe%2Bvera%2Bgel%2Bjuice&dpID=51zAqqH1I1L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch&th=1). It should be diluted as 1 Tbs of aloe vera gel per 8oz of water (or other drink). This can be consumed daily 3 times a day. I have already started testing aloe vera gel mixed in a juice with some good results. It clearly crosses the BBB and has positive cognitive effects. I'm thinking that aloe vera gel may be a very effective at stopping POIS. I'll post about my trial later.

Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on August 20, 2018, 07:47:05 PM
Hi swell,
In hopes of killing any viruses very interested in this Aloe Emodin, nanna1.   Wondering the links for the 2 gels you have, they are for topical use and not oral?  Searched for oral use gels, but most of them state that they have taken out aloe emodin and other anthraquinones (I think since they are laxative effect which I actually dont mind) but I suspect even larger aloe products have these anthroquinones to have been taken out, so larger population can buy it.
  I have bought and tried both of these gels by mixing them in herbal teas or mixing them in the Aloe vera gel drink I took a picture of. I take it with sublingual vitamin D3 (2000IU) and selenomethionine (selenium, 100microgram) daily. I know they say that the gels are only for external use (skin). But I checked the ingredients before I consumed it. All of the ingredients for those two gels are edible. The reason they say "only for external use" is that Aloe vera gel can sometimes be a skin (or epithelia) irritant at high concentrations. This is because it exfoliates dead and damages epithelial cells. But this is a short-term effect. I have not noticed any gastrointestinal issues even after two weeks of large doses. In any case, I read somewhere that before you drink your aloe vera drink you should test it on your skin to make sure there is no reaction.

  So far, (aloe gel drink, vitamin-D3 and selenium) seems more effective than my current stack (POIS Cascade stack). I have had two orgasm in 4 days and I am eating meat (chicken) almost everyday. I want to see if these benefits last a month before I post details about the trial.

  That's why I dilute it in another drink. Aloe vera gel is usually clear, but some Aloe juices are amber colored. The amber colored aloe juices are not effective for me. It could be that when emodin is oxidized, it turns amber. Or maybe as you said, they remove the emodin. For me, only the clear aloe vera gel drinks and my personal diluted aloe gel drinks are effective.

  It took me 2 weeks of drinking it, 3 or 4 times a day before I started to see the full benefits. This tells me that there maybe some long-term benefit beyond stopping a single POIS event. Maybe it is also healing brain vasculature (blood vessels). The collagen promotion, wound healing and anti-inflammatory properties aloe vera are well documented in the cosmetics and skin care industries. Or maybe, it can reduce the total viral load slowly over time.
Also, what do you think about Rhubarb extract as a source for Aloe Emodin:  Ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24685589
Rhubarb extract is easily available and it also has 3-5% Aloe Emodin, whereas Aloe Vera we buy might not have any Emodin in it?  What do you think on the best source of getting this Aloe Emodin.
  From my understanding, aloe vera juice does not have as much emodin as the gel does. Aloe vera gel can be sourced here1 (https://www.amazon.com/Amara-Organics-Aloe-Organic-Pressed/dp/B00WRN3TBU/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1534620648&sr=8-12-spons&keywords=aloe+vera+gel+juice&psc=1) or here2 (https://www.amazon.com/Aloe-Vera-Gel-Organic-XANTHAN/dp/B00XTTFI6K/ref=sr_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1534620880&sr=8-5&keywords=aloe%2Bvera%2Bgel%2Bjuice&dpID=51zAqqH1I1L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch&th=1). It should be diluted as 1 Tbs of aloe vera gel per 8oz of water (or other drink). This can be consumed daily 3 times a day. I have already started testing aloe vera gel mixed in a juice with some good results. It clearly crosses the BBB and has positive cognitive effects. I'm thinking that aloe vera gel may be a very effective at stopping POIS. I'll post about my trial later.
There may be some good Rhubarb extracts out there, but I don't have any experience with it. Any supplemental form of aloe-emodin will ultimately have to be dissolved in a liquid base in order to enter the blood stream. Since aloe gel is already in a liquid base that makes things easy. Rhubarb extract may work though, I just don't know. Also, I am assuming the effects of aloe vera are due to aloe-emodin, but there could be other active ingredients as well. But if you try Rhubarb extract, let me know how it goes. I may switch to Rhubarb if it is cheaper, LOL! I did see that Rhubarb has been used to treat HSV-1 cold sores (in the Treatment Approach: herbs (http://pennstatehershey.adam.com/content.aspx?productId=107&pid=33&gid=000079#Treatment%20Approach) section).
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Quantum on August 20, 2018, 08:29:57 PM
Thank you Quantum on this good tip.   I placed order for Raw Probiotics 100 billion CFU's.  They are pricey but if I can get rid of this methane it is worth.  Sugar I cannot help.  Placed an order  Gymnema Sylvestre 400 mg.  I am hoping it can take away the intense want for sugary substances I have.   
 

What works best for me, for intestinal gas, is taking good quality probiotics, with both lactobacillus and bifidus ( more than one strain of each in it), and take it for some time, to rebuild a good gut flora.  And, obviously, avoiding sugars - not only simple sugars like in desert or sweets, but also staying away from bad complex sugars like starch in white bread ( I eat only whole cereals bread), and avoiding too much potatoes as well ( very rich in starches, which become glucose when digested - I have swicth to kale and broccoli :)  )  .   

The sugars in the gut, when digested by a bad flora, lead to fermentation, so to methane/gas production.  This is the origin of the bloating. One sure sign that this is the case, is that the bloating is better in the morning ( after a night of fasting), and is worsening as you eat during the day, and is worst at the end of the day.

Well, sugar is not unlike a kind of drug.  You have to withdraw from it in a progressive manner,.   Like 10% less a week, to slowly get used to a lower intake of it.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: aswinpras06 on August 21, 2018, 12:23:56 AM
Here is another edible aloe vera gel drink

https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B01N9MCIFB/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But no details regarding amount of aloe emodin and other anthraquinones.

I've bought this one and will post the results after using it very soon.  I have dormant viral infection and if this works it should be an excellent and safe way to prevent them from becoming virulent.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on August 22, 2018, 09:44:33 PM
Hi aswinpras06,

Thanks for posting the aloe vera link. I started with aggressive daily dosages 4 times a day for the first 2 weeks. I also took a dose before and after orgasm. I'm still experimenting to see what is the minimum dose.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on October 01, 2018, 08:07:54 PM
For me, the results of aloe vera gel were inconsistent. Some brands seemed to work while others did not. So I cannot say that aloe vera gel has a clear effect.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: swell on October 01, 2018, 09:51:05 PM
just to update:  I tried aloe vera gel brand that nanna1 suggested.  I felt as if it was causing me sinus and throat issues so I had to stop it.  Strangely my throat is sensitive to certain things like vinegar, lemon and now I'll have to add aloe vera to it.  In past I took diluted aloe vera juice and that too I remember I didn't feel good so stopped it.  So my new trial was short lived.  Though I do hope it helps others, since aloe emodin as nanna1 research shows seems to be a very potent substance.   
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Vandemolen on March 01, 2019, 05:20:43 PM
I will stop with taking fish oil. I have been taking it for a few years. Maybe fish oil is one of the causes of my histamine flushes and my rash. Beside that my DAO is destroyed by antibiotics. Fish oil is giving me heart burn. I will use vegan Omega 3. Fish contains omega 3 because they eat omega 3 containing algae. It takes 220 kilo of fish to produce 1 liter of fish oil. So using vegan omega 3 is also better for the environment.

Fresh fish is healthy, but fish oil could be fermentated. And fermenated food and drinks are high in histamine.

https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2018/03/19/boost-your-dao-levels-to-fight-histamine/
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Jacob on June 27, 2019, 08:26:33 AM
Hi nanna1,

which of aloe vera brands you posted worked for you?
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Jacob on June 29, 2019, 12:36:02 PM
I wondered whether we could overcome the problem of bioavailability by vaporising some of the substances. Camomile, fennel and other natural herbs could be consumed this way. For example does this post (https://medium.com/cbd-origin/what-is-cbd-bioavailability-and-why-does-it-matter-69d9a2e37e6c) compare the bioavailability of CBD through digestion (4-20%), sublingual (12-35%) and vaporising (34-46%). Camomile and fennel teas already have a significant influence on my symptoms, even when taken a post medication.

I might do a trail just by inhaling both.

Does anyone have experience with vaporising substances?
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: b_jim on June 30, 2019, 07:54:09 AM
Quote
Camomile and fennel teas already have a significant influence on my symptoms, even when taken a post medication.

This is  the first time you talk about these plants ? Do you just take them recently ?
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Muon on June 30, 2019, 08:41:47 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamomile#Research

Go to the research section of that page. I'm not surprised, the main compounds are natural mast cell stabilizers.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: nanna1 on July 08, 2019, 07:39:00 PM
Hi nanna1,

which of aloe vera brands you posted worked for you?
Hi Jacob,
OKF Aloe Organic (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2597.msg24937#msg24937)
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: berlin1984 on May 30, 2020, 10:47:31 AM
  I noticed a while back that chewing gum could reduce my POIS symptoms by 50% or more. Originally, I thought this was from the chewing motion. But later I found out that essential oils (peppermint, spearmint, eucalyptus, thyme) are used in some gums to produce cooling, warming, tingling, spicy sensation in the mouth. Cough drops that contain menthol, camphor and thymol were also anti-inflammator in my case. The reason I bring this up is because essential oils are dirt cheap.

In some countries, people even seem to be addicted to those herb scents.

E.g. Thailand https://medium.com/@oranavelarde/what-is-the-deal-with-nasal-inhalers-in-thailand-5edf1d44c6a2 http://www.thailandbreeze.com/thai-inhalers-ya-dom.html

This has their downsides thogh, I think it was camphor(?) that on the long run can kill the ability to sense smell.
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: berlin1984 on October 27, 2021, 02:20:35 PM
Idea: Instead of increasing omega3, what about decreasing the possibly worst offender of omega6, which is Linoleic acid.

Post: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=427.msg42713#msg42713
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Progecitor on November 08, 2022, 03:38:30 AM
1. Ate gingko biloba leaves, twigs , fruits and seeds because there were alot of trees growing nearby. Also took extract at high dosages for long periods of time. It reduced itching but that doesn''t imply it has anything to do with LOX or COX. Other than reduction in itching it did jack shit for other symptoms.

2. Works but you need high dosages, pharmokinetics are garbage and hard to ingest in sufficient quantities. Products on the market are dosed too low and too expensive.

3. Fish oils... took 20 grams of extract for about 3 monhts staight, did jack shit altough it helped with depression and mood. Might as well eat fish all day every day.

4. Thyme , completely nonsense because the content of compounds variates alot. Also the effects are barely noticable even at really high dosages. Only thing it does is reducing anxiety. Does jack shit for allergy symptoms.
5. Jack shit
6. jack shit, altough high dosages work wonder for anxiety or depression too expensive overall.
7. never tried this
8. jack shit
9. Works really but you need extremely high dosages and the pharmacokinetics are shit, you only absorb small amounts and the half-life is shit. tried different dosages for many weeks , usually around 600mg for one month straight. $$$$$$

10. Works however curcumin itself trigger allergic reactions. Dosages taken are 20 to 30 gram of grounded daily prepared in emulsion of lecithins, fatty acids and black pepper. Works wonders for depression and anxiety but actually triggers allergic reactions

11. Not worthwhile like resveratrol. Need high dosages and is too expensive to warrant the effects. Stilbenes are more effective than other compounds when it comes to mast cells because it does reduce itch...but then again only thing is reducing the itch when you are getting destroyed by POIS.

12. Does jack shit. Works for anxiety, breathing problems and actually reduces the negative side effects caused by cannabis. Does help inflammation but does jack shit for the most extreme symptoms of POIS.

13. CBD does jack shit , just helps anxiety but actually causes depression and myraids of symptoms
14. Triggers allergic reactions, seems to worsen everything over time just like NSAIDS.

15. Vitamin C works but you need to inject it in a special way and special solutions. Need years of experience to apply a butterfly IV, IV bag + drip, also you need to process it in a certain  way to reduce its pH. All in all will cost you shitloads of money.

16. Caffeic acid works but it might as wel been rosemaric acid or any other compound. Reduces the itch acoompanied with allergic reaction and reduced the brain fog. Amounts of rosemary used where very high amounts.. high enough to make you cringe for the rest of the day.

17. Tried essential oils.... none of them worked except pinus pinaster oil ( oral ), lemongrass, nutmeg and calamus. Even then the improvement minor, nutmeg is by far the most effective mast cell stabilizer / inhibitor but is also a aphrodisiac and makes you high, also toxic to liver etc.

18. chamomille works against itch and does it well but does little for other symptoms.
19. does jack shit

20. Quercetin works but is too expensive. Amounts you need for a significant reduction in symptoms cause all kinds of side effects just like caffeine including insomnia, stimulation etc etc . not worth the money because again the pharmacokinetics are garbage. Amounts i needed were at least 1 gram of quercetin 3 or 4 times a day and the same amount of rutin.

21. works somewhat, expect to get fucked up by POIS anyway.
22. Ginger .. worst thing i can take
23. doesn't do anything

i've been using cannabis for years now and have been growing CBD rich strains for almost 8 years. Strains are CBD nordle, CBD med gom, Fast eddie, Amnesia auto CBD. Also THC rich strains like white widow, northern lights and many others. Right now i vape 4 grams to 6 grams each day and it does jack shit besides helping me sleep and for anxiety. Even cannabis itself triggers allergic reactions in me now and then. I've also been taking niacin for many years and it actually made everything worse long term, i believe i would have been better off without it.

Most natural compound are eliminated too fast from the body and barely get absorbed. POIS patients already have GI problems and malabsorption so anything besides the injection route will probably be useless. Even then the Half-Life is garbage. I'm not saying you shouldn't try new things but one that doesn't hold a job won't get any worthwhile effects from these expensive supplements. I personally don't even take these threads seriously anymore, i've been isolating compounds for many years and tried them and rarely had any success.

Also the TNF-A model and IL-6 model is severely outdated and rarely is implicated in rarer diseases. Like muon said i've also tested for TNF-A and IL-6 and the results were normal. Everything i read on pubmed did jack shit and everything i read on these forums did jack shit. Only thing that helped is alpha lipoic acid but that's because of my pre-diabetes and has little do with POIS itself. Studies revolve around TNF-a and IL-6 because it's implicated in diabetes and researchers want a big piece of that money industry that's called diabetes so they model their studies after it.

Question is am i better of then previous years with all that cannabis use, supplement and herb use and medicine use.... No i maybe even got worse because of some supplements triggering reactions.  It also made me jaded and made me reject this forum and became very biased towards these idiot researchers setting people in wrong directions.

Also alot of people actually mast cell activation from NSAIDs , LOX or PGE inhibitors this also has been my experience. People don't read the shit that muon for example wrote , people are hang up about taking garlic and niacin and all this other shit because it gives them a feeling they can control the symptoms in which the end is just another delusion.

Many of these can be considered as aphrodisiacs as well.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=4281.0
Title: Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
Post by: Rock76 on March 27, 2023, 11:20:05 AM
Vascepa (4g pure EPA) is far superior to Omega3 (EPA+DHA), it was approved in the USA years ago and in Europe more recently (still not available in all european countries). It vastly lowers systemic inflammation in the body.