POISCENTER
POIS Cause/Treatment Discussions => General Alternative Causes and Treatments of POIS => Topic started by: hurray on May 27, 2020, 01:16:23 PM
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I've been suffering from POIS since 2000, posting on POIS forums since 2009 (Naked Scientist Forum) and more recently on here (since 2011), and I've finally found something that has consistently worked for me.
For the last 6 weeks, I've been taking milnacipran (Savella) before O. After O, there has been no brain fog - every time. My physical symptoms (dry hair, dry forehead, clicking knees) have also gone.
The milnacipran has an unusual side-effect - my Os feel much more intense, and last much longer. This hasn't happened with any other medicines I have tried, and I have tested many different medicines over the years. Again, this happens every time.
I have been taking one dose of 25mg approximately 1 to 1.5 hours before O. Initially I combined it with fenugreek, but now I take it on its own. The result has been 0% brain fog every time.
Milnacipran is an SNRI that inhibits norepinephrine reuptake even at low doses - other popular SNRIs venlafaxine and duloxetine (which I have tried) need much higher doses before there is any significant inhibition of norepinephrine reuptake. I believe that it is the norepinephrine action of milnacipran which is somehow preventing my post-O brain fog.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2938282/
It is early days now, but I sincerely hope that milnacipran will continue to work for me in the long-term. If it becomes less effective or stops working, I will come back to this thread and update it.
I would be happy to answer any questions.
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Interesting. If I take anti-histamines with pseudoephedrine they are more effective than anti-histamines alone (ie Allegra-D). Pseudoephedrine is a norepinephrine releasing agent.
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Interesting. If I take anti-histamines with pseudoephedrine they are more effective than anti-histamines alone (ie Allegra-D). Pseudoephedrine is a norepinephrine releasing agent.
Yes, there could be a connection there.
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Milnacipran was developed firstly as a treatment for fibromyalgia, and some countries prescribe it for depression. Interestingly, fibromyalgia sufferers refer to one of their major symptoms being "fibro fog"/"brain fog".
I've copied a few quotes from a milnacipran (Savella) comment section (from fibromyalgia sufferers):
https://www.rxlist.com/script/main/rxlist_view_comments.asp?drug=savella&questionid=fdb152224_pem
WONDERFUL for energy, pain & brain fog
Pain is significantly reduced, energy is up and brain fog is much, much better.
I think I am most surprised that my thinking is almost 100% clearer! I can concentrate on tasks and actually finish one before I start another. The fibrofog is gone!
So it's interesting that several other people have reported it as curing their brain fog.
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Interesting, hurray!
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I'm curious if you're so long in the game, have you ever tried St. John's wort?
I've never tried it because I don't feel "depressed" as in the sense of sad. Sometimes unmotivated though :-). But if I understand correctly, St. John's Worth is also a reuptake inhibitor, but for more neurotransmitters than Milnacipran
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Interesting. If I take anti-histamines with pseudoephedrine they are more effective than anti-histamines alone (ie Allegra-D). Pseudoephedrine is a norepinephrine releasing agent.
"Pseudoephedrine acts on α- and β2-adrenergic receptors" Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine#Mechanism_of_action)
Activation of β2-adrenergic receptors on mast cells is the primary pathway for adrenergic agents to inhibit mast cells.
Table 1 and chapter 5: Neuroendocrinology of mast cells: Challenges and controversies (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/exd.13288)
Milnacipran is used for fibromyalgia and fibromyalgia is associated/comorbid with mast cell activation disease.
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Have you tried amitriptyline before and also is it safe to take only before O and not regularly, as that is the case with most antidepressants.
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I'm curious if you're so long in the game, have you ever tried St. John's wort?
I've never tried it because I don't feel "depressed" as in the sense of sad. Sometimes unmotivated though :-). But if I understand correctly, St. John's Worth is also a reuptake inhibitor, but for more neurotransmitters than Milnacipran
Hi berlin1984 :)
Yes, I have tried St John's Wort, it worked fairly well as an anti-depressant while I was taking it. I didn't notice any effect on my POIS however :(
I have tried other NRIs which had no comparable effect to milnacipran on my POIS symptoms - it seems to have a very unique effect.
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Have you tried amitriptyline before and also is it safe to take only before O and not regularly, as that is the case with most antidepressants.
I was considering asking my doctor for amitriptylene, but since milnacipran is working so well for me I may not have the opportunity now.
I was prescribed duloxetine and venlafaxine last year (sister SNRIs of milnacipran) - stopping taking duloxetine after a short period was uncomfortable, and stopping venlafaxine was quite a lot worse.
I can't give medical advice - you MUST speak to a doctor with regards to whether or not a prescription medicine is safe to take. Milnacipran has side-effects including nausea (which I have experienced) and increased blood pressure.
With regards to my own situation, I don't feel any withdrawal symptoms after only taking milnacipran before O - unlike venlafaxine and duloxetine.
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Interesting, hurray!
I'm hoping I can blow my brain fog away for good ;D
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Interesting, hurray!
I'm hoping I can blow my brain fog away for good ;D
Achoo to that.
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Achoo to that.
Bless you :)
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Achoo to that.
Bless you :)
;D ;D ;D
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I've been suffering from POIS since 2000, posting on POIS forums since 2009 (Naked Scientist Forum) and more recently on here (since 2011), and I've finally found something that has consistently worked for me.
For the last 6 weeks, I've been taking milnacipran (Savella) before O. After O, there has been no brain fog - every time. My physical symptoms (dry hair, dry forehead, clicking knees) have also gone.
The milnacipran has an unusual side-effect - my Os feel much more intense, and last much longer. This hasn't happened with any other medicines I have tried, and I have tested many different medicines over the years. Again, this happens every time.
I have been taking one dose of 50mg approximately 1 to 1.5 hours before O. Initially I combined it with fenugreek, but now I take it on its own. The result has been 0% brain fog every time.
Milnacipran is an SNRI that inhibits norepinephrine reuptake even at low doses - other popular SNRIs venlafaxine and duloxetine (which I have tried) need much higher doses before there is any significant inhibition of norepinephrine reuptake. I believe that it is the norepinephrine action of milnacipran which is somehow preventing my post-O brain fog.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2938282/
It is early days now, but I sincerely hope that milnacipran will continue to work for me in the long-term. If it becomes less effective or stops working, I will come back to this thread and update it.
I would be happy to answer any questions.
Do you have social dysfunction symptoms and does this medication help with it?
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I've been suffering from POIS since 2000, posting on POIS forums since 2009 (Naked Scientist Forum) and more recently on here (since 2011), and I've finally found something that has consistently worked for me.
For the last 6 weeks, I've been taking milnacipran (Savella) before O. After O, there has been no brain fog - every time. My physical symptoms (dry hair, dry forehead, clicking knees) have also gone.
The milnacipran has an unusual side-effect - my Os feel much more intense, and last much longer. This hasn't happened with any other medicines I have tried, and I have tested many different medicines over the years. Again, this happens every time.
I have been taking one dose of 50mg approximately 1 to 1.5 hours before O. Initially I combined it with fenugreek, but now I take it on its own. The result has been 0% brain fog every time.
Milnacipran is an SNRI that inhibits norepinephrine reuptake even at low doses - other popular SNRIs venlafaxine and duloxetine (which I have tried) need much higher doses before there is any significant inhibition of norepinephrine reuptake. I believe that it is the norepinephrine action of milnacipran which is somehow preventing my post-O brain fog.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2938282/
It is early days now, but I sincerely hope that milnacipran will continue to work for me in the long-term. If it becomes less effective or stops working, I will come back to this thread and update it.
I would be happy to answer any questions.
Do you have social dysfunction symptoms and does this medication help with it?
Yes, having to deal with other people is one of the worst things about my POIS brain fog.
Going to work with POIS is a nightmare for me - it's really difficult to have conversations,
I can't find the right words to say, and I badly want to be left alone.
After O with milnacipran, it is business as usual at work. I am clear-headed, and socially
I'm the same as if I hadn't had an O for a week.
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Yes, having to deal with other people is one of the worst things about my POIS brain fog.
Going to work with POIS is a nightmare for me - it's really difficult to have conversations,
I can't find the right words to say, and I badly want to be left alone.
After O with milnacipran, it is business as usual at work. I am clear-headed, and socially
I'm the same as if I hadn't had an O for a week.
Wow, this sounds incredible. I don't think there is a medication that worked 100% for someone in this forum.
Do you mind if I ask if you have premature ejaculation or not?
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Yes, having to deal with other people is one of the worst things about my POIS brain fog.
Going to work with POIS is a nightmare for me - it's really difficult to have conversations,
I can't find the right words to say, and I badly want to be left alone.
After O with milnacipran, it is business as usual at work. I am clear-headed, and socially
I'm the same as if I hadn't had an O for a week.
Wow, this sounds incredible. I don't think there is a medication that worked 100% for someone in this forum.
Do you mind if I ask if you have premature ejaculation or not?
Nobody was more amazed than me Nas :) I was starting to give up hope after all these years and all the things that I'd tried.
It seemed unlikely that anyone was going to develop a medicine specifically for POIS, so I thought my best chance would be to find an existing medicine that I could use "off-label".
Yes, I suffered quite badly from PE in my twenties and early 30s, not so much now.
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It seemed unlikely that anyone was going to develop a medicine specifically for POIS, so I thought my best chance would be to
find an existing medicine that I could use "off-label".
Exactly what I did, too, hurray!
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Have you tried amitriptyline before and also is it safe to take only before O and not regularly, as that is the case with most antidepressants.
I was considering asking my doctor for amitriptylene, but since milnacipran is working so well for me I may not have the opportunity now.
I was prescribed duloxetine and venlafaxine last year (sister SNRIs of milnacipran) - stopping taking duloxetine after a short period was uncomfortable, and stopping venlafaxine was quite a lot worse.
I can't give medical advice - you MUST speak to a doctor with regards to whether or not a prescription medicine is safe to take. Milnacipran has side-effects including nausea (which I have experienced) and increased blood pressure.
With regards to my own situation, I don't feel any withdrawal symptoms after only taking milnacipran before O - unlike venlafaxine and duloxetine.
Why consider amitriptylene? Does it have some potential advantage over milnacipren?
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Why consider amitriptylene? Does it have some potential advantage over milnacipren?
I'm not I was just asking if he has tried it before as I have tried it before with no success.
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Why consider amitriptylene? Does it have some potential advantage over milnacipren?
I was interested in amitriptylene because it blocks the reuptake of norepinephrine neurotransmitters. It has no potential advantage over milnacipran that I know of.
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It seemed unlikely that anyone was going to develop a medicine specifically for POIS, so I thought my best chance would be to
find an existing medicine that I could use "off-label".
Exactly what I did, too, hurray!
And it worked for you! :)
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Thank you, it’s been a long long life struggle. And I’m still hoping for research to discover how to treat myself without becoming a groggy mess :)
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Thank you, it’s been a long long life struggle. And I’m still hoping for research to discover how to treat myself without becoming a groggy mess :)
We have both put a lot of time and energy into beating POIS. The new research into POIS is exciting, and I really hope they can find a treatment for everybody.
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hurray, thank you! Your enthusiasm for the current POIS research program is hugely appreciated!
Whatever the outcome, it’s guaranteed to put us on the medical map.
It means far more serious visibility of POIS in the medical community, and an easier entry into the world of large scale medical research such as NIH, which funds billions of dollars into scientific inquiry into medical disorders.
And our research team is committed to getting us there!
Without this important first step, our chances of POIS treatment success would be extremely limited. Simply said, we desperately need outside professional help, which we’re finally getting!
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hurray, thank you! Your enthusiasm for the current POIS research program is hugely appreciated!
Whatever the outcome, it’s guaranteed to put us on the medical map.
It means far more serious visibility of POIS in the medical community, and an easier entry into the world of large scale medical research such as NIH, which funds billions of dollars into scientific inquiry into medical disorders.
And our research team is committed to getting us there!
Without this important first step, our chances of POIS treatment success would be extremely limited. Simply said, we desperately need outside professional help, which we’re finally getting!
Yes :) These are exciting times for the POIS community. Genuine scientific studies with test subjects can lead us to some real insights into the curse of POIS.
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Another POIS-free O last night, feeling completely fine today.
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So your main POIS symptom is brain fog? You didn't have aches and pains or other flu-like symptoms?
Do you have happen to know if you have any reaction to high histamine foods like red wine, soy sauce, etc?
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Another POIS-free O last night, feeling completely fine today.
Man, it must feel wonderful to get rid of such a bane in our life.
Can some one else try Milnacipran? I think I'll try it once lockdown gets lifted.
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Another POIS-free O last night, feeling completely fine today.
Man, it must feel wonderful to get rid of such a bane in our life.
Can some one else try Milnacipran? I think I'll try it once lockdown gets lifted.
It does feel strange having so much extra time in my week. Normally, I could say goodbye to the three days following O, which was usually my weekend.
In the event of anybody else trying milnacipran, with the help of their doctor, it would probably be wise to start with a 25mg dose. My own weight is over the 100kg threshold - I doubt that 50mg of milnacipran (my own dose) would be suitable for everyone.
update: I now take a 25mg dose only
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So your main POIS symptom is brain fog? You didn't have aches and pains or other flu-like symptoms?
Do you have happen to know if you have any reaction to high histamine foods like red wine, soy sauce, etc?
I enjoy red wine - it doesn't give me any POIS symptoms. My body on POIS feels weak - knees and elbows click and ache. My hair and the skin on my forehead feel incredibly dry in POIS.
But my inability to be sociable during POIS is by far the worst symptom in terms of the effect on my life.
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In the event of anybody else trying milnacipran, with the help of their doctor, it would probably be wise to start with a 25mg dose. My own weight is over the 100kg threshold - I doubt that 50mg of milnacipran (my own dose) would be suitable for everyone.
Ok, thanks for the heads up!
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Another POIS-free O last night, feeling completely fine today.
Great, hurray!
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hurray, thank you! Your enthusiasm for the current POIS research program is hugely appreciated!
Whatever the outcome, it’s guaranteed to put us on the medical map.
It means far more serious visibility of POIS in the medical community, and an easier entry into the world of large scale medical research such as NIH, which funds billions of dollars into scientific inquiry into medical disorders.
And our research team is committed to getting us there!
Without this important first step, our chances of POIS treatment success would be extremely limited. Simply said, we desperately need outside professional help, which we’re finally getting!
Yes :) These are exciting times for the POIS community. Genuine scientific studies with test subjects can lead us to some real insights into the curse of POIS.
Sent to POIS Research Team.
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Sent to POIS Research Team.
Thank you Demo :)
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Sent to POIS Research Team.
Thank you Demo :)
My pleasure, hurray :)
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After another O last night with milnacipran, I've been talking to various people today as if nothing had happened.
I feel fine :)
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You dont take it regulary, yust before , after O ?
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After another O last night with milnacipran, I've been talking to various people today as if nothing had happened.
I feel fine :)
Exciting news, hurray!
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You dont take it regulary, yust before , after O ?
Hi hopeoneday,
No, I don't take it regularly. I take one dose approximately 1-1.5 hours before O.
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Milnacipran inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine. Is this having an effect on my immune system, and stopping my POIS symptoms after O?
The sympathetic effects of norepinephrine include:
Multiple effects on the immune system. The sympathetic nervous system is the primary path of interaction between the immune system and the brain, and several components receive sympathetic inputs, including the thymus, spleen, and lymph nodes. However the effects are complex, with some immune processes activated while others are inhibited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine
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"There are several drugs which boost norepinephrine, so why is milnacipran any different?"
Well, I have already tried several NRIs:
atomoxetine (Strattera) - uncomfortable feeling during O, brain fog remained
buproprion - made me feel jittery, brain fog remained
ritalin - gave me energy and focus before quickly building up tolerance, did not stop the brain fog
duloxetine - felt like bad flu, could not drive or work, withdrawal symptoms, too sick to accurately gauge brain fog
venlafaxine - felt like bad flu, could not drive or work, bad withdrawal symptoms, too sick to accurately gauge brain fog
The effects of duloxetine and venlafaxine (both SNRIs) were interesting. They made me feel terrible - there was no way that I could take them every day. But my POIS felt a bit different while I was on both drugs.
I read that duloxetine and venlafaxine don't have a powerful effect on norepinephrine at low doses. There was only a substantial norepinephrine reuptake inhibition effect at high doses.
Venlafaxine has potency at serotonin transporters which is about 30-fold greater than that at norepinephrine transporters while milnacipran has a similar potency at each transporter. Thus, at low doses, venlafaxine acts essentially as a SSRI, with significant noradrenergic activity only occurring at higher doses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819762/
Trying milnacipran, I was surprised to find that a low one-off dose was sufficient to completely stop the POIS brain fog that I have been accustomed to for so many years. I attributed this to the powerful effect that milnacipran has on norepinephrine reuptake inhibition.
Milnacipran also has multiple reports that it cured the brain fog of fibromyalgia sufferers.
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Hi hurray, quite encouraging to hear this. Thanks a lot for sharing this.
One member in this forum found beta blockers effective. Beta blockers block beta adrenergic receptors. How different would this be from a noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor I don't know. But it seems the noradrenaline/adrenaline pathways are key for POIS symptoms to occur.
It's also interesting that the brain fog / fatigue symptoms of POIS could be using the same biochemical pathways as fibromyalgia.
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Have you tried amitriptyline before and also is it safe to take only before O and not regularly, as that is the case with most antidepressants.
I was considering asking my doctor for amitriptylene, but since milnacipran is working so well for me I may not have the opportunity now.
A doctor told me it takes amitryptiline about 3 weeks to get into our system and become effective. So amitryptiline may not be as effective as a single dose option like milnacipran.
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Hi hurray, quite encouraging to hear this. Thanks a lot for sharing this.
One member in this forum found beta blockers effective. Beta blockers block beta adrenergic receptors. How different would this be from a noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor I don't know. But it seems the noradrenaline/adrenaline pathways are key for POIS symptoms to occur.
It's also interesting that the brain fog / fatigue symptoms of POIS could be using the same biochemical pathways as fibromyalgia.
Hi Kingfisher. The milnacipran is still working as of 2 days ago :)
That's an interesting comparison between beta blockers and NRIs. I agree that noradrenaline (norepinephrine) pathways could be an important part of understanding POIS symptoms. Amitriptyline has potential, but as you point out, you would have to take it all the time for it to become effective.
I found a couple of interesting articles discussing brain fog, fatigue, norepinephrine and milnacipran:
Fibrofog and fibromyalgia: a narrative review and implications for clinical practice
First and foremost, patients’ experiences of cognitive impairment/mental fogginess should be acknowledged. Fibrofog is real, and appropriate neurocognitive testing can reveal these deficits.
Recognizing that fibromyalgia is associated with a CNS dysfunction, serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors have been recommended for and used to treat the pain and other neuropsychological symptoms.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25583051/
Effects of Milnacipran on the Multidimensional Aspects of Fatigue and the Relationship of Fatigue to Pain and Function: Pooled Analysis of 3 Fibromyalgia Trials
Factors that may contribute to central fatigue include elevation of proinflammatory cytokines and activation of nitric oxide synthase pathways dysfunction of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and low levels of neurotransmitters such as serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine. As an SNRI, milnacipran is thought to act on the central nervous system by increasing levels of serotonin and norepinephrine, which may alleviate some of the neurotransmitter deficits associated with fatigue.
In placebo-controlled studies, treatment with milnacipran resulted in statistically significant and clinically meaningful improvement in mean fatigue levels and in a higher proportion of ‘‘responders’’ (ie, patients with Q30% reduction in fatigue).
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24847745/
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Have you tried amitriptyline before and also is it safe to take only before O and not regularly, as that is the case with most antidepressants.
I was considering asking my doctor for amitriptylene, but since milnacipran is working so well for me I may not have the opportunity now.
A doctor told me it takes amitryptiline about 3 weeks to get into our system and become effective. So amitryptiline may not be as effective as a single dose option like milnacipran.
This latency applies to basically all antidepressants, but only for the serotonergic antidepressive component and not this pharmacological action. It is simply a differing pharmacological receptor binding profile between the two antidepressants and milnacipran has a higher affinity for the adrenergic receptor I guess.
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A case study whose subject found relief with Milnacipran both with premature ejaculation und postcoital headaches. Took 50mg, and tried a beta blocker and indomethacin without success.
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A case study whose subject found relief with Milnacipran both with premature ejaculation und postcoital headaches. Took 50mg, and tried a beta blocker and indomethacin without success.
I think I've found the case study you mention. Very interesting, thanks :)
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Citation/2019/10000/Milnacipran_for_Postcoital_Cephalgia_and_Premature.37.aspx
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Thanks, hurray
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A case study whose subject found relief with Milnacipran both with premature ejaculation und postcoital headaches. Took 50mg, and tried a beta blocker and indomethacin without success.
I think I've found the case study you mention. Very interesting, thanks :)
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Citation/2019/10000/Milnacipran_for_Postcoital_Cephalgia_and_Premature.37.aspx
[/quote
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No POIS for over 2 months now. Milnacipran continues to work :)
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Great, hurray!
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Great, hurray!
Thanks Demo :)
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No POIS for over 2 months now. Milnacipran continues to work :)
Awesome, congrats! I will try this also, I have a feeling it might be the right thing for me. Did the quality of your orgasms change?
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No POIS for over 2 months now. Milnacipran continues to work :)
Awesome, congrats! I will try this also, I have a feeling it might be the right thing for me. Did the quality of your orgasms change?
Thanks Mushnikk :)
Yes indeed, my Os became a lot more intense, and lasted for longer. I've never experienced this effect with any other medicine or supplement. A very pleasant side-effect.
If you do decide to give it a try, good luck! Milnacipran is quite cheap :)
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I was considering asking my doctor for amitriptylene, but since milnacipran is working so well for me I may not have the opportunity now.
I took amitriptylene for a few years, but it did not help me. I stopped because of the side effects like sweating. Do not stop cold turkey, but ask your doctor.
A doctor told me it takes amitryptiline about 3 weeks to get into our system and become effective. So amitryptiline may not be as effective as a single dose option like milnacipran.
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I was considering asking my doctor for amitriptylene, but since milnacipran is working so well for me I may not have the opportunity now.
I took amitriptylene for a few years, but it did not help me. I stopped because of the side effects like sweating. Do not stop cold turkey, but ask your doctor.
A doctor told me it takes amitryptiline about 3 weeks to get into our system and become effective. So amitryptiline may not be as effective as a single dose option like milnacipran.
Hi Vandemolen!
The side effects of amitriptylene do sound nasty, I doubt that I will try it now. Milnacipran has its own side effects, I felt some nausea the first few times I tried it. It has also been known to increase blood pressure for some people.
But it also stops me getting brain fog :)
After O, I feel more relaxed and cheerful, but I have no difficulty having a conversation, going shopping, or going for a drive. The fog does not descend on my brain any more. Feeling good after an O is nice after all these years :)
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Once again, milnacipran has prevented me from having any brain fog following an O.
It is by far the most effective thing I have ever tried in order to get rid of my POIS. And I have tried many, many different drugs and supplements over the last 20 years.
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Hi
That sounds so promising! Please, tell me, i understand brain fog was your main symptom. Did you not suffer from depression/anxiety when on pois?
If so, did these symptoms disappear also?
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Hi Aladin,
That's an excellent question. Being able to talk normally to friends, family and work colleagues without brain fog is a huge benefit. But milnacipran does help with my depression and anxiety too. After all, it is classified in some countries as an anti-depressant.
I currently take it "on demand", so the effects have usually gone within 24 hours. If you were to take it every day as an anti-depressant under medical supervision, my guess is that it could help with any depression/anxiety issues that you may have in addition to getting rid of the brain fog. But you would need to speak to a doctor to get a proper opinion about that :)
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It is still working as well as ever :)
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It is still working as well as ever :)
I've been trying to buy this medication but it's been so difficult to escape a 3 days cycle of masturbation that I can't seem to escape. My sleep has also been in ruins, sleeping at the morning and waking up at night. :(
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It is still working as well as ever :)
I've been trying to buy this medication but it's been so difficult to escape a 3 days cycle of masturbation that I can't seem to escape. My sleep has also been in ruins, sleeping at the morning and waking up at night. :(
Sorry to hear about your sleep problems - I've also suffered from bad sleeping patterns in the past. Over-the-counter diphenhydramine (Nytol etc) has helped me get back on track before when I was sleeping and waking at crazy times.
The milnacipran I've been taking is called Milza, a generic brand from India.
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Sorry to hear about your sleep problems - I've also suffered from bad sleeping patterns in the past. Over-the-counter diphenhydramine (Nytol etc) has helped me get back on track before when I was sleeping and waking at crazy times.
The milnacipran I've been taking is called Milza, a generic brand from India.
Well after I finally was able to go to the pharmacy, it turns out it's not available in Turkey. So never mind.
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Sorry to hear about your sleep problems - I've also suffered from bad sleeping patterns in the past. Over-the-counter diphenhydramine (Nytol etc) has helped me get back on track before when I was sleeping and waking at crazy times.
The milnacipran I've been taking is called Milza, a generic brand from India.
Well after I finally was able to go to the pharmacy, it turns out it's not available in Turkey. So never mind.
That's unfortunate, Nas. It doesn't seem to be a controlled drug in most countries, but it is relatively rare. I suppose if it was common, statistically many POIS sufferers would have tried it already, and perhaps we would have more milnacipran successes :)
I was only able to get Milza (milnacipran) by buying from an online pharmacy - it is not available in the UK either.
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I know they're not the same, but try St. Johns Wort?
Prescription free everywhere (except Ireland, I heard)
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This drug is for treatment of Fibromyalgia. I can't help but notice the similarities between Fibromyalgia symptoms and POIS. I wonder if we are suffering from a similar or even the same ailment.
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This drug is for treatment of Fibromyalgia. I can't help but notice the similarities between Fibromyalgia symptoms and POIS. I wonder if we are suffering from a similar or even the same ailment.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2301.msg35425#msg35425
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This drug is for treatment of Fibromyalgia. I can't help but notice the similarities between Fibromyalgia symptoms and POIS. I wonder if we are suffering from a similar or even the same ailment.
You're not the only one..
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=994.msg35200#msg35200
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I know they're not the same, but try St. Johns Wort?
Prescription free everywhere (except Ireland, I heard)
I've tried it without success, but it might help somebody else :)
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This drug is for treatment of Fibromyalgia. I can't help but notice the similarities between Fibromyalgia symptoms and POIS. I wonder if we are suffering from a similar or even the same ailment.
There certainly are some similarities, several studies talk about "brain fog"/"fibrofog" in relation to fibromyalgia. Brain fog is my primary symptom, so it made sense to try milnacipran.
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milnacipran, do u know if it can be used everyday. Or may be everyday for like a month untill constant brainfog is gone.
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milnacipran, do u know if it can be used everyday. Or may be everyday for like a month untill constant brainfog is gone.
Milnacipran is normally taken daily or twice daily when it's used to treat fibromyaglia or depression/anxiety. I take it as required, but I would be very surprised if it didn't work if taken more frequently. It worked the first time I took it, but I held off from posting on here for 6 weeks to make sure that it worked every time.
I've never tried it when I had brain fog already - the milnacipran has prevented me from getting any brain fog for about 3 months now.
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I've never tried it when I had brain fog already - the milnacipran has prevented me from getting any brain fog for about 3 months now.
Do you still have other POIS symptoms, even if you do not have any brain fog anymore ?
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I've never tried it when I had brain fog already - the milnacipran has prevented me from getting any brain fog for about 3 months now.
Do you still have other POIS symptoms, even if you do not have any brain fog anymore ?
The short answer is no :)
I didn't suffer badly from physical POIS symptoms - my knees ached and clicked, I got straw-like hair, and my forehead was very dry. None of those physical symptoms happen to me now.
It would be very interesting to know if people with more physical POIS symptoms would benefit from milnacipran.
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It would be very interesting to know if people with more physical POIS symptoms would benefit from milnacipran.
I agree because it got other properties:
Anti-inflammatory and anti-hyperalgesic effects of milnacipran in inflamed rats: involvement of myeloperoxidase activity, cytokines and oxidative/nitrosative stress (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10787-020-00726-2)
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You're not the only one that found it increased orgasm intensity. Perhaps this is a clue.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/comments/5exgcc/could_someone_provide_insight_on_the_effect_of/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/comments/5exgcc/could_someone_provide_insight_on_the_effect_of/)
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You're not the only one that found it increased orgasm intensity. Perhaps this is a clue.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/comments/5exgcc/could_someone_provide_insight_on_the_effect_of/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/comments/5exgcc/could_someone_provide_insight_on_the_effect_of/)
Very interesting drop247, thank you for sharing that :) Perhaps increasing/stabilizing norepinephrine levels leads to the increased intensity?
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It would be very interesting to know if people with more physical POIS symptoms would benefit from milnacipran.
I agree because it got other properties:
Anti-inflammatory and anti-hyperalgesic effects of milnacipran in inflamed rats: involvement of myeloperoxidase activity, cytokines and oxidative/nitrosative stress (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10787-020-00726-2)
That is a very interesting study.
Pro-inflammatory cytokines increased COX activity and subsequently PGs release (Neeb et al. 2011; Yang et al.2008). It is plausible that milnacipran may decrease pain and inflammation through inhibition of COX isoenzymes.
Milnacipran does seem to have many useful properties.
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This is great news Hurray. Thanks for sharing it, and for reappearing to answer questions. Very grateful.
I checked every hospital in Thailand, unfortunately they recently stopped importing Milnacipran into the country. Such a pity, because brain fog is a nightmare for me too. Complete inability to socialise. Has plagued me for years. Total state of confusion for several days after O. I was desperate to find it, and now with COVID countries are closed, nothing is easy.
I may fly to another country as soon as it opens just to try it.
If there is any hope at all, I have to go for it.
One question, have you ever tried it after orgasm? E.g. after a wet dream? And do you take it on an empty stomach or with food or it doesn't matter?
Thanks a lot,
Jeff
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This is great news Hurray. Thanks for sharing it, and for reappearing to answer questions. Very grateful.
I checked every hospital in Thailand, unfortunately they recently stopped importing Milnacipran into the country. Such a pity, because brain fog is a nightmare for me too. Complete inability to socialise. Has plagued me for years. Total state of confusion for several days after O. I was desperate to find it, and now with COVID countries are closed, nothing is easy.
I may fly to another country as soon as it opens just to try it.
If there is any hope at all, I have to go for it.
One question, have you ever tried it after orgasm? E.g. after a wet dream? And do you take it on an empty stomach or with food or it doesn't matter?
Thanks a lot,
Jeff
Hi Laotzu, welcome to the forum :)
Your brain fog sounds a lot like mine - even basic conversations are a challenge in POIS for me, and I just try to avoid all human contact.
All my orgasms have been POIS-free (I never thought I'd be able to say that!), so I haven't had the chance to test it after orgasm. I've tried it with and without food, it doesn't seem to make much difference.
I live in the UK, and it's not available here either. I purchased my supply from an online pharmacy - 25ml Milza capsules. Interesting that Thailand recently stopped importing milnacipran, I hope it doesn't become more difficult to buy in other countries too.
Let me know if you have any more questions :)
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This is great news Hurray. Thanks for sharing it, and for reappearing to answer questions. Very grateful.
I checked every hospital in Thailand, unfortunately they recently stopped importing Milnacipran into the country. Such a pity, because brain fog is a nightmare for me too. Complete inability to socialise. Has plagued me for years. Total state of confusion for several days after O. I was desperate to find it, and now with COVID countries are closed, nothing is easy.
I may fly to another country as soon as it opens just to try it.
If there is any hope at all, I have to go for it.
One question, have you ever tried it after orgasm? E.g. after a wet dream? And do you take it on an empty stomach or with food or it doesn't matter?
Thanks a lot,
Jeff
Hi Laotzu, welcome to the forum :)
Your brain fog sounds a lot like mine - even basic conversations are a challenge in POIS for me, and I just try to avoid all human contact.
All my orgasms have been POIS-free (I never thought I'd be able to say that!), so I haven't had the chance to test it after orgasm. I've tried it with and without food, it doesn't seem to make much difference.
I live in the UK, and it's not available here either. I purchased my supply from an online pharmacy - 25ml Milza capsules. Interesting that Thailand recently stopped importing milnacipran, I hope it doesn't become more difficult to buy in other countries too.
Let me know if you have any more questions :)
Where did you order it if I may ask? Send me a pm with the info, thanks!
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Hi Hurray. If you can, it would also be great to know where I can get this online. If not, I'll be forced to fly overseas to get it which I really cannot afford to do, but I cannot continue to live like this.
Did you need a prescription to buy it online? I can get one here, but have no idea how that works when buying overseas.
Appreciate the information you provided regarding taking the pills and food. Glad you've had success with it for 3+ months too, amazing news. You must be living a whole new life. I can't even imagine it.
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PMs sent. Prescriptions are usually only involved when buying from a pharmacy in your own country - processing prescriptions from overseas would be a nightmare.
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Thank you Hurray. Much appreciated... 🙏
I am very cautious - if you take a moment to research these online pharmacies they all look like complete scams. I have checked the reviews for the place you ordered from and the reviews are very fishy. Many people say fraud happened on their credit card shortly after ordering. Their Facebook page has a few comments saying they paid but didn't receive their order, and the company never replies. That was 3 years ago... Very fishy to me.
I also read about the legitimacy of online pharmacies and they say that you know it's fraudulent if they don't request a prescription for a drug that normally requires one from a doctor. To me this also seems very strange and illegal. Drug addicts could exploit them if this was the case. The worry is that the medication you will receive is not genuine. May even be harmful.
I am encouraged by your post still, and am amazed by your results. It is possible you got lucky with your prescription. But you'll notice if you call the place you bought it from, they will not answer the phone. And when you try to pay by credit card it says 'technical error' and then asks you to pay by wireless transfer. Very, very fishy to me. Who knows. Sometimes the competitors write these negative reviews, but they never seem to try and reply to the complaints or answer calls, so I am highly sceptical.
Still, I am willing to give it a try from a legitimate pharmacy - the worst that can happen is it doesn't work. It seems it worked on your first use of it, so there is no big risk relative to the benefit.
Thanks again for your info... Really appreciate it.
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Hi Laotzu,
I would like to emphasise that I do NOT recommend people purchase prescription drugs via unofficial channels. If, following a consultation with a doctor, they decide to prescribe you some medicine, you should then get that prescription filled at a local pharmacy that you trust.
I am not here to promote or defend online pharmacies, so I can't really address the points that you make here. I have made multiple milnacipran purchases from the pharmacy you refer to, and each of them were successfully delivered without any issues, but I am NOT recommending that anybody else does the same.
Thailand is a beautiful country, would love to visit again one day :)
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Weird. Wonder why it cures your dry hair too. Its just an antidepressant
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Weird. Wonder why it cures your dry hair too. Its just an antidepressant
Milnacipran was developed as a cure for fibromyalgia, but it has a secondary use as an antidepressant. Most common antidepressants are SSRIs that increase levels of serotonin, milnacipran is an SNRI that increases both serotonin and norepinephrine.
Apparently, norepinephrine regulates keratinocyte proliferation to promote the growth of hair follicles:
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/446020
It's possible that without milnacipran, my norepinephrine levels drop much lower than normal after O, which might interfere with the process described above, causing my hair to feel very dry.
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Weird. Wonder why it cures your dry hair too. Its just an antidepressant
Milnacipran was developed as a cure for fibromyalgia, but it has a secondary use as an antidepressant. Most common antidepressants are SSRIs that increase levels of serotonin, milnacipran is an SNRI that increases both serotonin and norepinephrine.
Apparently, norepinephrine regulates keratinocyte proliferation to promote the growth of hair follicles:
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/446020
It's possible that without milnacipran, my norepinephrine levels drop much lower than normal after O, which might interfere with the process described above, causing my hair to feel very dry.
U feel same u did before getting POIS? Mind works same as b4 getting it?
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Weird. Wonder why it cures your dry hair too. Its just an antidepressant
Milnacipran was developed as a cure for fibromyalgia, but it has a secondary use as an antidepressant. Most common antidepressants are SSRIs that increase levels of serotonin, milnacipran is an SNRI that increases both serotonin and norepinephrine.
Apparently, norepinephrine regulates keratinocyte proliferation to promote the growth of hair follicles:
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/446020
It's possible that without milnacipran, my norepinephrine levels drop much lower than normal after O, which might interfere with the process described above, causing my hair to feel very dry.
U feel same u did before getting POIS? Mind works same as b4 getting it?
That's a good question, Journey. I've had POIS for over 20 years, so it's not easy to be sure exactly how my mind worked back then compared with now.
In terms of being able to be sociable straight after O, yes my mind is working in the same way.
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Weird. Wonder why it cures your dry hair too. Its just an antidepressant
Milnacipran was developed as a cure for fibromyalgia, but it has a secondary use as an antidepressant. Most common antidepressants are SSRIs that increase levels of serotonin, milnacipran is an SNRI that increases both serotonin and norepinephrine.
Apparently, norepinephrine regulates keratinocyte proliferation to promote the growth of hair follicles:
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/446020
It's possible that without milnacipran, my norepinephrine levels drop much lower than normal after O, which might interfere with the process described above, causing my hair to feel very dry.
U feel same u did before getting POIS? Mind works same as b4 getting it?
That's a good question, Journey. I've had POIS for over 20 years, so it's not easy to be sure exactly how my mind worked back then compared with now.
In terms of being able to be sociable straight after O, yes my mind is working in the same way.
Do you recall more stuff now? Has time perception speed changed?
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Yes, my time perception speed has increased as I've aged, maybe 20%-30%. Although if I am doing something particularly interesting or challenging, it slows right down. Not sure of any link to POIS, but interesting to think about :)
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(https://images.vitaminimages.com/pp/VF/puritanspride/product_images/product_detail/074935.jpg)
hurray, do you (or any other forum member) know anything about dietary supplement Prevagen?
My pharmacist recommended it to counter aging-related memory loss.
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I'd be worried about the "false advertising" claims https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1486/apoaequorin
Since you're anyway on TRT, I'd try Bacopa Monnierei (which causes temporary male infertility). It's "time proven" by the Indians :-)
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=bacopa+monnieri+memory+loss
I have a bunch at home, but stopped taking it because I'm still interested in having a second child.
(That said.. given the side effects... maybe this herb is an interesting approach to try to treat POIS!??)
EDIT: let's discuss Bacopa on https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2403.msg35698
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(https://images.vitaminimages.com/pp/VF/puritanspride/product_images/product_detail/074935.jpg)
hurray, do you (or any other forum member) know anything about dietary supplement Prevagen?
My pharmacist recommended it to counter aging-related memory loss.
Not available here in Canada, but it does look like the company had exaggerated its supposed benefits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aequorin#Marketing
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(https://images.vitaminimages.com/pp/VF/puritanspride/product_images/product_detail/074935.jpg)hurray, do you (or any other forum member) know anything about dietary supplement Prevagen? My pharmacist recommended it to counter aging-related memory loss.
Not available here in Canada, but it does look like the company had exaggerated its supposed benefits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aequorin#Marketing
Thanks, Quantum!!
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Norepinephrine enhances the LPS-induced expression of COX-2 and secretion of PGE2 in primary rat microglia (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1742-2094-7-2)
"The monoamine norepinephrine reduces the production of cytokines by activated microglia in vitro."
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Norepinephrine enhances the LPS-induced expression of COX-2 and secretion of PGE2 in primary rat microglia (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1742-2094-7-2)
"The monoamine norepinephrine reduces the production of cytokines by activated microglia in vitro."
Thanks Muon, good find. Perhaps having an O without milnacipran lowers my norepinephrine levels to the extent that the production of cytokines is greatly increased, triggering POIS. It certainly fits the MCAS theory of POIS.
With milnacipran, maybe cytokine production remains low, and POIS is averted.
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Have you tried NSAIDs hurray?
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Have you tried NSAIDs hurray?
Yes, I sometimes take ibuprofen, but it doesn't seem to have any effect on my POIS symptoms.
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IDK how significant is this but according to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milnacipran): "Recently, levomilnacipran, the levorotatory enantiomer of milnacipran, has been found to act as an inhibitor of beta-site amyloid precursor protein cleaving enzyme-1 (BACE-1), which is responsible for β-amyloid plaque formation, and hence may be a potentially useful drug in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease."
β-amyloid plaque formation causes irregular ion channel activity and BACE-1 is triggered by cytokine release.
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Effects of paroxetine or milnacipran on serum brain-derived neurotrophic factor in depressed patients (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0278584607000954)
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IDK how significant is this but according to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milnacipran): "Recently, levomilnacipran, the levorotatory enantiomer of milnacipran, has been found to act as an inhibitor of beta-site amyloid precursor protein cleaving enzyme-1 (BACE-1), which is responsible for ?-amyloid plaque formation, and hence may be a potentially useful drug in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease."
?-amyloid plaque formation causes irregular ion channel activity and BACE-1 is triggered by cytokine release.
Interesting. Milnacipran's action of BACE-1 inhibition could be one of the reasons why milnacipran stops my brain fog.
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Effects of paroxetine or milnacipran on serum brain-derived neurotrophic factor in depressed patients (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0278584607000954)
Increasing BDNF levels could well be an important part of the puzzle regarding POIS. However, it appears that many different anti-depressants cause serum BDNF levels to increase. Also, in this case, an SSRI (paroxetine) was more effective than an SNRI (milnacipran). Another paper mentioned that fluoxetine (SSRI) was effective, whereas venlafaxine (SNRI) had little effect on BDNF levels.
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Interesting. Milnacipran's action of BACE-1 inhibition could be one of the reasons why milnacipran stops my brain fog.
Note levomilnacipran and not milnacipran, however milnacipran might've still had the same effect. Unfortunately levomilnacipran is the only commercially available BACE-1 inhibitor.
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Interesting. Milnacipran's action of BACE-1 inhibition could be one of the reasons why milnacipran stops my brain fog.
Note levomilnacipran and not milnacipran, however milnacipran might've still had the same effect. Unfortunately levomilnacipran is the only commercially available BACE-1 inhibitor.
That's a good point, Nas. It would be very interesting to know if levomilnacipran stopped my POIS brain fog in the same way as milnacipran.
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I have ordered Milnacipran too. Not available in The Netherlands, so I have to wait a while.
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I have ordered Milnacipran too. Not available in The Netherlands, so I have to wait a while.
Thank you for the update Vandemolen :)
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Oh no, wrong topic. I ordered Pepto Bismal.
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Oh no, wrong topic. I ordered Pepto Bismal.
Easily done, Vandemolen :)
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Here's my theory on why milnacipran might work for pois:
When you O you get all kinds of hormones, bad ones and good ones. I think that our O's aren't intense enough to release enough good hormones. Milnacipran can increase internisity of O's. PE decreases intensity, this is also why I think we get stronger pois if we do it multiple times a day/ week. Because the O is less intense. I have had very few intense O's in my lifetime, but I remember with the ones I did have, I had no pois after. Hope this helps. ;)
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Interesting theory. Perhaps we are dealing with an infection of the prostate and an intense enough orgasm clears it out. Some people with prostatitis milk their prostate rectally to clear all areas of the gland of infection. This also produces an intense orgasm.
I've seen some people on reddit have success with lowering POIS by having multiple orgasms in a short period. Which perhaps accomplishes the same thing.
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Perhaps we are dealing with an infection of the prostate...
Elevated IL-8 in seminal fluid might be a potential marker for that.
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Is it possible it raises norepi in certain parts of the brain more than other parts compared to other SNRI's?
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Here's my theory on why milnacipran might work for pois:
When you O you get all kinds of hormones, bad ones and good ones. I think that our O's aren't intense enough to release enough good hormones. Milnacipran can increase internisity of O's. PE decreases intensity, this is also why I think we get stronger pois if we do it multiple times a day/ week. Because the O is less intense. I have had very few intense O's in my lifetime, but I remember with the ones I did have, I had no pois after. Hope this helps. ;)
That's an interesting theory. I have always experienced fewer POIS symptoms after a strong O, and having Os less often gives me less POIS.
Strength of O affecting POIS has been discussed on here many times - some people say strong is better, others say weak :) But strong is certainly best for me.
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Milnacipran was developed as a cure for fibromyalgia, but it has a secondary use as an antidepressant.
Fibromyalgia ? Neuroinflammatory Disease? Savella ? Anti- Inflammatory Drug?
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2015/10/14/fibromyalgia-neuroinflammatory-disease-savella-anti-inflammatory-drug/
"This oxidative stress could result from glial cell activation, low antioxidant levels, or perhaps most likely ? both. Those isoprostanes then reduce blood flows and oxygen delivery to the brain by constricting the blood vessels in the brain. The low oxygen levels then reduce aerobic energy production and increase anaerobic energy production leading to high lactate levels.
Another hypothesis by Newton suggests that pH handling problems in the muscles could prompt blood vessel constriction and the restriction of blood flows in the brain.
(Low blood flows (ischemia) can also set up the blood vessels for a free radical explosion when more normal blood flows return. Could an ischemic environment contribute to the PEM that occurs when some people with ME/CFS try to concentrate ? and thus send more blood flows to their brain?)"
^ posting those quotes since we had blood flow discussions in the forum some weeks ago. Yes I know that this is about Fibromyalgia not about POIS.
There's some more blogposts here: https://www.healthrising.org/blog/category/treatment/drugs/savella/
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Is it possible it raises norepi in certain parts of the brain more than other parts compared to other SNRI's?
That is certainly a possibility. I don't know if any research has been done with regards to SNRI effects on specific parts of the brain - that would be very interesting.
The most striking difference between the SNRIs seems to involve their potency ratios. The two most popular SNRIs (duloxetine and venlafaxine) have an imbalanced potency ratio which greatly favours serotonin over norepinephrine.
Milnacipran has the most balanced potency ratio for reuptake inhibition of the two neurotransmitters compared with other SNRIs (1:1.6 for milnacipran, 1:10 for duloxetine, and 1:30 for venlafaxine), and in some studies milnacipran has been shown to inhibit norepinephrine uptake with greater potency than serotonin (2.2:1).
This quote seems to imply that you would need to take large doses of venlafaxine in order for it to have a similar effect to low dose milnacipran:
Venlafaxine has a much greater affinity for the 5-HT transporter than for the NE transporter. At low doses, it probably inhibits almost exclusively the 5-HT transporter, acting like a SSRI, with significant NE reuptake inhibition only occurring at higher doses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2938282/
Milnacipran: a unique antidepressant?
Siegfried Kasper and Gerald Pail
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Milnacipran was developed as a cure for fibromyalgia, but it has a secondary use as an antidepressant.
Fibromyalgia ? Neuroinflammatory Disease? Savella ? Anti- Inflammatory Drug?
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2015/10/14/fibromyalgia-neuroinflammatory-disease-savella-anti-inflammatory-drug/
"This oxidative stress could result from glial cell activation, low antioxidant levels, or perhaps most likely ? both. Those isoprostanes then reduce blood flows and oxygen delivery to the brain by constricting the blood vessels in the brain. The low oxygen levels then reduce aerobic energy production and increase anaerobic energy production leading to high lactate levels.
Another hypothesis by Newton suggests that pH handling problems in the muscles could prompt blood vessel constriction and the restriction of blood flows in the brain.
(Low blood flows (ischemia) can also set up the blood vessels for a free radical explosion when more normal blood flows return. Could an ischemic environment contribute to the PEM that occurs when some people with ME/CFS try to concentrate ? and thus send more blood flows to their brain?)"
^ posting those quotes since we had blood flow discussions in the forum some weeks ago. Yes I know that this is about Fibromyalgia not about POIS.
There's some more blogposts here: https://www.healthrising.org/blog/category/treatment/drugs/savella/
The concept of ventricular lactate being a potential biomarker for fibromyaglia is a good one - as you say, what applies to FM may apply to POIS. The scientific study which healthrising.org based its article on is worth reading:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4630071/
An article in Science Daily speculates that lactate (lactic acid) causes the brain to release more norepinephrine:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140211084053.htm
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1038/ncomms4284
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IDK how significant is this but according to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milnacipran): "Recently, levomilnacipran, the levorotatory enantiomer of milnacipran, has been found to act as an inhibitor of beta-site amyloid precursor protein cleaving enzyme-1 (BACE-1), which is responsible for ?-amyloid plaque formation, and hence may be a potentially useful drug in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease."
Beta-amyloid plaque formation causes irregular ion channel activity and BACE-1 is triggered by cytokine release.
From an experimental point of view, I always found Clomid (testosterone booster) to be helpful with my POIS. In fact I am in the process of buying some more, as my supply has almost run out.
I also had some positive experiences with testosterone gel dating back almost 20 years - it was prohibitively expensive back then, but I am sure the costs will have come down since then :)
Testosterone reduces neuronal secretion of Alzheimer's beta-amyloid peptides (https://www.pnas.org/content/97/3/1202.short)
Beta-amyloid plaque formation causes irregular ion channel activity and BACE-1 is triggered by cytokine release.
Irregular ion channel activity (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.msg32239#msg32239)
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That's an interesting theory Muon. The one reservation I would have with it is that beta-amyloid plaque formation takes place over a long time period, whereas testosterone's effect on (future) POIS symptoms is immediate.
These ?-sheets further accumulate and become deposited as plaques. It is not clear how long this entire process takes, but some researchers hypothesize that it occurs over many years.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/beta-amyloid
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Still no brain fog :)
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Do you have any POIS symptoms while using Milnacipran? Did you before?
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Do you have any POIS symptoms while using Milnacipran? Did you before?
In the last 2 months I have been experimenting with taking 25mg doses as opposed to 50mg doses. 25mg works fine for me if taken 1-2 hours before O, but I have twice had relatively mild POIS symptoms when I delayed several hours before O.
Milnacipran has a short half-life of 6-8 hours, so it wears off fairly quickly. For that reason, 50mg doses last longer, but they can also make me feel slightly nauseous.
Properly timed, 25mg has never let me down.
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Properly timed, 25mg has never let me down.
hurray, thanks for this amazing news! You’ve been at it, like me, for MANY, many years!
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hurray, thanks for this amazing news! You’ve been at it, like me, for MANY, many years!
hurray Lab1
Date Registered:
April 02, 2011, 03:12:06 AM
!!!
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Properly timed, 25mg has never let me down.
hurray, thanks for this amazing news! You’ve been at it, like me, for MANY, many years!
Thanks Demo - we have both been battling POIS for a long long time :)
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What dosage did you try first? Straight to 50 mg? The packaging seems to suggest starting much lower but that's if you're going to use it daily.
"Initial dose on day 1: 12.5 mg orally once
-Days 2 and 3: 12.5 mg orally 2 times a day
-Days 4 through 7: 25 mg orally 2 times a day
-After day 7: 50 mg orally 2 times a day"
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What dosage did you try first? Straight to 50 mg? The packaging seems to suggest starting much lower but that's if you're going to use it daily.
"Initial dose on day 1: 12.5 mg orally once
-Days 2 and 3: 12.5 mg orally 2 times a day
-Days 4 through 7: 25 mg orally 2 times a day
-After day 7: 50 mg orally 2 times a day"
I originally ordered 50mg Milza capsules, so that was the first dose I tried. They worked, but they gave me a feeling of nausea. In hindsight, I wish I'd started off with the 25mg capsules that I now order.
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Here is my report about my first trial of Milnacipran.
I took 25 mg and waited 2 hours before O. I have 50mg gel caps so I just opened one and took approximately half the powder. I think this is okay since it's not a time release capsule. I'm glad I didn't take all 50 mg because I did experience some nausea that peaked about an hour after ingestion and quickly dissipated. Not pleasant but not terrible either. My O was through masturbation to an erotic non-nude video.
My normal masturbation involves my body temperature dropping significantly and shivering when viewing highly stimulating erotic material. I don't know if anyone else with POIS experiences this. I get so cold feeling that even under my blankets I will experience shivering, shaking, and teeth chattering. I'm not sure what causes this but it may be due to viewing erotic material and perhaps linked to my POIS, but I'm not sure. Then, right after O, I normally experience a great increase in body temperature. So much so that I am usually sweating and have a difficult time falling asleep because I'm so hot.
With Milnacipran I still felt very cold and shaky before O but unusually I didn't get hot afterwards. I just kind of slowly returned to normal body temperature. This made falling asleep after O very easy.
I did experience a bit of ED at the beginning which is unusual for me normally but not unusual when I take serotonin enhancing substances before O such as Niacin, Niacinamide, 5-HTP, or Tryptophan. So I suspect the extra serotonin from Milnacipran made it a little harder (heh) to obtain an erection.
The mechanics of my orgasm seemed significantly different. As others have mentioned the intensity of the orgasm was higher. I expected that to mean more pleasurable feelings but in my case it just meant much stronger contractions of the muscles involved in ejaculation. It wasn't painful really but it was uncomfortable a little. Usually after I ejaculate my penis loses erection sort of slowly and semen continues to leak out a little for some time after. With Milnacipran I lost my erection almost immediately after the intense ejaculation and to my surprise there was little to no semen leakage afterwards. The muscles in my pelvic floor felt a bit sore afterwards from such contractions.
I slept normally for around 8 hours with my regular highly vivid and unusual dreams. When I woke I felt fine. That's not that unusual since onset of the worst of POIS for me usually takes about 12 hours or so. The test is always after I eat breakfast since that seems to bring out POIS symptoms in me. This time I did feel some anxiety begin after I finished eating a meal of eggs and potatoes. I chalked it up to perhaps the histamine releasing properties of the egg whites. I took some Vitamin C to try and counteract this.
The rest of the day I maintained that low level of anxiety and brain fog which peaked after lunch. I didn't get a ton of brain fog but I definitely did have a little. My normal post orgasm depression was there but not as pronounced, and my irritability seemed much lower than normal. I took some Ashwanganda to try to improve my anxiety and mood and that seemed to work a little. My normal POIS aches and pains seemed almost completely absent. Later I took some curcumin to combat any inflammation that may have been happening. After the curcumin and a quick trip to the tanning salon for some Vitamin D at 5:30pm I felt POIS was almost completely over. I had a surge in energy and went for a long bike ride and a short body weight workout.
Overall I'd rate Milnacipran an 8/10. Very few side effects and very effective. I will use at as my go to treatment from now on. Next time I might try combining it with one, or more, of my other treatments such as anti-histamines, anti-inflammatories, or GABA enhancing substances.
Thanks to hurray for bringing it to our attention!
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Overall I'd rate Milnacipran an 8/10. Very few side effects and very effective. I will use at as my go to treatment from now on. Next time I might try combining it with one, or more, of my other treatments such as anti-histamines, anti-inflammatories, or GABA enhancing substances.
Thanks to hurray for bringing it to our attention!
Glad this worked well for you.
Is there any chance increasing the dose to 50 would be even more beneficial? The nausea can be counteracted with nausea medications, as I used to do with bromocriptine and Levodopa.
Hopefully more people can try this medication and report.
Also drop do you suffer from Premature Ejaculation and did it help with that?
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That's a good idea. I might try some ginger with my next 25 mg dose and if it reduces the nausea significantly I'll try it with 50 mg. I very rarely have PE and Milnacipran didn't seem to extend the time it took for orgasm, other than the delay obtaining an erection.
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That's a good idea. I might try some ginger with my next 25 mg dose and if it reduces the nausea significantly I'll try it with 50 mg. I very rarely have PE and Milnacipran didn't seem to extend the time it took for orgasm, other than the delay obtaining an erection.
How much did it take you to orgasm last time?
Also obviously OTC medications are more effective for nausea than bloody ginger lol.
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Here is my report about my first trial of Milnacipran.
I took 25 mg and waited 2 hours before O. I have 50mg gel caps so I just opened one and took approximately half the powder. I think this is okay since it's not a time release capsule. I'm glad I didn't take all 50 mg because I did experience some nausea that peaked about an hour after ingestion and quickly dissipated. Not pleasant but not terrible either. My O was through masturbation to an erotic non-nude video.
My normal masturbation involves my body temperature dropping significantly and shivering when viewing highly stimulating erotic material. I don't know if anyone else with POIS experiences this. I get so cold feeling that even under my blankets I will experience shivering, shaking, and teeth chattering. I'm not sure what causes this but it may be due to viewing erotic material and perhaps linked to my POIS, but I'm not sure. Then, right after O, I normally experience a great increase in body temperature. So much so that I am usually sweating and have a difficult time falling asleep because I'm so hot.
With Milnacipran I still felt very cold and shaky before O but unusually I didn't get hot afterwards. I just kind of slowly returned to normal body temperature. This made falling asleep after O very easy.
I did experience a bit of ED at the beginning which is unusual for me normally but not unusual when I take serotonin enhancing substances before O such as Niacin, Niacinamide, 5-HTP, or Tryptophan. So I suspect the extra serotonin from Milnacipran made it a little harder (heh) to obtain an erection.
The mechanics of my orgasm seemed significantly different. As others have mentioned the intensity of the orgasm was higher. I expected that to mean more pleasurable feelings but in my case it just meant much stronger contractions of the muscles involved in ejaculation. It wasn't painful really but it was uncomfortable a little. Usually after I ejaculate my penis loses erection sort of slowly and semen continues to leak out a little for some time after. With Milnacipran I lost my erection almost immediately after the intense ejaculation and to my surprise there was little to no semen leakage afterwards. The muscles in my pelvic floor felt a bit sore afterwards from such contractions.
I slept normally for around 8 hours with my regular highly vivid and unusual dreams. When I woke I felt fine. That's not that unusual since onset of the worst of POIS for me usually takes about 12 hours or so. The test is always after I eat breakfast since that seems to bring out POIS symptoms in me. This time I did feel some anxiety begin after I finished eating a meal of eggs and potatoes. I chalked it up to perhaps the histamine releasing properties of the egg whites. I took some Vitamin C to try and counteract this.
The rest of the day I maintained that low level of anxiety and brain fog which peaked after lunch. I didn't get a ton of brain fog but I definitely did have a little. My normal post orgasm depression was there but not as pronounced, and my irritability seemed much lower than normal. I took some Ashwanganda to try to improve my anxiety and mood and that seemed to work a little. My normal POIS aches and pains seemed almost completely absent. Later I took some curcumin to combat any inflammation that may have been happening. After the curcumin and a quick trip to the tanning salon for some Vitamin D at 5:30pm I felt POIS was almost completely over. I had a surge in energy and went for a long bike ride and a short body weight workout.
Overall I'd rate Milnacipran an 8/10. Very few side effects and very effective. I will use at as my go to treatment from now on. Next time I might try combining it with one, or more, of my other treatments such as anti-histamines, anti-inflammatories, or GABA enhancing substances.
Thanks to hurray for bringing it to our attention!
That's excellent news :)
I too had a feeling of nausea after 60-75 minutes when I started taking milnacipran, but after a couple of months of taking it on-demand, the feeling was much weaker.
My normal POIS aches and pains seemed almost completely absent.
Yes, it takes away my mild physical POIS symptoms too.
After the curcumin and a quick trip to the tanning salon for some Vitamin D at 5:30pm I felt POIS was almost completely over. I had a surge in energy and went for a long bike ride and a short body weight workout.
Wow, that's impressive. I don't do too much formal exercise, but I have no problems doing physical activity after O when I use milnacipran.
Thanks for the detailed write-up. Your experiences with milnacipran sound a lot like mine. I'm really happy that milnacipran helped you :)
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As it give strong O, could POIS be due to unfull ejac?
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Due to it's large effect on the mechanics of ejaculation it certainly made me wonder that. A few ideas I came up with:
1. We have a high amounts of bacteria in the prostate that the intense contractions help clear out
2. We have a problem with semen flowing backwards and into the bladder causing a reaction
3. We have an allergy or intolerance of seminal fluid and the intense contractions helps to flush it out of the body more completely
Of course none of these could be correct and it is simply the neurotransmitter effects of the drug providing relief.
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Nice to see this about milnacipran
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From my topic:
Today I have discovered new thing! I had no POIS since 2 months and today first time in my life I put on a glove and looked for a prostate. I touched, but didn't massage too much. I did it delicately, but after that I felt a slight burning sensation around my penis (last months I had no sympoms of prostatis, but of course touching prostate can make little irritate, so that`s normal) . But know the most important thing - few hours later I felt 30% POIS (but only brainfog, irritation and intellectual decline, no body pain). I think touching my prostate cased moving fluid in that area (but no leakage to the outside) and then has arisen inflammation (without pain). Maybe many of you have bacteria inflammation and don`t know about it. I have taken 2 pills of drotaverine (probably is not as good as Prednisone but it`s the only thing I have) and now my brainfog is much smaller. I think I made an mistake touching prostate not being in POIS. I should make it (better drainage) only when I`m after sex (the prostate is anyway irritated so after sex probably I'm not losing anything by massaging prostate). Anyway, good to know that there such a strange mechanism (maybe not the only one, but definitely contributing) causing my POIS. Now all make sense. Maybe that`s because people have good result after using Prednisone (reducing inflammation) and milnacipran (affecting the effective removal of secretions outside), even magnesium (making good perineal muscles action).
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To the guys that confirmed Milnacipran works for them:
* Do you drink coffee daily? (chronic consumption) (or high amount of cola, energy drinks etc)
* Do you smoke? (or other forms of nicotine)
* Anything else that messes with Neurotransmitters?
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No coffee or caffeine for me. I makes me feel too anxious and strung out and gives me absolutely terrible silent reflux. No smoking or street drugs either. Though I did use marijuana almost daily for about 10 years, though I haven't touched it in more than 3 years.
I did another trial of 25 mg Milnacipran. This time with 10 mg of Loratadine along with it about 2 hours before O. I thought I felt POIS coming on before I went to sleep after O, but when I woke the next morning I had basically no symptoms (besides a bit of grogginess from the Loratadine). POIS symptoms didn't seem to come on much at all (if they did it was less than 10% of my previous untreated POIS). I might try Milnacipran with a less powerful anti-histamine like Fexofenadine next time just to avoid the grogginess side effect.
A weird thing happened later though. Due to some upcoming hormonal profile blood work I wanted to induce a regular POIS state, to see what my hormones are like while in full blown POIS. So I had an O without any pre-treatment. No Milnacipran or anti-histamines. No supplements at all actually. To my surprise my POIS while untreated was extremely mild. Just a bit of back pain, minor brain fog, and minor anxiety. By 5:00 pm the next day I was practically back to normal (less than 24 hours after O). Usually my POIS is 7 days of awful symptoms. I barely want to get out of bed for the first 3 days. I can barely think, I don't want to see or hear anyone, and I'm in aching body pains.
That O was at least 3 days since my last Milnacipran dosing. I've only taken it twice in my life. Is it possible it was still providing some protection? Is two doses enough to provide lasting effects on my neurotransmitter levels? Or is it possible that two strong orgasms that I had has done something to help clear a possible infection in my prostate? This O was completely normal in terms of physical action. Not elevated intensity in physical strength.
I did notice a weird symptom in my perineum area after that last untreated orgasm. A bit of an itching feeling inside my body on the left side and back towards my anus. I've felt this itching sensation before during the last 10 years, but it's always on my right side and near the very front of my perineum near where the vas deferens enters my body. It usually happens when I haven't O'd in a long time. So it was weird to have the same sensation in a different area. Maybe it was just a fluke but I'll report back if I notice any such feeling again.
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No smoking or caffeine for me either, Berlin.
That's very interesting indeed, drop247. Since I started using milnacipran, I've always taken it before O. I have no wish to suffer from POIS if I can possibly avoid it :) I always assumed that milnacipran's effects on POIS would be in line with the stated half-life of 8 hours or so.
I've noticed that a 25mg dose becomes less effective after several hours, but I can still feel an "afterglow" effect a day or so later. I'm pretty sure it's cleared my system after 3 days, though.
Then again, I have been taking it on demand for a number of months now, so perhaps my body has built up some tolerance to it by now. It may be that at the start, the milnacipran worked for much longer. I don't feel nausea even after a 50mg dose now, but I definitely did when I first started taking it.
Is it possible it was still providing some protection? Is two doses enough to provide lasting effects on my neurotransmitter levels? Or is it possible that two strong orgasms that I had has done something to help clear a possible infection in my prostate? This O was completely normal in terms of physical action. Not elevated intensity in physical strength.
Good questions :) I like your theories regarding how milnacpiran-induced strong contractions could be preventing our POIS symptoms. Is there a link between a possible prostate infection and POIS/O that you know of?
Thanks for another good report, I look forward to hearing more.
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A case study whose subject found relief with Milnacipran both with premature ejaculation und postcoital headaches. Took 50mg, and tried a beta blocker and indomethacin without success.
Mushnikk, not sure I understand. Did you try it too or did you cite that from somewhere?
If you tried it too: What's your consumption of coffee/nicotine/alcohol etc?
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A case study whose subject found relief with Milnacipran both with premature ejaculation und postcoital headaches. Took 50mg, and tried a beta blocker and indomethacin without success.
Mushnikk, not sure I understand. Did you try it too or did you cite that from somewhere?
If you tried it too: What's your consumption of coffee/nicotine/alcohol etc?
I think Mushnikk found that case study from here:
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Citation/2019/10000/Milnacipran_for_Postcoital_Cephalgia_and_Premature.37.aspx
As far as I'm aware, only myself and drop247 have tried milnacipran so far from this forum. It is not commonly used in most countries, making it difficult to obtain.
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I will put that paper in the POIS paper thread. If you see interesting papers just dump them in the comment section. I think it's the anti-inflammatory property of the stuff that's doing the job. Posted a paper earlier about that here. TNF-alpha is associated with headache. They don't mention the duration of the headache.
It would be interesting to see if Heather responds to Milnacipran since she responds to testosterone just like hurray does.
Milnacipran Dose-Effect Study in Patients With Burning Mouth Syndrome (https://journals.lww.com/clinicalneuropharm/Abstract/2011/07000/Milnacipran_Dose_Effect_Study_in_Patients_With.8.aspx)
https://youtu.be/lrKqlv6VK_w?t=839
MCAS can manifest itself as burning mouth syndrome. Does Milnacipran targets mast cells or their mediators? And does it work for some POISers because mast cells are involved in POIS?
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I will put that paper in the POIS paper thread. If you see interesting papers just dump them in the comment section. I think it's the anti-inflammatory property of the stuff that's doing the job. Posted a paper earlier about that here. TNF-alpha is associated with headache. They don't mention the duration of the headache.
It would be interesting to see if Heather responds to Milnacipran since she responds to testosterone just like hurray does.
Milnacipran Dose-Effect Study in Patients With Burning Mouth Syndrome (https://journals.lww.com/clinicalneuropharm/Abstract/2011/07000/Milnacipran_Dose_Effect_Study_in_Patients_With.8.aspx)
https://youtu.be/lrKqlv6VK_w?t=839
MCAS can manifest itself as burning mouth syndrome. Does Milnacipran targets mast cells or their mediators? And does it work for some POISers because mast cells are involved in POIS?
Thanks Muon. Interesting that burning mouth syndrome can be caused by MCAS.
I would say that there is a strong possibility that milnacipran's anti-inflammatory properties could be preventing MCAS. A study from June 2020 shows that milnacipran suppresses MPO activity and inflammatory mediators:
Anti-inflammatory and anti-hyperalgesic effects of milnacipran in inflamed rats: involvement of myeloperoxidase activity, cytokines and oxidative/nitrosative stress
milnacipran analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects were at least in part exerted through its suppression of MPO activity and inflammatory mediators, such as IL-1?, IL-6 and TNF-?. Carrageenan triggers neutrophil recruitment and MPO activity, and activates the cytokines production, including IL-1?, IL-6 and TNF-?, which are accountable for inflammation and pain
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1007/s10787-020-00726-2
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Some of these cytokines are elevated in the brain of FM patients and can downregulate testosterone as well. I dumped some of these FM papers here: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3207.msg35317#msg35317
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Some of these cytokines are elevated in the brain of FM patients and can downregulate testosterone as well. I dumped some of these FM papers here: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3207.msg35317#msg35317
It would not surprise me if testosterone levels turned out to be an important part of the POIS puzzle that we are trying to solve. Prior to milnacipran, clomid (which increases testosterone amongst other things) was one of the few things that genuinely helped with my POIS.
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Some of these cytokines are elevated in the brain of FM patients and can downregulate testosterone as well. I dumped some of these FM papers here: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3207.msg35317#msg35317
It would not surprise me if testosterone levels turned out to be an important part of the POIS puzzle that we are trying to solve. Prior to milnacipran, clomid (which increases testosterone amongst other things) was one of the few things that genuinely helped with my POIS.
POIS=lower hormones cuz cytokine?
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Also cross-posted at Testosterone thread.
It would not surprise me if testosterone levels turned out to be an important part of the POIS puzzle that we are trying to solve.
Interesting, hurray!
Back in 2008, your quote above was also the firm conclusion of Czech sexologist Dr Petr Weiss, who was adamant with me on the telephone that I “needed testosterone”. I was skeptical (almost zero POIS studies were done back then!), but I was desperate, so I simply went along with his theorizing (“why not?”) and...got lucky with TRT for POIS!
(https://english.radio.cz/sites/default/files/styles/twitter/public/images/weiss_petr.jpg?itok=g6OkwxQ0)
Dr Petr Weiss
Professor (Full)
Charles University
Prague, Czech Republic
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Here is some data on hormones:
Testosterone
"The global prevalence of testosterone deficiency (TD) ranges from 10-40%."
-Testosterone deficiency in adults and corresponding treatment patterns across the globe (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5422691/)
--14 of us showing normal testosterone levels (BluesBrother (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg33828#msg33828), nanna1 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052), Nas, Attia POIS Study (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27145#msg27145), Starsky (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3267.msg33937#msg33937), coal (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27246#msg27246), Vandemolen (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25508#msg25508), CertainlyPOIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438#msg25438), fernab, Morgentaler POIS Study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221444201930453X?fbclid=IwAR141vgIvBqRmEQQ6ohjbqO8SrhZ16Vo2xgIKfj1dY-laV5fN3Q_yFHvT_c), demografx (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25442;topicseen#msg25442), Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995#msg24995), Clues (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3202.msg34002#msg34002), mardi (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3267.msg35201#msg35201)).
--3 of us showing low testosterone (Quotz, Kim POIS Study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050116118300199#tblS1), jakov, EDS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25436#msg25436)).
Cortisol
--6 of us show normal cortisol (fernab (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27801;topicseen#msg27801), coal (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27246;topicseen#msg27246), POIS case study(2016) (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27145;topicseen#msg27145), CertainlyPOIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438;topicseen#msg25438), Martin88 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438;topicseen#msg25438), Jferr (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25437;topicseen#msg25437)
--4 of us show high cortisol: jakov (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27828;topicseen#msg27828), Nas (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25940;topicseen#msg25940), Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995;topicseen#msg24995), quotz (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24642;topicseen#msg24642)
--Cortisol test timed after orgasm (2 decreased): EDS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25436;topicseen#msg25436), Crushgrapes (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25429;topicseen#msg25429)
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--Cortisol test timed after orgasm (2 decreased): EDS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25436;topicseen#msg25436), Crushgrapes (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25429;topicseen#msg25429)
I wonder whether parameters in general go down post-orgasm. People who have timed any test prior and post orgasm should check their data to see if it drops down even when both values fall within reference range.
Cortisol
--6 of us show normal cortisol (fernab (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27801;topicseen#msg27801), coal (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27246;topicseen#msg27246), POIS case study(2016) (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27145;topicseen#msg27145), CertainlyPOIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438;topicseen#msg25438), Martin88 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438;topicseen#msg25438), Jferr (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25437;topicseen#msg25437)
--4 of us show high cortisol: jakov (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27828;topicseen#msg27828), Nas (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25940;topicseen#msg25940), Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995;topicseen#msg24995), quotz (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24642;topicseen#msg24642)
Btw CertainlyPOIS shows normal cortisol but elevated ACTH (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24532#msg24532). Same for Martin88, normal cortisol and elevated ACTH.
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Also cross-posted at Testosterone thread.
It would not surprise me if testosterone levels turned out to be an important part of the POIS puzzle that we are trying to solve.
Interesting, hurray!
Back in 2008, your quote above was also the firm conclusion of Czech sexologist Dr Petr Weiss, who was adamant with me on the telephone that I “needed testosterone”. I was skeptical (almost zero POIS studies were done back then!), but I was desperate, so I simply went along with his theorizing (“why not?”) and...got lucky with TRT for POIS!
Thanks for sharing that information Demo :) It shows that there are medical professionals out there who take POIS seriously - I think many of us at some time have spoken to a doctor who dismissed our POIS symptoms, or recommended we visit a psychiatrist >:(
I wonder if Dr Petr Weiss is still practising medicine, and if he has followed the development of POIS research?
-
Here is some data on hormones:
Testosterone
"The global prevalence of testosterone deficiency (TD) ranges from 10-40%."
-Testosterone deficiency in adults and corresponding treatment patterns across the globe (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5422691/)
--14 of us showing normal testosterone levels (BluesBrother (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg33828#msg33828), nanna1 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052), Nas, Attia POIS Study (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27145#msg27145), Starsky (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3267.msg33937#msg33937), coal (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27246#msg27246), Vandemolen (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25508#msg25508), CertainlyPOIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438#msg25438), fernab, Morgentaler POIS Study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221444201930453X?fbclid=IwAR141vgIvBqRmEQQ6ohjbqO8SrhZ16Vo2xgIKfj1dY-laV5fN3Q_yFHvT_c), demografx (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25442;topicseen#msg25442), Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995#msg24995), Clues (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3202.msg34002#msg34002), mardi (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3267.msg35201#msg35201)).
--3 of us showing low testosterone (Quotz, Kim POIS Study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050116118300199#tblS1), jakov, EDS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25436#msg25436)).
Cortisol
--6 of us show normal cortisol (fernab (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27801;topicseen#msg27801), coal (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27246;topicseen#msg27246), POIS case study(2016) (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27145;topicseen#msg27145), CertainlyPOIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438;topicseen#msg25438), Martin88 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438;topicseen#msg25438), Jferr (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25437;topicseen#msg25437)
--4 of us show high cortisol: jakov (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27828;topicseen#msg27828), Nas (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25940;topicseen#msg25940), Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995;topicseen#msg24995), quotz (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24642;topicseen#msg24642)
--Cortisol test timed after orgasm (2 decreased): EDS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25436;topicseen#msg25436), Crushgrapes (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25429;topicseen#msg25429)
Interesting data, nanna, thank you for posting it.
I'm slightly surprised that there weren't more people with low testosterone, but as Muon points out:
I wonder whether parameters in general go down post-orgasm. People who have timed any test prior and post orgasm should check their data to see if it drops down even when both values fall within reference range.
In your thread "Neuroendocrine responses to arousal and orgasm" you gathered together data from several different studies, including graphs showing plasma testosterone and cortisol levels before and after orgasm:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2900.0
It would be fascinating to have the same kind of data for a group of POIS sufferers (before and after).
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Also cross-posted at Testosterone thread.
It would not surprise me if testosterone levels turned out to be an important part of the POIS puzzle that we are trying to solve.
Interesting, hurray!
Back in 2008, your quote above was also the firm conclusion of Czech sexologist Dr Petr Weiss, who was adamant with me on the telephone that I “needed testosterone”. I was skeptical (almost zero POIS studies were done back then!), but I was desperate, so I simply went along with his theorizing (“why not?”) and...got lucky with TRT for POIS!
Thanks for sharing that information Demo :) It shows that there are medical professionals out there who take POIS seriously - I think many of us at some time have spoken to a doctor who dismissed our POIS symptoms, or recommended we visit a psychiatrist >:(
I wonder if Dr Petr Weiss is still practising medicine, and if he has followed the development of POIS research?
hurray, Dr Weiss is a PhD sexologist, not an MD.
I sent him our posts earlier today and he acknowledged and appreciated them.
If anyone wishes to contact him, send me a message!
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What receptors have affinity for milnacipran? Is there a list somewhere?
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What receptors have affinity for milnacipran? Is there a list somewhere?
The only receptor listed on drugbank.com is NMDA:
https://go.drugbank.com/drugs/DB04896
Milnacipran inhibits glutamatergic N-Methyl-D-Aspartate receptor activity in Spinal Dorsal Horn Neurons
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407012/
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Role of inflammation in the pathogenesis and treatment of fibromyalgia (https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s00296-019-04251-6)
" Milnacipran, a dual reuptake inhibitor, acts its therapeutic effect partly by targeting glial activation and thereby inhibiting neuroinflammation."
Glial cells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glia)
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In your thread "Neuroendocrine responses to arousal and orgasm" you gathered together data from several different studies, including graphs showing plasma testosterone and cortisol levels before and after orgasm:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2900.0
It would be fascinating to have the same kind of data for a group of POIS sufferers (before and after).
A before and after testosterone test for one POIS patient was tested in 2013.
POSTORGASMIC ILLNESS SYNDROME: A CASE FROM PRACTICE (2013) (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=uk&u=http://www.irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe%3FC21COM%3D2%26I21DBN%3DUJRN%26P21DBN%3DUJRN%26IMAGE_FILE_DOWNLOAD%3D1%26Image_file_name%3DPDF/Msps_2013_18_4_21.pdf&prev=search&pto=aue)
by Kryzhanovsky ID
(https://i.imgur.com/Hw5DWhl.png)
I updated the testosterone list to reflect this:
Testosterone
"The global prevalence of testosterone deficiency (TD) ranges from 10-40%."
-Testosterone deficiency in adults and corresponding treatment patterns across the globe (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5422691/)
--16 of us showing normal testosterone levels (BluesBrother (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg33828#msg33828), nanna1 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24052#msg24052), Nas, Attia POIS Study (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27145#msg27145), Starsky (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3267.msg33937#msg33937), coal (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27246#msg27246), Vandemolen (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25508#msg25508), CertainlyPOIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438#msg25438), fernab, Morgentaler POIS Study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221444201930453X?fbclid=IwAR141vgIvBqRmEQQ6ohjbqO8SrhZ16Vo2xgIKfj1dY-laV5fN3Q_yFHvT_c), Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995#msg24995), Clues (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3202.msg34002#msg34002), mardi (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3267.msg35201#msg35201), drop247 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg36516#msg36516), Kryzhanovsky POIS study (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg36648#msg36648)).
--4 of us showing low testosterone (Quotz, Kim POIS Study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050116118300199#tblS1), jakov, EDS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25436#msg25436)).
--Testosterone test timed before and after orgasm (1 decreased): Kryzhanovsky POIS study (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg36648#msg36648)
Cortisol
--6 of us show normal cortisol (fernab (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27801;topicseen#msg27801), coal (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27246;topicseen#msg27246), POIS case study(2016) (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27145;topicseen#msg27145), CertainlyPOIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438;topicseen#msg25438), Martin88 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25438;topicseen#msg25438), Jferr (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25437;topicseen#msg25437))
--4 of us show high cortisol: jakov (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg27828;topicseen#msg27828), Nas (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25940;topicseen#msg25940), Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995;topicseen#msg24995), quotz (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24642;topicseen#msg24642)
--Cortisol test timed before and after orgasm (2 decreased): EDS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25436;topicseen#msg25436), Crushgrapes (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg25429;topicseen#msg25429)
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nanna1, my testosterone pre-treatment was low. It’s only “normal” with TRT.
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Sorry Demo, I only see your normal results on "Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results". I'll remove your name from the list. If you post the numbers for your testosterone levels before TRT, please let me know.
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It was done in 2008. No diary available.
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The minerals in Kryzhanovsky's paper that show abnomal levels haven't been explored, before and after. It's a paper from 2013 and it's 2020 now. You can tell how thoroughly researchers are investigating this. I recall that Ironfeather measured iron in and out of POIS which was abnormal. Clues got elevated calcium.
"Geiser et al. [13] reported that IL-8 and GRO proteins were active toward basophils as indicated by chemotaxis and intracellular calcium changes in concentration."
Jiang, N., Xi, G., Li, H., & Yin, J. (2015). Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS) in a Chinese Man: No Proof for IgE-Mediated Allergy to Semen. (https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/jsm.12813)
Again this paper is from 2015, didn't learn anything from the 2013 paper above and is the only paper that mentioned mast cell activation other than via IgE sensitive receptors.
Papers published after Jiang didn't do anything with the theories of Jiang that can be found in his discussion. And it's 2020 now, 5 years later.
What a joke.
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A before and after testosterone test for one POIS patient was tested in 2013.
POSTORGASMIC ILLNESS SYNDROME: A CASE FROM PRACTICE (2013) (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=uk&u=http://www.irbis-nbuv.gov.ua/cgi-bin/irbis_nbuv/cgiirbis_64.exe%3FC21COM%3D2%26I21DBN%3DUJRN%26P21DBN%3DUJRN%26IMAGE_FILE_DOWNLOAD%3D1%26Image_file_name%3DPDF/Msps_2013_18_4_21.pdf&prev=search&pto=aue)
by Kryzhanovsky ID
(https://i.imgur.com/Hw5DWhl.png)
Good find - that shows a substantial drop of free testosterone, although still within the reference range.
Some of the figures in that table look a little strange:
(https://i.ibb.co/wQDvK3X/Capture.png) (https://ibb.co/ZgyZhtP)
It seems unlikely that all those readings would be identical both before and after? You would expect a slight variance in the readings from any two samples taken at different times.
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nanna1, my testosterone pre-treatment was low. It’s only “normal” with TRT.
Sorry Demo, I only see your normal results on "Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results". I'll remove your name from the list. If you post the numbers for your testosterone levels before TRT, please let me know.
It was done in 2008. No diary available.
If anyone is interested in my pre-POIS-treatment testosterone results, I posted 5,000 times @ https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;f=outbox
so the results might be found there or with Google.
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Link doesn't work Demo. It redirects me to the login screen.
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Link doesn't work Demo. It redirects me to the login screen.
Yes, Muon, that’s the NSF login screen. In my preceding post, I’m suggesting the search can be done
• at Naked Science Forum as a member (many POISCenter members are also NSF members)
• at Google
Sorry for the confusion.
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Role of inflammation in the pathogenesis and treatment of fibromyalgia (https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/s00296-019-04251-6)
" Milnacipran, a dual reuptake inhibitor, acts its therapeutic effect partly by targeting glial activation and thereby inhibiting neuroinflammation."
Glial cells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glia)
Thanks for that Muon, that's more evidence showing that milnacipran can play an anti-inflammatory role.
"Mast cells, glia and neuroinflammation: partners in crime?"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930370/
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If anyone is interested in my pre-POIS-treatment testosterone results, I posted 5,000 times @ https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?action=pm;f=outbox
so the results might be found there or with Google.
There's a lot of really useful information on the old forum :) It takes a bit more digging to find things, but it's worth it.
Here's page 1:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.0
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Thanks, hurray!
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You could test this hurray:
Glia and Mast Cells as Targets for Palmitoylethanolamide, an Anti-inflammatory and Neuroprotective Lipid Mediator (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12035-013-8487-6)
Clinical studies demonstrating efficacy of palmitoylethanolamide:
(https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/350167/fncel-12-00072-HTML/image_m/fncel-12-00072-t003.jpg)
Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5871676/)
I bet fibromyalgia is probably mast cell and/or glia driven low grade chronic inflammation.
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Palmitoylethanolamide sounds like it has good potential, Muon. However, to see if it worked for POIS, I would have to stop taking milnacipran temporarily, otherwise I would have no way of know if palmitoylethanolamide was effective or not.
I'm not keen on risking another POIS episode :)
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Fair enough hurray.
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I recently started seeing a psychiatrist and I asked him about milnacipran. He said that it could be a good option for me down the line as an adjunct to my current medication bupropion, which has helped my depression but done nothing for my POIS. So I expect to be able to trial milnacipran in a few months and add some more data here! I have had fairly good responses to various drugs in the past, namely adderall, caffeine, and nicotine, so it seems fairly plausible that the medication route is promising for me.
Hurray, I have looked through your history and think our POIS cases are almost identical, which is one reason I am so interested in trying this medication. I too have predominantly cognitive symptoms - my sole physical symptom is hives during sex/masturbation (and possibly slight muscle weakness) - and struggle with social situations during POIS. My social issues were what led to me identifying my POIS, and would probably be my most debilitating symptoms if I wasn't in a particularly intellectually demanding job.
I find it interesting that the effects of milnacipran on your POIS are acute - most antidepressants take weeks to months to take effect. Milnacipran, from my research seems to be faster-acting (on the order of one week). This is still a far cry from most drugs taken for acute effects, like adderall. Pharmacology is weird though, and we barely understand how any of these drugs work. So maybe we shoudn't overthink things :). I wonder if daily milnacipran use would nullify the effects on POIS? I still have moderate brain fog some of the time outside of POIS, so I may have to try this.
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I recently started seeing a psychiatrist and I asked him about milnacipran. He said that it could be a good option for me down the line as an adjunct to my current medication bupropion, which has helped my depression but done nothing for my POIS. So I expect to be able to trial milnacipran in a few months and add some more data here! I have had fairly good responses to various drugs in the past, namely adderall, caffeine, and nicotine, so it seems fairly plausible that the medication route is promising for me.
Hurray, I have looked through your history and think our POIS cases are almost identical, which is one reason I am so interested in trying this medication. I too have predominantly cognitive symptoms - my sole physical symptom is hives during sex/masturbation (and possibly slight muscle weakness) - and struggle with social situations during POIS. My social issues were what led to me identifying my POIS, and would probably be my most debilitating symptoms if I wasn't in a particularly intellectually demanding job.
I find it interesting that the effects of milnacipran on your POIS are acute - most antidepressants take weeks to months to take effect. Milnacipran, from my research seems to be faster-acting (on the order of one week). This is still a far cry from most drugs taken for acute effects, like adderall. Pharmacology is weird though, and we barely understand how any of these drugs work. So maybe we shoudn't overthink things :). I wonder if daily milnacipran use would nullify the effects on POIS? I still have moderate brain fog some of the time outside of POIS, so I may have to try this.
Hi, LookingForACure.
When I have taken sertraline (an SSRI) in the past, the effects gradually increased for about 2 weeks before stabilizing. Milnacipran, however, acts very quickly for me, and I think the same is true for drop247 who has posted some detailed reports of his own milnacipran use in this thread. As you say, there are a lot of unknowns regarding the pharmacology of certain drugs :)
It's encouraging that your symptoms are close to mine - it would hopefully increase the probability that milnacipran would help with your POIS too. Like you, I really struggle socially when I am in POIS. It is a tremendous relief to not have to deal with that any more.
Milnacipran is quite difficult to get hold of in most countries - if you are in the US, you may be able to get Savella on prescription (but it's expensive!), and some European countries prescribe Ixel. I use an Indian generic version of milnacipran called Milza.
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Hi, LookingForACure.
When I have taken sertraline (an SSRI) in the past, the effects gradually increased for about 2 weeks before stabilizing. Milnacipran, however, acts very quickly for me, and I think the same is true for drop247 who has posted some detailed reports of his own milnacipran use in this thread. As you say, there are a lot of unknowns regarding the pharmacology of certain drugs :)
It's encouraging that your symptoms are close to mine - it would hopefully increase the probability that milnacipran would help with your POIS too. Like you, I really struggle socially when I am in POIS. It is a tremendous relief to not have to deal with that any more.
Milnacipran is quite difficult to get hold of in most countries - if you are in the US, you may be able to get Savella on prescription (but it's expensive!), and some European countries prescribe Ixel. I use an Indian generic version of milnacipran called Milza.
I am hopeful! Milnacipran is expensive, and does not seem to be FDA approved for depression, which is my diagnosis. As a result, insurance likely will not cover it. However, I will pay any amount of money for relief from POIS. My lost earning potential alone from this disease is staggering, even ignoring the misery of dealing with it.
Drop247, I see that you have experienced significant but not complete relief from your POIS - have you considered trying a higher dose, such as 50 mg?
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Don't order from https://aipctshop.com/ its been six weeks now and still haven't received, the tracking never worked at all and they said it could be lost and now have reshipped a new package for me but I don't know if this is true or not... Either way its pretty frustrating
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Don't order from https://aipctshop.com/ its been six weeks now and still haven't received, the tracking never worked at all and they said it could be lost and now have reshipped a new package for me but I don't know if this is true or not... Either way its pretty frustrating
That's pretty disappointing, Iwillbeatthis, sorry to hear about your experience.
I placed a first order with that pharmacy last month to see if they were any good. My usual pharmacy was out of stock of milnacipran. A week later, I got a letter from Parcelforce asking me to pay a customs charge. I was very surprised that it arrived so quickly, other orders have taken considerably longer. The pharmacy charged me $30 for "Express Mail", so maybe that's why.
I wasn't very happy about the customs charge, but I logged onto Parcelforce's site and paid it, and the parcel arrived shortly afterwards. I haven't tried the milnacipran they sent me yet, so I can't comment on that.
I'd guess that they will send a second parcel out as promised. I had a parcel from a different pharmacy take 2 months earlier this year - however, I had a proper tracking number from them, so I knew what was happening. The best case scenario is that you may end up with two parcels :)
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Don't order from https://aipctshop.com/ its been six weeks now and still haven't received, the tracking never worked at all and they said it could be lost and now have reshipped a new package for me but I don't know if this is true or not... Either way its pretty frustrating
Yup, another cargo company totally xxxxxxx up an important delivery and you can't even get your money back.
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Don't order from https://aipctshop.com/ its been six weeks now and still haven't received, the tracking never worked at all and they said it could be lost and now have reshipped a new package for me but I don't know if this is true or not... Either way its pretty frustrating
My tracking from them through USPS says its in newyork going through customs. My order was about three weeks ago. I ordered two months worth I hope customs don't get suspicious. There is insurance in the shipping pay, did they give you new tracking. It was a pain trying to use bitcoin to pay them.
When they did not send my order right away, they were pretty responsive in telling me that they can send it right away if I converted my order to all 50 mg, since there was a shortage of 25 mg.
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Hurray, what is the name of the pharmacy they sent you.
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Don't order from https://aipctshop.com/ its been six weeks now and still haven't received, the tracking never worked at all and they said it could be lost and now have reshipped a new package for me but I don't know if this is true or not... Either way its pretty frustrating
My tracking from them through USPS says its in newyork going through customs. My order was about three weeks ago. I ordered two months worth I hope customs don't get suspicious. There is insurance in the shipping pay, did they give you new tracking. It was a pain trying to use bitcoin to pay them.
When they did not send my order right away, they were pretty responsive in telling me that they can send it right away if I converted my order to all 50 mg, since there was a shortage of 25 mg.
No they said they would send me new tracking a few days ago but I still haven't received it. Anyway guess what I checked my old tracking and it finally works and it says it was only collected in india on the 3rd of october..... Which means they must have created a postage label but never gave the item to the carrier for all this time... So they are liars screw this company
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Don't order from https://aipctshop.com/ its been six weeks now and still haven't received, the tracking never worked at all and they said it could be lost and now have reshipped a new package for me but I don't know if this is true or not... Either way its pretty frustrating
My tracking from them through USPS says its in newyork going through customs. My order was about three weeks ago. I ordered two months worth I hope customs don't get suspicious. There is insurance in the shipping pay, did they give you new tracking. It was a pain trying to use bitcoin to pay them.
When they did not send my order right away, they were pretty responsive in telling me that they can send it right away if I converted my order to all 50 mg, since there was a shortage of 25 mg.
No they said they would send me new tracking a few days ago but I still haven't received it. Anyway guess what I checked my old tracking and it finally works and it says it was only collected in india on the 3rd of october..... Which means they must have created a postage label but never gave the item to the carrier for all this time... So they are liars screw this company
Sounds like they messed up and weren't honest about it. Not good. They may still send you what you paid for, but you are unlikely to trust them again.
I was lucky enough to receive a parcel from them quickly (albeit with customs charges), but I haven't tried the milnacipran they sent me yet. I hope that they sort your delivery out quickly.
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Hurray, what is the name of the pharmacy they sent you.
Hi certainlypois2, I've sent you a PM :)
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Hurray, what is the name of the pharmacy they sent you.
They sent me a generic version of milnacipran called "Milna". The product they normally sell (Milnace) was out of stock, so they emailed me and asked me if I would accept a different brand. I agreed.
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nanna1, my testosterone pre-treatment was low. It’s only “normal” with TRT.
My testosterone is normal too now. No treatment. Just sports, more walking, eating more meat and more sun.
milnacipran can not be bought in The Netherlands. Because they say there is no proof it works.
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nanna1, my testosterone pre-treatment was low. It’s only “normal” with TRT.
My testosterone is normal too now. No treatment. Just sports, more walking, eating more meat and more sun.
milnacipran can not be bought in The Netherlands. Because they say there is no proof it works.
Exercise is a great way to get your testosterone back to normal. I always feel better after doing even moderate exercise.
Wikipedia says that milnacipran has been approved in 45 countries:
Milnacipran was first approved for the treatment of major depressive episodes in France in December 1996. It is currently marketed (as Ixel) for this indication in over 45 countries worldwide including several European countries such as Austria, Bulgaria, Finland, France, Portugal, and Russia. It is also available in Japan (as Toledomin) and Mexico (as Dalcipran). Cypress Bioscience bought the exclusive rights for approval and marketing of the drug for any purpose in the United States and Canada in 2003 from the manufacturer Laboratoires Pierre Fabre.
In January 2009 the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved milnacipran (under the brand name Savella) only for the treatment of fibromyalgia, making it the third medication approved for this purpose in the United States. In July and November 2009, the European Medicines Agency refused marketing authorization for a milnacipran product (under the brand name Impulsor) for the treatment of fibromylagia.
As the above text indicates, the US approves it for treatment of fibromyalglia, whilst Europe approves it for depression. The issue of which countries approve which medicines for which illnesses is complex, and subject to change pending further research :)
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hurray, very interesting!
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It's is here, My trial is going to test effect on constant brain fog. I will increase from lower dosage until dosage that helps me.
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Careful, CP2!
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Careful, CP2!
I will, I found some papers that describe a step up plan.
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My milnacipran finally came today but it came in 50mg and not 25mg like i ordered. Its harder to split these pills as they have no half line indented on them.
I took 25mg and went for a walk to run some errands I felt a bit foggy and anxious probably left over from a bad reaction to a shower two nights ago and a one off h2 blocker pill which seems to have disrupted things in my brain. Then I did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp8KPPffIJw&list=LLssezxBSGnlfJlWT0RMN1AQ&index=3&t=240s assisted quad PNF for the PSOAS and inner hip/quad muscles as that area has become extremely tight recently, I always get relief in my head from this one exercise I recommend it highly.
It feels the same as amitrptyline and hordenine to me but I guess this will be better than hordenine as it has serotonin which will stop dopamine build up.
I just tried an O now with it, taking it 1 hour 15 mins before and combined with deep breathing and elevating my pelvis with pillow. I had facial and chest flushing and darkness around eyes from the O. The O contraction was much stronger and I also felt more prostate emptying however it wasn't more pleasurable for me this time and was quite short. I have a more delayed POIS so I will update if I get symptoms or not.
I haven't O'd for over a month and my libido is extremely low despite doing weight lifting and taking testosterone supplements, I also haven't been able to get an erection for the last week even when watching porn once.
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Thank you for posting your report, Iwillbeatthis.
It's interesting that you had strong contractions - me and drop247 experienced the same effect. I'm looking forward to hearing your next report, and hearing if your delayed POIS symptoms have improved.
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Careful, CP2!
I will, I found some papers that describe a step up plan.
Happy to hear! :)
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Iwillbeatthis
Is it safe to assume Milnacipran did not work for you?
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Iwillbeatthis
Is it safe to assume Milnacipran did not work for you?
First time I tried I had a little brain fog and speech problems but it was an unfair experiment as I wasn't feeling that great already from ranitidine and a shower two days before which messed with my functioning and brain fog. I had numbness on my face and tingling on my scalp but none of the burning brain fog. It seemed I got these symptoms around 6 hours after taking. The next day I woke up feeling a bit groggy I took a milnacripan and clomid then i felt fine.
Second time I tried it while taking clomid also, I didn't have the strong contraction like the first time like I did the first time but I was also standing up. This time I did feel a bit foggy and also tired but I didn't sleep that well. I then had a long nap and then I woke up feeling fine.
Take what I said with a pinch of salt I am still unsure how effective it is for me so I need to test more but I would recommend you try it out for sure, I need to combine with antihistamines probably. I also need to write down a diary next O as my memory seems to be worse than usual affecting my accounts of symptoms.
I have started taking the milnacrpan everyday as I think it will help my autonomic dysfunction and also if I take it as a one off treatment I think it will just make my autonomic dysfunction worse. I have also been waking up with sore throats it seems that when I take milnacrpan or hordenine noradrenaline drugs they seem to give me sore throats the morning after taking.
I have also noticed after 6-8 of milnacrapn without O some speech problems and brain fog does kick in and a lot of antidepressants cause brain fog and speech problems for me. Probably because I need to sort out my b12 and folate levels and also my methylation functionality, I have recently learnt that blood levels of b12 are useless at showing whether you are b12 deficient or not and that methylmalonic acid and active b12 blood tests are needed.
Folate is required for the transfer of b12 from the blood to the tissue so low folate causes functional b12 deficiency, the b12 builds up in the blood in an inactive form when folate is low like mine is. So I need to sort out my folate deficiency urgently.
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Anyway even with the clomid my libido seems low still and I'm not really interested in jacking off and don't find jacking off very enjoyable at all. I tried a stronger dose of clomid yesterday 25mg not 12.5mg and I felt weird and foggy. So I will just take the milnacrpan only daily now.
I arranged a date with a girl next week so I will put my energy into that
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Anyway even with the clomid my libido seems low still and I'm not really interested in jacking off and don't find jacking off very enjoyable at all. I tried a stronger dose of clomid yesterday 25mg not 12.5mg and I felt weird and foggy. So I will just take the milnacrpan only daily now.
I arranged a date with a girl next week so I will put my energy into that
Wow, you have the social capability to go on a date, that's impressive!
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I would say my social skills are pretty damn awful, but the only way one improves is with practice. I will prepare this whole week with different types of exercises so I can be the best version of myself for the date. The shower and water contact reactions have been holding me back as I don't want to stink on dates but I also don't wanna be a brain fog zombie weirdo.
This guys blog posts really helped me improve my game on dating apps where I am now at a point where I can arrange dates much much easier when before I didn't possess the skills to do so https://textgod.com/how-to-keep-a-tinder-conversation-going/
Also I think day game is also important to improve confidence and social skills with girls
What is day game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dpLfxkFPMI
Watch Alex's journey he makes a good transformation into a much more confident person
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7M3-4_FyLQ&list=PLbnZarbx21seOOUGp9KMVYIDrODnYET2m&index=26 - this is where he started at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EisafVhncII&t=84s
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It still works for me.
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It still works for me.
Have you tried the new brand.
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It still works for me.
Have you tried the new brand.
Not yet, certainly. I'll try it soon and post a report.
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I am about to order Savella (Milnacipran) from AIPCT online pharmacy. Highly skeptical, but at least a few of you have tried them and received your order.
I wonder if other members are trying it too and can report back with their results...
Cheers
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Hurray, are you able to test the one from AIPCT?
If you don't test it until you run out of this box, you may find it doesn't work, and you will be stuck with no option? Isn't it better to find out now so you can pre-order a new box from elsewhere if it doesn't work and receive it in time before your current box which works, runs out.
That pharmacy seems sketchy, their phone number doesn't work, he emailed me back instantly though with decent English which is comforting - but there are so many counterfeit drugs around, who knows... Somehow you have had luck with that other place. Glad it's still working for you. :-)
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I have written 2 posts above and don't want to bombard anyone, but a quick question whenever you have time Hurray... :-)
These kinds of (anti-depressent) drugs normally take days, or weeks to kick-in. Yet, didn't you say that the very first time you took it, and O'd an hour or so afterwards, that it worked for you? That means the drug worked almost immediately for you, like a Diazepam/Valium. Had you taken it for a few days in a row before you tried to O, or you just took it the first time, O'd, and it worked like magic?
Lastly, if you are open to share, otherwise no need, but what purpose was that drug prescribed for, and if it was prescribed, the assumption is that the drug would be available in the country that the doctor prescribed it - but you had to buy it in India? A bit confused about that.
Thanks again for all the info.
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I have written 2 posts above and don't want to bombard anyone, but a quick question whenever you have time Hurray... :-)
These kinds of (anti-depressent) drugs normally take days, or weeks to kick-in. Yet, didn't you say that the very first time you took it, and O'd an hour or so afterwards, that it worked for you? That means the drug worked almost immediately for you, like a Diazepam/Valium. Had you taken it for a few days in a row before you tried to O, or you just took it the first time, O'd, and it worked like magic?
Lastly, if you are open to share, otherwise no need, but what purpose was that drug prescribed for, and if it was prescribed, the assumption is that the drug would be available in the country that the doctor prescribed it - but you had to buy it in India? A bit confused about that.
Thanks again for all the info.
Hi Laotzu,
I do not take milnacipran, and will not neither, but just a comment about your question above. The anti-depressant drugs effect, as you say, may take weeks to fully develop. But it is not known, up to now, what in this drug may be beneficial in POIS. So, its benefits may not be linked to the anti-depressant effect. Other effects show more rapidly. For example, gastrointestinal side-effects of many anti-depressant will start within hours of the first dose, which is not surprising, because 90% of the serotonin in the body is in the guts - just a small portion is in the brain. So, some unknown effect could be beneficial against POIS and brain fog, and this effect could theoretically start right away, just like some side effects do.
Maybe, eventually, a POIS study will try some specific medication in POIS, and see when, and hopefully, how, they are useful in POIS. Milnacipran may be one day tested in such a study. Till then, we have to stay open to anecdotal results, and try to learn from them as much as possible.
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I think it makes sense for an SNRI to be helpful for POIS, specially if symptoms are mental and behavioral only. I think at the root of POIS is emotionally harmful memories as a child (specific to ejaculation), those memories may it be abuse, event(s), accident(s), painful episode(s), over a period of time, hard-wire neural circuits atypically, and as child grows they manifest into various disorders, POIS being one - a disorder centered on ejaculation.
In my view SNRI would counter the symptoms to an extend, however if your POIS has manifested into a lot more systemic effects all over your body, SNRI's efficacy would have certain limitations. But I think SNRI is a good Rx medical approach to detach you from trauma provided you continue the medication daily, and you take certain precautions (which sometimes docs forget) i.e. monitoring your heart-rate, BP, temps, and weight.
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I think it makes sense for an SNRI to be helpful for POIS, specially if symptoms are mental and behavioral only. I think at the root of POIS is emotionally harmful memories as a child (specific to ejaculation), those memories may it be abuse, event(s), accident(s), painful episode(s), over a period of time, hard-wire neural circuits atypically, and as child grows they manifest into various disorders, POIS being one - a disorder centered on ejaculation.
In my view SNRI would counter the symptoms to an extend, however if your POIS has manifested into a lot more systemic effects all over your body, SNRI's efficacy would have certain limitations. But I think SNRI is a good Rx medical approach to detach you from trauma provided you continue the medication daily, and you take certain precautions (which sometimes docs forget) i.e. monitoring your heart-rate, BP, temps, and weight.
Interesting theory can you elaborate more on the POIS painful childhood memory theory have you had one you think may have caused POIS and have you heard other cases, is it possible to rewire the underlaying traumatic memories completely fixing POIS and getting your state of being to what it was before that, I don't remember what could have been traumatic memory that could've caused POIS I think POIS began as my body started producing semen before I don't recall having it. I got mostly cognitive type of symptoms but there are some physical too like different muscle tension in some areas making my walk sort of odd and slowing my reflexes.
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I would, if you could get me your waking up temperature, fasting glucose, peak glucose, and BP readings. Though in advance, answering (and I have discussed it in other threads too), in my case I think my painful memories have been due to my own limitations. I have been very sensitive as a child, severe speech issues, extreme fear, emotionally numb, and big blind spots in thinking i.e. unable to understand certain very basic things, unable to let go of things. During growing up, I all of sudden one day discovered I had the ejaculatory organ p, and I viewed it as some spider crawling up on me. I was gripped in intense fear, and I think my family, and doctors tried to allay my fear. I am not certain of details, but I think it was circumcision procedure after which big thick stitches are put on the p, and somehow I only noticed that I had a penis organ, and those stitches appeared to me as a spider. All I remember is my ordeals (on the p organ) never ended. I remember myself yelling in fear as threads from my clothes used to get stuck inside or around the p. Then I became frightened from the nocturnal emissions. And all I remember, I used to turn very pale and sick, severe nasal congestion (that was intolerable). Nasal congestants, steroids, they used to stop working.
Thanks goodness I did not have much awareness of many things in life, otherwise I would have killed myself instantly as a no brainer, since inability to breath discomfort was intense. I feared ejaculation and symptoms that ensued. As years passed, my symptoms became tolerable and I accepted the reality as nobody believed me anyways. I did not give up my search though, and just few years ago, I found this forum and learnt most importantly that what I was experiencing was real, more people like me. I have experimenting with various approaches since. Almost all approaches that Quantum lists in of the pinned threads, I tried them. nanna1's approach I think is very effective. My transformational breakthrough happened though after I tried 'bovine naturally dissected thyroid', but since I have been trying so many things, so its foolhardy for me to say that it was x that did it. My research on it, was intriguing, I felt there was a concerted effort (or maybe it was legitimate, I dont know) but I felt a concerted effort to portray it negatively by modern medicine that is pharma influenced.
About how to re-wire the neural circuits which control mental, behavioral and systemic processes in body (immune system, gut, etc) I think is close to impossible as they get hard-wired as you grow, effectively changing your various 'metabolic' pathways, hormones, neurotransmitters, gene expressions, enzymes, etc. I do am intrigued about Psylocybin research that claims to successfully reverse underlying causes, but that's a very expensive therapy to try.
Interesting theory can you elaborate more on the POIS painful childhood memory theory have you had one you think may have caused POIS and have you heard other cases, is it possible to rewire the underlaying traumatic memories completely fixing POIS and getting your state of being to what it was before that, I don't remember what could have been traumatic memory that could've caused POIS I think POIS began as my body started producing semen before I don't recall having it. I got mostly cognitive type of symptoms but there are some physical too like different muscle tension in some areas making my walk sort of odd and slowing my reflexes.
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I would, if you could get me your waking up temperature, fasting glucose, peak glucose, and BP readings. Though in advance, answering (and I have discussed it in other threads too), in my case I think my painful memories have been due to my own limitations. I have been very sensitive as a child, severe speech issues, extreme fear, emotionally numb, and big blind spots in thinking i.e. unable to understand certain very basic things, unable to let go of things. During growing up, I all of sudden one day discovered I had the ejaculatory organ p, and I viewed it as some spider crawling up on me. I was gripped in intense fear, and I think my family, and doctors tried to allay my fear. I am not certain of details, but I think it was circumcision procedure after which big thick stitches are put on the p, and somehow I only noticed that I had a penis organ, and those stitches appeared to me as a spider. All I remember is my ordeals (on the p organ) never ended. I remember myself yelling in fear as threads from my clothes used to get stuck inside or around the p. Then I became frightened from the nocturnal emissions. And all I remember, I used to turn very pale and sick, severe nasal congestion (that was intolerable). Nasal congestants, steroids, they used to stop working.
Thanks goodness I did not have much awareness of many things in life, otherwise I would have killed myself instantly as a no brainer, since inability to breath discomfort was intense. I feared ejaculation and symptoms that ensued. As years passed, my symptoms became tolerable and I accepted the reality as nobody believed me anyways. I did not give up my search though, and just few years ago, I found this forum and learnt most importantly that what I was experiencing was real, more people like me. I have experimenting with various approaches since. Almost all approaches that Quantum lists in of the pinned threads, I tried them. nanna1's approach I think is very effective. My transformational breakthrough happened though after I tried 'bovine naturally dissected thyroid', but since I have been trying so many things, so its foolhardy for me to say that it was x that did it. My research on it, was intriguing, I felt there was a concerted effort (or maybe it was legitimate, I dont know) but I felt a concerted effort to portray it negatively by modern medicine that is pharma influenced.
About how to re-wire the neural circuits which control mental, behavioral and systemic processes in body (immune system, gut, etc) I think is close to impossible as they get hard-wired as you grow, effectively changing your various 'metabolic' pathways, hormones, neurotransmitters, gene expressions, enzymes, etc. I do am intrigued about Psylocybin research that claims to successfully reverse underlying causes, but that's a very expensive therapy to try.
Interesting theory can you elaborate more on the POIS painful childhood memory theory have you had one you think may have caused POIS and have you heard other cases, is it possible to rewire the underlaying traumatic memories completely fixing POIS and getting your state of being to what it was before that, I don't remember what could have been traumatic memory that could've caused POIS I think POIS began as my body started producing semen before I don't recall having it. I got mostly cognitive type of symptoms but there are some physical too like different muscle tension in some areas making my walk sort of odd and slowing my reflexes.
If I were you I would try the Dynamic Neural Retraining System its for retraining the limbic system I think it would help and then maybe also eye desensitization therapy
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That is actually a very good advice. I wish they made the knowledge of it free on the internet.
If I were you I would try the Dynamic Neural Retraining System its for retraining the limbic system I think it would help and then maybe also eye desensitization therapy
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Interesting Quantum. Thank you for that information.
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Interesting, I was watching CNN and I saw an advertisement for Fibromyalgia Tests which listed bullet points of all the symptoms of Fibromyalgia which included: brain fog, poor sleep, anxiety, fatigue and tiredness. These are my exact symptoms, so I am not surprised Milnacipran has helped Hurray with his POIS.
Based on my long battle with extreme POIS I will share one major observation. Quantum has expressed this as well. I have noticed, and this is no exaggeration, that during periods of higher anxiety levels, my POIS is much, much worse. What's really interesting though, is that during periods where I experience no anxiety, and am in a very healthy routine, which includes meditation several times a day, my POIS has periodically been reduced by up to 70-90% (with a prepack of vitamins which I always take) and instead of lasting a few days symptoms may disappear during the first day. This may seem ridiculous, because my POIS is one of the worst here. I literally cannot socialise while in a bad POIS episode, and like clockwork it lasts 2 full days (3 night's sleep).
I imagine that the high cortisol or chemicals released into the body due to stress and anxiety are a primary contributer to my highly sensitive body being unable to deal with its response to orgasm.
Just a thought.
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I did another test with Milnacipran just now taking it one hour before O, strangely this time it made me on edge and feeling bad for the hour before O, after I had the O I felt much better but this time I had a strange stinging sensation in the prostate during the O and I never had this before. O wasn't pleasurable either more just like a release. Semen also smelt chemically which also never happens probably due to the supplements I'm on.
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Another thing to add about Milnacipran is that it makes me always go flacid after the first O, when usually I could go for one or two more. Probably thats a good thing for POISers lol
If you're gonna take Milnacipran I would advise to take only as a one off treatment rather than daily, when I went daily thats when I started to feel much worse from taking it
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I did another test with Milnacipran just now taking it one hour before O, strangely this time it made me on edge and feeling bad for the hour before O, after I had the O I felt much better but this time I had a strange stinging sensation in the prostate during the O and I never had this before. O wasn't pleasurable either more just like a release. Semen also smelt chemically which also never happens probably due to the supplements I'm on.
While trying to go to bed I experience some uncomfortable constricted feeling in my head, I have rashes on my chest and face and some veins appear on my forehead. I wake up feeling fine then at 1-30pm then a little stress activates my symptoms a bit but it doesn't feel too overwhleming, I go to buy food and I'm not feeling great but still can speak some what. Now i get home and took two NACS and a drop of oregano oil with olive oil and I'm feeling better.
Either way I recommend this treatment to be tried by everyone as it should probably reduce your symptoms at the least. However for me I will not take it again as I didn't like this latest experience on it and I feel like I react slightly to the drug itself, plus my POIS is already much better than it used to be.
Update : Started to feel bad again and used TDCS Transcranial direct current stimulation now I feel better I'm going to trial just only TDCS the next time I try an O. Theres a lot of scientific studies backing up TDCS for lots of different things like brain injuries or psychiatric conditions so it is worth testing more for POIS
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tdcs sounds interesting.
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I did another test with Milnacipran just now taking it one hour before O, strangely this time it made me on edge and feeling bad for the hour before O, after I had the O I felt much better but this time I had a strange stinging sensation in the prostate during the O and I never had this before. O wasn't pleasurable either more just like a release. Semen also smelt chemically which also never happens probably due to the supplements I'm on.
While trying to go to bed I experience some uncomfortable constricted feeling in my head, I have rashes on my chest and face and some veins appear on my forehead. I wake up feeling fine then at 1-30pm then a little stress activates my symptoms a bit but it doesn't feel too overwhleming, I go to buy food and I'm not feeling great but still can speak some what. Now i get home and took two NACS and a drop of oregano oil with olive oil and I'm feeling better.
Either way I recommend this treatment to be tried by everyone as it should probably reduce your symptoms at the least. However for me I will not take it again as I didn't like this latest experience on it and I feel like I react slightly to the drug itself, plus my POIS is already much better than it used to be.
Update : Started to feel bad again and used TDCS Transcranial direct current stimulation now I feel better I'm going to trial just only TDCS the next time I try an O. Theres a lot of scientific studies backing up TDCS for lots of different things like brain injuries or psychiatric conditions so it is worth testing more for POIS
Forget what I said everything was only temporary relief I went to the gym last night and in the second half I started to feel symptoms, when I hung from the pull up bar I could feel pain and a weird feeling in the pelvic area 10cm down from bellow button.
Today I was more active than yesterday and I felt symptoms still, I feel like my prostate didn't empty properly during the O which caused semen to go into the bladder. My pelvic area 10cm bellow from bellow button is still sore when I push down on it, it feels like this every time for POIS. From the beginning of my POIS I have always thought it is probably to do with semen irritating the bladder, which then in turn causes issues with catecholamines norepinephrine etc. I had IC before POIS.
I only did this as an experiment as people keep asking me about Milnacipran and I didn't really monitor the other times I tried it so much. Masturbation is a complete waste of time unless you are at a point where you are feeling worse from not masturbating or have a good treatment for it.
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Hurray - are you still having success with Milza?
Do you only take it before 'o' or more often?
How many O's per week do you use it for?
Thanks 🙂
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I find this strange.
Hurray has found a solution which totally removed his POIS. He only takes it before O.
Why are other members not trying this? Only one other member tested it after him and also had some success.
Shouldn't members be all over this potential miracle drug which is only needed prior to O, and not every day?
I'm overseas and it is not available here, but in Australia it is, and I will try it as soon as I return.
Don't others want to give it a try?
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I find this strange.
Hurray has found a solution which totally removed his POIS. He only takes it before O.
Why are other members not trying this? Only one other member tested it after him and also had some success.
Shouldn't members be all over this potential miracle drug which is only needed prior to O, and not every day?
I'm overseas and it is not available here, but in Australia it is, and I will try it as soon as I return.
Don't others want to give it a try?
Tried it and it wasn't successful for me, but maybe I'm a unique case as my MAO gene mutations are problematic for antidepressants/psychiatric drugs.
But I get your point I think a lot of people in here are just interested in finding/trying their own treatments rather than trying what works for others which might be better in some cases but worse in others. Also there is an overwhelming amount of info on this forum it took me a few years before I started using it properly and trying out the different advice. So I can understand how it can be confusing on what to do/try.
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Why are other members not trying this?
Milnacipran isn't the only one. Here is another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=792.0
People tend to try stuff that is readily available (OTC) before they move on to psychiatric drugs like milnacipran.
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Picamilon is not available in many countries as far as I can see. I will try to find it online somewhere to test it. Thanks for mentioning.
Milnacipran is available in many, quite cheap, and only required before O (not every day) which seems ideal. If people are suffering that badly and unable to function, it amazes me that they do not try these drugs, or at least report back after trying.
If anyone else has tried it, or any other drugs that help prevent severe brain fog, anxiety, etc, after O, it would be great to know.
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You can find a compilation here: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3551.0
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Amazing. Thanks Muon!
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Why are other members not trying this? Only one other member tested it after him and also had some success.
As others mentioned, it's the OTC problem.
Plus there is a lot of cures to be found in this forum and people are dissapointed with trying them and failing to suceed.
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I have stumbled on the norepinephrine theory of POIS too and have also been cured (so far) by another SNRI....Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin also blocks reuptake of dopamine so it can replace adderrall for those with ADHD. The last 3 weeks since I started have been like a miracle for me. I have O'd 5 or 6 times, I have light physical symptoms, achiness, heavy muscles and a bit of fatigue, but the emotional and cognitive effects are ZERO.
I continue to take propranolol, and an occasional antihistamine. Also, I take sudafed to further increase the norepinephrine.
I'd STRONGLY recommend those who haven't explored this avenue to do so under a doctor or psychiatrist's supervision.
This is the way.
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Interesting! Do you only take it before O or do you take it every day? So glad you have success with it so far!
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Wellbutrin discussion continues in https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3755
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Is Hurray still having success with Milnacipran? I assume he is, since he hasn't reported back. No news is probably good news.
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Is Hurray still having success with Milnacipran? I assume he is, since he hasn't reported back. No news is probably good news.
Yes, it still works. I'm a lucky guy.
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I have stumbled on the norepinephrine theory of POIS too and have also been cured (so far) by another SNRI....Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin also blocks reuptake of dopamine so it can replace adderrall for those with ADHD. The last 3 weeks since I started have been like a miracle for me. I have O'd 5 or 6 times, I have light physical symptoms, achiness, heavy muscles and a bit of fatigue, but the emotional and cognitive effects are ZERO.
I continue to take propranolol, and an occasional antihistamine. Also, I take sudafed to further increase the norepinephrine.
I'd STRONGLY recommend those who haven't explored this avenue to do so under a doctor or psychiatrist's supervision.
This is the way.
That's good news OpiesDad :) Wellbutrin (bupropion) sadly hasn't worked for me in the past - in my case, I think the dopamine reuptake inhibition makes me feel anxious and jittery. But it's great that it works for you, and could potentially work for other people.
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Funny Hurray, you mentioned Amitriptyline as what you were going to ask the doctor for. That is what the neurologist gave me. It didn't knock out brain fog and anxiety, but it did appear to stabilise mood which within POIS swings like a dead cat. I also didn't feel the body was 'depressed'. But without the brain fog and concentration, it is all useless, as you know... 🙂
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Funny Hurray, you mentioned Amitriptyline as what you were going to ask the doctor for. That is what the neurologist gave me. It didn't knock out brain fog and anxiety, but it did appear to stabilise mood which within POIS swings like a dead cat. I also didn't feel the body was 'depressed'. But without the brain fog and concentration, it is all useless, as you know... ????
Yes, that was going to be the next one on my list. I was looking specifically at drugs that had a norepinephrine reuptake inhibition component, and amitriptyline is widely available. I've tried a number of other drugs with an NRI component without success, but I'm definitely interested in other people's experiences with them.
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Congratulations dear friends!
As I've been insisting on, POIS must be handled by professional psychiatrist. You've seen the results.
Good luck everybody!
btw I'm still making progress by cold showers and rexepi combi
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As I've been insisting on, POIS must be handled by professional psychiatrist.
I have been with this forum and it’s predecessor for over 14 years, and I think I can speak for some other POISers here as well: from my personal experience with psychiatrists over a period of many, many years, they have helped me understand my neuroses, but they have done very-little-to-nothing for my POIS.
Best wishes, lw!
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I look forward to trying Milnacipran when it is possible to get some..... Glad all well with you still.
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As I've been insisting on, POIS must be handled by professional psychiatrist. You've seen the results.
No...
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Hurray, Quantum, and anyone else...
If you have any ideas for drugs to try, I see the neurologist on Friday, and then again on the following Tuesday, and every 4 days until something gives me some relief from this hell...
I will try ANYTHING with the doctors approval (just once, as a pre-pack) that anyone recommends providing it seems suitable or has worked for others. This doctor is happy to let me try whatever this group thinks may help. Here in Thailand hospitals they dispense the exact amount of pills the doctor asks for, rather than needing to buy a whole box so it is cheap as he will prescribe me with only 2-3 pills of each.
The Amitriptyline was a no-go.
I did not try the Methylphenidate as a pre-pack yet, but I did try it within POIS and it didn't help concentration/brain fog at all. He gave me the 18mg Sandoz slow release (over 8 or 9 hours) which cannot be taken after 2 pm, so I may ask for the immediate release to try it as a pre-pack.
Anyway, if anyone has any ideas, let me know. 🙂
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Amitriptyline is a really dirty drug as it works on so many receptors hence why it causes so many people side effects and bad withdrawal symptoms, there's even a facebook group called amitriptyline withdrawal because of this. People seem to have a nightmare coming off of it compared to other antidepressants, I'm surprised your doc prescribed it to you for non daily use. Shows these "professionals" know nothing...
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How about:
- Levomilnacipran (if I can get it here, which is different to milnacipran)
- Venlafaxine
Have any members had success with either of these (I don't see much in the search history for these, from anyone that has had success).
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How about:
- Levomilnacipran (if I can get it here, which is different to milnacipran)
- Venlafaxine
Have any members had success with either of these (I don't see much in the search history for these, from anyone that has had success).
Given levomilnacipran's similarity to milnacipran, I would be fairly surprised if it didn't work in my case.
It is the levorotatory enantiomer of milnacipran, and has similar effects and pharmacology, acting as a serotonin–norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (SNRI).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levomilnacipran
I've tried duloxetine and venlafaxine, there's a bit about them on page 3 of this thread:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3312.30
They did have some effect on my POIS, but the side-effects were so strong for me that I couldn't tolerate them. They stay in your system for about 24 hours, and its very easy to become dependent on them. I wouldn't recommend them to anybody.
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Ok, thanks for that reply Hurray.
I gave Amitriptyline another try, without taking any other vitamins this time, and with food as well, and the result is actually not bad. Today is my first day of POIS, and it is actually manageable. I would say symptoms are at least 60% better, and I can communicate with others relatively well.
Actually last time was similar; the reason I did not notice it fully is due to one side-effect of the drug being that it makes you really tired and groggy. I slept about 11 hours last night, best sleep in a long time (people use this drug for insomnia too) but it has kept me tired and groggy the next day (still, 5 pm now). There is definitely a noticeable reduction in brain fog, concentration, social anxiety, and the headache is less than usual.
The fact that it does help quite a lot with symptoms is uplifting, and it does lead me to believe that this 'type' of drug may be the correct one (for me), so Milnacipran or other SNRIs may be helpful too. Overall far better today than normal POIS. Having such a good sleep may also be at play here, and it could even be the sleep more than the drug, but either way it is the drug that helped to have such a good sleep.
Let's see how tomorrow (POIS day 2) goes.
That's all for now. Thanks again for everyone's help, and all suggestions for drugs to trial are welcome.
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Ok, thanks for that reply Hurray.
I gave Amitriptyline another try, without taking any other vitamins this time, and with food as well, and the result is actually not bad. Today is my first day of POIS, and it is actually manageable. I would say symptoms are at least 60% better, and I can communicate with others relatively well.
Actually last time was similar; the reason I did not notice it fully is due to one side-effect of the drug being that it makes you really tired and groggy. I slept about 11 hours last night, best sleep in a long time (people use this drug for insomnia too) but it has kept me tired and groggy the next day (still, 5 pm now). There is definitely a noticeable reduction in brain fog, concentration, social anxiety, and the headache is less than usual.
The fact that it does help quite a lot with symptoms is uplifting, and it does lead me to believe that this 'type' of drug may be the correct one (for me), so Milnacipran or other SNRIs may be helpful too. Overall far better today than normal POIS. Having such a good sleep may also be at play here, and it could even be the sleep more than the drug, but either way it is the drug that helped to have such a good sleep.
Let's see how tomorrow (POIS day 2) goes.
That's all for now. Thanks again for everyone's help, and all suggestions for drugs to trial are welcome.
Good news with regards to your amitriptyline results.
I've said some negative things about duloxetine and venlafaxine (and deservedly so), but their effect on my POIS was what led me to try milnacipran. I remain convinced that it is the norepinephrine reuptake inhibition component of milnacipran that nullifies my POIS symptoms.
If milnacipran hadn't worked for me, I would have gone on to try other sNRIs (selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors, as opposed to SNRIs, which are serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors) and NRIs.
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For sNRIs, Wikipedia only shows these 2: Reboxetine and Atomoxetine. You mean you would have tried those?
Atomoxetine is sold under the brand name Strattera and was first approved for medical use in the United States in 2002.[1] Its indication is for the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in kids over 6 years of age, adolescents and adults.[2] Atomoxetine selectively inhibits norepinephrine reuptake by blocking the presynaptic norepinephrine transporter(NET) in the brain. Research has suggested that it also inhibits the reuptake of serotonin by binding to the selective serotonin transporter. However it is not known whether the therapeutic effects of atomoxetine is due to its blockage of the NET or both norepinephrine- and serotonin transporters.[1]
Reboxetine is the active ingredient, sold under the brand name Edronax.[3] Reboxetine is a selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and acts by binding to the NET and block the reuptake of norepinephrine in the extracellular fluids. Its indication is for acute treatment of depression or major depression disorder. Reboxetine was first approved for marketing in Europe in 1997, however, in the United States its application for approval was rejected.[4]
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For sNRIs, Wikipedia only shows these 2: Reboxetine and Atomoxetine. You mean you would have tried those?
Atomoxetine is sold under the brand name Strattera and was first approved for medical use in the United States in 2002.[1] Its indication is for the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in kids over 6 years of age, adolescents and adults.[2] Atomoxetine selectively inhibits norepinephrine reuptake by blocking the presynaptic norepinephrine transporter(NET) in the brain. Research has suggested that it also inhibits the reuptake of serotonin by binding to the selective serotonin transporter. However it is not known whether the therapeutic effects of atomoxetine is due to its blockage of the NET or both norepinephrine- and serotonin transporters.[1]
Reboxetine is the active ingredient, sold under the brand name Edronax.[3] Reboxetine is a selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and acts by binding to the NET and block the reuptake of norepinephrine in the extracellular fluids. Its indication is for acute treatment of depression or major depression disorder. Reboxetine was first approved for marketing in Europe in 1997, however, in the United States its application for approval was rejected.[4]
I've tried atomoxetine with no success. However, one poster called Cornelius claimed that his POIS was cured, and he took Strattera. Unfortunately, some people reacted negatively to his claims, and he ended up deleting his post and leaving the site. His thread is still here:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=226.0
I would have tried reboxetine at some point had milnacipran not been so effective for me. Amitriptyline and Ritalin both have an NRI component, as do many other medications.
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Okay, got it. Thanks. It looks like Reboxetine will be next on the list then to try, if it's available here. Thanks for the link too, I will check out the Cornelius post now.
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Today the neurologist prescribed 4 different medications to test as a pre-pack only.
I will do a thread search, but if anyone has any experience with the below meds, please feel free to comment (I will not treat it as medical advice, but will show the doctor anything relevant). Unfortunately the meds I was hoping for (Levomilnacipran, Reboxetine, Atomoxetine etc, were not in stock at the hospital).
I have been given to test, separately (testing one at a time), 1 hour before O, the following:
- Venlafaxine (this one I asked him for)
- Propranolol (Beta-blocker)
- Topiramate (brand Topamax)
- Valproate (Depakine brand)
Since there was about a 40% improvement in cognitive symptoms with the Amitriptyline, he suggested to try taking an extra half or whole pill to see if it makes more difference. Given that I only tested it at a relatively small dose of 25 mg, so I may give that a try again too.
Surprisingly he read some article about POIS in the few days I had seen him last to try to understand more about it, so that was at least something. He even had it open and prepared on his iPad when I arrived, without knowing I would visit him today.
Will report back.
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Surprisingly he read some article about POIS in the few days I had seen him last to try to understand more about it, so that was at least something. He even had it open and prepared on his iPad when I arrived, without knowing I would visit him today.
Will report back.
A very dedicated neurologist. He must be an intelligent and kind person :)
Let us know about the results of your different tests!
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Thanks Q. Will report back. :)
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Just logging result.
Venlafaxine (75 mg), taken 1.5 hours before O, has done nothing, as it seems now (the following morning). In extreme POIS, so will be 4-5 days before I try the next option.
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Hurray, what was your experience with Venlafaxine? I am surprised it did absolutely nothing for me considering the Amitriptyline had about a 40-50% symptom reduction. You mentioned the Venlafaxine (among others) led you to Milnacipran, so I wonder how much it helped you?
Did you ever try a Beta-blocker? Since there was some help with the Amitriptyline, I may try the Propranolol Beta-blocker he gave me combined with Amitriptyline (small dose of 25 mg). My blood pressure is high, so a Beta-blocker may be useful.
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Hurray, what was your experience with Venlafaxine? I am surprised it did absolutely nothing for me considering the Amitriptyline had about a 40-50% symptom reduction. You mentioned the Venlafaxine (among others) led you to Milnacipran, so I wonder how much it helped you?
Did you ever try a Beta-blocker? Since there was some help with the Amitriptyline, I may try the Propranolol Beta-blocker he gave me combined with Amitriptyline (small dose of 25 mg). My blood pressure is high, so a Beta-blocker may be useful.
Outside POIS, venlafaxine had strong mental side-effects for me. It put me in a kind of stupor where I wasn't fit to drive. It was difficult to gauge my mental state on venlafaxine, but I did notice that my POIS felt different on venlafaxine. SSRIs hadn't helped me in the past, and venlafaxine is 30 times more selective for serotonin than norepinephrine. I figured maybe the norepinephrine component had helped, tried milnacipran which is equally selective for serotonin and norepinephrine, and to my surprised it worked.
I've tried propranolol without success, but hopefully you'll have more luck.
You mentioned having high blood pressure, milnacipran is known for raising blood pressure. If you or somebody else decides to try milnacipran in the future, be very very careful and do it under a doctor's supervision, as you know high blood pressure can increase the risk of having a stroke.
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Thanks for that Hurray, and for the warning. I am conscious of the blood pressure side effect of these meds and am careful, taking only the lowest doses.
Anyway I won't touch Venlafaxine again, as it did nothing for me.
Next test will probably be to combine the Amitriptyline, of which there was a noticeable reduction in symptoms, with the Beta-blocker Propranolol, which lowers blood pressure and heart rate - so it will be interesting.
Will report back. Glad to know you still have success with Milnacipran. 🙂
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https://scholar.google.nl/scholar?hl=nl&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=anti-inflammatory+antidepressants&btnG=
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I'm curious if anyone has felt those interactions with sodium like me:
I don't feel good at all today. Headache, weakness, brain fog ...
I started Milnacipran (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3312.0) ca 6 days ago. (still doing Safran, Ashwagandha).
The can-not-stand-and-need-to-sit-down feeling that normally goes OK after eating salty snack + sugary isotonic drink did not go away.
Now I read on the internet that Milnacipran and SSRIs/SNRIs can create salt deficiency (sodium deficiency, hyponatremia)
https://www.hilarispublisher.com/open-access/use-of-milnacipran-in-a-patient-with-hyponatremia-under-the-cover-of-fludrocortisones-2165-7920.1000308.pdf
I feel slightly better after taking an electrolyte mix and also taking some salt separately. :-\
I won't take the second 25mg Milnacipran dose today.
Thanks
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I'm curious if anyone has felt those interactions with sodium like me:
I don't feel good at all today. Headache, weakness, brain fog ...
I started Milnacipran (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3312.0) ca 6 days ago. (still doing Safran, Ashwagandha).
The can-not-stand-and-need-to-sit-down feeling that normally goes OK after eating salty snack + sugary isotonic drink did not go away.
Now I read on the internet that Milnacipran and SSRIs/SNRIs can create salt deficiency (sodium deficiency, hyponatremia)
https://www.hilarispublisher.com/open-access/use-of-milnacipran-in-a-patient-with-hyponatremia-under-the-cover-of-fludrocortisones-2165-7920.1000308.pdf
I feel slightly better after taking an electrolyte mix and also taking some salt separately. :-\
I won't take the second 25mg Milnacipran dose today.
Thanks
I've sometimes wondered if lack of salt is one of the factors that influences my POIS. I generally have some food before O, mostly meals including salt, but I don't specifically eat salt to stop POIS.
Interesting to hear that you're trying milnacipran, I hope that you have some success with it. It sounds like you're taking it every day? I've tried that and it works, but I prefer taking it "on demand".
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Glad there is another member trialing it.
Berlin:
- did you take it every day or only before O?
- how many O's did you have within that 6 days?
- how many hours before O did you take the pill?
Off memory Hurray reported that even taking it a few hours before left him with some symptoms.
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I'm taking it because I thought it could help my orthostatic intolerance. I told the doctor that Safran and Ashwagandha (and salt and fluids) already help but I want to try something stronger.
I asked for an antidepressant, he reluctantly wanted to give me another one but I managed to get Milnacipran because I was thinking about the forum here and thought maybe it also fixes POIS ;D
I think he has no idea about orthostatic intolerance (I did not use this word to describe it) actually.
I am trying to take it daily 25mg.
I had only one trial orgasm where I took an additional 25mg 2h before masturbation.
To be honest it does not change my POIS problems on day after (pain/anxiety when waking up, superb fatigue in evening after) much. At this moment, at least the pain clears up nicely with coffee and the anxiety with Aswgagandha and Safran.
So I don't think Milnacipran will be so useful to me.
I'm now more thinking of getting this doctor to prescribe me propranolol. I'll follow up in the relevant thread, might take some time because I'm also evaluating other things :-(
I'm even at a point where I say POIS is only a minor part of my problems, if I can fix the big problems then POIS might fix automatically with it or is easily manageable for me.
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I'm taking it because I thought it could help my orthostatic intolerance. I told the doctor that Safran and Ashwagandha (and salt and fluids) already help but I want to try something stronger.
I asked for an antidepressant, he reluctantly wanted to give me another one but I managed to get Milnacipran because I was thinking about the forum here and thought maybe it also fixes POIS ;D
I think he has no idea about orthostatic intolerance (I did not use this word to describe it) actually.
I am trying to take it daily 25mg.
I had only one trial orgasm where I took an additional 25mg 2h before masturbation.
To be honest it does not change my POIS problems on day after (pain/anxiety when waking up, superb fatigue in evening after) much. At this moment, at least the pain clears up nicely with coffee and the anxiety with Aswgagandha and Safran.
So I don't think Milnacipran will be so useful to me.
I'm now more thinking of getting this doctor to prescribe me propranolol. I'll follow up in the relevant thread, might take some time because I'm also evaluating other things :-(
Very interesting, thanks Berlin. From an anti-depressant perspective, I'd say that SNRIs like milnacipran act more powerfully than straight SSRIs, in my experience at least. Something to consider if the side-effects are hard to tolerate. I couldn't live with venlafaxine or duloxetine. I've tried taking milnacipran for a few weeks at a time and it takes away anxiety without dulling my thoughts or turning me into a happy vegetable :)
UK doctors generally start off with something like sertraline (SSRI).
I'm even at a point where I say POIS is only a minor part of my problems, if I can fix the big problems then POIS might fix automatically with it or is easily manageable for me.
This seems like a really good insight. We're a POIS forum, so most of what we write about is based around POIS. But many of us have other health conditions beside POIS. Even if we meet our ultimate goal of stopping POIS, many other problems may remain. Or as you say, fixing the other problems could lead to POIS being cured.
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Milnacipran is not available in Iran. Is there a similar drug?
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Have you tried Safran? (EDIT: Tried to put the Persian in here, but the forum does not like non-English characters... (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=%D8%B2%D8%B9%D9%81%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%86) )
It does not help (much) with pain or fatigue, but I think it works for the mental aspects. I'm using an extract called Affron, but for you it might be cheaper to get the real thing. Search the forum for "Saffron".
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Milnacipran is not available in Iran. Is there a similar drug?
I can also recommend saffron. Venlafaxine also had a positive effect, but I don't remember the specifics as I had taken it more than 10 years ago. I think it has to be taken for a few weeks before a noticeable benefit. As for saffron it really doesn't help that much with fatigue, but besides brain fog it also helps a lot with bloodshot eyes which is a rather persistent symptom in my case. By the way my batch of saffron also came from Iran, so your country's agriculture is actually an exporter of the stuff and it shouldn't be difficult to get some there.
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Back in Australia. Called the doctor. Sending me Milnacipran immediately (tomorrow). 25 mg. About $14 for 14 pills here, but the 50g are apparently cheaper.
I tested my blood pressure yesterday and it was 140/82. High. But I can always feel when my blood pressure is high, so I'll be in meditation for a while to reduce it, and then will test a 25 mg pill of Milnacipran. Who knows if it will work or not, I have zero expectations.
Will report back after a few tries with it. It's funny because I actually fit all the symptoms of Fibromyalgia, for which the drug is used. Brain fog even outside of POIS, tiredness, insomnia, weakness... So I'm very curious how this will begin testing it only as a pre pack, and then even consider taking it more often if it has a positive effect. Step by step.
Thanks for everyone's help so far!
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Milnacipran has arrived. Will try it a few times before reporting back... 🙏
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Milnacipran has arrived. Will try it a few times before reporting back... ????
Hope the milnacipran helps, Laotzu :)
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Hi Hurray,
It seems the Milnacipran was not entirely effective. Being in quarantine now these are not normal conditions (no sun for 4 days, no exercise, etc), but also no stress.
I took 25 mg with a small snack, and O'd about 1 hour and 45 minutes after. I wonder if that was too long to wait. Now is my 2nd day symptoms, and there is depersonalisatiion, and difficulty socialising.
After taking 0.5 mg of Clonazepam they became more manageable, but benzos are not what you want to continue taking.
Will give it another try 5 days after previous O, and try to O about 1.2 hours after instead. I wonder if I should up the dosage, but my bodyweight is 70 kgs, so 50 mg may be a lot?
Any thoughts?
Oh well. 🙂
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Hi Laotzu,
Sorry to hear that the milnacipran didn't seem to work for you the first time. I initially stuck to 25mg because I was getting side-effects of fairly strong nausea, but after taking it for a while my body seemed to grow accustomed to it, and I was able to take larger doses of 50mg and even 100mg.
See what your doctor says regarding an increased dose.
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Thanks Hurray. I tried it again last night, and took 37.5 mg (1.5 capsules), and again, woke up with POIS. No real relief, as far as I can tell.
This time I took it 1 hour and 20 minutes before O also. I weigh only 70 kg, so if there is literally no relief from 37.5mg, I can't imagine this drug is getting to the root of it in my case. If there was even slight relief, I would try to increase the dose further...
No idea... it was a big hope of mine.
Oh well. ☹️ The suffering continues...
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Oh well. :( The [POIS] suffering continues...
Yes. Even at my age (75)
But at least my aging stopped NE’s!
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Thanks Hurray. I tried it again last night, and took 37.5 mg (1.5 capsules), and again, woke up with POIS. No real relief, as far as I can tell.
This time I took it 1 hour and 20 minutes before O also. I weigh only 70 kg, so if there is literally no relief from 37.5mg, I can't imagine this drug is getting to the root of it in my case. If there was even slight relief, I would try to increase the dose further...
No idea... it was a big hope of mine.
Oh well. ?? The suffering continues...
How disappointing :(
I think you are taking the right approach, though. I tried a large number of medicines, vitamins, supplements etc to find relief from POIS before I found the one that worked. You've posted about trying several different medicines recently, you may well find something that works for you soon.
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…I found the one that worked.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8_TjNwCLKWmEURVJ1Lyt4GwfpTgQT2guwww&usqp=CAU)
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…I found the one that worked.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8_TjNwCLKWmEURVJ1Lyt4GwfpTgQT2guwww&usqp=CAU)
Thanks Demo :)
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Thanks Hurray. I tried it again last night, and took 37.5 mg (1.5 capsules), and again, woke up with POIS. No real relief, as far as I can tell.
This time I took it 1 hour and 20 minutes before O also. I weigh only 70 kg, so if there is literally no relief from 37.5mg, I can't imagine this drug is getting to the root of it in my case. If there was even slight relief, I would try to increase the dose further...
No idea... it was a big hope of mine.
Oh well. ?? The suffering continues...
I've mentioned elsewhere in the thread that milnacipran can make me feel nauseous, and make my Os far stronger. After an hour and 15 minutes, if I start feeling nauseous I know that it has "kicked in". The feeling of nausea usually passes after 15 minutes or so.
I've found that if I take milnacipran on an empty stomach, it increases both the Os and the temporary nausea. Are these side-effects signs that milnacipran is "doing its work"? Taking it on an empty stomach appears to add to its strength.
I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has tried milnacipran if they experienced side effects from it.
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I get the nauseous feeling at higher dosages, but I forget at what dosage I start to get nauseous. Unfortunately I didn't the orgasm benefit. I didn't notice any help with my pois. I am waiting to try again.
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I get the nauseous feeling at higher dosages, but I forget at what dosage I start to get nauseous. Unfortunately I didn't the orgasm benefit. I didn't notice any help with my pois. I am waiting to try again.
The benefit with Os seems to be quite a rare side-effect of milnacipran, the only place I've seen it mentioned is here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychiatry/comments/5exgcc/could_someone_provide_insight_on_the_effect_of/
The nausea is more common, but it gets less powerful over time with continuing use of milnacipran.
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I sometimes see people commenting that people who have found a "cure" for POIS often stop posting on the forum.
Well, I still have nothing but good news regarding my taking milnacipran to avoid POIS episodes. The last time I had POIS was about 3 months ago. I got drunk and forgot to take my usual precautions, resulting in 2-3 days of nasty brain fog. I'd forgotten how debilitating it was - I had to call in sick to work to avoid any social encounters. Driving my car would have been very challenging.
Fpr the 3 months before that and since then, I have been POIS-free :) I never thought I would be rid of this curse. Milnacipran has genuinely never stopped working for me.
So don't give up hope! It took me almost 20 years to find something that stopped my POIS symptoms. Hopefully you can find your own cure for POIS more quickly than I did :)
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Unfortunatly Milnacipran is not available in many countries (including scandinavia). Milnacipran (trade names Ixel, Savella, Dalcipran, Toledomin) is a serotonin?norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (SNRI)). So that means it lowers serotonine and norepinephrine? According to Nanna1, the alpha1-adrenergic receptors (who reacts on norepinephrine) are highly involved in POIS-
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I sometimes see people commenting that people who have found a "cure" for POIS often stop posting on the forum.
Well, I still have nothing but good news regarding my taking milnacipran to avoid POIS episodes. The last time I had POIS was about 3 months ago. I got drunk and forgot to take my usual precautions, resulting in 2-3 days of nasty brain fog. I'd forgotten how debilitating it was - I had to call in sick to work to avoid any social encounters. Driving my car would have been very challenging.
Fpr the 3 months before that and since then, I have been POIS-free :) I never thought I would be rid of this curse. Milnacipran has genuinely never stopped working for me.
So don't give up hope! It took me almost 20 years to find something that stopped my POIS symptoms. Hopefully you can find your own cure for POIS more quickly than I did :)
hurray,
(https://p18cdn4static.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_410631/Image/News/sChool%20News/Congratulations.jpg)
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. So that means it lowers serotonine and norepinephrine? According to Nanna1, the alpha1-adrenergic receptors (who reacts on norepinephrine) are highly involved in POIS-
Oposite i think..
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Unfortunatly Milnacipran is not available in many countries (including scandinavia). Milnacipran (trade names Ixel, Savella, Dalcipran, Toledomin) is a serotonin?norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (SNRI)). So that means it lowers serotonine and norepinephrine? According to Nanna1, the alpha1-adrenergic receptors (who reacts on norepinephrine) are highly involved in POIS-
Yes, milnacipran is difficult to buy in many countries. SNRIs actually work in the opposite way, increasing levels of serotonin and norepinephrine. Blaise Bignami hypothesises that "a release of norepinephrine" may trigger POIS:
Bignami et al. considered that POIS is the manifestation of a transient dysregulation of the autonomic nervous system since it is well known that ejaculation triggers a “vegetative storm” with an increase in sympathetic activity and a release of norepinephrine.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6721082/
(his full paper is in French)
https://sci--hub-se.translate.goog/10.1016/j.purol.2017.03.007?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc
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My understanding is that SNRIs increase *extracellular* norepinephrine and decrease *intracellular* NOR. If your adrenergic receptors are upregulated as in nanna's original hypothesis, you have too much *intracellular* NOR in POIS. So Milnacipran may work by decreasing this.
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My understanding is that SNRIs increase *extracellular* norepinephrine and decrease *intracellular* NOR. If your adrenergic receptors are upregulated as in nanna's original hypothesis, you have too much *intracellular* NOR in POIS. So Milnacipran may work by decreasing this.
That's an interesting hypothesis, Prospero. I am well aware of the respect that poiscenter.com members extend to nanna's theories.
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Did anyone in the Netherlands bought "Milnacipran"? If so, did it work and how did you buy it?
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(edited previous post as the second part of what I said wasn't really related to Prospero's post)
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I sometimes see people commenting that people who have found a "cure" for POIS often stop posting on the forum.
Well, I still have nothing but good news regarding my taking milnacipran to avoid POIS episodes. The last time I had POIS was about 3 months ago. I got drunk and forgot to take my usual precautions, resulting in 2-3 days of nasty brain fog. I'd forgotten how debilitating it was - I had to call in sick to work to avoid any social encounters. Driving my car would have been very challenging.
Fpr the 3 months before that and since then, I have been POIS-free :) I never thought I would be rid of this curse. Milnacipran has genuinely never stopped working for me.
So don't give up hope! It took me almost 20 years to find something that stopped my POIS symptoms. Hopefully you can find your own cure for POIS more quickly than I did :)
hurray,
(https://p18cdn4static.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_410631/Image/News/sChool%20News/Congratulations.jpg)
Thank you Demo! We've both been fighting POIS for a long time :)
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hurray,
(https://p18cdn4static.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_410631/Image/News/sChool%20News/Congratulations.jpg)
Thank you Demo! We've both been fighting POIS for a long time :)
Feels like 5,000 years!
Yes, you and I have been with the POIS forums since 2007!!
It’ll be 15 years this coming February!!
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I ordered milnacipran in the Netherlands via the site arzneiprivat.de/
with a doctor's prescription. I have used it 2x for an o, and 0% brain fog, fatigue has remained. For me, brain fog is the worst. I am very happy with this. Milnacipran initially caused mood swings for me. I now only use it for o.
Thank you all!
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I ordered milnacipran in the Netherlands via the site arzneiprivat.de/
with a doctor's prescription. I have used it 2x for an o, and 0% brain fog, fatigue has remained. For me, brain fog is the worst. I am very happy with this. Milnacipran initially caused mood swings for me. I now only use it for o.
Thank you all!
1 tablet prior to an O, what's the dose?
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Milnacipran "works by increasing the amount of serotonin and norepinephrine, natural substances that help stop the movement of pain signals in the brain." Just masking the pain? Well considering the long list of potential side effects of this prescription drug, I would, at best, take it only when its absolutely nessecary and not as a permanent POIS-sollution.
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Milnacipran "works by increasing the amount of serotonin and norepinephrine, natural substances that help stop the movement of pain signals in the brain." Just masking the pain? Well considering the long list of potential side effects of this prescription drug, I would, at best, take it only when its absolutely nessecary and not as a permanent POIS-sollution.
I see that you've been a poster on this forum for just over 2 years, and you've already managed to make more posts than me. Well done :)
But some people would argue that quality is more important than quantity. In your case, you've come on to the thread that I started and made some unsourced quote about "pain signals", which you've then tried to use to discredit the success that I've had taking milnacipran to stop my POIS.
I don't understand your motivations here. My experiences with milnacipran as I have related on this thread are completely genuine. Milnacipran doesn't "mask any pain" for me, it stops my brain fog, allowing me to live my life normally. Do you have a problem with that?
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I got Milnacipran on a doctor's prescription. The doctor indicated he knew someone with Pois who also benefited from this. I don't think the doctor would have prescribed it if it was terrible for me. I only use one pill of 50 mg 1.5 hours before "the event." Not daily. It works well, no brain fog at all. Every time again! I've been using it for several weeks now. I suspect some mood swings, but brain fog is gone. I am very grateful to hurray.
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…I am very grateful to hurray.
Ditto!
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https://www.dinet.org/forums/topic/32423-low-norepinephrine/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine_reuptake_inhibitor#List_of_selective_NRIs
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I got Milnacipran on a doctor's prescription. The doctor indicated he knew someone with Pois who also benefited from this. I don't think the doctor would have prescribed it if it was terrible for me. I only use one pill of 50 mg 1.5 hours before "the event." Not daily. It works well, no brain fog at all. Every time again! I've been using it for several weeks now. I suspect some mood swings, but brain fog is gone. I am very grateful to hurray.
Hi Jan,
I am glad that milnacipran works for you! Keep me updated, so, after 2 to 3 months of use, I can add you as a reference member in the Milnacipran section of the POIS Types Chart along with Hurray, if it is still working for you.
Is this doctor from Waldinger's team ? If he sees POIS patients, we could put his name on our POIS doctors list. Coud you send me his name in a private message, so I can contact him?
I think Hurray takes 25mg in prevention. Did you tried 25mg before going to 50mg ?
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I got Milnacipran on a doctor's prescription. The doctor indicated he knew someone with Pois who also benefited from this. I don't think the doctor would have prescribed it if it was terrible for me. I only use one pill of 50 mg 1.5 hours before "the event." Not daily. It works well, no brain fog at all. Every time again! I've been using it for several weeks now. I suspect some mood swings, but brain fog is gone. I am very grateful to hurray.
That's great news Jan :) It sounds like it works for you in the same way as it works for me, with the brain fog disappearing.
It's very interesting that your doctor had heard of milnacipran helping someone else with POIS, maybe awareness of POIS is increasing in the medical community. Congratulations :)
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I got Milnacipran on a doctor's prescription. The doctor indicated he knew someone with Pois who also benefited from this. I don't think the doctor would have prescribed it if it was terrible for me. I only use one pill of 50 mg 1.5 hours before "the event." Not daily. It works well, no brain fog at all. Every time again! I've been using it for several weeks now. I suspect some mood swings, but brain fog is gone. I am very grateful to hurray.
Hi Jan,
I am glad that milnacipran works for you! Keep me updated, so, after 2 to 3 months of use, I can add you as a reference member in the Milnacipran section of the POIS Types Chart along with Hurray, if it is still working for you.
Is this doctor from Waldinger's team ? If he sees POIS patients, we could put his name on our POIS doctors list. Coud you send me his name in a private message, so I can contact him?
I think Hurray takes 25mg in prevention. Did you tried 25mg before going to 50mg ?
I took 25mg for a long time, for 2 reasons:
1) I experienced nausea if I took more than 25mg for the first 1-2 months of use
2) I have high blood pressure, and one of the specified side-effects of milnacipran is that it can raise your blood pressure
The nausea stopped happening after a while, and I've been monitoring my blood pressure closely and milnacipran doesn't seem to have a significant effect on my blood pressure, thankfully, although I would urge anyone else taking milnacipran to be aware of this potential issue.
I've gone up to 50mg now - it seems to increase the duration of milnacipran's protection - but I'd agree that 25mg is a good place to start to minimize any potential side-effects.
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But some people would argue that quality is more important than quantity. In your case, you've come on to the thread that I started and made some unsourced quote about "pain signals", which you've then tried to use to discredit the success that I've had taking milnacipran to stop my POIS.
I don't understand your motivations here. My experiences with milnacipran as I have related on this thread are completely genuine. Milnacipran doesn't "mask any pain" for me, it stops my brain fog, allowing me to live my life normally. Do you have a problem with that?
Well, I'm not the person you were replying to, I was just browsing the forum and came across this, but I just wanted to say that I also think you should be very cautious when taking a psychiatric medication like Milnacipran. It's great that it helps you, but many things have helped people with POIS, which means they are probably just masking different symptoms and not attacking the cause, since said cause is still unknown. I suppose many medications that affect brain function and mood could make people with POIS feel better, that's what they're supposed to do in general, but they could have serious effects in the long run. Just saying you should maybe be cautious. I hope you won't be offended by this, it's your choice after all, but I personally think sex isn't that important as to take random psychiatric medications so we can have it, no matter what doctors think or say (we all know how effortlessly some of them prescribe meds, and none of them knows the slightest thing for sure about POIS yet). Best of luck to you, take care!
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But some people would argue that quality is more important than quantity. In your case, you've come on to the thread that I started and made some unsourced quote about "pain signals", which you've then tried to use to discredit the success that I've had taking milnacipran to stop my POIS.
I don't understand your motivations here. My experiences with milnacipran as I have related on this thread are completely genuine. Milnacipran doesn't "mask any pain" for me, it stops my brain fog, allowing me to live my life normally. Do you have a problem with that?
Well, I'm not the person you were replying to, I was just browsing the forum and came across this, but I just wanted to say that I also think you should be very cautious when taking a psychiatric medication like Milnacipran. It's great that it helps you, but many things have helped people with POIS, which means they are probably just masking different symptoms and not attacking the cause, since said cause is still unknown. I suppose many medications that affect brain function and mood could make people with POIS feel better, that's what they're supposed to do in general, but they could have serious effects in the long run. Just saying you should maybe be cautious. I hope you won't be offended by this, it's your choice after all, but I personally think sex isn't that important as to take random psychiatric medications so we can have it, no matter what doctors think or say (we all know how effortlessly some of them prescribe meds, and none of them knows the slightest thing for sure about POIS yet). Best of luck to you, take care!
I would like to reflect on some points related to this discussion.
Hurray, and Jan use milnacipran not on a daily basis, but only as pre-medication before O. This has to be considered because this has less potential for long-term effects on the brain's neurotransmitters en receptors architecture. Taking an antidepressant daily for years will create a downregulation of receptors and alteration of neurotransmitters equilibrium that occasional use will not ( this will cause withdrawal if abruptly stopped). with occasional use, you can still have side effects, but between doses, your brain has time to, completely or in part, to go back to its natural physiology. From there, it is up to the patient and the doctor to evaluate the risks and side effects vs the benefits. That is why each member is responsible for what decisions he or she makes for managing his/her POIS symptoms. It is ok for BoneBroth and you to not be interested in this treatment for yourselves, and it is ok to express your concerns about this treatment. And, it is also ok if Hurray and Jan choose to go on with this method of relief because they consider that, for themselves, the benefits outweigh the risks and drawbacks. Their doctors are also there for supervision, so this can add a level of safety, even if not total protection, of course.
It is clear that this use is an off-label use ( any use of any medication for POIS is off-label - POIS does not exist in pharmacological treatments yet), but considering the current state of medical knowledge about POIS, this method is one among others, just like using niacin, propranolol, Mytelase, or other drugs or supplements. You mention avoiding sex totally, but in the case of men, total abstinence may be just partly possible, because of nocturnal emissions occurring after some time, depending on your age and your usual time interval. Do women with POIS have POIS symptoms from erotic dreams? I have no idea. But it is easier for men to have a planned, voluntary ejaculation at a known time after a known interval of time, with a preventive relief method to control symptoms, than ending up with a NE at a totally inappropriate time. What a nightmare to have a NE the night before a busy day or an important meeting or else !
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I got Milnacipran on a doctor's prescription. The doctor indicated he knew someone with Pois who also benefited from this. I don't think the doctor would have prescribed it if it was terrible for me. I only use one pill of 50 mg 1.5 hours before "the event." Not daily. It works well, no brain fog at all. Every time again! I've been using it for several weeks now. I suspect some mood swings, but brain fog is gone. I am very grateful to hurray.
Hi Jan,
I am glad that milnacipran works for you! Keep me updated, so, after 2 to 3 months of use, I can add you as a reference member in the Milnacipran section of the POIS Types Chart along with Hurray, if it is still working for you.
Is this doctor from Waldinger's team ? If he sees POIS patients, we could put his name on our POIS doctors list. Coud you send me his name in a private message, so I can contact him?
I think Hurray takes 25mg in prevention. Did you tried 25mg before going to 50mg ?
I took 25mg for a long time, for 2 reasons:
1) I experienced nausea if I took more than 25mg for the first 1-2 months of use
2) I have high blood pressure, and one of the specified side-effects of milnacipran is that it can raise your blood pressure
The nausea stopped happening after a while, and I've been monitoring my blood pressure closely and milnacipran doesn't seem to have a significant effect on my blood pressure, thankfully, although I would urge anyone else taking milnacipran to be aware of this potential issue.
I've gone up to 50mg now - it seems to increase the duration of milnacipran's protection - but I'd agree that 25mg is a good place to start to minimize any potential side-effects.
Thanks for these precisions, I will link to them in the Milanacipran section of the POIS types Chart, for the benefit of other members and their health professionals.
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Milnacipran (MIL) is a representative of a new class of antidepressants (SNRIs) which inhibit selectively the reuptake of serotonin and noradrenaline but, in contrast to tricyclics, show no affinity for neurotransmitter receptors. MIL was administered at a dose of 10 or 30 mg/kg p.o. once or repeatedly (twice daily for 14 days). MIL did not change the number or affinity (Bmax and KD) of a1-adrenergic receptors in the cerebral cortex for [3H]prazonsin, however, the ability of the a1-adrenoceptor agonist phenylephrine to compete for these sites was significantly enhanced. MIL given repeatedly (but not acutely) inhibited both the head twitch reaction induced by L-5-HTP or (+-)DOI, the effects mediated by serotonergic 5-HT2A receptors. The above results indicate that repeated MIL administration increases the responsiveness of a1-adrenergic system (behavioural and biochemical changes) and decreases the responsiveness of the serotonergic 5-HT2A receptors (especially behavioural changes) as tricyclics do. It may be concluded that the lack of MIL affinity for neurotransmitter receptors is of no importance to the development of adaptive changes in the studied systems, observed after repeated treatment with antidepressants.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s007020070022
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Well, I'm not the person you were replying to, I was just browsing the forum and came across this, but I just wanted to say that I also think you should be very cautious when taking a psychiatric medication like Milnacipran. It's great that it helps you, but many things have helped people with POIS, which means they are probably just masking different symptoms and not attacking the cause, since said cause is still unknown. I suppose many medications that affect brain function and mood could make people with POIS feel better, that's what they're supposed to do in general, but they could have serious effects in the long run. Just saying you should maybe be cautious. I hope you won't be offended by this, it's your choice after all, but I personally think sex isn't that important as to take random psychiatric medications so we can have it, no matter what doctors think or say (we all know how effortlessly some of them prescribe meds, and none of them knows the slightest thing for sure about POIS yet). Best of luck to you, take care!
Thank you for your thoughtful contribution, IronFeather.
At this point, it seems likely that there are many different types of POIS, as Quantum's comprehensive thread below discusses:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.0
It's entirely possible that there are many different "causes" of POIS, with O being the initial trigger which links all the different causes/symptoms. So I'd say that you CAN in theory directly address the cause of 1 or more types of POIS. And most common diseases have treatments that work for some patients and not for others, you would expect the same to be true for POIS.
I'm not encouraging anyone to take risks with their health. Quantum's earlier reply to you describes the issues involved with risk very well, I can't think of anything to add to that.
Best of luck to you too :)
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hurray, once again, congrats on your treatment!
"There are several drugs which boost norepinephrine, so why is milnacipran any different?"
Well, I have already tried several NRIs:
atomoxetine (Strattera) - uncomfortable feeling during O, brain fog remained
buproprion - made me feel jittery, brain fog remained
ritalin - gave me energy and focus before quickly building up tolerance, did not stop the brain fog
duloxetine - felt like bad flu, could not drive or work, withdrawal symptoms, too sick to accurately gauge brain fog
venlafaxine - felt like bad flu, could not drive or work, bad withdrawal symptoms, too sick to accurately gauge brain fog
The effects of duloxetine and venlafaxine (both SNRIs) were interesting. They made me feel terrible - there was no way that I could take them every day. But my POIS felt a bit different while I was on both drugs.
I read that duloxetine and venlafaxine don't have a powerful effect on norepinephrine at low doses. There was only a substantial norepinephrine reuptake inhibition effect at high doses.
Venlafaxine has potency at serotonin transporters which is about 30-fold greater than that at norepinephrine transporters while milnacipran has a similar potency at each transporter. Thus, at low doses, venlafaxine acts essentially as a SSRI, with significant noradrenergic activity only occurring at higher doses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819762/
Trying milnacipran, I was surprised to find that a low one-off dose was sufficient to completely stop the POIS brain fog that I have been accustomed to for so many years. I attributed this to the powerful effect that milnacipran has on norepinephrine reuptake inhibition.
Milnacipran also has multiple reports that it cured the brain fog of fibromyalgia sufferers.
I was planning to get Atomoxetine for my ADD. I'm curious - why didn't Atomoxetine help you. After all it is considered a pure NRI.
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hurray, once again, congrats on your treatment!
"There are several drugs which boost norepinephrine, so why is milnacipran any different?"
Well, I have already tried several NRIs:
atomoxetine (Strattera) - uncomfortable feeling during O, brain fog remained
buproprion - made me feel jittery, brain fog remained
ritalin - gave me energy and focus before quickly building up tolerance, did not stop the brain fog
duloxetine - felt like bad flu, could not drive or work, withdrawal symptoms, too sick to accurately gauge brain fog
venlafaxine - felt like bad flu, could not drive or work, bad withdrawal symptoms, too sick to accurately gauge brain fog
The effects of duloxetine and venlafaxine (both SNRIs) were interesting. They made me feel terrible - there was no way that I could take them every day. But my POIS felt a bit different while I was on both drugs.
I read that duloxetine and venlafaxine don't have a powerful effect on norepinephrine at low doses. There was only a substantial norepinephrine reuptake inhibition effect at high doses.
Venlafaxine has potency at serotonin transporters which is about 30-fold greater than that at norepinephrine transporters while milnacipran has a similar potency at each transporter. Thus, at low doses, venlafaxine acts essentially as a SSRI, with significant noradrenergic activity only occurring at higher doses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819762/
Trying milnacipran, I was surprised to find that a low one-off dose was sufficient to completely stop the POIS brain fog that I have been accustomed to for so many years. I attributed this to the powerful effect that milnacipran has on norepinephrine reuptake inhibition.
Milnacipran also has multiple reports that it cured the brain fog of fibromyalgia sufferers.
I was planning to get Atomoxetine for my ADD. I'm curious - why didn't Atomoxetine help you. After all it is considered a pure NRI.
That's a great question taurusthree. I try not to use pharmalogical jargon in my posts here, but my gut feeling is that is that milnacipran's NRI mechanism is somehow different from the other NRI/SNRI drugs that I have tried in the past.
I would not be surprised if in the future, another poiscenter.com member discovered an NRI/SNRI drug that worked for them as milnacipran works for me. I have found something that works for me, so I'm not really motivated to keep looking for new solutions. I'm not willing to deliberately ruin 3-4 days of my life to check to see if a new POIS drug candidate is effective :)
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I'm not willing to deliberately ruin 3-4 days of my life to check to see if a new POIS drug candidate is effective :)
Hi hurray,
That’s exactly how I feel when a new, attractive possibility comes up!
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is milnacipran still helping you? For all symptoms?
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is milnacipran still helping you? For all symptoms?
Yes, it is still as effective as ever :)
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is milnacipran still helping you? For all symptoms?
Yes, it is still as effective as ever :)
Great to hear!
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is milnacipran still helping you? For all symptoms?
Yes, it is still as effective as ever :)
Great to hear!
Thanks Demo :)
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is milnacipran still helping you? For all symptoms?
Yes, it is still as effective as ever :)
Great to hear!
Thanks Demo :)
My pleasure!
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Hurray, it is wonderful that Milnacipran has had a positive effect on your P.O.I.S. symptoms. I started taking Ritalin 10 MG twice a day after having an "O". I switched away from Adderall. It helps with concentration, but extreme fatigue and discomfort remain for a day or two. Do you take Milnacipran daily? Do you suffer from fatigue, and if so, does it improve the symptoms? Thanks!
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Hi followthrough!
I generally take milnacipran "on demand", 1.25 hours before the event, for maximum effect. POIS doesn't give me physical fatigue, but it certainly gives me mental fatigue, and milnacipran eradicates that.
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Guys just to inform you, after using Milnacipran 50mg for 1 month, it start's working for me 🎉 🎉 🎉 So my conclusion Milnacipran need time to fixes things.
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Guys just to inform you, after using Milnacipran 50mg for 1 month, it start's working for me ???? ???? ???? So my conclusion Milnacipran need time to fixes things.
That's good news, I'm glad milnacipran was able to help you. I've sometimes needed to take milnacipran several days in a row, and its effects do seem to accumulate over time.
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Could you please explain more how you take Milnacipran for mant days ? At what time exactly, untel you feel good ?
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Guys just to inform you, after using Milnacipran 50mg for 1 month, it start's working for me 🎉 🎉 🎉 So my conclusion Milnacipran need time to fixes things.
Hi fatmas, Is the effect still on?
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Interesting. If I take anti-histamines with pseudoephedrine they are more effective than anti-histamines alone (ie Allegra-D). Pseudoephedrine is a norepinephrine releasing agent.
"Pseudoephedrine acts on ?- and ?2-adrenergic receptors" Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine#Mechanism_of_action)
Activation of ?2-adrenergic receptors on mast cells is the primary pathway for adrenergic agents to inhibit mast cells.
Table 1 and chapter 5: Neuroendocrinology of mast cells: Challenges and controversies (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/exd.13288)
Milnacipran is used for fibromyalgia and fibromyalgia is associated/comorbid with mast cell activation disease.
what does this mean androgenic agent, is it means androgenic hormones like testosterone, its a molecule without bonds required to analyze a protein so it wont be interacting with a mast cell receptor, unless something went very wrong
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Men versus women on sexual brain function: Prominent differences during tactile genital stimulation, but not during orgasm (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/hbm.20733)
"The only prominent gender difference during orgasm was male-biased activation of the periaqueductal gray matter."
Periaqueductal Gray (https://sci-hub.se/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780123742360100100)
The neurobiology of central sensitization (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jabr.12137)
We have similarly shown that decreased connectivity to antinociceptive brain regions, such as the periaqueductal gray (PAG - a critical locus of descending analgesic pathways), predicts responsiveness to milnacipran, a serotonin norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3312.0
Perhaps the most consistent finding noted to date is a mild elevation in IL-8, which is a cytokine associated with sympathetic function
I wonder if these milnacipran responders have mild elevations of this cytokine.
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Could you please explain more how you take Milnacipran for mant days ? At what time exactly, untel you feel good ?
Hi famas! I was still taking it 75 minutes before O as normal, but since I was having several Os a week, I could feel it having a cumulative effect. Very interesting that it worked better for you when you took it daily - I wonder if other people could potentially benefit from a daily dose of milnacipran?
I try not to take it too often as my blood pressure is higher than average, something to bear in mind for anyone considering trying it.
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POIS doesn't give me physical fatigue, but it certainly gives me mental fatigue, and milnacipran eradicates that.
Above & below, very common complaints I’ve heard here for 16 years! Bold emphases mine.
…I find every aspect of [POIS] manageable/livable - except extreme fatigue, that can trail after O*, for days and weeks.
And fatigue, after extensive mental work…
I’m going to ask my POIS doctors about trying Milnacipran, hurray. Thank you.
50 years of POIS fatigue, and now I’m…exhausted! ;D
This week I found faster relief (in addition to my recent POIS-symptom improvements via regular TRT injections and other meds - - see my “Testosterone” thread) by sleeping for a huge chunk of the first 24 hours post-POIS-onset. Aided by Trazadone.
I’m very fortunate in that I’m retired and can “get away with that”!
Hi Demo, it would be interesting to hear what your POIS doctors thought about using milnacipran to treat POIS. I've posted before that I believe its strong NRI (norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) qualities are what makes it work for me - I believe that it's stopping my norepinephrine levels from dropping too much following an O.
If your doctors give you the go-ahead and you decide to try it, I wish you the very best of luck :)
Sleeping is an underrated tool in the fight against POIS - for all the years I've had POIS, late night Os have resulted in better outcomes than daytime Os, and sleep is probably the reason for that.
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This week I found faster relief (in addition to my recent POIS-symptom improvements via regular TRT injections and other meds - - see my “Testosterone” thread) by sleeping for a huge chunk of the first 24 hours post-POIS-onset. Aided by Trazadone.
I’m very fortunate in that I’m retired and can “get away with that”!
Sleeping is an underrated tool in the fight against POIS - for all the years I've had POIS, late night Os have resulted in better outcomes than daytime Os, and sleep is probably the reason for that.
This week, hurray, I’m abandoning my “POIS SLEEP” strategy! It’s making me excessively groggy and I think it’s prolonging my POIS symptoms.
I’m now trying a “POIS AWAKE” strategy, with lots of caffeine and an increased dose of daily Cialis. The combined stimulant effect along with NO DAYTIME SLEEPING (with the exception of a nap-but-not-sleep-med-aided) I hope will speed up the sluggish refractory period, which I believe is at the heart of my POIS problem.
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This week, hurray, I’m abandoning my “POIS SLEEP” strategy! It’s making me excessively groggy and I think it’s prolonging my POIS symptoms.
I’m now trying a “POIS AWAKE” strategy, with lots of caffeine and an increased dose of daily Cialis. The combined stimulant effect along with NO DAYTIME SLEEPING (with the exception of a nap-but-not-sleep-med-aided) I hope will speed up the sluggish refractory period, which I believe is at the heart of my POIS problem.
Yes, too much sleep can have a negative effect even without POIS. And your body seems to "remember" when you took a nap at an unusual time yesterday, and can unhelpfully make you want to fall asleep at the same time every day :)
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This week, hurray, I’m abandoning my “POIS SLEEP” strategy! It’s making me excessively groggy and I think it’s prolonging my POIS symptoms.
I’m now trying a “POIS AWAKE” strategy, with lots of caffeine and an increased dose of daily Cialis. The combined stimulant effect along with NO DAYTIME SLEEPING (with the exception of a nap-but-not-sleep-med-aided) I hope will speed up the sluggish refractory period, which I believe is at the heart of my POIS problem.
Yes, too much sleep can have a negative effect even without POIS. And your body seems to "remember" when you took a nap at an unusual time yesterday, and can unhelpfully make you want to fall asleep at the same time every day :)
Very helpful re. “nap memory”, hurray!
Now that you pointed it out, I’ll try to resist that urge - - if I don’t really “need” that nap!
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Hurray, to compare and contrast, I am updating that I no longer am experimenting with Ritalin or Adderall due to drug shortages. My neurologist prescribed me a generic version of Nuvigil called armodafinil. It is a wakefulness agent that in theory, should deter extreme fatigue. It is not an amphetamine like adderall. I will keep you posted but so far, mixed results. Helps keep me alert but still symptoms linger for 1 to 2 days.
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Hello everyone, I am a Chinese, found that the Minaprol is effective for me. After taking the first masturbation POIS symptoms were very small, but then the second masturbation after the occurrence of dizziness and other POIS symptoms (but still better than before taking medicine), I would like to ask if there is a way to make up.
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Is there any withdrawal effect involved when you stop abruptly with milnacipran?
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Hello everyone, I am a Chinese, found that the Minaprol is effective for me. After taking the first masturbation POIS symptoms were very small, but then the second masturbation after the occurrence of dizziness and other POIS symptoms (but still better than before taking medicine), I would like to ask if there is a way to make up.
Hello, I am also a Chinese. I took 50mg Minapram for one month under the guidance of a psychiatrist, which is effective, but limited. Now I have added 75mg Minapram and am observing. I previously suffered from severe anxiety and depression, and taking escitalopram and bupropion had only a slight effect on POIs or mood. Vortexetine had a good effect on my mood, but the improvement in brain fog was not significant, while milnacipran had a significant effect on symptoms. However, anxiety and depression were worse compared to taking Vortexetine. I plan to discuss this with my doctor after another month. I have undergone 20 ganglion blocks, but the help has been limited.
anyway, milnacipran is the best drug for brainfog for me sl far.
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Minalapril is still effective for me. My symptom duration has been reduced from 6 days to 3 days, while bupropion, escitalopram, and vortioxetine do not have such good effects
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Minalapril is still effective for me. My symptom duration has been reduced from 6 days to 3 days, while bupropion, escitalopram, and vortioxetine do not have such good effects
The doctor said I have a tendency towards bipolar disorder, so he added sodium valproate to me