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The following post describe an immune therapy that I designed and administered to myself. This therapy is patterned after immune therapies that have been studied for the treatment of cancers and viral diseases. It has been tailored to improve the typical experience of POIS sufferers based on the work of N. Jiang, et. al. (2015) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453) and P. Haake et. al. (2004) (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Uwe_Hartmann/publication/8395744_Effects_of_Sexual_Arousal_on_Lymphocyte_Subset_Circulation_and_Cytokine_Production_in_Man/links/00b7d52f8e1b80712a000000.pdf) as well as medical test posted to Medical Test Results (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0) and discussions (public and private) from POIScenter forum.
- Normal immune sexual response (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31888#msg31888)
- Aberrant Immune Suppression and Immune Tolerance (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31889#msg31889)
- Immune Suppression model of POIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31889#msg31890)
- Therapy Targets (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31889#msg31892)
- Possible solution: Immune Competence Therapy (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31889#msg31893)
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1. Normal immune sexual response:
In the paper, "Effects of Sexual Arousal on Lymphocyte Subset Circulation and Cytokine Production in Man (http://Effects of Sexual Arousal on Lymphocyte Subset Circulation and Cytokine Production in Man)" they found that of the most common lymphocytes, natural killer (NK, CD56, CD57) cells experience the greatest increase in the blood circulation by sexual activity and appear to peak around the time of orgasm. While a small increase in (CD8) T cells was measured, (CD4) T cells and B cells do not change significantly during coital behavior.
(https://i.imgur.com/6u2i9Sq.png)
"the orgasm induced a moderate but statistically significant transient elevation of the cytotoxic/suppressor T cell (CD3+CD8+) numbers (Fig. 2). In contrast, the absolute numbers of T cells (CD3+), T helper cells (CD3+CD4+), and B cells (CD3-CD20+) were not affected by sexual stimulation...the levels of LPS-induced proinflammatory cytokines (IL-6, TNF-alpha) remained unaffected by masturbation-induced orgasm...The effects of orgasm on peripheral lymphocyte subsets were restricted to NK cells and had minor or no effects on T or B cell subsets and showed no effects on (IL-6, TNF-alpha) cytokine production, indicating limited and selective effects of orgasm on immune system functions in parallel with its selective and short-lived neuroendocrine effects." -Effects of Sexual Arousal on Lymphocyte Subset Circulation and Cytokine Production in Man (P Haake, U Hartmann, et al., 2004) (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Uwe_Hartmann/publication/8395744_Effects_of_Sexual_Arousal_on_Lymphocyte_Subset_Circulation_and_Cytokine_Production_in_Man/links/00b7d52f8e1b80712a000000.pdf)
During sex, the immune system is enhanced because beta-endorphins block the immune suppression effects of adrenaline/noradrenaline. Beta-endorphin also stimulates the innate immune response to viruses and inhibits viral replication. See: Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1655824), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8227310)
For example:
"We found that beta-endorphin but not dynorphin could stimulate NK cell activity... beta-endorphin appears to be one of the signals that is induced in the brain at the CS recall step of the conditioned response to trigger the elevation of NK cell activity."
-Expression of the conditioned NK cell activity is beta-endorphin dependent (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7620901)
The activity of, NK cells are believed to be upregulated by endorphins, dopamine, serotonin and nitric oxide in the following way:
(https://i.imgur.com/U5rAsV1.png)
Ultimately, serotonin and nitric oxide participate in a complex sequence of immune signaling where by melatonin, IL-12, IL-2 and prolactin produce an expansion in the number and activity of NK cells.
The most "successful" pathogens remain latent (hidden) in the body and selectively reactivate their replication whenever bodily fluids are being exchanged from person-to-person. Some sexually transmitted infections (STIs, STDs) trigger reactivation from the same neurotransmitters that trigger semen ejaculation (epinephrine and norepinephrine) (post1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10873779), post2 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg27041#msg27041), post3 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg28303#msg28303), post4 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg31548#msg31548)). So the pathogen replication is syncronized to the exchange of bodily fluids (saliva, sweat, semen).
The increase in NK cells during sex is needed to suppress these STDs and prevent the spread of infections during sexual fluid exchange. These immune cells are one of the bodies most efficient killers of pathogens (earning the name Natural Killer cells).
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2. Immune Suppression and Immune Tolerance:
The female genital tract is highly dense with immune cells that aggressively kill any thing with foreign DNA (including harmful bacteria, viruses and sperm). So semen contains a high density immune signalling molecules such as prostaglandins (prostate-gland-in), spermidine and spermine. These signalling molecules increase the likelihood that his sperm will fertilize her eggs by suppressing the immune system (including NK cells) in her genital/vaginal tract. Over time her immune system learns (through spermadine/spermine signalling) to tolerate the man's DNA and sperm without forming an immune response. This is called immune tolerance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_tolerance).
However, if these immunosupressing molecules (PGE2, spermidine, spermine, etc...) increase in other parts of the body during sexual activity, they could suppress the protective NK cell function and ultimately allow pathogens to reactivate. Certain viruses such as HSV-1, HSV-2, VZV and CMV encourage this scenerio by upregulating the COX-2 arachidonic acid enzyme in their latent host cells. So these viruses modify the cellular enzymes (i.e. COX) to make their own replication favorable.
(https://i.imgur.com/2AGwpKM.png)
Note that PGE2 induced upregulation of arginase leads to L-arginine and nitric oxide depletion. This is because arginase decreases the available pool of L-arginine for Nitric Oxide Synthase (NOS). As a result, high arginase levels are associated with epithelia and endothelial dysfuction. The PGE2 induced upregulation of IDO1 leads to the depletion of Tryptophan and serotonin. Decreases in serotonin leads to a decrease in melatonin (sleep quality) and N-acetylserotonin (antidepressant). While increases in kynurenine contribute to immune tolerance.
When NK cell function is suppressed, it can lead to an increase in inflammatory chemokines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemokine) and a dependence on CD8 T cells to perform the anti-viral (or anti-bacterial) functions of NK cells. Relative to NK cells, CD8 T cells have a slower pathogen-killing response which delays the clearance of the pathogen. (click image to get full size)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZVEm2nO.png)
Figure 4 from: "Deciphering the role of DC subsets in MCMV infection to better understand immune protection against viral infections (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25120535)"
A suppression of NK cells (low NK) causes inflammatory pathogen-based disease (CD8 w/o NK), while a healthy NK response (NK) prevents symptoms (CD8 w NK: grey):
(https://i.imgur.com/TsPLV8o.jpg)
Abstract Figure from: "Human Natural Killer Cells Prevent Infectious Mononucleosis Features by Targeting Lytic Epstein-Barr Virus Infection (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211124713007250)"
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3. Immune Suppression/Immune Tolerance model of POIS
Many theories of POIS center around an assumption that the immune cells are too active and need to be suppressed or stabilized. Here, I present the exact opposite theory, namely that cytotoxic innate immune cells, such as natural killer (NK, CD56 or CD57) cells are not active enough and need to be increased. NK cells are protective against the reactivation of latent infection. It is the absence of a competent innate (NK) immune response that causes increased inflammatory chemokine release due to uncontrolled pathogen replication. In other words, POISers experience a temporary immuno-compromised state triggered by certain neurohormones (adrenaline, PGE2, etc...) of the sexual response cycle.
In the paper "Immunophenotypical Characterization of a Brazilian POIS patient (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2019.1677835?journalCode=usmt20)", the POIS patient was found to be deficient in cytotoxic natural killer (NK) cells and B lymphocyte cells, and an over expression of monocytes. The aurthors of this paper also note that:
"Some studies have shown a decrease of NK cell percentage in association with a reduction of activity of these cells in peripheral blood of patients with depression. Other mental disorders such as mental stress, autism and obsessive-compulsive disorder have also been reported to present lower NK cell activity."
The deficiency in Natural Killers indicates that immune suppression could be preventing this patient from forming a competent immune response. The deficiency in B cells may indicate that immune tolerance is preventing humoral immunity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humoral_immunity) from correcting the problem associated with POIS. Without a competent humoral/memory immunity, the immune system treats the reactivation of latent infections as if it is a new/acute infection. One of the main signaling roles of spermine and kynurenine is to induce immune tolerance to foreign substances and DNA. This immune tolerance can inhibit the formation of cytotoxic T cell memory of pathogens and prevent a competent humoral response.
Since, most POISers recover from POIS in the 5 to 7 day range. The time kinetics of NK, T, B cells seems to suggest that, in the absence of an immunocompetent NK response, POIS recovery is correlated with the time-dependent expansion of non-memory CD8+ T cells.
(https://i.imgur.com/B1vraoO.png)
Figure 7 from: Global Transcriptome Analysis in Influenza-Infected Mouse Lungs Reveals the Kinetics of Innate and Adaptive Host Immune Responses (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22815957)
This time-dependent increase in CD8 T cells occurs during sleep (How Sleep Fights Infection: Snoozing Makes Killer Immune Cells More Sticky (https://www.forbes.com/sites/fionamcmillan/2019/02/12/how-sleep-fights-infection-snoozing-makes-killer-immune-cells-more-sticky/#4ced31b227cd)). So, the sooner sleep occurs following orgasm, the sooner CD8 T cells can start replacing the function of NK cells in the immune response. Moreover, sleep deprivation has been shown to suppress NK cells in humans (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7871104), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25929826), Ref3 (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/01/980126060431.htm)). So good sleep is vital for immune function and recovery from POIS.
So this immune suppression model predicts that normal (non-POIS) people rely upon a transient increase in NK cell activity to suppress latent infections, while POISers rely upon the slower CD8 T cell increase to control those same latent infections. This means that POISers should experience a (days-long) elevation in chemokines due to the delay in time that it takes the adaptive (non-memory) T cells to respond. Transient PGE2 release induces the arginase-1 and IDO1 mediated suppression of innate cells (namely Natural Killers).
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4. Therapy Targets
Adenylyl cyclase
Adenylyl cyclase is an enzyme that produces cyclic AMP (cAMP) from the basic energy substrate ATP. Norepinephrine (norepinephrine) and epinephrine (adrenaline) bind to beta-adrenergic receptors to activate adenylyl cyclase. Prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) also activates adenylyl cyclase. This adenylyl cyclase activation causes an increase in cAMP. Herpes viruses reactivate when rising cAMP levels induce arginase activity in infected cells (see Ideas on Herpes Induced POIS (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.0)). Cyclic AMP stimulates the up-regulation of arginase-1, while cyclic GMP does not stimulate arginase-1. There are direct and indirect inhibitors of adenylyl cyclase. Flush niacin, acetylcholine, dopamine and beta-endorphins inhibit adenylyl cyclase indirectly through Gi coupled protein receptors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gi_alpha_subunit#Receptors).
(https://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~gardner/F20-18.GIF)
From: Cardiac Muscle Contraction (https://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~gardner/cardiac_muscle_contraction.htm)
"The addition of exogenous nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) to isolated rat fat cells at concentrations between 1 and 10 μmol markedly inhibited the rise in cyclic AMP accumulation due to norepinephrine...NMN was as potent as nicotinamide while nicotinic acid (flush niacin) was 100- to 500fold more effective than either compound as an inhibitor of cyclic AMP accumulation."
-Effect of NAD, nicotinamide and nicotinic acid on cyclic AMP accumulation by fat cells (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00498989)
- Caffeine directly inhibits adenylyl cyclase by competitive binding to the location (active site) where ATP interacts.
- Nicotinic acid (flush-niacin) inhibits adenylyl cyclase through the GPR109A receptor (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20460384))
- Dopamine inhibits adenylyl cyclase through the D2 dopamine receptor
- Endorphins inhibits adenylyl cyclase through the opioid receptors
- acetylcholine inhibits adenylyl cyclase through the (M2, M4) Muscarinic acetylcholine receptor
Not every cell-type expresses these receptors and the corresponding neurohormones are only effective in localized portions of the body expressing these receptors. So an infected cell that does not express the opioid receptors will not be affected by beta-endorphin. While reactivation of infections in cells expressing these receptors may be suppress by beta-endorphin. However, the inhibition of adenylyl cyclase by caffeine is direct and does not depend on a Gi based receptor. So caffeine can act more universally across all cell types to block cyclic AMP production from beta-adrenergic and prostaglandin signalling.
N Jiang (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453) suggested that a lack of endorphin signaling is a necessary feature of POIS manifestation. The endorphin receptors are adenylyl cyclase inhibitors.
Arginase
Arginase produces the polyamines spermidine and spermine from L-arginine. Spermine suppresses the immune system and prevents immune cells from killing pathogens. Spermine also increases the rate that viral DNA can be replicated. Some viruses (like herpes) chronically up-regulate arginase through COX-2 and other genetic signaling (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24442486), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31177351)).
"Many viruses have been shown to require polyamines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamine#Natural_polyamines) for one or more aspects of their replication cycle, including DNA and RNA polymerization, nucleic acid packaging, and protein synthesis...Inhibition of polyamine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamine#Natural_polyamines) synthesis with difluoromethylornithine (DFMO) results in a block of both HSV and HCMV replication." -Polyamines and Their Role in Virus Infection (https://mmbr.asm.org/content/81/4/e00029-17)
Arginase also disrupts endothelial (blood vessel) barrier function:
"...Putrescine, spermidine and spermine, given individually, were found to disrupt Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) integrity within 15 min of i.c.v. administration...When injected into the carotid artery, rapid increase in BBB permeability was found 1 min after putrescine and spermidine..." -Polyamines induce blood-brain barrier disruption and edema formation in the rat (1996) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8983332)
Arginase activity produces urea as a waste product so urea in the blood and may be a relevant biomarker of POIS.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZGmYnWX.png)
cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2)
COX activity can increase protaglandin E2 (PGE2) production. PGE2 activates adenylyl cyclase leading to cyclic AMP increases. This process then induces immune suppression of NK and T (CD8) cells. Inhibiting COX and PGE2 activity has be shown to increase NK cell numbers and activity (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2432415), Ref2 (https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpregu.1999.276.5.R1496), Ref3 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01741405)). It has also been shown that inhibiting COX has the effect of increasing beta-endorphin stimulating activity.
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5. Possible solution: Immune Competence Therapy
The purpose of this therapy is to boost the immune system by increasing the cytotoxic activity of (neutrophils, lymphocytes and monocyte derived cells). The goal is to produce long-term improvements in the health by promoting increased immune activity (i.e. immune competence). This therapy is not focused on symptom reduction. Symptoms related to immune activation may both increase and decrease for short periods of time depending on the nature and location of pathogenic infections in the body. Once immune competence is established, this therapy should no longer be needed to sustain lasting improvements in health. If you are likely to quite the therapy as soon as symptoms of immune activation occur, this is not the therapy or treatment for you.
I. prevent transient immune suppression (prepack, 90min prior)
caffeine (150mg)
citrulline malate or citrulline nitrate (3g)
N-acetyl-tyrosine (200mg) (https://c4energy.com/products/c4-ultimate)
theanine (300mg)
II. immune activation stack (cycle - 6 days on, 4 days off, for ~5 months or until symptom remission)
**Warning: This therapy is designed to increase the total number of white blood cells and may (or should) increase the occurrence of some illness symptoms over a short-term period of time. The increased feeling of illness may last for several weeks. Cycling off the stack can reduce feelings of illness and improve immune response to the stack. However, fatigue, irritability and brain-fog are not expected to result from this therapy.**
Immuno Complex(R) by Quality of Life(R) (source 1 (https://www.amazon.com/Premium-AHCC-Complex-ImmunoComplex-Andrographis/dp/B00H4GXZUU/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=ahcc&qid=1575303019&sr=8-7), source 2 (https://qualityoflife.net/collections/immune-support/products/immuno-complex)):
(15 - 20 min before each meal / three times daily, requires food)
- active hexose correlated compounds (AHCC)
- zinc methionine
- copper oxide
- vitamin C (liposomal)
- vitamin D3
- Andrographis
beta-glucan (1g) (https://www.amazon.com/Bulksupplements-Beta-Glucan-Powder-Grams/dp/B01BMUZGSM/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_2_2/143-2693895-0728948?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01BMUZGSM&pd_rd_r=1e0dc790-dcca-4f93-87e4-ec7f4d021889&pd_rd_w=RSzOx&pd_rd_wg=KMp6o&pf_rd_p=7dbb7d55-f8a0-4d7b-84e2-fe1c6913e19d&pf_rd_r=REJ27T1DPHF2N73QRA5K&refRID=REJ27T1DPHF2N73QRA5K&th=1)
copper gluconate (2mg, empty stomach)
III. Broad Spectrum Pathogen load reduction
**This is designed to kill pathogens in the body without needing to know which pathogenic infections are present.**
Intravenous ascorbate (vitamin C drip 5g, repeated three consecutive days) (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)
copper gluconate (2mg repeated three consecutive days, >3hrs prior to IV ascorbate)
IV. Epithelial barrier repair
folate (< 200mcg, every other day)
Liposomal vitamin C (https://www.amazon.com/DACHA-Nutrition-Natural-Liposomal-Vitamin/dp/B07DR13XSX/ref=sxts_sxwds-bia?crid=ZYNAPKHH7RX9&keywords=liposomal+vitamin+c&pd_rd_i=B07DR13XSX&pd_rd_r=3034be9c-d9d9-4590-9faf-a833cc5de66a&pd_rd_w=49Rf3&pd_rd_wg=1sXR9&pf_rd_p=1cb3f32a-ccfd-479b-8a13-b22f56c942c6&pf_rd_r=802MVAE1ZTX7QS2BPFJ5&psc=1&qid=1575490851&sprefix=liposoma%2Caps%2C160) (1g, twice daily)
Notes:
This therapy is not the exact therapy that I did because I was experimenting with a lot of stuff and I'm sure most of it did not have any lasting benefit to my POIS. The Immune Competence Therapy shown above is basically the lessons learned and what I would do if I had to do it all over from the beginning. (post1 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg31907#msg31907), post2 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3014.msg31065#msg31065)). I have taken all of these supplements during my recovery from POIS.
When stimulating the innate immune system (NK cells, neutrophils, etc...), these cell do not differentiate between infections that affect POIS and infections that do not affect POIS. A competent immune system will attempt to clear all pathogens in the body, not just pathogens which make POIS worse. This should be kept in mind if you experience signs of temporary immune activation in areas of the body which are not associated with your typical POIS symptoms.
prevent transient immune suppression:
I currently believe that adenylyl cyclase activation is THE essential step to triggering POIS in infected sympathetic neurons. Adenylyl cyclase is activated by PGE2, epinephrine and norepinephrine. Adenylyl cyclase is deactivated (inhibited) by dopamine D2 and opioid (endorphin) receptors (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31892#msg31892)). Caffeine is a natural adenylate cyclase inhibitor and an arginase-1 suppressor (post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31892#msg31892)). However, caffeine also has many other pharmacological targets such as PDEs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphodiesterase), xanthine oxidase and adenosine receptors. So caffeine should be timed ~90min prior to orgasm to avoid side-effects from other targets. Theanine has been shown to enhance NK cell and T cell killing function and improve the outcomes of various infection and cancer related disease (Ref (https://www.mdpi.com/2306-5710/2/2/13)). Theanine also prevents caffeine jitters.
Citrulline malate should only be taken with an arginase inhibitor. Arginine is not a replacement for cirtulline. Without an arginase inhibitor, L-Arginine supplements could make POIS worse due to spermine production.
Indomethacin is know to increase NK cell number and activity by inhibiting prostaglandin induced immune suppression (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2432415), Ref2 (https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpregu.1999.276.5.R1496), Ref3 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01741405)). Indomethacin has antiviral, antibacterial and anticancer properties due to this increase in NK cells. Indomethacin (with prepack, 50mg, 2.5hrs, only for the first two weeks) can be used as a quick immune stimulant to speed up results. If you take indomethacin, you should also take the antioxidants selenium and vitamin C (i.e. selenmethionine - 200 micrograms and ascobate-vitC - 500mg).
The research indicates that antioxidants like selenomethionine and vitamin C detoxify indomethacin (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21532324), Ref2 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jfbc.12808), Ref3 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23456451), Ref4 (https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpgi.00125.2012)).
The below figure shows the dose timing for pre-packs. tstart is when the dosing starts. tmax is ideally when sexual activity should begin. t1/2 is the (half-life) window.
(https://i.imgur.com/vyxg6r7.png)
immune activation stack:
Immuno Complex(R) by Quality of Life(R) is one supplement containing AHCC, zinc, copper, vitamin C, vitamin D3 and andrographis. AHCC stimulates NK cells and dendritic cells (Ref1 (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01635580801993280), Ref2 (https://biosalve.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Immunity-Review-2011.pdf)), while beta-glucan stimulates neutrophils and B lymphocytes (Ref3 (https://www.jci.org/articles/view/118777), Ref4 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26519534)).
Vitamin C and vitamin D3 are absolutely required for health immune function.
Copper has a strong antimicrobial and antiviral effect (Ref1 (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6b54/b177828eb08ba6f4724eac4843afbd1ae54b.pdf)). When taking copper, there is a small possibility of a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarisch%E2%80%93Herxheimer_reaction) due to intestinal infections dying rapidly.
Epithelial barrier repair:
The epithelial cell barriers surround every organ in the body and perform a quarantine role of preventing infections (and toxins) from spreading from one organ to the next. When experiencing chronic infection, the epithelial layers can be damaged by the pathogen (or the related inflammation), allowing the pathogen to spread. The spreading pathogen can then cause problems in new parts of the body. For example, a pathogen in the brain can damage the blood brain barrier (BBB endothelium). This allows the pathogen to leave the brain, travel through the blood and damage the epithelial cells of the intestines or the heart. Even after the pathogen is contained and/or removed from the body, the lingering damage to the organs can still cause problems (symptoms) from incomplete healing. Vitamin C and B9 work together with the immune cells to promote wound healing. Vitamin C stimulates collagen production, and vitamin B9 (folate) promotes DNA methylation. The white blood cells clear out the damaged cells by inducing autophagy, apoptosis and phagocytosis. These immune cells also release the proper growth factors to restore new epithelial cells to the damaged barrier.
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Hi nanna1,
my use of IDO and TDO inhibitors to prevent the up-regulating of kynurenine formation is along the same lines as your current hypothesis. I focused more on the excessive formation of toxic kynurenine products and on tryptophan depletion for serotonin biosynthesis, but both approaches are additives rather than exclusive. You also add the arginase 1/spermidin branch, too.
I totally agree that POIS would be more a immune "malfunction" than an over-active immune system.
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Possible Solutions
*under construction*
COX inhibitor indomethacin, gallic acid
arginine prodrug: citrulline malate
arginase inhibitors: caffeine, gallic acid..
Tried all of these and non of them did anything.
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Found this interesting and will dump it here: IDO: a double-edged sword for TH1/TH2 regulation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628165/)
''Thus, IDO-activated Treg cells will subsequently suppress antigen-induced TH cell responses in a ?time delayed manner?. IDO-induced Treg cells may therefore contribute to the negative-feedback suppression of T cell responses. But the difference from IDO-directly suppressive role on T cells is that Treg cells inhibit both TH1 and TH2 type immune responses. In addition to inhibition of specific TH1 and TH2 responses, IDO-induced Treg may also mediate bystander suppression of cellular immune responses to ?the third party antigens?
My Th1 and Th2 cytokines seem to drop down after ejaculation if you look at the second time I measured them. There is no Th1/Th2 reciprocal cytokine release noticeable. Tregs can inhibit both responses via IDO.
Some other notes:
Stress can induce similar symptoms in me as POIS and aggravates POIS. Stress hormones act on TDO. My levels of cytokines IL-1, IL-6, TNF-alpha stay normal during POIS, these act on IDO instead of TDO.
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Found this interesting and will dump it here: IDO: a double-edged sword for TH1/TH2 regulation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2628165/)
''Thus, IDO-activated Treg cells will subsequently suppress antigen-induced TH cell responses in a 'time delayed manner'. IDO-induced Treg cells may therefore contribute to the negative-feedback suppression of T cell responses..."
I would agree that Treg and myeloid-derived suppressor cells (MDSC) mediate much of the immune suppression caused by spermine and kynurenine!
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Possible Solutions
*under construction*
COX inhibitor indomethacin, gallic acid
arginine prodrug: citrulline malate
arginase inhibitors: caffeine, gallic acid..
Tried all of these and non of them did anything.
In this line of reasoning, as your case is an inflammation in a smooth tissue (urethra) I believe that corticosteroids should work.
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I don't think my urethra issues are related to POIS Fernando, because it can still bother me when I'm out of POIS. Also the last test I did showed normal mucus level in the urethra even though I still had slight burning. It's probably something unrelated.
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POIS will stay with you as long as you have any signs of inflammation. And there are other factors that will remind your immune system of this trauma: Low dopamine and serotonin. Unfortunately (my opinion). :(
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hi nanna1, i could say i also noticed correlation between POIS condition and pre-workout packs
I have never attached importance but after your post im looking for consistency of those mixes and the most powerful ingridients are citrulline malate 8g and 320mg of caffeine.
so, it was about 30-40% relief.
But, just wanna add some comment:
-My POIS has developed slowly, it took 3 days to revocer on the start 5 years ago, 7-10 day 2 years ago but now it never ends, just becoming stronger after powerful stimulation or eujaculation
how can you include that fact to your theory about CD8+ T cells expansion?
-i also have only cognitive symptoms but their power is really frightful, its so much brainfog and cognitive impairment all the time so i cant really contact people cause of that.
-i have unidentified rheuamothoid arhtritis but i havenot any markers of that except CRP so my hips and knees are a little bit inflamed all the time but it started 2 years before POIS
hello worldwide sufferers from Russia :)
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Nebraska
I believe you will benefit from taking a long-term anti-inflammatory treatment and during this period stay in celibacy as long as you can.
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Forgive me for the pessimism, but all reasonings lead the same way:
Treat the cause of the inflammation. As this process is difficult, we end up falling into the same treatment that is the use of anti inflammatory drugs. And there's the fact that mental stress, low dopamine, and low serotonin are potential enhancers.
We know that prolonged use of prostaglandin and histamine inhibitors is risky. This vicious cycle seems to lead to the conclusion that POIS is a consequence rather than the cause and if it does not treat the cause there will be no cure.
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-i have unidentified rheuamothoid arhtritis but i havenot any markers of that except CRP so my hips and knees are a little bit inflamed all the time but it started 2 years before POIS.
Enhanced interferon gamma response contributes to disease remission in Rheumatoid Arthritis. (https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/1_Supplement/45.18)
Interferon Gamma Suppresses Collagen-Induced Arthritis by Regulation of Th17 through the Induction of Indoleamine-2,3-Deoxygenase (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0060900)
Mechanisms of Disease: the link between RANKL and arthritic bone disease (https://www.nature.com/articles/ncprheum0036)
''RANKL, through its ability to stimulate osteoclast formation and activity, is a critical mediator of bone resorption and overall bone density. Overproduction of RANKL is implicated in a variety of degenerative bone diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis and psoriatic arthritis.''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RANKL#Clinical_significance
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update:
i have some meds that make me feel better and have some make me feel worse
none of antiflammatory drugs have effect on my POIS, for me its 100% no correlation
my arthritis and POIS are not correlated in symptoms. i can ejuaculate 50 times in a day but my inflammatin willnot get worse. just cognitive impairment
i believe somewhere fundamentally that things are related but not through stuff that can be depleted by NSAID and oters antiinflammatory
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Many theories of POIS center around an assumption that the immune cells are too active and need to be suppressed. Here, I present the EXACT OPOSITE THEORY,
Well, me also suspecting this a long time ago, i would like to know-
is it in question supressed imune system, i can feel that it is.
But is this to all poisers???
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2136.msg27037#msg27037
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3098.msg31025#msg31025
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23835#msg23835
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg26010#msg26010
I did read that one man on nackedscientists tryed imunosuppresants to test
this theory and didnt work:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.16680 and some of them ended crached after.
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...the most powerful ingridients are citrulline malate 8g and 320mg of caffeine.
so, it was about 30-40% relief.
Hi nebraska,
I would not take more than 130mg of caffeine in any one day. Also, it may be good to stay under 4g of citrulline. The 320mg of caffeine could be a problem a person who has pre-existing heart problems and lead to jitters. Too much citrulline could lead to nitrogen imbalance.
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Hi Nana, what did you done to improve yours imunodefiency, neutropenia,
and "NK" cels response of inate imunity?
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nanna1 or nanna
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The immune therapy that I was doing can be found here: Immune competency therapy (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31893#msg31893)
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really nice work, nanna.
thank you for your efforts.
i was trying a supplement IP-6 for a 3 weeks.i was made it in a line with my iron-overload theory(i have high levels of total serum iron but low-middle transferrin saturation and low levels of ferritin) and my pois started about the time when i was using oral iron supplementation(i have a theory that pois is a result of wrong digestion and Fenton's reagent cause of that in my body, oxidative stress).
So, ip-6 is a great immune stimulator and it made my joints a loooot inflamed in a level i couldnot move
so i cant follow this method
but i had a little improvement in my pois conditions due that so( i dont know its a result of iron chelation or immune activation )
i have some improvement also with supplements that reduces access iron to tissues(ala, quercetin)
update: however i could suppose that all my cognitive problems(endogenious depression preceding pois) started with prep sulfasalazine(immunosuppresor) but i had canceled it 3 years ago - my immune system had come back(joints inflamed) but pois didnot managed
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Hi Nanna1,
Wow. For the subset of POISER's who feel the immune response is involved in POIS, I think it is seriously worth validating your hypothesis.
I'll try to get the lymphocyte panel test done. Am I correct in understanding that this test will be enough to reveal the state of the innate immune system? The panel measures absolute NK cells and absolute levels of various other T/B lymphocytes.
How to check non-memory T cell counts?
Also are IgM antibodies from B cells considered part of the innate immune response? Per your model, if pathogen reactivation is treated as a new infection would B cell IgM antibody (non-specific) also rise from day 4-5?
In my case I feel the immune response within a few minutes sometimes in just a couple hours. I always thought because the innate immune response reacted immediately after an ejaculation that's why I felt an immune response that quickly. But your model proposes that the innate immune system itself is suppressed. So per your model, if the innate immune cells are suppressed what part of the immune response could be the reason that makes us feel sick in a short time?
Maybe my questions are really dumb! I am trying to see if lab tests can reveal something about innate immune system suppression in my case. I think I need to specifically check my blood urea and neutrophils the day after an O. But the many times I had tested for urea or WBC counts - neutrophils/basophils/eosonophils/monocytes/lymphocytes (not specifically tested for days I was having POIS) there had been nothing abnormal in my test results.
Thanks.
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In my case I feel the immune response within a few minutes sometimes in just a couple hours. I always thought because the innate immune response reacted immediately after an ejaculation that's why I felt an immune response that quickly. But your model proposes that the innate immune system itself is suppressed. So per your model, if the innate immune cells are suppressed what part of the immune response could be the reason that makes us feel sick in a short time?
Hi kingfisher, sorry for the late reply. That is an awesome question! I think that it is mainly Natural Killer cells that are blocked in POIS. But other innate cells (monocytes, macrophages, etc...) are not blocked. Let me explain:
Basically, I think that the POIS hypothesis in the following paper is correct but incomplete:
"Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS) in a Chinese Man: No Proof for IgE‐Mediated Allergy to Semen (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453)" (Jia Yin, et al, 2015)
In that Jia Yin et. al. paper, they focus mostly on showing that IgE allergy is not involved in the POIS of one patient. However, towards the end of the paper, they suggest that POIS could be caused by low beta-endorphin signaling (low endorphins or low mu-opioid receptors). The reasoning follows:
Epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noreadrenaline) are released during sex, exercise, fear (fight or flight), chronic stress, etc... They stimulate orgasm, ejaculation, skin-flushing, and increased heart-rate.
(https://i.imgur.com/43RWkMg.png)
In general, these neurotransmitters suppress the immune system (see post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31889#msg31889)). Since adrenaline and norepinephrine levels fall during sleep, sleep deprivation also causes high adrenaline levels and immune suppression (Ref (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9231823)).
However, during sex and exercise the immune system is enhanced because beta-endorphins block the immune suppression effects of adrenaline/noradrenaline. Beta-endorphin also stimulates the innate immune response to viruses and inhibits viral replication. See: Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1655824), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8227310)
For example:
"We found that beta-endorphin but not dynorphin could stimulate NK cell activity... beta-endorphin appears to be one of the signals that is induced in the brain at the CS recall step of the conditioned response to trigger the elevation of NK cell activity."
-Expression of the conditioned NK cell activity is beta-endorphin dependent (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7620901)
(https://i.imgur.com/6u2i9Sq.png)
Effects of Sexual Arousal on Lymphocyte Subset Circulation and Cytokine Production in Man (P Haake, U Hartmann, et al., 2004) (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Uwe_Hartmann/publication/8395744_Effects_of_Sexual_Arousal_on_Lymphocyte_Subset_Circulation_and_Cytokine_Production_in_Man/links/00b7d52f8e1b80712a000000.pdf)
Endorphin receptors are not the only receptors that block adrenaline/stress induced NK cell immune suppression (see post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31892#msg31892)).
However, if the endorphin signaling is blocked, then we should not expect an increase in NK cells from sex. My hypothesis is that a pathogen reactivates during adrenaline signaling. This same pathogen inhibits the endorphin signaling needed to increase (sex-induce) NK cell levels. So when the pathogen is triggered, the NK cell response is inhibited simultaneously.
According to this model, NK cells do not need to drop to cause POIS. The only thing that is needed to cause POIS is for NK cell to fail to increase during orgasm (or pathogen reactivation). In healthy non-POIS people, NK cells should increase whenever a pathogen is attempting to spread and/or whenever endorphins are released. If NK cells stay normal or fall during orgasm, the person will become ill.
I think the symptoms come from monocyte/macrophage/neutrophils cells releasing chemokines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemokine) and their effects. The macrophages detect the virus and start releasing chemokines to induce chemotaxis of NK cells (draw NK cells to the site of infection). But no NK cells arrive. So the virus replicates, and macrophages release even more chemokines than before.
(https://i.imgur.com/PjAq132.png)
The cycle of failed NK cell response and increased chemokine release continues until an adaptive CD8+ T cell response can replace the NK cells. See "inefficient NK cell response" below:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZVEm2nO.png)
It is possible that in the absence of an efficient NK cell response, neutrophils could become overstressed and depleted trying to fight the pathogen. So in POISers, I would expect a lack of an increase in NK cells due to sex as the main metric to test. Other metrics around spermine production may show up in test. But also a secondary metric could be a gradual decrease in blood neutrophils during the POIS episode. The stomach problems that many people focus on is probably one side-effect of this aberrant immune function but most likely not the cause.
I currently, can experience 4 orgasm a week and function normally without supplements or drugs. My previous symptoms (before the immune therapy) were severe (see medical info post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg24039#msg24039)). My only symptoms now are an itchy feeling on the left side of my face and an occasional compulsion to scratch it. I can't prove that the therapy was the reason for the disappearance of almost all my symptoms, but my improvement is correlated in time with the immune therapy. Let me know if you have any other ideas, questions, comments...
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Hi nanna1, thanks a lot for your detailed posts and explanations! I have a few questions:
1. How does your prepack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31893#msg31893) in this topic relate to your previous prepack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497)? In particular, why do you exclude paracetamol, diclofenac, vitamin d, iposomal vitamin C, N-acetylcysteine, selenomethionine and instead include theanine?
2. Did you yourself get the intravenous vitamin C? Where in the timeline of the immune competence theory did you get it (before starting with the activation stack or after some weeks of taking the stack)?
3. You write that you are no longer taking your cascade stack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497)? For how long had you taken it? Did you experience any symptoms when not anymore taking SAM-e and Alpha GPC?
4. Where in the timeline of your experiments did you work on strengthening immunocompetence? Had you already stopped with the cascade stack?
5. You wrote that you were hoping to resolve your neutropenia by following the immune competence therapy. Have you had any tests done afterwards? Has there been any change in your neutrophil count?
6. Over what time span did you do the immune competence therapy (you wrote that you did not exactly follow it as you described, but just to get a rough idea for how many weeks you took the activation stack)?
Thank you!
BB
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Hi BluesBrother,
These are good questions. I hope I can answer them.
1. How does your prepack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31893#msg31893) in this topic relate to your previous prepack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497)? In particular, why do you exclude paracetamol, diclofenac, vitamin d, iposomal vitamin C, N-acetylcysteine, selenomethionine and instead include theanine?
The Betaherpesvirae stack is more focused on blocking the trigger. It is almost like taking alpha and beta inhibitors except without the dangers/side-effects of inhibiting the adrenaline receptors.
The pre-pack for the immune therapy is more focused on enhancing NK cell function during and after sexual activity. It is an attempt to recreate a normal immune response to orgasm. In a normal sexual activity, endorphins, NK cells and nitric oxide all increase. Technically speaking, COX inhibitors like indomethacin are very strong enhancers of NK cell number and activity since they prevent immune suppression by PGE2, but I know some people are turned-off by drugs. I tried to keep the pre-pack for the immune therapy minimal. But vitamin D, vitamin C, N-acetylcyteine are all helpful for boosting the immune system in general.
2. Did you yourself get the intravenous vitamin C? Where in the timeline of the immune competence theory did you get it (before starting with the activation stack or after some weeks of taking the stack)?
Yes, I got a 1g vitamin C IV (on a Thursday) followed by a 5g vitamin C IV (on a Friday) 24 hours later. This was done twice in consecutive weeks. So 4 vitamin C IVs total. The immediate effect of the IV was instant inflammation (warm achy pain) relief throughout my entire body. I did not realized I had so much inflammation until I felt better afterwards. But I did not notice any effect on other symptoms. It's hard to know what the full effect of the IV was since I did not take medical blood test afterwards. The ascorbate IVs were really expensive, so I did have money for medical test.
If I could do it over I would take all 4 IVs consecutively (one IV per day for 4 days) and take copper gluconate 3 hours prior to each injection.
3. You write that you are no longer taking your cascade stack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497)? For how long had you taken it? Did you experience any symptoms when not anymore taking SAM-e and Alpha GPC?
I took the POIS cascade stack from mid 2017 to Jan 2019. I cycled off a few times and experimented with the Betaherpesvirae stack. But I stayed mostly consistent with the POIS cascade stack. I started taking methyl-donors and B-vitamins 2015. When I first stopped taking the methyl-donors I did experience a return of all my POIS symptoms except for exercise-DOMS. Originally, I thought that the POIS cascade stack cured my IBS, but when I cycled off my old stack for too long the IBS would return slowly but with less intensity than before.
4. Where in the timeline of your experiments did you work on strengthening immunocompetence? Had you already stopped with the cascade stack?
I started experimenting with megadosing vitamin C while I was still taking my stack. I was also drinking Matcha green tea (high caffeine, high gallic acid tannins) for a short period of time while still on the old stack. I stopped the POIS cascade stack completely in Feb. 2019, and focused entirely on building up my immune system.
5. You wrote that you were hoping to resolve your neutropenia by following the immune competence therapy. Have you had any tests done afterwards? Has there been any change in your neutrophil count?
The neutrophil count is a test that I should do. During the time I was boosting the immune system with supplements, I was monitoring my acne (face) and eczema (foot). Acne usually occurs when bacteria enters the skin. Then white blood cells (neutrophils) leave the blood vessels and invade the skin to attack the infection. The white blood cells are part of what give pimple their white color. I used to get acne/pimples in the days following orgasm as one of my POIS symptoms. As my acne cleared up, that gave me evidence that my neutrophil function had normalized. Certain foods (chocolate, dairy, high-sugar) that used to give me acne, no longer do.
I also used to have eczema on the heel of my foot. This was not associated with orgasm or any related activity. Both the acne and eczema that I have dealt with since I was a teenager have cleared up. And I never get acne now, no matter what junk-food I eat :). Side note: I did use tea tree oil on the eczema also.
These are indirect (and free) measures of neutrophil activity. But I've mainly been avoiding spending money on more medical test.
6. Over what time span did you do the immune competence therapy (you wrote that you did not exactly follow it as you described, but just to get a rough idea for how many weeks you took the activation stack)?
I started experimenting around early Feb 2019 with beta-glucan, AHCC, Immune Senescence Protection Formula (https://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-supplements/item02005/immune-senescence-protection-formula), NK Cell Activator (https://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-supplements/item01903/nk-cell-activator), oral-vitamin C, melatonin, etc... I didn't know what would work, so I randomly tried different combinations and different doses.
I found out early on that AHCC cause (short duration) random localized nerve pain and muscle twitches. Mega-dose-vitamin C cause rhinitis. High-dose melatonin caused itching. I interpreted these symptoms as the supplements activating different parts of my immune system. These symptoms were mind enough to tolerate and did not cause fatigue or cognitive issues. So I started trying to maximize the symptoms with different supplement combinations. As the (non-POIS) symptoms started to disappear, I increased the dose to restore maximal immune activation and symptoms. Sometimes I cycled off-on the supplements to restore and increase flu-like symptoms. The side-effects of melatonin cause me to stop taking it.
Later on I added caffeine and citrulline as a pre-pack and tried GABA supplements (theanine and taurine) to prevent caffeine jitters. I all found that copper gluconate was helpful. However, there were many other supplements I tried that I can't tell if they had any effect.
These experiments occurred mostly outside of POIS. But I notice something weird around April/May 2019. When the vitamin C "wore off" (I could no longer produce rhinitis by increasing the dose), the rhinitis that I used to experience during POIS disappeared. I never experience rhinitis during POIS again.
The same effect happen with AHCC and the nerve-pain/muscle-twitch. Once increasing my AHCC dose could no longer produce nerve pain, the pains and muscle-twitch that I used to experience during POIS also disapeared.
The same effect happened with copper. Copper initially caused diarrhea and stomach pain in the area where I would normally get IBS, with a little nausea. But after a while of cycling copper on-and-off and gradually taking it more often throughout the day, the stomach problems caused by copper went away. And the IBS from POIS also went away at the same time.
These effects were permanent (or at least still effective) and continue to last several months after I no longer take these supplements. The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased. For copper, it took a little over two weeks, but I started experiencing a reduction in stomach problems after 1 week. The immune therapy reflects more so the lessons learned rather than a exact description of all the things that I experimented with. I hope that clarifies things a bit :)
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nanna1, what is your copper gluconate brand. I know experience will differ but I am not feeling any die off effect or stomach issues from using copper gluconate. I have vitamin shoppe brand but I saw somewhere online not to trust them.
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damn, what have I missed ... this is a 'gem' of a thread, nanna1 has created a bevvy of precious insights, that one cant find anywhere else.
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nanna1, thank you!
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However, if these immunosupressing molecules (PGE2, spermidine, spermine,etc...) increase in other parts of the body during sexual activity, they could suppress the protective NK cell function and ultimately allow pathogens to reactivate.
Table 5 polyamines (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7003574/)
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nanna1, what is your copper gluconate brand. I know experience will differ but I am not feeling any die off effect or stomach issues from using copper gluconate. I have vitamin shoppe brand but I saw somewhere online not to trust them.
Hi certainlypois2,
I used the GNC brand copper gluconate (https://www.amazon.com/GNC-Copper-100-Vegetarian-Tablets/dp/B00GBBW1MW). I took it on an empty stomach with water. A few times, I took it with food. But food reduced the effect. Eventually, taking copper on an empty stomach no longer produced stomach problems and the POIS-related stomach problems also went away. I was also taking AHCC, vitamin D3, and liposomal vitamin C at the time. There is the possibility that liposomal vitamin C helps copper disinfect.
If stomach issues are not part of your POIS symptoms, then copper may not produce a die off effect. Or the effect may be mild. I suspect that POIS suppresses the immune system temporarily. And during this immune suppression, some (but not all) latent infections have the opportunity to reactivate and trigger and aberrant. Copper's disinfecting properties are not dependent on the immune system. Copper, at sufficient concentrations, can kill certain types of bacteria, viruses and fungi directly. And ascorbate (vitamin C) increases the efficiency of this disinfecting property (see post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)).
I'm just going to dump this here for anyone who is following the discussion:
The same effect happened with copper. Copper initially caused diarrhea and stomach pain in the area where I would normally get IBS, with a little nausea. But after a while of cycling copper on-and-off and gradually taking it more often throughout the day, the stomach problems caused by copper went away. And the IBS from POIS also went away at the same time.
These effects were permanent (or at least still effective) and continue to last several months after I no longer take these supplements. The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased. For copper, it took a little over two weeks, but I started experiencing a reduction in stomach problems after 1 week. The immune therapy "stack" reflects more so the lessons learned rather than a exact description of all the things that I experimented with. I hope that clarifies things a bit :)
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Hi Nanna
Where did you buy the Copper Oxide from i cannot find it anywhere
Thanks
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Also is the liposomal vitamin C necessary compared with just using Ascorbic acid powder high doses? If so then why is it more beneficial?
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I think that liposomal vit c is 60%-70% more absorable.
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Yes Hopeoneday and Iwillbeatthis, that is the reason! Megadosing vitamin C (ascorbate) powder saturates at about 250mg oral dose because of self-regulated absorption. Anything higher than 250mg is excreted in the bowel or urine (not absorbed).
(https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/98/17/9842/F2.medium.gif)
Figure 2. Intracellular vitamin C concentrations (millimolar) in circulating cells as function of dose. Neutrophils, monocytes, platelets, and lymphocytes... -A new recommended dietary allowance of vitamin C for healthy young women (https://www.pnas.org/content/98/17/9842.figures-only)
Liposomes (encapsulated) partially bypass self-regulated absorption, so you can absorb twice as much vitamin C as the un-encapsulated ascorbic acid powder. But intravenous (IV) vitamin C has the highest absorption.
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4915787/bin/nmi-9-2016-025f2.jpg)
Figure 2. Plasma concentrations of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) before (time = 0 minute) and after: (1) oral administration of placebo, (2) oral administration of 4 g of vitamin C encapsulated in liposomes, (3) oral administration of 4 g of unencapsulated vitamin C, and (4) intravenous administration of 4 g of vitamin C.
-Liposomal-encapsulated Ascorbic Acid: Influence on Vitamin C Bioavailability and Capacity to Protect Against Ischemia-Reperfusion Injury (2016) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4915787/)
Also, liposomes last longer in the blood stream to give you more time to absorb ascorbate.
(https://isom.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Figure-3.34.1-768x768.jpg)
-The Levels of Ascorbic Acid in Blood and Mononuclear Blood Cells After Oral Liposome-Encapsulated and Oral Non-Encapsulated Vitamin C Supplementation, Taken Without and with IV Hydrocortisone (Riordan Clinic, 2019) (https://isom.ca/article/the-levels-of-ascorbic-acid-in-blood-and-mononuclear-blood-cells-after-oral-liposome-encapsulated-and-oral-non-encapsulated-vitamin-c-supplementation-taken-without-and-with-iv-hydrocortisone/)
I personally did not notice any affect from megadosing regular vitamin C powder (single). I did notice an effect from taking liposomal ascorbate spaced 4 to 6 hours apart. This is not a fair comparison because I did not take multiple megadosed vitamin C or think about the time spacing. So maybe if you megadose the powder and space it 5 hours apart, you can get a similar effect (see multi-dose timing figure (https://i.imgur.com/xruUsYq.png)). I do not know if that will change things. It might work! I have been looking into sodium ascorbyl phosphate, which is the type of vitamin C used in cosmetics, but I have not tried this. If anyone has an idea on how to increase vitamin C absorption, please let me know!
I have notice recently that the original sources that I used for copper gluconate, zinc, vitamin C and ImmunoComplex have all sold out. It seems like there is high demand or shorter supply for immune boosting supplements now. But there are other sources on the Amazon and Quality of Life websites.
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Ok thanks for the clarification Nanna! Also somehow I didn't realise that all the supplements in the ImmunoComplex were just part of one supplement. Its good you mentioned that because I was about to go and buy them all separately!
I wasn't reacting well to methyl folate as I don't think my body can tolerate methylated vitamins. So instead I bought a pre metabolised form of folate - Folinic Acid 800mcg. The folinic acid did make me nauesous and instantly fatigued(no supplement has done this to me before) I then nap and a wake up feel a bit better. I then tried half a capsule the same thing basically happens and I need to nap instantly it does seem to throw me off balance also but at the same time I feel it may be doing some benefit in the long run(I need to test this more). It does seem better for me than the methyl - the methyl gave extreme brain fog and anxiety. Do you have any advice for me on why this may be happening? Maybe it is due to folate receptor autoantibodies or I just have a problem absorbing folate, I've also heard virus can bind to folate receptors not sure if this is true or not?
I know many practitioners say folic acid is bad is it really that bad? I remember taking it years ago and not having any reaction to it.
Thanks
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Hey Iwillbeatthis,
I originally took the supplements in ImmunoComplex as separate supplements from different suppliers/companies. Afterward, when I was writing the original post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31893#msg31893), I discovered that the suppler for my AHCC created an immunity building stack which had all the things that I found was helpful. So that is why I list ImmunoComplex.
I tried not to take greater than 200mcg per day for vitamin B9 (folate). I think that taking less than 200mcg is ideal. If it is improving your sleep, then that is a good thing! :)
There is a stigma in the medical community against taking B vitamins because most supplement companies sell the vitamins with concentrations that are way too high. It is hard to find a vitamin supplement with a reasonable concentration. Most people can handle high concentrations for a short period of time, but taking these supplements at higher than 100% daily recommended allowance can create other problems. Anything can be overdosed.
About vitamin B6: The amount of vitamin B6 here (2mg) is roughly 100% of the US recommended daily allowance (RDA) (https://ods.od.nih.gov/pdf/factsheets/VitaminB6-Consumer.pdf). My daily B6 consumption does not exceed 25mg as an upper limit. However, typical branded B6 and B complex supplements may exceed 200mg (10,000%) and are toxic when taken daily.
About folate B9: (200 microgram) is a safe daily dose. For folate-cancer data, please see Table 1: cancer endpoints (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790187/table/T1/) under the Outcomes heading.
About vitamin B12: B12 has an extremely low toxicity (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-B12#toxicity). Between 50 to 1000 mcg can be taken per day.
I put C4 as a source in the therapy prepack to make it easier and less expensive to stack caffeine, citrulline, N-acetyl-tyrosine. It also contains some nitrates, which is helpful. But if you can't find C4, then other sources that contain the ingredients should have the same effect. It should be noted that C4 has 300mg of caffeine, so the dose should be reduced by one-half or one-third to get a caffeine dose between 150mg and 100mg.
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Right now immune support items are harder to get. What would be the minimum daily stack that you feel would be effective? I've had many immune problems (constant brain fog) and POIS makes them significantly worse - but it feels like allowing latent problems to worsen, which supports the immune function theory I would think.
Could you start off with just AHCC (does the source matter? is this better than cordyceps or lion's mane?). Cycle on and off as you recommend. Not counting the prepack, what other supplements are the most important? Copper gluconate seems harder to find that glycinate - is it important to use that form? Same with lipo C - there are so many competing products on Amazon and hard to tell if they're real liposomal and if they're all the same.
Your initial stack was very helpful to me, but I've been dealing with a lot of immune and musculoskeletal issues and that seems to have only gotten me partway. The immune theory is fascinating to me.
Thanks!
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(I looked for the Immuno Complex you recommend, but Quality of Life is out of stock and looks like Amazon as well. Shame, because that looked like it had several important items in one easy supplement.)
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Hi @nanna1
Thanks a lot for your detailed posts.
Spermidine for immune surpression in the female
This might interest you, probably you already know it: "Hence exposure to semen around the time of embryo transfer increases the likelihood of successful early embryo implantation and development." (https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/15/12/2653/2915864) (It's about artifical pregancy, IVF)
- active hexose correlated compounds (AHCC)
What's your opinnion on Reishi (https://examine.com/supplements/ganoderma-lucidum/)? I still have some extract pills at home, don't really remember why I bought them :-)
- zinc methionine
- copper oxide
On the internet, it is often mentioned that over-supplementing zinc leads to copper deficiency. I wonder how many POISers have copper deficiency, because for sure a lot of them are supplementing zinc for testosterone reasons and they feel that ejaculation reduces their zinc.
beta-glucan (1g) (https://www.amazon.com/Bulksupplements-Beta-Glucan-Powder-Grams/dp/B01BMUZGSM/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_2_2/143-2693895-0728948?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01BMUZGSM&pd_rd_r=1e0dc790-dcca-4f93-87e4-ec7f4d021889&pd_rd_w=RSzOx&pd_rd_wg=KMp6o&pf_rd_p=7dbb7d55-f8a0-4d7b-84e2-fe1c6913e19d&pf_rd_r=REJ27T1DPHF2N73QRA5K&refRID=REJ27T1DPHF2N73QRA5K&th=1)
The linked Beta Glucan is made from yeast. I have two supplement bottles of Beta Glucan here, one with pills made from oats, one with pills made from Saccharomyces cerevisaiea. I wonder if they behave differently or if all Beta Glucans help. I originally bought them for hay fever support and I think for that they work quite well.. (together with other supplements).
copper gluconate (2mg, empty stomach)
On empty stomach makes me VOMIT. Not nice. With food works. I wonder if that is a general reaction or a "detox" reaction.
prevent transient immune suppression:
The first time sex after my wife's period, I usually have very strong POIS sympoms (body, mood, impatience, agressions..) but then follow-ups on next days, I'm more ok. I'm fatigued but much more stable mood. What's your theory on this with regards to the potential pathogen(s) or immune reaction..
Speaking about sex: How does the obersvation that masturbation leads to worse symptoms than real sex fit into your theory? Something about neurotransmitters? Or immune system?
Regarding your older postings which focus on reducing inflammation by reducing Arachidonic acid: Are you still vegan? I for sure notice avoiding eggs and meat lowers my hand joint pain, thanks for pointing that out. I don't know if it influences POIS.
Thanks a lot for your time.
I've read your postings several times, I think I might have more questions later :-)
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The new updated c4 ultimate you posted is unable to ship to UK, do you know any alternative brands which are similar I can't seem to find any with similar ingredients.
Also what is an example of an arginase inhibitor?
A lot of these brands have Arginine Nitrate in them is this a bad thing?
Thanks
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Also what is an example of an arginase inhibitor?
I think he's referring to the L-Citrulline.
You can buy the ingredients listed in the post separately, they just coincidentally are in this c4 ultime (and other pre-workout supplements).
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Nanna1.
As i tought ,that we are imunocompromised because hiden infection
or toxin. What bothering me about this theory, is that corticosteroids help some part of poisers.
That telling me, that not all poisers have suppresed imune response on O.(maybe i am wrong).
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By the whay, is it in eny of past pois stydies, did mesured delayed hypersensitivity imune response of t-cells?
We know that some poisers hawe delayed pois,
day after...
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Hi All,
I'm sorry for the slow reply. I haven't been on the forum as much lately.
Hi hapl,
Right now immune support items are harder to get. What would be the minimum daily stack that you feel would be effective?
Yes, the immune support items are running out because the coronavirus caused many people to try and boost their immune systems. I did not do a minimum-effective-dose test. My guess is that taking lower doses would take longer to see results and cost more money.
Could you start off with just AHCC (does the source matter? is this better than cordyceps or lion's mane?). Cycle on and off as you recommend. Not counting the prepack, what other supplements are the most important?
Yes, AHCC is more potent at stimulating NK cells than cordyceps and lion's mane. Each of the supplements in the therapy have different roles so I can't say what is most important. AHCC and adrographis go well together. Vitamin C and copper are synergistic. Vitamin D3 and zinc are synergistic.
Copper gluconate seems harder to find that glycinate - is it important to use that form? Same with lipo C - there are so many competing products on Amazon and hard to tell if they're real liposomal and if they're all the same.
Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to the supplier questions. If you happen to try different vitamin C and copper combinations and find that some products work better than others please let us know.
(I looked for the Immuno Complex you recommend, but Quality of Life is out of stock and looks like Amazon as well. Shame, because that looked like it had several important items in one easy supplement.)
LEF has high quality andrographis, beta-glucan (https://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-supplements/item00955/immune-protect-with-paractin?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI987KgJ6n6QIVC5SzCh3isggREAQYBCABEgJM_PD_BwE) and AHCC (https://www.lifeextension.com/search#q=ahcc&t=coveo4A2453FD). I saw some smaller online stores that have ImmunoComplex, but I don't know how credible they are.
Hi berlin1984,
What's your opinion on Reishi (https://examine.com/supplements/ganoderma-lucidum/)?...
...beta-glucan (1g) (https://www.amazon.com/Bulksupplements-Beta-Glucan-Powder-Grams/dp/B01BMUZGSM/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_2_2/143-2693895-0728948?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01BMUZGSM&pd_rd_r=1e0dc790-dcca-4f93-87e4-ec7f4d021889&pd_rd_w=RSzOx&pd_rd_wg=KMp6o&pf_rd_p=7dbb7d55-f8a0-4d7b-84e2-fe1c6913e19d&pf_rd_r=REJ27T1DPHF2N73QRA5K&refRID=REJ27T1DPHF2N73QRA5K&th=1)
The active ingredients in Reishi are the beta-glucans. There are differences between them (see Wiki: Beta-glucan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-glucan)) but it gets complicated. Basically, beta-glucans are better at stimulating the immune system to fight bacteria and AHCC (alpha-glucan) is better at stimulating anti-viral immunity. Both alpha and beta glucans stimulate anti-fungal and anti-cancer immunity.
copper gluconate (2mg, empty stomach)
On empty stomach makes me VOMIT. Not nice. With food works. I wonder if that is a general reaction or a "detox" reaction.
In my case, it was a detox reaction. At high concentration, copper is toxic to certain bacteria and virus. Good bacteria in the microbiome have mostly adjusted to be compatible with the nutrients and minerals in the human diet. But foreign (harmful) bacteria die quickly in the presence of copper. When these bacteria die they burst open and release toxins/debris. If the toxins reach a high enough concentration in the digestive tract, our immune system will try to remove the toxins from the body as fast as possible. Sometimes this means vomiting.
Drinking more water and/or food can dilute the copper and slow down how fast the bacteria die. But too much food could eliminate the die-off effect from copper. I preferred to just drinking water when I felt sick or like I might vomit. Eventually, I got to the point where I could take copper on an empty stomach and not feel anything. But, not everyone has to do what I did. Experiment with whatever method you feel comfortable with.
...What's your theory on this with regards to the potential pathogen(s) or immune reaction...
First, I have to explain the non-POIS (normal) case. Sexual stimulation leads to dopamine and glutamate release. Some of the dopamine is converted to norepinephrine (noradrenaline, NOR) and epinephrine (adrenaline, EPI). In normal (non-POIS) orgasm, the neurotransmitters dopamine, NOR and EPI each independently stimulate the release of beta-endorphin. Beta-endorphin forms a negative feedback on NOR and EPI by blocking their adrenergic receptor-signal and preventing NOR/EPI induced immune supression. The Beta-endorphin block on adrenergic receptors also prevents NOR and EPI from stimulating viral reactivation.
(https://i.imgur.com/GSFdeq1.png)
Beta-endorphin stimulates the release of BDNF and prolactin. These three can all independently stimulate increases in natural killer (NK) cell number and activity against pathogen (fungus, virus, bacteria, cancer). This can lead to an increase in the killing of pathogens and resistence to new disease. Beta-endorphin is also an opioid which causes euphoria and a decreased sensitivity to pain. BDNF is an antidepressant neutrophin which causes improved mood, feelings of well being and improved memory. Prolactin, oxytocin and vitamin D work together to balance the immune system (preventing autoimmunity, allergy, cytokine storms, etc...).
According to the hypothesis I give in the original post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31887#msg31887), an infection inhibits beta-endorphin release. When beta-endorphin (endogenous opioid) levels drop, BDNF levels drop also. This produces symptoms of opioid withdrawl. Without beta-endorphin, the temporary rise of EPI and NOR from sex leads to immune supression and infection reactivation. The idea that POIS is a type of opioid withdrawl comes the POIS case study by a group of allergist in (Jia Yin, et al, 2015) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453). These researchers rule out allergy as the cause of POIS and then propose that POIS is caused by a suppression of mu-opioid receptor signaling. This is a simplified way of viewing the model:
(https://i.imgur.com/apz6F9C.png)
The POIS cascade is described here (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg21497#msg21497). The enzyme arginase helps convert L-arginine to spermadine and spermine (immune suppressors). Note that neutrophils and NK cells work together to fight infection. When NK cells are suppressed during infection, this could cause neutrophils to be overun and depleted.
Note that many diseases are suppressed by the NK immune cells, including those that do not cause POIS. But when the POIS infection is triggered by EPI and NOR, this causes a temporary immune deficiency. Any latent diseases that are normally suppressed by NK cells is no longer being suppressed. So many symptoms of POIS will come from infections that do not cause POIS (are not triggered by EPI/NOR). They are the result and manifestation of POIS, but not the cause. Treating latent infections may reduce symptoms during POIS even when those infection do not cause POIS because those infection would be triggered by the lack of an NK immune defense. Some latent infections are suppressed by CD4/CD8 memory T cells and do not need NK cell suppression. Symptoms of the POIS-causing infection will be similar to opioid withdrawl. But the POIS symptoms from other diseases will vary depending on what infections a person has.
(https://i.imgur.com/52NFZdS.png)
This is what I think happen when I took copper. I do not think POIS is caused by gut problems. But I do think that the microbiome is regulated by the innate immune system. When the innate immune system is suppressed there can be an imbalance of bad bacteria in the gut. In some cases, I believe that using copper to kill chronic infections of bad bacteria is a way of reducing stomach problems that happen during POIS without necessarily treating the infection that caused POIS (and immune suppression). This is my opinion.
Speaking about sex: How does the obersvation that masturbation leads to worse symptoms than real sex fit into your theory? Something about neurotransmitters? Or immune system?
Even without sex, interpersonal connections with people (hugging, kissing, laughing, talking and other social interactions) increase beta-endorphins. This rise in beta-endorphin stimulates BDNF and oxytocin leading to improvements in immune function, cognition and mood. Interacting with other people promotes good health.
In short, i want to understand why does my body react so differently to orgasm following sex versus masturbation?...
There are two reason given in the POIS literature for a difference between POIS from sex versus masturbation. The first reason comes from the paper:
Progesterone deficiency, "Benign coital headache relieved by partner's pregnancies with implications for future treatment (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3028282/)" (Selwyn Dexter, 2009)
...
...The second reason is given by the paper:
Mu-opioid receptor dysfunction, "Postorgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS) in a Chinese Man: No Proof for IgE‐Mediated Allergy to Semen (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453)" (Jia Yin, et al, 2015)
Regarding your older postings which focus on reducing inflammation by reducing Arachidonic acid: Are you still vegan?
I am no longer vegan, I am no longer taking the POIS Cascade Stack. But I am not experiencing POIS symptoms except for an itch/tingle on the left side of my chin.
Hi Iwillbeatthis,
Also what is an example of an arginase inhibitor?
A lot of these brands have Arginine Nitrate in them is this a bad thing?
Arginase inhibitors can be found here (arginase inhibitor pharmacokinetics (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg31234;topicseen#msg31234)).
Nitrates are good but I would avoid direct arginine supplements. If you are also taking an arginase inhibitor, that should block the conversion of arginine to spermine (immune suppression). But citrulline is always preferred over arginine.
Hi Hopeoneday,
Nanna1,
As I thought, that we are imunocompromised because hidden infection
or toxin. What bothering me about this theory, is that corticosteroids help some part of poisers.
That tells me, that not all poisers have suppressed immune response on O.(maybe i am wrong).
Corticosteroids "work" the same way that progesterone does, by blocking phospholipase enzymes and enhancing vitamin D receptor function (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.msg22678;topicseen#msg22678). So corticosteroids block the release of arachidonic acid (omega-6, AA). Many different steroids have regulatory control over phospholipase. For example, testosterone suppresses phospholipase D. This is a temporary solution that does not "work" long term. You cannot systemically block the arachidonic acid cascade forever. Also, steroids make it harder to feel pleasure from orgasm.
(see Glucocorticoids inhibit prostaglandin synthesis not only at the level of phospholipase A2 but also at the level of cyclo-oxygenase/PGE isomerase, 1989 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854794/)
and
Testosterone suppresses phospholipase D, causing sex differences in leukotriene biosynthesis in human monocytes, 2011 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21693622)).
(http://i.imgur.com/eEHfswS.png)
Essential Reproduction. Martin H. Johnson, Barry J. Everitt. (1988)
By the whay, is it in any of the past pois studies? Did they measure delayed hypersensitivity immune response of t-cells?
Since Dr. Waldinger first proposed allergy type I and antigen type IV hypersensitivity as a cause of POIS (Waldinger, et al, 2011), several POIS case studies have tested hypersensitivity/allergy responses in POIS patients. It was concluded through semen injection studies that POIS patients do not show a greater allergic response to semen than non-POIS controls (Jia Yin, et al, 2015 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453)). Many POISers do not experience allergic reaction to semen injection. So there is no need to isolate a specific cell type or time frame. Several POIS case studies have ruled out allergy and autoimmunity through autonomous semen injections (Attia, et al, 2013 (https://f1000research.com/articles/2-113/v1))(Jia Yin, et al, 2015 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453))(N. Depreux, et al, 2018 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1698031X1730064X))(De Amicis, et al, 2019 (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2019.1677835))(Pierce, et al, 2019 (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21681805.2019.1704861?journalCode=isju20&)). So hypersensitivity does not appear to be involve in POIS.
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This AHCC (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0108POZK2) looks interesting - although it's technically not AHCC (brand name), it looks like it contains a similar range of ingredients?
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Hi All,
I'm sorry for the slow reply. I haven't been on the forum as much lately.
Thank you for giving such a detailed reply. I'll try to digest your science later this week.
We hope you can still check and reply so that we can help to undermine your theories. EDIT: I meant underpin not undermine.
I wanted to dump those snippets here about NK cells and immunity in general:
Ashwagandha:
"CD56+ NK cells were also activated after 96 hours as evidenced by expression of the CD69 receptor."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19388865
Garlic:
"Supplementation with aged garlic extract improves both NK and γδ-T cell function and reduces the severity of cold and flu symptoms: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled nutrition intervention."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22280901
Spirulina:
"In summary, two independent studies showed enhancement of NK cell activity following administration of Immulina? for seven days."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20560112
Ganoderma lucidum / Reishi:
"The mean absolute number of CD56+ cells was significantly (P < 0.05) increased", "Ganopoly treatment resulted in a significant increase (P < 0.05) in the mean NK activity"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12916709
Echinacea purpurea and Panax ginseng:
"Both echinacea and ginseng, [..] significantly enhanced NK-function of all groups [with Chronic Fatigue or AIDS]"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0162310996001257
Nigella sativa - black seed oil:
"The oil and certain active ingredients showed beneficial immunomodulatory properties, augmenting the T cell- and natural killer cell-mediated immune responses. Most importantly, both the oil and its active ingredients expressed anti-microbial and anti-tumor properties toward different microbes and cancers. "
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567576905001578
Propolis
"Its stimulant action on the lytic activity of natural killer cells against tumor cells, and on antibody production was demonstrated. "
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378874107002474
Goji
"Lycium barbarum berries, also named wolfberry, Fructus lycii, and Goji berries, have been used in the People?s Republic of China and other Asian countries for more than 2,000 years as a traditional medicinal herb and food supplement. L. barbarum polysaccharides (LBPs) are the primary active components of L. barbarum berries and have been reported to possess a wide array of pharmacological activities."
"LBPs promote the proliferation and activity of splenocytes, T cells, B cells, macrophages, and NK cells."
"LBPs promote the cytotoxicity of NK cells"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4277126/
If someone finds more supplements that were recommended with POIS capable of enhancing NK, please post (focus would be on NK, not on inflammation reducing, GABA, hormones or other things..)
There is also the "Immune" section at ergo-log that could be interesting: https://www.ergo-log.com/immunesystem.html
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Yeah, it is logic, we are alll different about potential infections and patogens, so reaction on imune diferences is diferent in everyone. lot of imune pathways is know to this day in the human body.
If studies says that there is no imune alergy reaction in poisers, than ,what is it?
What is bothering me about u poisers, what is abnormal in us compared to "normal" individuals???
We discused before about catecholamines...
Acording to this theory, exesive response of catecholamines suprees our imunity.
Not yust norep..and epiderph...but alsou posuble abnormall cortisol
spike during arousall OE...
I tought lately, is it in us poisers arousal and eyaculation -orgasam the same as ACUTE STRESS_FEAR RESPONSE??? Arousal , eyaculation, orgasm is
fear response in us?? No logic...
If this is the true , is it mesurable?
Glands disorder?
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If studies says that there is no imune alergy reaction in poisers, than ,what is it?
It's not an allergy and not an auto-immune (to semen or other prostate fluids) reaction.
The theory by nanna1 is that there is latent infections that our weak(ened) immune systems don't attack properly after O. This would explain why I very often get sore throat or even sick after O:
So this immune suppression model predicts that normal (non-POIS) people rely upon a transient increase in NK cell activity to suppress latent infections, while POISers rely upon the slower CD8 T cell increase to control those same latent infections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus_latency
If this is the true , is it mesurable?
We could measure the immune system activities/count/etc. Something to research, maybe get inspiration in https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0
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Berlin , i didnt mean enything of what you
wroted . I tought a llitle depper than that
(dig to the root cause).
Check my older posts, how some poisers cured themself with antivirals on my sugestion.
I discovered that a lot of us hawe neutrophenia or near to it.
Nana1 put it in tabele(it is rare), but no all poisers have it!
I pulled a virus thery in that time.
If we hawe supressed imune reaction
during arousall, OE- the question -
can we meassure that response
in the real time???
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I discovered that a lot of us have neutropenia or near to it.
Nanna1 put it in table (it is rare), but not all poisers have it!
Thanks Hopeoneday for finding the neutropenia correlation!
Two last members posted low white blood tests-...According to mayo clinic-
https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/low-white-blood-cell-count/basics/causes/sym-20050615
...
(https://i.imgur.com/0V3N8dZ.png)
The above chart shows the prevalence of low neutrophil levels (neutropenia) for individuals in the United States of America (USA) according to ethnicity (Hispanic 0.38%, white 0.79%, black 4.5%) and individuals with POIS (60%) from this forum. The data for neutropenia in the USA was taken from "Prevalence of neutropenia in the U.S. population: age, sex, smoking status, and ethnic differences. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17404350/)"
...can we measure that response in the real time???
Yes we can measure it in real time. According to this hypothesis (Transient immune defficiency), the difference between POIS and non-POIS is that POISers have an infection in an area of the nervous system that controls opioid signaling. This infection inhibits opioid signaling.
- I propose that the infection inhibits the release of beta-endorphin
- (N. Jiang, et al, 2015 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453)) proposed that there was an unspecified dysregulation of the mu-opioid receptor. They did not mention infection or cause of dysregulation.
In both cases, everything else unique to POIS comes from having a suppressed opioid function.
You could test my version of this hypothesis by doing a timed lymphocyte subset panel (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg32199;topicseen#msg32199) (before, 5min, 45min, 24hr). I also discuss this test here: Transiently Immune Enhancement from Orgasm (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31888#msg31888).
The POIS case study (H. Pierce, et al 2019 (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21681805.2019.1704861?journalCode=isju20)) showed that POIS could be blocked in one POISer by alpha-blockers (medications have side-effects). Another POIS case study (De Amicis, et al, 2019 (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2019.1677835)) showed that the patient had a deficiency of NK cells and B cells. They only used one time point though. Both of these studies need follow-up experiments because they may have measured biomarkers for POIS. So I think Berlin1984's suggestion to measure immune activity and cell counts is a good idea!
To test the (N. Jiang, et al, 2015 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630453)) mu-opioid receptor hypothesis for POIS, a doctor/researcher could administer naloxone (mu-opioid inhibitor) and epinephrine (epi-pen) to a POIS patient. If the N. Jiang POIS paper is correct, these two drugs should cause severe POIS symptoms within a 60 seconds. The effects of the naloxone/epinephrine experiment can be reversed within a few hours with IV infusions of medical opiates and alpha/beta-blockers. This experiment is extremely dangerous and can only be performed under direct supervision by medical professionals within a hospital setting.
-neutropenia POIS prevalence data (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24966;topicseen#msg24966)
-other POIS medical data patterns (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788)
-Lymphocyte Subset Panel Test (https://www.findlabtest.com/lab-test/blood-tests-for-heart-disease/lymphocyte-subset-panel-1-quest-7197)
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Berlin , i didnt mean enything of what you
wroted . I tought a llitle depper than that
(dig to the root cause).
Check my older posts, how some poisers cured themself with antivirals on my sugestion.
Sorry, I didn't mean it is an insult. I'm new to the forum. I checked your posts and how I'm very tempted to try Aciclovir but I'd need a subscription. Meh. I should probably go to the doctor to get some virus checks, but convincing the doctor to do checks is hard (because they need to prove to health insurance that the check is good).
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How to cure this infection in the nervous system that inhibits opioid signaling thus causing POIS? Any supplements or anything that can fix it? You have put in a good amount of effort and have made a theory on POIS cause-very well done-In the POIS study they could check it-immune cells before and after orgasm and other data related to this theory.
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How to cure this infection [..] that inhibits opioid signaling thus causing POIS? Any supplements or anything that can fix it?
Read through the whole thread :-)
Nanna has laid it out. It's mostly about AHCC (Alpha Glucans), Copper, Zinc, Vitamin C, .... and other stuff. The key seems to be to do antiviral supplements AND also make immune system more active (NK cells, T cells).
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How to cure this infection [..] that inhibits opioid signaling thus causing POIS? Any supplements or anything that can fix it?
Read through the whole thread :-)
Nanna has laid it out. It's mostly about AHCC (Alpha Glucans), Copper, Zinc, Vitamin C, .... and other stuff. The key seems to be to do antiviral supplements AND also make immune system more active (NK cells, T cells).
Are these supplements for removing the infection in nervous system that inhibits opioid signaling or they balance the post-orgasm chemistry to a non-POIS normal one? Or they do the both?
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I wonder if Olive Leaf Extract could remove the latent viruses including infection in the nervous system that inhibits opioid signaling?
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Nanna1 - if you recommend to cycle on and off the AHCC immune stack (6 days on, 4 days off), what about if you're taking any antiviral herbs - like knotweed, andrographis, houttyunia, cryptolepsis, etc? Should those be cycled at the same time, or opposite times, or not cycled?
I've been taking herbs for awhile (cycled sometimes for weeks on or off) and find they sometimes help and sometimes worsen my symptoms (general muscular pain, headaches, etc). Possibly it helps my immune system initially, but isn't enough on its own - that's why the immune therapy interests me.
Thanks.
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I currently, can experience 4 orgasm a week and function normally without supplements or drugs. [...]I can't prove that the therapy was the reason for the disappearance of almost all my symptoms, but my improvement is correlated in time with the immune therapy.
Nice: Immune-enhancing effect AHCC still present one month after use, animal study (https://www.ergo-log.com/immune-enhancing-effect-ahcc-still-present-one-month-after-use.html)
(But of course the other stuff you did most probably had a persistent effect too, be it immune activation or pathogen killing).
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Sorry, I didn't mean it is an insult. I'm new to the forum. I checked your posts and how I'm very tempted to try Aciclovir but I'd need a subscription. Meh. I should probably go to the doctor to get some virus checks, but convincing the doctor to do checks is hard (because they need to prove to health insurance that the check is good).
No worry Berlin, i didnt take that as insult, yust give to you some info about matter, it is "inposible" to read all and catch all on this forum.
I didnt knew that a health checks in Germany is so hard to be aproved..
hmm..
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In the paper "Immunophenotypical Characterization of a Brazilian POIS patient (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2019.1677835?journalCode=usmt20)", the POIS patient was found to be deficient in cytotoxic natural killer (NK) cells and B lymphocyte cells, and an over expression of monocytes. The aurthors of this paper also note that:
"Some studies have shown a decrease of NK cell percentage in association with a reduction of activity of these cells in peripheral blood of patients with depression. Other mental disorders such as mental stress, autism and obsessive-compulsive disorder have also been reported to present lower NK cell activity."
The deficiency in Natural Killers indicates that immune suppression could be preventing this patient from forming a competent immune response.
I don't like to bring up the link because I feel it's cliche but anyway:
"Numerous studies have found evidence of reduced natural killer cell function in patients with myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS)" (https://www.me-pedia.org/wiki/Natural_killer_cell)
Regarding AHCC also see: http://www.ahccpublishedresearch.com/studies/AHCC_04_1002.html
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3. Immune Suppression/Immune Tolerance model of POIS
Many theories of POIS center around an assumption that the immune cells are too active and need to be suppressed or stabilized. Here, I present the exact opposite theory, namely that cytotoxic innate immune cells, such as natural killer (NK, CD56 or CD57) cells are not active enough and need to be increased. NK cells are protective against the reactivation of latent infection. It is the absence of a competent innate (NK) immune response that causes increased inflammatory chemokine release due to uncontrolled pathogen replication. In other words, POISers experience a temporary immuno-compromised state triggered by certain neurohormones (adrenaline, PGE2, etc...) of the sexual response cycle.
In the paper "Immunophenotypical Characterization of a Brazilian POIS patient (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2019.1677835?journalCode=usmt20)", the POIS patient was found to be deficient in cytotoxic natural killer (NK) cells and B lymphocyte cells, and an over expression of monocytes. The aurthors of this paper also note that:
"Some studies have shown a decrease of NK cell percentage in association with a reduction of activity of these cells in peripheral blood of patients with depression. Other mental disorders such as mental stress, autism and obsessive-compulsive disorder have also been reported to present lower NK cell activity."
The deficiency in Natural Killers indicates that immune suppression could be preventing this patient from forming a competent immune response. The deficiency in B cells may indicate that immune tolerance is preventing humoral immunity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humoral_immunity) from correcting the problem associated with POIS. Without a competent humoral/memory immunity, the immune system treats the reactivation of latent infections as if it is a new/acute infection. One of the main signaling roles of spermine and kynurenine is to induce immune tolerance to foreign substances and DNA. This immune tolerance can inhibit the formation of cytotoxic T cell memory of pathogens and prevent a competent humoral response.
Since, most POISers recover from POIS in the 5 to 7 day range. The time kinetics of NK, T, B cells seems to suggest that, in the absence of an immunocompetent NK response, POIS recovery is correlated with the time-dependent expansion of non-memory CD8+ T cells.
(https://i.imgur.com/B1vraoO.png)
Figure 7 from: Global Transcriptome Analysis in Influenza-Infected Mouse Lungs Reveals the Kinetics of Innate and Adaptive Host Immune Responses (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22815957)
This time-dependent increase in CD8 T cells occurs during sleep (How Sleep Fights Infection: Snoozing Makes Killer Immune Cells More Sticky (https://www.forbes.com/sites/fionamcmillan/2019/02/12/how-sleep-fights-infection-snoozing-makes-killer-immune-cells-more-sticky/#4ced31b227cd)). So, the sooner sleep occurs following orgasm, the sooner CD8 T cells can start replacing the function of NK cells in the immune response. Moreover, sleep deprivation has been shown to suppress NK cells in humans (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7871104), Ref2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25929826), Ref3 (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/01/980126060431.htm), Ref4 (https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/work-hour-training-for-nurses/02/05.html)). So good sleep is vital for immune function and recovery from POIS.
So this immune suppression model predicts that normal (non-POIS) people rely upon a transient increase in NK cell activity to suppress latent infections, while POISers rely upon the slower CD8 T cell increase to control those same latent infections. This means that POISers should experience a (days-long) elevation in chemokines due to the delay in time that it takes the adaptive (non-memory) T cells to respond. Transient PGE2 release induces the arginase-1 and IDO1 mediated suppression of innate cells (namely Natural Killers).
Hi!!! Just posting to say that I'm the brazilian guy of the study...
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Hi!!! Just posting to say that I'm the brazilian guy of the study...
Hi fidalgo, welcome to the forum!
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Hi All,
I'm sorry for the slow reply. I haven't been on the forum as much lately.
Regarding your older postings which focus on reducing inflammation by reducing Arachidonic acid: Are you still vegan?
I am no longer vegan, I am no longer taking the POIS Cascade Stack. But I am not experiencing POIS symptoms except for an itch/tingle on the left side of my chin.
What is your explanation for your almost complete remission of symptoms in the absence of supplementation? :)
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I applaud the mods to move this post here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788 at the top of this topic here https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0 and to stay there permanently with updates patterns.
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What is your explanation for your almost complete remission of symptoms in the absence of supplementation? :)
The answer is on top of this theme, permantent remove of transient immune drop response (removing drop of immunity! Simplified).
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I applaud the mods to move this post here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788 at the top of this topic here https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0 and to stay there permanently with updates patterns.
Or make a new thead in the same forum category with a similar thread title and update that one.
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Right now immune support items are harder to get. What would be the minimum daily stack that you feel would be effective? I've had many immune problems (constant brain fog) and POIS makes them significantly worse - but it feels like allowing latent problems to worsen, which supports the immune function theory I would think.
Thanks!
These are small suppliers that I have successfully bought immuno complex; hilife and natural healthy concepts. I just ordered one from netnutri, we will see how they turn out.
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Hi Nanna1,
I have started on AHCC. I hope it will work for me.
The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased.
Hope I can ask - did you start seeing the first signs of symptom remission with AHCC immediately or only after many weeks? I realise I am assuming AHCC was the key supplement to reverse POIS in your immune competence stack even though you were taking others like - Copper gluconate, Vitamin C etc.
I tried a caffeine + l-theanine combination supplement (100 mg + 100 mg before O) for transient immune suppression along with Echinacea (250 mg once daily) for immune activation. My POIS cycle usually takes 3-4 days, good thing is that it reduced to 2 days and has remained at that. But the symptoms I have on day 1 is as intense as earlier (i.e without supplements). I have been doing this dosage for nearly 1.5 months now.
I tried Echinacea first for immune activation instead of AHCC since it was cheaper and readily available in a nearby store. Also there were few studies that showed it increases NK cells:
Enhancement of Natural Killer Cells and Increased Survival of Aging Mice Fed Daily Echinacea Root Extract From Youth
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16041619/
Echinacea Purpurea and Melatonin Augment Natural-Killer Cells in Leukemic Mice and Prolong Life Span
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11439845/
I also tried an increased dosage of Echinacea (500 mg once daily). Despite that it did not reduce the POIS duration below 2 days. Maybe I should experiment with a larger dose of L-Theanine also (you had recommended 300 mg) to see if it makes a larger difference than Echinacea. But for immune activation I am now switching over to AHCC from Echinacea.
Thank you.
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Hi Nanna1
Is l-citrulline ok to use instead or is citrulline malate needed? I have found that citrulline malate has only half the amount of l citrulline in than the amount advertised, was this considered when you suggested it. And also a lot of the workout supplements with the right ingredients only have
l-citrulline.
Is only caffeine fine to use as an arginase inhibitor?
Kingfisher
I have started using the immuno complex for one day and already feel a lot better from it. However half the Copper gluconate dose on the other hand does give some brain fog maybe I should try with food.
Thanks
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Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?
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Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?
copper gluconate empty stomach - i wait one hr before eating
immuno complex - 15 - 20 minutes before a meal, according to nanna1 it needs food
beta glucan - you can use anytime, nanna1 does not mention anything and the package does not say anything.
From my experience this stack activates the immune system. It has reduced the effects h-pylori. I had some things that have been on my body for a while that started clearing up withing days of the stack and disappeared in about two weeks.
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I think he was asking whether to take the copper and beta gluconate 3 times a day or not.
From my understanding I think Nanna meant only to take the copper and beta glucan once a day.
The immune activation stack is working really well for me, the copper gluconate had been throwing me off a bit at first but its getting better. It seems like this stack could be the end of everything. The most helpful things seem to be the copper and the immuno complex supplements.
Thank you Nanna for this you are a lifesaver!
Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?
copper gluconate empty stomach - i wait one hr before eating
immuno complex - 15 - 20 minutes before a meal, according to nanna1 it needs food
beta glucan - you can use anytime, nanna1 does not mention anything and the package does not say anything.
From my experience this stack activates the immune system. It has reduced the effects h-pylori. I had some things that have been on my body for a while that started clearing up withing days of the stack and disappeared in about two weeks.
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I think he was asking whether to take the copper and beta gluconate 3 times a day or not.
From my understanding I think Nanna meant only to take the copper and beta glucan once a day.
The immune activation stack is working really well for me, the copper gluconate had been throwing me off a bit at first but its getting better. It seems like this stack could be the end of everything. The most helpful things seem to be the copper and the immuno complex supplements.
If you are out of the US then you can't purchase the C4 ultimate version which is linked, this is the closest thing that I could find with the required ingredients https://www.dolphinfitness.co.uk/en/applied-nutrition-pump-3g-375g/205375
Thank you Nanna for this you are a lifesaver!
Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?
copper gluconate empty stomach - i wait one hr before eating
immuno complex - 15 - 20 minutes before a meal, according to nanna1 it needs food
beta glucan - you can use anytime, nanna1 does not mention anything and the package does not say anything.
From my experience this stack activates the immune system. It has reduced the effects h-pylori. I had some things that have been on my body for a while that started clearing up withing days of the stack and disappeared in about two weeks.
Good to know that it helps you. I wonder how it will improve later. I'm interested in seeing how this stack helps for you as you continue taking it.
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I think he was asking whether to take the copper and beta gluconate 3 times a day or not.
From my understanding I think Nanna meant only to take the copper and beta glucan once a day.
The immune activation stack is working really well for me, the copper gluconate had been throwing me off a bit at first but its getting better. It seems like this stack could be the end of everything. The most helpful things seem to be the copper and the immuno complex supplements.
If you are out of the US then you can't purchase the C4 ultimate version which is linked, this is the closest thing that I could find with the required ingredients https://www.dolphinfitness.co.uk/en/applied-nutrition-pump-3g-375g/205375
Thank you Nanna for this you are a lifesaver!
Yeah, I was wondering whether to take three times a day for the copper and beta glucans.
I just did 6 days on AHCC and copper, now on my second day off the cycle. Was feeling better on the AHCC, feeling a bit worse now that I've cycled off (which I kind of thought was the opposite of what was expected with immune activation).
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Yeah I also don't feel that bad now while taking them so do I even need to cycle off? Also how long is the immune activation stack suggested to be taken for in total?
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@Iwillbeatthis @hapl
What's your complete supplement stack?
What is your diet?
How is your sleep? (length, quality)
Did you anything change in your digestion?
How often do you O?
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@Iwillbeatthis @hapl
What's your complete supplement stack?
What is your diet?
How is your sleep? (length, quality)
Did you anything change in your digestion?
How often do you O?
@berlin
Stack right now is Immuno complex , copper gluconate and beta glucan and I was also having zeobent (a mix of zeolite and bentonite) before every meal. This was working well but I decided to stop the zeobent and haven't been feeling as good since I've stopped so I might start it again, I was just worried it might not be safe. I was also having fish oil capsules which had vitamin d which worked well and that ran out, so I bought a new liquid fish oil which was much stronger but this seems to throw me off balance and give some brain fog, I am not sure if its because of the strength, or that its liquid or because of the additional ingredients: Ascorbyl palmitate, rosmeary extract. I have also been having extreme pelvic pain and Im not sure if it was from the liquid fish oil or from stopping the zeobent.
I also have the applied nutrition Pump pre workout which I have just taken to try it out but haven't tested with O yet. I do seem to be apathetic from it and I'm not sure if its becuase of the L tyrosine. I have a high HVA/VMA ratio which is the balance between dopamine and norepinephrine/epinephrine production. Which means I'm dopamine heavy and L tyrosine is not reccomended for people with this high ratio. So not sure if I should stop it or not.
I have also been taking on and off - NAC to clear mucus and activated charcoal as a binder
I did have a wet dream since starting the stack and i didn't feel brain fog however I did feel nauseous and a little zoned out from the immune stack.
My diet is sweet potatoes with meat: salmon, beef, chicken or brown rice and onions with meat, I also eat celery and carrots, almonds and popcorn and toritlla chips and some fruit for snacks . I avoid broccoli, spinach because that makes me feel worse waking the next day but things have changed so maybe I should try it out again. I also avoid yoghurt and alcohol
I do have white rice and white potatoes from time to time but I do feel it the next day still.
Sleep is fine atm, I sleep for 7-9 hours. I O 1-2 times every month. I'm not sure if my digestion has been changed or not.
Hope this helps
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Is l-citrulline ok to use instead or is citrulline malate needed?
Is only caffeine fine to use as an arginase inhibitor?
@Iwillbeatthis I don?t know much about the bioavailability of l-citrulline but I encourage experimentation.
If you can find another arginase inhibitor that has pre-pack pharmackinetics, that should be fine. PDE5 inhibitors Viagra and Cialis are also arginase inhibitors, but I have never taken them.
Nanna1 - is the copper gluconate and beta-glucan meant to be taken three times a day on an empty stomach, or only the Immuno Complex?
copper gluconate empty stomach - i wait one hr before eating
immuno complex - 15 - 20 minutes before a meal, according to nanna1 it needs food
beta glucan - you can use anytime, nanna1 does not mention anything and the package does not say anything.
@ hapl, I agree with certainlypois2, but I will add one note. When I first started copper, I could only tolerate one dose per day because it made my stomach feel like it was going to vomit (bacteria die-off). After a few days, this feeling went away so I tried 2 times a day to increase the vomit feeling. Then I increased the dose to 3 times per day. I did not count how many weeks, but at a certain point I could take higher doses without feeling anything or even feeling better after copper. That's when I stopped taking copper. I don't think it is necessary to increase the dose or take multiple doses per day. I was impatient and personally willing to experiment on my body, but that doesn't mean that everyone is comfortable doing that. As long as you are consistent with the once a day, it should do it's job.
I tried a caffeine + l-theanine combination supplement (100 mg + 100 mg before O) for transient immune suppression along with Echinacea (250 mg once daily) for immune activation.
@kingfisher, I think that the ability of caffeine to block arginase and increase the production of nitric oxide from arginine/citrulline plays a role in the ability of this pre-pack to up regulate NK cell activity. NK cells consume a lot of arginine and nitric oxide. If you don't prefer citrulline, there may be other sources of nitric oxide that you can try such as beet/spinach nitrates.
The side-effects of caffeine come from an imbalance of the glutamate/dopamine ratio (too much glutamate, not enough dopamine). Theanine can help rebalance the glutamate/dopamine balance, but the optimum ratio for theanine:caffeine is 2:1 (in mg). I tried Echinacea but it did not do much for me. Let us know if you find some results with that.
The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased.
...did you start seeing the first signs of symptom remission with AHCC immediately or only after many weeks?...
My symptoms increased in the beginning, but these were not typical POIS symptoms. For example, I had a lot of face-muscle twitching on AHCC the first week, but this was s minor symptom that I sometimes experienced with POIS. I don't remember having an orgasm the first few weeks when I was trying AHCC (or I don't remember the symptoms). Eventually, I did experience more POIS like symptoms from taking AHCC, but it was never as bad as real POIS. I think that the path to symptom reduction will look a little different for each person. People who also take andrographis may not experience increased symptoms with AHCC. I read that andrographis speeds up the adaptive immunity, but initially I was not taking andrographis.
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I wanted to share my opinion on what could be happening with the therapy's affect on the body. Maybe this will help everyone know why I did it this way and how to modify the therapy if you want to try it a different way. I see the immune system like a janitor/custodian/maintenance team of the body because the immune cells are responsible for fixing many problems. For example:
- Fighting pathogens (bacteria, viruses, fungi)
- Killing cancer cells and tumors
- Quickly removing toxins, poisons, allergens and pathogens from the body (sneeze, sweat, cough, vomit, diarrhea, swelling)
- Killing and recycling damaged or aged cells (anti-aging, youth promotion)
- Wound healing (cleaning wound and providing growth hormones for repair)
- Communicating problems in the body (pain, fatigue) and shifting the body towards healing (fever, sleep induction)
- etc...
The job of immune cells is to fix any of these problems that happen. I might try to get rid of POIS by boosting the immune system, but the immune system does not know that I am trying to treat POIS. There may be other problems in the body (arthritis, cancer cells, toxin build-up, etc...) that are not related to POIS. Because of limited resources, the immune system can only handle a certain number of problems at one time. When I boost my immune system, the first thing that will happen is that these cells will start trying to fix problems. The infection that is likely causing POIS is somewhere in the queue (or list) of problems that the immune system will try to solve. But I do not know how to get the immune system to only focus on POIS (or put POIS first in line).
(https://i.imgur.com/JqGbTmx.png)
There were two main stages of immune activation that I was focused on hacking: the acute/novel and the immunocompetence stage. When a pathogen/toxin/problem/etc... is first introduced to the body, many of the immune cells respond and the immune system tries to control the problem through a trial-and-error process. These cells use cytokines and hormones to communicate partly because they don't yet know what the best way is to deal with the pathogen. The communication (cytokines, hormones) involves positive and negative feedback loops that have the overall effect of reducing ineffective immune strategies while promoting the most efficient and effective immune cell types. This discovery process is very resource/energy/nutrient expensive for the body and usually involves a lot of symptoms (pain, fatigue, etc...).
Once the immune system finds an efficient solution to the problem using the fewest immune cells and the least resources, it memorizes this solution (adaptive immunity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DFN4IBZ3rI)). This second stage is called immunocompetence, and it solves the problem (killing pathogens, kill cancer, etc...) efficiently, producing the fewest symptoms.
As an example, when you get an acute infection with the flu virus many cell types activate (neutrophils, monocytes, lymphocytes, basophils, etc...). Most of these immune cells are not effective or efficient at stopping the virus. So there are many symptoms that occur while the immune system figures out how to fight the virus. Eventually, the immune system discovers that the best strategy (with the fewest symptoms) uses natural killer (NK) cells, CD8/CD4 memory T cells and B cell antibodies. The next time this flu virus infects, more resources are devoted to NK, T, and B cells which quickly remove the virus without causing symptoms. This is immunocompetence.
One goal I had with doing this therapy on myself was to force the immune system into immunocompetence. POIS may not be the first problem or the highest priority for the immune system to solve. But boosting the immune system over an extended period of time can give it enough time to do trial-and-error and discover the most efficient strategy for solving each problem that it finds.
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What is intresting that some poisers has been helped by taking SNRI before O and antihistamines with pseudoephedrine , then on the other side, some of them has been helped by betablockers.
It will be intresting to prove (N. Jiang, et al, 2015) mu-opioid receptor hypothesis in poisers and theory of lack of NK cells response too.
I see that b-endorphins are syntysised in P-gland...soo, something inhibit that acording to N. Jiang...
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Zeobent synergises very well with the immuno complex for me, I thought I wouldn't need the zeobent anymore so I stopped but I felt sluggish and bad without it. I feel super high functioning with this mix.
Zeolite- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6983480/
Zeolite - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6277462/
Bentonite - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5632318/
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Right now immune support items are harder to get. What would be the minimum daily stack that you feel would be effective? I've had many immune problems (constant brain fog) and POIS makes them significantly worse - but it feels like allowing latent problems to worsen, which supports the immune function theory I would think.
Thanks!
These are small suppliers that I have successfully bought immuno complex; hilife and natural healthy concepts. I just ordered one from netnutri, we will see how they turn out.
Net Nutri Successful!
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Would it be advisable to supplement iron if you're taking copper every day? My understanding was that copper on its own might throw off the balance with iron, but I'm going by memory here.
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Originally, I thought that the POIS cascade stack cured my IBS, but when I cycled off my old stack for too long the IBS would return slowly but with less intensity than before.
Copper initially caused diarrhea and stomach pain in the area where I would normally get IBS, with a little nausea. But after a while of cycling copper on-and-off and gradually taking it more often throughout the day, the stomach problems caused by copper went away. And the IBS from POIS also went away at the same time.
It definitely seems like a common theme from you and amongst others that when IBS is no longer present POIS also disappears. If I remember correctly from your Cascade stack thread you were also using a vegan diet. Member GLC also had remission of his POIS with diet. Kurtosis reportedly had remission by solving his SIBO. I have no doubt the immune system is involved in POIS but perhaps by fixing the gut you can fix the immune system without having to boost it with supplements.
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Avoidance of meat could be avoidance of his personal MC trigger.
He also gets symptoms from exercise which can be another trigger:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7003574/figure/F1/
COX inhibitors are being used to inhibit mediator production in MCs, page 207 table 3:
https://www.jillcarnahan.com/downloads/MCAS-Afrin.pdf
IBS and SIBO are common in MCAS. Diet is a valid treatment option.
Mast cells can change their reactivity.
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On the day after O, I also note that my gut feels worse.
Zeobent synergises very well with the immuno complex for me, I thought I wouldn't need the zeobent anymore so I stopped but I felt sluggish and bad without it. I feel super high functioning with this mix.
Bentonite and Zeolite claim to absorb "toxins" and decrease gut wall permeability (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26500463/).
There is this thing called "Leaky Gut Syndrome" caused by Gluten/WGA (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3705319/) and possibly Casein. It's one of the reasons I'm cutting out Wheat/Dairy (except butter) and I feel much better general health wise with that.
So my idea would be: Are we both achieving the same thing by different means? I cut out the causing food, you use Zeobent to combat the "leakiness" caused by some foods?
So let's assume the gut barrier is one way to stress the immune system and keep it from fighting the other problematic sites in your body, then for sure the mouth is another site causing problems: See the thread about gingivitis (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2904.msg34461#msg34461).
PS: I'm tempted to give Zeobent a try, but I feel I tried already too many things and supplements in my life.
I'm still hoping for the AHCC to kick in more. And I got the Vitamin C IV scheduled for June :-)
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I. prevent transient immune suppression
Note that a weak immune system is also highly represented in the nofap community it seems:
https://www.google.com/search?q=nofap+immune&oq=nofap+immune
(it's even the first Google suggestion if you just type "nofap i")
(And yes, the over-masturbators obviously remove all their zinc from their body and somehow "kill" their dopamine system.. there's a reason masturbation is seen as bad in religious texts worldwide)
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The same effect happen with AHCC and the nerve-pain/muscle-twitch. Once increasing my AHCC dose could no longer produce nerve pain, the pains and muscle-twitch that I used to experience during POIS also disapeared.
I discovered that a lot of us have neutropenia or near to it.
Nanna1 put it in table (it is rare), but not all poisers have it!
Thanks Hopeoneday for finding the neutropenia correlation!
According to https://draxe.com/nutrition/copper-deficiency/ :
Some possible symptoms of copper deficiency include:
Anemia
Bone abnormalities
Osteoporosis
Copper deficiency neuropathy
Low numbers of white blood cells known as neutrophils (neutropenia)
Increased susceptibility to infection
Impaired growth
Premature graying of hair/hair with less pigment than normal
Skin paleness
Neurological symptoms
According to https://www.psychguides.com/neurological-disorders/ :
Physical symptoms of neurological problems may include the following:
Partial or complete paralysis
Muscle weakness
Partial or complete loss of sensation
Seizures
Difficulty reading and writing
Poor cognitive abilities
Unexplained pain
Decreased alertness
^ I don't know which one of all those symptoms you had, but the POIS state also sounds like a (temporary?) copper deficiency?
But those symptom lists are (hopefully) drawn from the general average population, so they should have people with latent viruses, fungi, parasites etc, so it still makes sense that killing the root causes would then decrease your need for copper at the later "healed" stage.
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Stack right now is Immuno complex , copper gluconate
Would match supplements recommended here https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322543#diet for Histamine Intolerance.
beta glucans
Can help relieve hay fever symptoms
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3951572/
I was also having zeobent (a mix of zeolite and bentonite) before every meal. This was working well but I decided to stop the zeobent and haven't been feeling as good since I've stopped so I might start it again, I was just worried it might not be safe.
I didn't really know Zeobent (or the two basic ingredients) and I found it very interesting that the product descriptions claims that it binds Histamine in the gut.
I was also having fish oil capsules which had vitamin d which worked well and that ran out,
Fish oil is recommended for hay fever / allergies (histamine...) https://www.nutriadvanced.co.uk/news/hay-fever-the-facts/
Vitamin D in general good I guess :-)
I have also been taking on and off - NAC to clear mucus
Yeah, I also take it against mucus.
This website claims it's also good for histamine intolerance (however if I google studies about it, they claim it releases Histamine?) https://factvsfitness.com/7-best-supplements-histamine-intolerance/
I also avoid yoghurt and alcohol
Contain histamine and contain+release histamine.
I do have white rice and white potatoes from time to time but I do feel it the next day still.
A potatoe and rice diet is actually recommended to test histamine intolerance.
My diet is sweet potatoes with meat: salmon, beef, chicken or brown rice and onions with meat, I also eat celery and carrots, almonds and popcorn and toritlla chips and some fruit for snacks . I avoid broccoli, spinach because that makes me feel worse waking the next day but things have changed so maybe I should try it out again.
I'm curious if you cross out the foods there that are recommended for avoiding histamine intolerance symptoms, if that changes anything.
https://www.histaminintoleranz.ch/en/introduction.html
We can also continue this discussion in this other thread as to not hijack the one here...
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=820.msg34743#msg34743
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III. Broad Spectrum Pathogen load reduction
**This is designed to kill pathogens in the body without needing to know which pathogenic infections are present.**
Intravenous ascorbate (vitamin C drip 5g, repeated three consecutive days) (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776)
copper gluconate (2mg repeated three consecutive days, >3hrs prior to IV ascorbate)
I did one too (thanks nanna1 for the idea):
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg34773#msg34773
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Hi Nanna
I have just discorvered that pre workout supplement I have has l tyrosine in and not N-acetyl tyrosine does this matter? I have also discovered that it has AAKG (Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate) I should have searched this abreviation before I bought it. I'm guessing I should stop this Pre workout supplement then. Its annoying because the only pre workout with the good ingredients is only available for shipping to America.
Also I don't really feel a fog that feels like an immune reaction anymore now it just feels like a lack of norepinephrine brain fog. What drug/supplement would you take yourself if you wanted to boost norepinephrine. My metabolic urine test showed I am dopamine heavy and have trouble converting into norepinephrine. What do you think about droxidopa?
Copper and vitamin c don't seem to be enough for me in boosting norepinephrine.
My POIS doctor won't prescribe me Indomethacin because he says its too toxic.
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My POIS doctor won't prescribe me Indomethacin because he says its too toxic.
Could you ask your POIS doctor if we could put him on the list of POIS doctors?
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2575.0
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He's already on the list and I wrote a new post on that topic earlier please check it out
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Hi Nanna
I have just discorvered that pre workout supplement I have has l tyrosine in and not N-acetyl tyrosine does this matter? I have also discovered that it has AAKG (Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate) I should have searched this abreviation before I bought it. I'm guessing I should stop this Pre workout supplement then. Its annoying because the only pre workout with the good ingredients is only available for shipping to America.
Also I don't really feel a fog that feels like an immune reaction anymore now it just feels like a lack of norepinephrine brain fog. What drug/supplement would you take yourself if you wanted to boost norepinephrine. My metabolic urine test showed I am dopamine heavy and have trouble converting into norepinephrine. What do you think about droxidopa?
Copper and vitamin c don't seem to be enough for me in boosting norepinephrine.
My POIS doctor won't prescribe me Indomethacin because he says its too toxic.
I have been having excellent results with milnacipran, which is a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor. Obviously it is a prescription drug that could only be taken after consulting with a doctor.
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I have been having excellent results with milnacipran, which is a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor. Obviously it is a prescription drug that could only be taken after consulting with a doctor.
This is complit the oposite from this theory here.
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I have been having excellent results with milnacipran, which is a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor. Obviously it is a prescription drug that could only be taken after consulting with a doctor.
This is complit the oposite from this theory here.
Hi Hopeoneday,
NRIs are said to increase norepinephrine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine_reuptake_inhibitor
A norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (NRI, NERI) or noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor or adrenergic reuptake inhibitor (ARI), is a type of drug that acts as a reuptake inhibitor for the neurotransmitters norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinephrine (adrenaline) by blocking the action of the norepinephrine transporter (NET). This in turn leads to increased extracellular concentrations of norepinephrine and epinephrine and therefore can increase adrenergic neurotransmission.
Because milnacipran increases serotonin and norepinephrine levels by inhibiting reuptake at presynaptic sites rather than through interaction with postsynaptic serotonergic and noradrenergic receptors, this drug is expected to have a side-effect profile consistent with increased peripheral exposure to these neurotransmitters
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3383514/
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I have been having excellent results with milnacipran, which is a norepinephrine uptake inhibitor. Obviously it is a prescription drug that could only be taken after consulting with a doctor.
This is complit the oposite from this theory here.
Not neccessarily, at least it's the same receptor family, perhaps a paradoxical reaction this guy is having. Or perhaps there is an opposing effect immediately after starting with the drug. The body balances the now excess noradrenaline to normalize the response (homeostasis) and in turn decreasing the noradrenergic response.
Or an overexpression of receptors is downregulated by the excess noradrenalin, but that process takes weeks, so not plausible here.
Source: clinical psychologist
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Has anybody tried this and found that it made POIS worse? I'd already been taking some of the supplements, but adding more vitamin C, doing a 5G IV drip, and adding those immuno-stimulants seems to have increased POIS duration by 1.5 days.
Anyone else have that experience?
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I also tried this, but found consistent use of the stack to be unbearable. After a couple days in a new of taking it I felt extreme fatigue, brain fog and found that I was pushed into a depressive state. I continued to push through cycling on and off for 2 months and I have unfortunately found little improvement. Granted, I did not reach a point where taking the stack did not trigger symptoms. I also did not do the IV Vitamin C or consistently take copper but I was hesitant to add more given my reaction to the stack.
I do think the prepack seems to help, though. I also found that taking a small dose of AHHC seemed to give me an energy boost when in a POIS state.
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I also tried this, but found consistent use of the stack to be unbearable. After a couple days in a new of taking it I felt extreme fatigue, brain fog and found that I was pushed into a depressive state. I continued to push through cycling on and off for 2 months and I have unfortunately found little improvement. Granted, I did not reach a point where taking the stack did not trigger symptoms. I also did not do the IV Vitamin C or consistently take copper but I was hesitant to add more given my reaction to the stack.
I do think the prepack seems to help, though. I also found that taking a small dose of AHHC seemed to give me an energy boost when in a POIS state.
The IV Vitamin C is the main component of this proposed treatment, right? So that's missing.
If your response is that intense perhaps this points to a virus activation on your part explaining the fatigue?
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Has anybody tried this and found that it made POIS worse? I'd already been taking some of the supplements, but adding more vitamin C, doing a 5G IV drip, and adding those immuno-stimulants seems to have increased POIS duration by 1.5 days.
Anyone else have that experience?
My journey is from here: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg34773#msg34773
I have the 3rd IV scheduled for monday.. what convinced me was https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23776#msg23776 .. i have quite a weird general fatigue that comes and goes from time to time.(maybe corelated with what some call "non orgasm triggers of POIS state")
But I'm not exactly doing this stack, I do some other pathogen killing things additionally and instead taking less AHCC. I also take more Eccinacea, it seems to me a useful general herb like Aswagandha.
I also started St. John's Wort some days ago.
I'm also trying breathing exercises (breathe slower and only through nose, try to hold breath, breathe deeply with volume instead of often and shallow)
(yes, too many things at once, I'm not a good scientist..)
So far my general well being is improved, I also didn't get the POIS headaches anymore. But to be honest I'm avoiding orgasms from masturbation completely, only sex is allowed.
I also remember somewhere nanna1 wrote that temporarily feeling worse is to be expected.
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Thanks for sharing your experiences! I decided to stop doing this because it was making POIS about as bad as it's ever been. With Vitamin D and my diet changes I had it down to 1.5 days (1 with NSAID and 0 with prednisone). After trying this, it was back up to 7 days of really intense symptoms. It was definitely worth a try though given the possible benefits.
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"a monocyte increase and an NK cell decrease were observed in the patient with POIS in comparison to the controls, with a reduction in total B cells and normal T cells count. Some studies have shown a decrease of NK cell percentage in association with a reduction of activity of these cells in peripheral blood of patients with depression. Other mental disorders such as mental stress, autism and obsessive-compulsive disorder have also been reported to present lower NK cell activity."[/i]
-De Amicis, K., et. al., "Immunophenotypical Characterization of a Brazilian POIS (Post-Orgasmic Illness Syndrome) Patient: Adding More Pieces to Puzzle" (2019) (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2019.1677835)[/center]"
vs
Hey. Not sure if this has been posted. There is a study published on 15/06/20 by Japanese researchers. Conclusion is that NSAIDs are 'effective' in managing POIS.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cia2.12123
"The symptoms were always induced after masturbation. He had no partner, had never had sexual intercourse, and experienced premature ejaculation. In addition, he had suffered from moderate atopic dermatitis (AD)"
vs
"Natural killer cell dysregulation underlies atopic dermatitis"
"AD commonly presents in childhood and is known to be complicated by reduced antiviral skin immunity"
https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/1_Supplement/45.37
vs
"Defective NK cell activity in a mouse model of eczema herpeticum"
"We infected AD-like skin lesions with HSV1 to induce severe skin lesions in a dermatitis-prone mouse strain of NC/Nga. "
"Eczematous mice exhibited lower NK cell activity, but similar cytotoxic T cell activity and humoral immune responses, compared with normal mice."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5276800/
(Don't google for pictures of eczema herpeticum if you're scared easily. As I understand they make an existing eczema worse by using virusses)
vs
I also used to have eczema on the heel of my foot. This was not associated with orgasm or any related activity. Both the acne and eczema that I have dealt with since I was a teenager have cleared up. And I never get acne now, no matter what junk-food I eat :). Side note: I did use tea tree oil on the eczema also.
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Alright, so after reading nanna1's research and giving it some thought, I'm convinced that my POIS must have been activated by a viral infection from either HHV or HPV. I know that I have at least one of the viruses - HHV. And still very likely have HPV. Therefore, I could potentially benefit from this therapy. So 3 main reasons why I believe this could be it:
Weak Immunity: My immunity is weak and compromised. My last 3 blood tests from May, June and July have shown low Neutrophyl count. This could indicate that there's an infection.
HPV: I had a genital wart caused by a HPV infection about 7 years ago and got treated with cryotheraphy. I believe this virus had not been cleared from my body and continues to evolve.
The evidence for this is a mild penile melanosis developed since about 4 years ago on glans of my penis. Possibly caused by HPV, which often is the virus that causes penile cancer. I've noticed that my penile melanosis gets darker and expands in POIS state. Even though all my STD/UTI tests have tested negative, my penis hurts and has inflammation after ejaculation and sometimes even hurts without ejaculation, POIS or arousal. I will give my melanosis tissue for a biopsy in near future.
HHV: I have recurring mouth cold sores. Actually had one last week and treated it with Zovirax.
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So I have bought literally everything from this stack and will arrange an IV therapy. I have a few questions and would really, really appreaciate some input.
1) How long should you be on this whole therapy treatment? Is 1 month long enough? Too long?
2) Must IV drip sessions be consecutive? 3 days in a row?
3) Does it have to be 5g of Vitamin C IV or can I choose a bigger dose?
4) 3 hours before Vitamic C IV, should I consume copper on empty stomach or with food?
5) Is Quercetin worth adding to this stack since it boosts immunity?
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My last 3 blood tests from May, June and July have shown low Neutrophyl count.
You may post your results here:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0
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My last 3 blood tests from May, June and July have shown low Neutrophyl count.
You may post your results here:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0
Ok sure. I'll share my results later when I'll find time to assemble it.
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5) Is Quercetin worth adding to this stack since it boosts immunity?
No idea, but if you're looking for cheap things to add that don't seem to have side effects, I'd pick
* Lysine (more than 1.5g per day if I remember correctly)
* Monolaurine or just coconut oil/fat.
Both claim to be antiviral by inhibiting the replication. So you won't have an immediate effect, but it should build up over time by making the body create broken virusses(?).
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5) Is Quercetin worth adding to this stack since it boosts immunity?
No idea, but if you're looking for cheap things to add that don't seem to have side effects, I'd pick
* Lysine (more than 1.5g per day if I remember correctly)
* Monolaurine or just coconut oil/fat.
Both claim to be antiviral by inhibiting the replication. So you won't have an immediate effect, but it should build up over time by making the body create broken virusses(?).
Interesting! Lysine seems effective against HHV-1, could work well when combined with anti-HPV properties of AHCC. I eat coconut oil everyday though so I'm getting plenty of monolaurin..
Btw berlin1984, I've read about your gingivitis problem. I used to have that too but after using an electric toothbrush, gengigel mouthwash, sensodyne pronamel, and floss everyday I have healed my gums completely. I also avoid sugar, which was major cause of my dental health problems.
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Differential effects of testosterone on circulating neutrophils, monocytes, and platelets in men: Findings from two trials (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/andr.12834)
"Conclusions
Testosterone administration in men differentially increases neutrophil and monocyte counts. These findings, together with its erythropoietic effects, suggest that testosterone promotes the differentiation of hematopoietic progenitors into the myeloid lineage. These findings have potential mechanistic, therapeutic, and safety implications."
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Теория весьма интересная!
У меня есть несколько простых вопросов, которые, как мне кажется, не вписываются в теорию ))
1. Иммунный всплеск на эякуляцию является не самым сильным. К примеру, иммунный ответ на вирусную инфекцию будет больше. И тогда при вирусной инфекции должен быть туман в голове намного сильнее, чем от эякуляции. Но есть много свидетельств, что при вирусных инфекциях POIS наоборот проходит! Почему?
2. Основной симптом POIS это туман в голове. Почему недостаток иммунитета действует так избирательно?
Спасибо )
The theory is very interesting!
I have a few simple questions that don't seem to fit into theory))
1. The immune surge on ejaculation is not the strongest. For example, the immune response to a viral infection will be greater. And then with a viral infection there should be a fog in the head much stronger than from ejaculation. But there is a lot of evidence that in case of viral infections, POIS, on the contrary, disappears! Why?
2. The main symptom of POIS is fog in the head. Why is the lack of immunity so selective?
Thank )
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slon_ik, thank you for posting!
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Russian POISCenter.net + POISCenter.com = 2 brains better than 1?
CC: POIS Research Team, Shep, Anonymous Donor, Daveman
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1. The immune surge on ejaculation is not the strongest. For example, the immune response to a viral infection will be greater. And then with a viral infection there should be a fog in the head much stronger than from ejaculation. But there is a lot of evidence that in case of viral infections, POIS, on the contrary, disappears! Why?
2. The main symptom of POIS is fog in the head. Why is the lack of immunity so selective?
Hi slon_ik,
Thanks for the question
1. The answer to your question can be found here (Diseases associated with herpes virus infection (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23765#msg23765)). Many viral infections do not disappear, they remain latent and cause life-long disease.
The increase in NK cell immune response to orgasm should not depend on what infections you have. It is a genetically encoded action of the immune system that prevents viral reactivation and spread. All people should have an immune response to sexual activity to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted disease (STD/STI) and guard sperm transit through the uterus. But some infections (virus/bacteria/fungi) try to prevent or evade this immune response.
2. The answer to your question can be found here (POIS as a location-specific herpes infection (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23766#msg23766)). Most herpes viral infections are local and isolated to a specific part of the body. For some people, HSV-1 causes cold-sores on there lips but no where else on their body. Herpes viruses, HPV, hepatitis viruses and many other viruses produce mostly local symptoms from local (isolated) infection.
I hope that helps. :)
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Note that neutrophils and NK cells work together to fight infection. When NK cells are suppressed during infection, this could cause neutrophils to be overun and depleted.
Dark Chocolate Intake Acutely Enhances Neutrophil Count in Peripheral Venous Blood
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5835384/
A significant increase of both WBC and neutrophils counts was observed 4 hours after dark chocolate intake, whereas the other parameters of WBC remained unmodified.
Some quotes from the forum, there are other effects at play too (polyphenol stuff, antioxidant, theobromine as caffeine, antiviral activity? etc..)
Dark Chocolate ( cacao 70% ) improve all POIS symptoms
This is very important to read all POIS suffered.
Here's my experienced with my weapons and POIS monster.
The most effective weapons I have found out so far to kill POIS monster. Here's the list
...
. Dark chocolate: Help my cognitive functions
(3) Low dose caffeine
- Even though I'm highly sensitive to coffee, I still need low levels of caffeine to regulate my mental clarity for work.
- I've found that incrementally dosing on 70% dark chocolate works best. It's easy to monitor and carry around.
- (if interested, try 'Lindt Excellence' blocks. The one without milk. Ingredients are just cocoa mass, sugar, cocoa butter and vanilla);
- My dose range is about 10-15 grams of this brand's chocolate. However I suspect everyone's different. I've had mixed results with other formulas of Lindt and other brands. Decaffeinated coffee also works well but its harder to manage the dosage.
dark pure 70% chocolate the day before
intercourse with wife early Saturday morning
And happily -- chocolate (Theobroma cacao) has an extremely high antioxidant polyphenol content, and provides cardio-protection. Even small amounts of cocoa can reduce cholesterol in the blood, and can lower blood pressure. Dark chocolate is the most healthy (70%) and there are brands that contain chile, giving it a spicy edge.
How could I have omitted the mention of chocolate?
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Note that neutrophils and NK cells work together to fight infection. When NK cells are suppressed during infection, this could cause neutrophils to be overun and depleted.
Cat's claw (supplement from a tree, not a cat) sounds interesting too with regards to immune cells and maybe even antiviral.
I find only one useful mention in the forum:
My whole diet that 100% manages my POIS post. I can pretty much vouch for it. I also microdose turmeric, b-complex, and cats claw. They help with inflammation and increase energy.
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Dark chocolate works for me too for many years. I can eat small piece and then watch ongoing brain function boost and physical energy boost as time goes by. The only problems for me are heat in a face some time after (known MCAS symptom, but maybe there's something else) and unpleasant tension in the neck. But lately I've been on a lot of dark choclate almost daily. And one whole pack provides me with energy boost that allows me to stay up for 20-24 hours even on a zero or first pois days. Though next morning I'll be walking dead (before I start consuming choclate again)
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Dark chocolate is rich in phenols. Hyperactivity can be a sign of phenol intolerance.
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Dark chocolate is rich in phenols. Hyperactivity can be a sign of phenol intolerance.
Thats intersting. I managed to get one day without any problems after coffee(besides hyperacitivity one cause I still not shure what it is, and neck stifness.. but it was gone completely after antispasmodic)
Slept not really much and managed to keep my head vert this night so no brainfog, headaches or hearing problems appeared.
After chocolate head problems not that hard but keeping head awa from gettin horizontal definietly helps always. Especially in the moments when I become tired and frozen all of the sudden and lay to rest a bit.
When Is tarted to consume these amounts of choclate I was on some head bloodflow meds and during that time I could almost freely eat chcolate and even pizzas and other junk which affect my head really bad usually so bloodflow is a big problem in my case. Though phenol intolerance may affect vessels walls from what I read so whpo knows.
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I applaud the mods to move this post here
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788) at the top of this topic here https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0) and to stay there permanently with updates patterns.
It is not possible to move single posts or re-order them in a thread.
If you want a post to appear in another thread, you can go to that post, click on "quote", copy the whole quote, open a reply box in that other thread, and paste the quote in this other thread. The quote will show who initially wrote the post, but the post will be under your name.
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Hi slon_ik,
Thanks for the question
1. The answer to your question can be found here (Diseases associated with herpes virus infection (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23765#msg23765)). Many viral infections do not disappear, they remain latent and cause life-long disease.
The increase in NK cell immune response to orgasm should not depend on what infections you have. It is a genetically encoded action of the immune system that prevents viral reactivation and spread. All people should have an immune response to sexual activity to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted disease (STD/STI) and guard sperm transit through the uterus. But some infections (virus/bacteria/fungi) try to prevent or evade this immune response.
2. The answer to your question can be found here (POIS as a location-specific herpes infection (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23766#msg23766)). Most herpes viral infections are local and isolated to a specific part of the body. For some people, HSV-1 causes cold-sores on there lips but no where else on their body. Herpes viruses, HPV, hepatitis viruses and many other viruses produce mostly local symptoms from local (isolated) infection.
I hope that helps. :)
Спасибо за ответ! ))
Ваши теории понятны и весьма похожи на истину.
Но я всегда задаю простые вопросы ))
У всех людей с герпесом будет POIS?
На этот вопрос вы отвечаете, что POIS отличается локализацией герпеса в участке ЦНС.
Тогда следующий простой вопрос.
У всех людей с герпесом в локальном участке ЦНС будет POIS?
Я думаю, что герпес может быть одной из причин поражения ЦНС, которые дают симптомы POIS. И тогда основной акцент надо делать не на герпес и его лечение, а на участок ЦНС и механизмы его работы.
Спасибо ))
И прощу прощение, что долго не отвечал ))
Thanks for the answer! ))
Your theories are understandable and very similar to the truth.
But I always ask simple questions))
Will all people with herpes have POIS?
To this question, you answer that POIS differs in the localization of herpes in the central nervous system.
Then the next simple question.
Will all people with herpes at the local CNS have POIS?
I think that herpes can be one of the causes of CNS lesions that give POIS symptoms. And then the main emphasis should be placed not on herpes and its treatment, but on the central nervous system and the mechanisms of its work.
Thank ))
And forgive me for not answering for a long time))
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Will all people with herpes have POIS?
To this question, you answer that POIS differs in the localization of herpes in the central nervous system.
Then the next simple question.
Will all people with herpes at the local CNS have POIS?
Hi slon_ik,
Thanks for the questions. Virus latency is an important concept in this hypothesis. See link below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus_latency
slon_ik, there are still unanswered questions in POIS research though. Originally, I thought POIS might be triggered from the CNS, but now I'm thinking it is triggered in the autonomic nervous system. I just haven't updated that post that I sent you to reflect this. Sorry for the confusion.
My guess is that there is a latent infection somewhere in the autonomic (sympathetic/parasympathetic/enteric (https://publish.imotions.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Sympathetic-parasympathetic-nervous-systems.png)) nervous system that is reactivated by adrenergic (adrenaline/noradrenaline) stimulation. The majority of people on earth have localized herpes infections and each persons infection location/volume is slightly different. Part of this hypothesis is that, if the person does not have the infection in the specific POIS location within the nervous system, they will likely not have POIS.
So far, the submitted POISer data (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0) (MRI, CT of the brain) does not show brain lesions. Are you aware of medical data from POISers that show lesions? That would be very important information for identifying the location in the body where POIS could be triggered. I don't have enough evidence to show that herpes viruses are the infections. Several herpes viruses do have the properties of being reactivated by adrenergic receptors, latency, and COX-2 upregulation, but so do other viruses like human papillomavirus (HPV). Bacteria involvement has also not been ruled out as a cause or co-cause of POIS.
And then the main emphasis should be placed not on herpes and its treatment, but on the central nervous system and the mechanisms of its work.
COX-2 inhibitors (indomethacin, diclofenac, celecoxib) and alpha-blockers (terazosin, alfuzosin, silodosin) have shown some effect clinically at blocking the trigger of POIS and POIS-like syndromes in medical studies. But these drugs only work when they are taken prior to orgasm. Discussion about the POIS trigger can be found here (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.0).
The original post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.msg31887#msg31887) is focus on addressing a potential root cause (localized viral infections and immune suppression). The reason I'm focusing on potential root causes is that I think there is a path to long-term improvement (immune competence) such that the number of supplements/drug that a person takes could be reduced/eliminated over time. This is what happened in my case. I only take vitamin D3 now. I hope this helps. :)
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The reason I'm focusing on potential root causes is that I think there is a path to long-term improvement (immune competence) such that the number of supplements/drug that a person takes could be reduced/eliminated over time. This is what happened in my case. I only take vitamin D3 now.
Are you sure it's mainly about immune competence?
The reason I'm asking is that you did several "broad spectrum pathogen removal" things (IV Vitamin C, copper, ... possibly more I forgot) and at some point your immune system was strong enough to kill off the rest of the "pathogens" (obviously with help of the immune improvement things like D, zinc, AHCC etc).
What I mean is: Both things need to be done for effective treatment?
(See also the people who fixed POIS with antibiotics or fungal removal or whatever..)
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hi nanna1, i could say i also noticed correlation between POIS condition and pre-workout packs
I have never attached importance but after your post im looking for consistency of those mixes and the most powerful ingridients are citrulline malate 8g and 320mg of caffeine.
so, it was about 30-40% relief.
But, just wanna add some comment:
-My POIS has developed slowly, it took 3 days to revocer on the start 5 years ago, 7-10 day 2 years ago but now it never ends, just becoming stronger after powerful stimulation or eujaculation
how can you include that fact to your theory about CD8+ T cells expansion?
-i also have only cognitive symptoms but their power is really frightful, its so much brainfog and cognitive impairment all the time so i cant really contact people cause of that.
-i have unidentified rheuamothoid arhtritis but i havenot any markers of that except CRP so my hips and knees are a little bit inflamed all the time but it started 2 years before POIS
hello worldwide sufferers from Russia :)
What's ur CRP?
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What I mean is: Both things need to be done for effective treatment?
(See also the people who fixed POIS with antibiotics or fungal removal or whatever..)
Hi berlin,
You are correct that biocidals (antivirals, antibiotics, antifungals, probiotics, copper, vitamin C IV, etc...) are helpful in eliminating infections that may cause POIS symptoms. If the immune system is suppressed or compromised, removing infections directly through biocides is one of the quickest ways to help restore immune function. Even if the biocide is only partially effective at removing pathogens, that could be enough to help change the balance in favor of your immune system being able to defend itself and the body. I'm not sure if it is possible to regain immune competence without using biocidals since I personally used copper and vitamin C IV for that purpose. Thanks for making that point :)
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Я прочитал Ваши теории, и они весьма интересны. Приведу некоторые мысли, которые возникли при ознакомлении с Вашими теориями.
Вы говорите, что POIS в вегетативной нервной системе, а не в ЦНС. Я долгое время проводил опрос и изучал описания течения болезни. И пришел к выводу, что одним из симптомов POIS является гиперсексуальность. Об этом мало кто говорит прямо, так как свои ощущения нельзя сравнить с чужими. Но больные часто говорят, что хотят секса всегда, даже когда им совсем плохо. И даже хотят секса больше, когда им плохо. Но здоровый человек если ему от секса становится плохо - станет асексуалом или импотентом. А человек с POIS не становится, значит есть симптом гиперсексуальности. И этот симптом в голове, В ЦНС. А значит и причина POIS может быть в голове.
Но если Вы говорите про вегетативную нервную систему, то надо смотреть крестцовый и поясничный отдел спинного мозга, которые связаны с эрекцией и эякуляцией. И нервы от этих отделов к члену и промежности. Потому что и тут может быть причина гиперсексуальности.
Теперь немного статистики. Я как то считал примерно сколько людей больны POIS. За основу я брал число людей на форуме, умножал на 100, так как про форум могут знать мало кто, а кто то не хочет регистрироваться. И получалось , что больных POIS примерно 1 на 10 000 населения. Это очень примерно, но нам важен порядок числа. То есть это очень редкая болезнь! А значит можно смело откидывать все возможные причины, которые встречаются часто! Это очень упрощает поиск причины POIS.
И вот тут можно откинуть и все распространенные вирусы и инфекции, в том числе герпес. И даже если учесть локальное расположение герпеса, то мне кажется, что всё равно это будет намного чаще, чем 1 на 10 000. Это всего лишь мнение , а не утверждение ))
Я делал себе очень много исследований, и очень много анализов. В том числе МРТ головного мозга. Там выявлено 2 интересных нарушения. Субарахноидальное пространство расширено, что говорит об отеке ЦНС. И у меня часто болит голова, в том числе всегда при POIS. Ещё провисает диафрагма гипофиза, что я связываю как раз с неправильным регулированием стресса эякуляции и возбуждения. Поэтому я и говорю, что POIS в ЦНС расположен в области гипоталамуса, гипофиза и миндалины. И тот же герпес тогда может локализоваться там же, это для Вашей теории ))
Про ЦОГ-2 тоже интересно. Я купировал POIS больше 20 лет блокаторами ЦОГ (ацетилсалециловая кислота и кофеин). Но сейчас они уже почти не работают. Это я связываю с тем, что система воспаления как бы складывается из составляющих, Вы об отом много тут говорили. И при увеличении чего то одного , других нужно меньше для воспаления. К примеру, увеличение гистамина будет запускать воспаление и отек в ЦНС даже при меньших уровнях простагладинов с ЦОГ. Сейчас я купирую симптомы воспаления большим количеством мочегонных, я пью по 2,5 литра чая в день )) То есть, я хочу обратить внимание, что не обязательно сбита иммунная система, может быть сбита просто система воспаления. И даже небольшие естественные скачки иммунитета запускают излишнее воспаление.
Так же я перепробовал все витамины, микроэлементы, аминокислоты и многое другое в лечении. Я провел более 100 экспериментов по лечению )) Сейчас я постоянно принимаю B1 50 мг., B6 10 мг, Zn 20 мг., Mn 5 мг, витамин C 200 мг, а так же витамины A, E, B12 и иногда другое.
Кстати, D3 у меня вызывает обострение воспалений!
I have read your theories and they are quite interesting. I will cite some thoughts that arose when familiarizing myself with your theories.
You say that POIS is in the autonomic nervous system and not in the CNS. For a long time I conducted a survey and studied descriptions of the course of the disease. And I came to the conclusion that one of the symptoms of POIS is hypersexuality. Few people speak about this directly, since their feelings cannot be compared with others. But patients often say that they always want sex, even when they feel really bad. And they even want sex more when they feel bad. But a healthy person, if he gets sick from sex, will become asexual or impotent. A person with POIS does not become, which means there is a symptom of hypersexuality. And this symptom is in the head, in the central nervous system. This means that the reason for POIS may be in the head.
But if you are talking about the autonomic nervous system, then you need to look at the sacral and lumbar spinal cord, which are associated with erection and ejaculation. And the nerves from these sections to the penis and perineum. Because there may be a reason for hypersexuality.
Now some statistics. I somehow counted about how many people are sick with POIS. As a basis, I took the number of people on the forum, multiplied by 100, since few people can know about the forum, and someone does not want to register. And it turned out that POIS patients are about 1 per 10,000 population. This is very rough, but the order of the number is important to us. That is, it is a very rare disease! So you can safely discard all possible causes that are common! This makes it very easy to find the cause of POIS.
And here you can discard all common viruses and infections, including herpes. And even if we take into account the local location of herpes, it seems to me that it will still be much more often than 1 in 10,000. This is just an opinion, not a statement))
I've done myself a lot of research, and a lot of analyzes. Including MRI of the brain. There are 2 interesting violations revealed. The subarachnoid space is enlarged, which indicates edema of the central nervous system. And I often have a headache, including always with POIS. The pituitary diaphragm also sags, which I associate with the wrong regulation of the stress of ejaculation and arousal. That is why I say that POIS in the central nervous system is located in the hypothalamus, pituitary and amygdala. And the same herpes can then be localized in the same place, this is for your theory))
About TsOG-2 is also interesting. I have stopped POIS for over 20 years with COX blockers (acetylsalecylic acid and caffeine). But now they hardly work anymore. I associate this with the fact that the inflammation system is, as it were, made up of components, you talked about this a lot here. And with an increase in one thing, less others are needed for inflammation. For example, an increase in histamine will trigger inflammation and edema in the central nervous system even with lower levels of prostagladins with COX. Now I stop the symptoms of inflammation with a large amount of diuretics, I drink 2.5 liters of tea a day)) That is, I want to draw your attention to the fact that the immune system is not necessarily brought down, the inflammation system may simply be brought down. And even small natural surges in immunity trigger excessive inflammation.
I also tried all vitamins, trace elements, amino acids and much more in the treatment. I have conducted more than 100 treatment experiments)) Now I am constantly taking B1 50 mg, B6 10 mg, Zn 20 mg, Mn 5 mg, vitamin C 200 mg, as well as vitamins A, E, B12 and sometimes more.
By the way, D3 aggravates my inflammation!
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What it means if when I was ill I didn't have POIS?
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That is why I say that POIS in the central nervous system is located in the hypothalamus, pituitary and amygdala. And the same herpes can then be localized in the same place, this is for your theory))
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"Perrin hypothesized that blocked or congested lymphatic drainage pathways in ME/CFS and FM were causing toxins to build up in the central nervous system. That toxin buildup was disturbing the hypothalamus, which, in turn, was causing sympathetic nervous system problems."
"Noting the specificity some viruses have for certain tissues, he proposes that the viruses involved in ME/CFS may be attacking the sympathetic nerves in the upper chest and lumbar regions. Several herpes viruses are known to hang out in the nerve ganglia found just outside of the spine."
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Hello,
First of all, thank you very much Nanna for your amazing work here. I'm completely buying much of your theory, though I would still be interested in researching if there could be other causes of endorphin receptors dysfunction than pathogens.
I don't have a scientific background so I will probably not be able to make relevant comments but I'm pondering some remarks for another occasion. (I'm considering making a detailed topic somewhere on my own experience with Pois, observations, feedbacks, questions, tests, etc.)
As for now, I have several practical questions : 1) did more than one people here try the anti-transient immune suppression prepack with some success ?
2) Could somebody explain the role of N-acetyl L-tyrosine in the prepack ? I may have missed it.
3) Could those who tried the immune competence supplements and IV vitamin C make an update on their current situation, after some months have passed ?
Many thanks to all, this forum is incredibly informative and thought-provoking.
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...though I would still be interested in researching if there could be other causes of endorphin receptors dysfunction than pathogens....
There are other ways for endorphin receptors dysfunction or endorphin release dysfunction. I am more in favor of the endorphin release dysfunction hypothesis. Genetics could play a role. Some people report VDR taq (+/- or +/+) which could increase norepinephrine by decreasing the effectiveness of COMT. I suspect endorphin signaling is a problem because it is consistent with the data from POIS studies. But that does not mean there aren't other explainations.
(https://i.imgur.com/pU5NZop.png)
2) Could somebody explain the role of N-acetyl L-tyrosine in the prepack ? I may have missed it...
Caffeine can deplete dopamine levels which leads to jitters and irritability. N-acetyl L-tyrosine helps to prevent the this depletion in dopamine and helps reduces some side effects of dopamine depletion.
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Hi slan_ik,
Thanks for your question and comments. There are several POIS papers (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3127.msg31515#msg31515) and medical data submitted by POISers (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788) that could answer your questions.
But a healthy person, if he gets sick from sex, will become asexual or impotent. A person with POIS does not become, which means there is a symptom of hypersexuality. And this symptom is in the head, in the central nervous system. This means that the reason for POIS may be in the head.
Several POIS papers, surveys and case studies show that POISers are less sexual than the general population. In general, POIS papers report that many POISers avoid sex and orgasm.
"To avoid a post-ejaculatory reaction, 63 respondents (68.5%) avoided sexual intercourse frequently or always and 69 respondents (75.0%) avoided masturbation frequently or always. Negative impacts to romantic life was reported frequently or always in 74 respondents (80.4%)."
-Characterizing the Epidemiological Landscape of Post-Orgasmic Illness Syndrome. The Journal of Sexual Medicine, 17(1), S40. (https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(19)31604-2/pdf)
Now some statistics. I somehow counted about how many people are sick with POIS. As a basis, I took the number of people on the forum, multiplied by 100, since few people can know about the forum, and someone does not want to register. And it turned out that POIS patients are about 1 per 10,000 population. This is very rough, but the order of the number is important to us. That is, it is a very rare disease!
Usually a statistical result has a statistical error. The error is what gives meaning to the result. Neutropenia (low immune cell count) in POIS has been statistically validated with a statistical error defined by a 90% confidence interval.
(https://i.imgur.com/0V3N8dZ.png)
I do not include all the POISers that report low immune cell count because of potential publication bias. But there are many others who have also reported that they have neutropenia.
And here you can discard all common viruses and infections, including herpes. And even if we take into account the local location of herpes, it seems to me that it will still be much more often than 1 in 10,000. This is just an opinion, not a statement))
Having a rare disease is not rare. Most people have rare diseases, but the specific rare disease varies from person to person. Herpes viruses case many rare diseases. The full answer to your question can be found here (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg28521;topicseen#msg28521).
I've done myself a lot of research, and a lot of analyzes. Including MRI of the brain. There are 2 interesting violations revealed. The subarachnoid space is enlarged, which indicates edema of the central nervous system. And I often have a headache, including always with POIS. The pituitary diaphragm also sags, which I associate with the wrong regulation of the stress of ejaculation and arousal. That is why I say that POIS in the central nervous system is located in the hypothalamus, pituitary and amygdala. And the same herpes can then be localized in the same place, this is for your theory))
This data would be a very valuable contribution to the POIS community. If you have the rights to share it, would you post the medical data here (Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg23787#msg23787)).
For example, an increase in histamine will trigger inflammation and edema in the central nervous system even with lower levels of prostagladins with COX. Now I stop the symptoms of inflammation with a large amount of diuretics, I drink 2.5 liters of tea a day)) That is, I want to draw your attention to the fact that the immune system is not necessarily brought down, the inflammation system may simply be brought down. And even small natural surges in immunity trigger excessive inflammation.
Here is some medical data on histamine and inflammation parameters in POISers. In normal people, histamine levels decrease during sexual activity.
POIS medical data (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg24788#msg24788).
--3 of us show normal histamine levels (nanna1 tested histamine, itsmel and Muon tested histamine and N-methyl-histamine).
--1 of us show low histamine levels (Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995#msg24995), tested histamine and N-methyl-histamine)
Inflammation
--3 show normal C reactive protein (CRP) (kingfisher, certainlypois2 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24532#msg24532), BluesBrother (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg33828#msg33828), Simon66 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg24995#msg24995))
--1 reports high CRP (IronFeather)
--3 show normal ESR (Simon66, nanna1, certainlypois2)
--1 complement system activity (C3a, C4) normal (BluesBrother (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg32284#msg32284))
(https://i.imgur.com/UDA3DUO.png)
Is there a significance of histamine in the control of the human male sexual response? (A Becker, et al., 2011) (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1439-0272.2011.01222.x)
By the way, D3 aggravates my inflammation!
As far as I know, the vitamin receptors do not have any inflammatory pathways (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769). I don't think it is possible for vitamin D3 to cause inflammation in anyone. Vitamin D does stimulate increased immune activation to infections though. I hope this helps :)
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That is why I say that POIS in the central nervous system is located in the hypothalamus, pituitary and amygdala. And the same herpes can then be localized in the same place, this is for your theory))
=>
"Perrin hypothesized that blocked or congested lymphatic drainage pathways in ME/CFS and FM were causing toxins to build up in the central nervous system. That toxin buildup was disturbing the hypothalamus, which, in turn, was causing sympathetic nervous system problems."
"Noting the specificity some viruses have for certain tissues, he proposes that the viruses involved in ME/CFS may be attacking the sympathetic nerves in the upper chest and lumbar regions. Several herpes viruses are known to hang out in the nerve ganglia found just outside of the spine."
Просто для информации ))
Когда я делал себе МРТ головы, то с лимфатическим оттоком там все было нормально.
Поэтому тут мне ближе теории от nanna1, когда причиной рассматривается не лимфатическая система, а кровеносная.
Just for information))
When I did an MRI of my head, everything was normal there with lymphatic drainage.
Therefore, the theory from nanna1 is closer to me here, when the cause is not the lymphatic system, but the circulatory system.
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By the way, D3 aggravates my inflammation!
As far as I know, the vitamin receptors do not have any inflammatory pathways (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769). I don't think it is possible for vitamin D3 to cause inflammation in anyone. Vitamin D does stimulate increased immune activation to infections though. I hope this helps :)
Vit D deficiency may lead to overexpression of VDR in some individuals. If the immune system is already in an activated state additional vit D signaling may lead to further activation of the immune system with a result of feeling worse. This could be tested by taking immune stimulants. Slon_ik could also react to fillers in vit D supplements which is another story.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3188.msg36031#msg36031
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Hi slan_ik,
.......
I don't think it is possible for vitamin D3 to cause inflammation in anyone. Vitamin D does stimulate increased immune activation to infections though. I hope this helps :)
Отвечу в общем, так как трудно работать с автоматическим переводом ))
Спасибо за Ваше сообщение!
Конечно, статистически люди с POIS будут меньше заниматься сексом. Это понятно. Но я брал в основу описание больных , когда они рассказывали свои ощущения. И многие говорили о нестерпимом желании секса, особенно при плохих самочувствиях. Но наш мозг легко учится, и от POIS желание должно со временем пропасть, но этого не происходит! Вот это я и называю гиперсексуальностью. Не число секса, а его желание.
По результатам анализов мне надо время, чтобы их привести к нормальному виду для этого форума. И кроме своих результатов у меня есть также сводные таблицы по результатам анализов с русского форума. Возможно я и их постараюсь собрать. Пока скажу только одно. Мы пытались найти хотя бы что то, что по анализам было бы у всех людей с POIS. Делали много анализов по эндокринной системе. Самым близким нарушением было повышение утреннего кортизола по крови (80% больных). У остальных 20% были другие нарушения в надпочечниках. Поэтому можно сделать вывод, что эндокринные железы очень близко к первой причине POIS, но не являются этой причиной. Наиболее близки это гипоталамус и гипофиз.
Ваша информация по D3 интересна. И тут надо обратить внимание на философское понимание иммунитета )) Я не вижу иммунитет, как отдельную систему. Весь наш организм это большая система иммунитета. Есть куча клеток нашего организма, которая борется с кучей клеток не нашего организма. Это постоянная война всех против всех. И тут Вы очень точно сказали, что D3 стимулирует ответ именно на инфекции. Но проблема в том, что ответ этот почти всегда один - это воспаление, местное или общее, но воспаление. И вот если система воспаления, сбита, то даже от малейшего повышения ответа на инфекции (от D3) воспаление будет повышаться сильно. То есть первопричину понять невозможно без дополнительных исследований )) Это может быть и иммунный ответ на инфекции, и сбой системы воспаления ))
I will answer in general, since it is difficult to work with automatic translation))
Thank you for your message!
Of course, statistically, people with POIS will have less sex. This is clear. But I took as a basis the description of the patients when they told their feelings. And many talked about the intolerable desire for sex, especially when they were not feeling well. But our brain learns easily, and from POIS desire should disappear over time, but this does not happen! This is what I call hypersexuality. Not the number of sex, but its desire.
Based on the results of the analyzes, I need time to bring them back to normal for this forum. And besides my results, I also have summary tables based on the results of analyzes from the Russian forum. Perhaps I will try to collect them. For now, I will only say one thing. We tried to find at least something that, according to the analyzes, all people with POIS would have. We did a lot of tests on the endocrine system. The closest disorder was an increase in morning blood cortisol (80% of patients). The remaining 20% had other adrenal disorders. Therefore, it can be concluded that the endocrine glands are very close to the first cause of POIS, but are not this cause. The closest are the hypothalamus and pituitary gland.
Your information on D3 is interesting. And here we must pay attention to the philosophical understanding of immunity)) I do not see immunity as a separate system. Our entire body is a large immune system. There are a bunch of cells in our body that are fighting a bunch of cells not in our body. It is a constant war of all against all. And then you very accurately said that D3 stimulates the response to infections. But the problem is that this answer is almost always the same - it is inflammation, local or general, but inflammation. And if the inflammation system is knocked down, then even from the slightest increase in the response to infections (from D3), the inflammation will increase greatly. That is, it is impossible to understand the root cause without additional research)) It may be an immune response to infections, and a failure of the inflammation system))
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By the way, D3 aggravates my inflammation!
As far as I know, the vitamin receptors do not have any inflammatory pathways (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769). I don't think it is possible for vitamin D3 to cause inflammation in anyone. Vitamin D does stimulate increased immune activation to infections though. I hope this helps :)
Vit D deficiency may lead to overexpression of VDR in some individuals. If the immune system is already in an activated state additional vit D signaling may lead to further activation of the immune system with a result of feeling worse. This could be tested by taking immune stimulants. Slon_ik could also react to fillers in vit D supplements which is another story.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3188.msg36031#msg36031
I used to have problems taking even a 600iu supplement of D3 - it would trigger a mini-pois episode in me and horrible brain fog (tried drops, gummies, k2 +d3, etc).
After some research I found that not all d3 has the same derivation: 99% of products derive it from lanolin because it is much cheaper that way - I found some vegan D3 that is derived from Lichen (more and more brands have this available), and I?ve been taking 4000 iu per day (with k2 and a big spoonful of coconut oil) with 0 issues.
I know chemically the cholecalciferol is the same active ingredient in both, but my theory is that they are processed differently and there are some differences in the end product.
Long story short - normal D3 makes me very ill, but vegan D3 does not.
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Vitamin d with k2 gives me brain fog but normal vitamin d without vitamin k doesn't
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And many talked about the intolerable desire for sex, especially when they were not feeling well. But our brain learns easily, and from POIS desire should disappear over time, but this does not happen! This is what I call hypersexuality. Not the number of sex, but its desire.
Polls:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=228.0
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1166.0
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By the way, D3 aggravates my inflammation!
As far as I know, the vitamin receptors do not have any inflammatory pathways (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2683.msg23769#msg23769). I don't think it is possible for vitamin D3 to cause inflammation in anyone. Vitamin D does stimulate increased immune activation to infections though. I hope this helps :)
Vit D deficiency may lead to overexpression of VDR in some individuals. If the immune system is already in an activated state additional vit D signaling may lead to further activation of the immune system with a result of feeling worse. This could be tested by taking immune stimulants. Slon_ik could also react to fillers in vit D supplements which is another story.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3188.msg36031#msg36031
Да, думаю, что это так! По личным наблюдениям очень похоже, что не только витамин D, но все стимуляторы иммунитета, вызывают ухудшение сочувствия. К примеру, я пью ежедневно 200 мг витамина С, и не могу поднять дозу, так как мне тоже становится хуже, примерно так же, как и от витамина D.
Но вот причина и следствие опять не понятны ))
Возможно это аутоиммунное, и тогда плохо от всего, что поднимает иммунитет ещё больше.
Но возможно это сбой системы воспаления. И воспаление усиливается даже от слабых иммунных подъемов.
Yes, I think so! From personal observations, it is very likely that not only vitamin D, but all immune stimulants, cause a decrease in sympathy. For example, I drink 200 mg of vitamin C every day, and I cannot raise the dose, as I also get worse, about the same as from vitamin D.
But the cause and effect are again not clear))
Perhaps it is autoimmune, and then it is bad from everything that raises immunity even more.
But perhaps this is a failure of the inflammation system. And the inflammation is exacerbated even by weak immune rises.
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And many talked about the intolerable desire for sex, especially when they were not feeling well. But our brain learns easily, and from POIS desire should disappear over time, but this does not happen! This is what I call hypersexuality. Not the number of sex, but its desire.
Polls:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=228.0
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1166.0
По этим голосованиям четко видно, что больные POIS хотят секса больше, чем должны. И это странно. Если человеку от чего то плохо, то он бросает это делать. Но тут другая картина. Нам плохо, но мы всё равно делаем.
Интересно то, что это психологическая проблема, то есть она у нас в голове! Поэтому я и считаю, что основная причина POIS в голове, в ЦНС.
Возможно это сбой системы вознаграждения! И тогда мы получаем от эякуляции больше эндорфина, чем от всего другого. Но часто больные описывают ощущения, как наоборот слабые.
Тогда есть гипотеза, что это сбой системы регулирования стресса. Тогда тут психологическое желание возникает именно после эякуляции. То есть сбой стресса эякуляции вызывает не желание отдохнуть после секса, а наоборот желание продолжить. Но дополнительно к этому сбой регулирования стресса не дает организму возможность восстановиться. И от сюда все теории по эндокринологии и иммунитету.
И есть третий случай, когда сбой идет от нарушения тазовых нервов, от нарушения блуждающего нерва. Тогда ощущения гиперсексуальности вторичны, и просто фиксируются нашим сознанием. Тут же может быть вариант с аутоиммунным заболеванием, когда иммунитет атакует половую систему.
These polls clearly show that POIS patients want sex more than they should. And this is weird. If a person feels bad from something, then he quits doing it. But here is a different picture. We feel bad, but we do it anyway.
The interesting thing is that this is a psychological problem, that is, it is in our heads! Therefore, I believe that the main reason for POIS is in the head, in the central nervous system.
Perhaps this is a failure of the reward system! And then we get more endorphin from ejaculation than from anything else. But patients often describe the sensations as, on the contrary, weak.
Then there is a hypothesis that this is a failure of the stress regulation system. Then here the psychological desire arises precisely after ejaculation. That is, the failure of ejaculation stress does not cause a desire to rest after sex, but rather a desire to continue. But in addition to this, failure to regulate stress prevents the body from recovering. And from here all theories on endocrinology and immunity.
And there is a third case when the failure comes from a violation of the pelvic nerves, from a violation of the vagus nerve. Then the sensations of hypersexuality are secondary, and are simply fixed by our consciousness. There may also be an option with an autoimmune disease, when the immune system attacks the reproductive system.
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But perhaps this is a failure of the inflammation system. And the inflammation is exacerbated even by weak immune rises.
Immune activated state making you weak as in Th1 polarization (good against viral infection, not so good when it's not needed anymore and you keep getting stuck in that same state). Immune stimulants may skew it further towards Th1 activation. Steroids could have a positive effect.
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I. prevent transient immune suppression (prepack, 90min prior)
caffeine (150mg)
citrulline malate or citrulline nitrate (3g)
N-acetyl-tyrosine (200mg) (https://c4energy.com/products/c4-ultimate)
theanine (300mg)
Indomethacin is know to increase NK cell number and activity by inhibiting prostaglandin induced immune suppression. Indomethacin has antiviral, antibacterial and anticancer properties due to this increase in NK cells. indomethacin (with prepack) can be used as a quick immune stimulant to speed up results.
So if I understand correctly, COX-2 inhibition isn't necessary to include in a prepack as long as immune competence is being constantly established via pathogen removal, daily immune boosting stack and epithelial barrier repair.
Although, at the same time it seems like COX-2 inhibition by Indomethacin is greatly advantageous to establishing immune competence faster? But since I'm already taking 12 supplements a day, I'm a bit uncomfortable with adding NSAIDs as well (even though ibuprofen did help me a lot) as I don't want any stomach or liver problems.
Btw, what function does N-Acetyl-Tyrosine have? Does it inhibit Adenylyl Cyclase?
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Hi quikot,
Thanks for the good questions and comments!
So if I understand correctly, COX-2 inhibition isn't necessary to include in a prepack as long as immune competence is being constantly established via pathogen removal, daily immune boosting stack and epithelial barrier repair.
Although, at the same time it seems like COX-2 inhibition by Indomethacin is greatly advantageous to establishing immune competence faster? But since I'm already taking 12 supplements a day, I'm a bit uncomfortable with adding NSAIDs as well (even though ibuprofen did help me a lot) as I don't want any stomach or liver problems.
I think you are correct. But there were a few times during my early experimentation that I took indomethacin for an immune boost. I assume the immune boost only last for 4 hours, so I am not sure how much impact it had on the results. But the most effective time for that immune boost is before and during ejaculation.
Whenever you take indomethacin, you should always take the antioxidants selenium and vitamin C (i.e. selenmethionine - 200 micrograms and ascobate-vitC - 500mg). The toxicity of indomethacin comes from free radicals (ROS) and a slow depletion of glutathione over time (when taken daily over weeks). This is because the concentration of oral drugs is always highest in the stomach and liver. Antioxidants detoxify indomethacin:
About Vasoconstrictors:..
... The research indicates that selenomethionine detoxifies indomethacin (Ref1 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21532324), Ref2 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jfbc.12808), Ref3 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23456451), Ref4 (https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpgi.00125.2012))...
For example:
"Oral administration of indomethacin clearly increased the gastric ulcer area in the stomach, whereas selenium applied for 3 days significantly decreased the gastric ulcer area in a dose-dependent manner. In addition, selenium markedly reduced the increase of lipid peroxidation induced by indomethacin in the gastric mucosa and increased activities of radical scavenging enzymes such as superoxide dismutase, catalase, and glutathione peroxidase in a dose-dependent manner. These results reveal that selenium can heal indomethacin-induced gastric ulcers through elimination of the lipid peroxides and activation of radical scavenging enzymes."
-Curative effect of selenium against indomethacin-induced gastric ulcers in rats (2011) (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21532324/)
But indomethacin is an FDA approved drug that is one of the most effective and common treatments for coital(sex)-headaches, trigeminal hemicrania, cluster headaches, migraines and many other neuroimmune diseases. Since it is taken with the pre-pack only (not daily), I don't see any problems with safety even in the long term. However, people who have allergic reactions to medications should definitely share this with your doctor before trying any drug.
Btw, what function does N-Acetyl-Tyrosine have? Does it inhibit Adenylyl Cyclase?
N-Acetyl-Tyrosine (NAT) converts to dopamine, and dopamine prevents caffeine jitters. But too much dopamine can interfere with the immune stimulation of the stack. AlphaGPC works better than NAT, but AlphaGPC is more expensive. If you have the money, I would prefer AlphaGPC.
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Hi slon_ik,
Thanks for the interesting comments. ...We tried to find at least something that, according to the analyzes, all people with POIS would have. We did a lot of tests on the endocrine system. The closest disorder was an increase in morning blood cortisol (80% of patients). The remaining 20% had other adrenal disorders. Therefore, it can be concluded that the endocrine glands are very close to the first cause of POIS, but are not this cause. The closest are the hypothalamus and pituitary gland.
Everyone (including non-POIS) has an early morning increase in cortisol. So this is perfectly normal. When trying to determine if some result is related to POIS, I like to use a control group. You can use the "Neuroendocrine responses to arousal and orgasm (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2900.0)" thread as a source for your control group.
(https://i.imgur.com/FzLyQcN.png)
White circles: 24 hour sleep deprivation, Black circles: 24 hour normal sleep. Gray region (23:00 - 7:30): sleeping period
-Number and Function of Circulating Human Antigen Presenting Cells Regulated by Sleep (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17520784)
... And then you very accurately said that D3 stimulates the response to infections. But the problem is that this answer is almost always the same - it is inflammation, local or general, but inflammation. And if the inflammation system is knocked down, then even from the slightest increase in the response to infections (from D3), the inflammation will increase greatly. That is, it is impossible to understand the root cause without additional research)) It may be an immune response to infections, and a failure of the inflammation system))
Immune responses to infection are not always inflammatory. Fever, rhinitis, diarrhea, fatigue, etc... usually do not involve inflammation. Symptoms from the immune system can make you feel bad without causing inflammation. A small part of immune reactions involve inflammation, but most immune reactions are hormone/cytokine/neurotransmitter signaling that creates a hostile environment for infections, poisons and cancers. The good news is that there is already a lot of POIS research published in journals and POIS data hosted on this forum. If we do not ignore the research/data, then I think we will be encouraged by the wealth of knowledge that currently exist for POIS. With that said, new data and test can lead to new hypotheses that are useful. It would be a great benefit to the POIS community if you would be willing to share any medical test here: Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0)
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Very informative response nanna1, thank you. As per your recommendation, I've ordered Alpha GPC. And perhaps I could give Indomethacin a shot too, though here in the UK it's a prescription-only drug. I guess I could try to persuade my GP to prescribe it...
I'm seeing various improvements from this therapy and I'll post a detailed review eventually. I think the longer I am on this therapy, the more positive results I get. Thank you for sharing it!
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But perhaps this is a failure of the inflammation system. And the inflammation is exacerbated even by weak immune rises.
Immune activated state making you weak as in Th1 polarization (good against viral infection, not so good when it's not needed anymore and you keep getting stuck in that same state). Immune stimulants may skew it further towards Th1 activation. Steroids could have a positive effect.
Я много раз пытался принимать стероиды. Это были аналоги кортизола и некоторых его предшественников. Во всех случаях мне становилось хуже, иногда сразу, а иногда через несколько дней. Так же знаю других больных POIS, которым стероиды тоже не помогали. Поэтому я сделал вывод, что причина POIS точно не в эндокринной системе. А когда мы пытаемся компенсировать наши проблемы с помощью стероидов, то результаты будут непредсказуемыми, так как мы не попадаем точно в цель.
Проблема поиска причины POIS в иммунной системе в том, что иммунная система намного больше, чем мы о ней знаем, и имеет множество регуляторов ))
I have tried steroids many times. These were analogs of cortisol and some of its predecessors. In all cases, I got worse, sometimes immediately, and sometimes after a few days. I also know of other POIS patients who were not helped by steroids either. Therefore, I concluded that the cause of POIS is definitely not in the endocrine system. And when we try to compensate for our problems with steroids, the results will be unpredictable, since we don't hit the target.
The problem of finding the cause of POIS in the immune system is that the immune system is much more than we know about it, and has many regulators))
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So if I understand correctly, COX-2 inhibition isn't necessary to include in a prepack as long as immune competence is being constantly established via pathogen removal, daily immune boosting stack and epithelial barrier repair.
Although, at the same time it seems like COX-2 inhibition by Indomethacin is greatly advantageous to establishing immune competence faster? But since I'm already taking 12 supplements a day, I'm a bit uncomfortable with adding NSAIDs as well (even though ibuprofen did help me a lot) as I don't want any stomach or liver problems.
Btw, what function does N-Acetyl-Tyrosine have? Does it inhibit Adenylyl Cyclase?
Возможно вам будет полезна информация ))
Я принимаю ингибиторы ЦОГ-2 уже 25 лет. У меня во время POIS всегда болит голова. Так же у меня головные боли и в другое время. Я принимаю цитрамон, это русский препарат, который содержит аспирин и кофеин. За 25 лет никаких побочных эффектов не заметил ) Принимаю где то 1 - 2 раза в неделю. Но у меня понижена кислотность желудка, поэтому язва мне не грозит.
Но последние несколько лет мне ингибиторы ЦОГ-2 уже не помогают. Это значит, что понижая ЦОГ-2 мы лишь компенсируем другую проблему, но не уменьшаем истинную причину POIS.
Perhaps the information will be useful to you))
I have been taking COX-2 inhibitors for 25 years. I always have a headache during POIS. I also have headaches at other times. I am taking citramone, a Russian drug that contains aspirin and caffeine. For 25 years I have not noticed any side effects) I take it somewhere 1 - 2 times a week. But my stomach is acidic, so I don't have an ulcer.
But over the past few years, COX-2 inhibitors are no longer helping me. This means that by lowering COX-2, we only compensate for another problem, but do not reduce the true cause of POIS.
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Everyone (including non-POIS) has an early morning increase in cortisol. So this is perfectly normal. When trying to determine if some result is related to POIS, I like to use a control group. You can use the "Neuroendocrine responses to arousal and orgasm (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2900.0)" thread as a source for your control group.
...
It would be a great benefit to the POIS community if you would be willing to share any medical test here: Gather and Post Here Your Medical Tests Results (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.0)
В качестве контрольной группы у нас были здоровые люди ))
Когда я говорю про увеличение кортизола утром, то имею в виду, что увеличение было выше нормы для здоровых людей.
12 человек с POIS сдали анализы кортизола , и у 10 из них кортизол был выше, чем норма! Статистически это серьезный результат.
Кроме кортизола были и другие анализы, но там все было разное у всех.
Проблемы в том, что я пользуюсь автоматическим переводчиком, и название анализов может быть переведено некорректно. Поэтому я ещё и не выложил все результаты. А переводить вручную у меня сейчас нет времени, очень много работы ))
Попробую сейчас тут сделать автоматический перевод, может будет понятно ))
Всего сдавали анализы 17 человек с POIS, но многие сдали только некоторые анализы.
Про кортизол я уже сказал.
Список анализов, по которым у всех были разные результаты (норма, выше или ниже нормы):
лг, тестостерон, дегидротестостерон
ттг, т3, т4
актг, кортизол по суточной моче, альдостерон, ренин, 17-кетостероиды по суточной моче, ДГЭА
Норадреналин, Адреналин, Дофамин
пролактин, прогестерон, эстрадиол
PH, PO2, PCO2, K+, Na+, Cl-
Понятны ли названия?
Ещё следует отметить, что есть подозрение, что PH, PO2, PCO2 будут в сторону гипоксии, но у нас мало этих анализов (только 4 человека)
поэтому статистически это не подтверждено.
We had healthy people as a control group))
When I talk about the increase in cortisol in the morning, I mean that the increase was higher than normal for healthy people.
12 people with POIS had their cortisol tested, and 10 of them had higher than normal cortisol levels! Statistically, this is a serious result.
In addition to cortisol, there were other tests, but everything was different for everyone.
The problem is that I use an automatic translator, and the name of the tests may be translated incorrectly. Therefore, I have not yet posted all the results. And now I don't have time to translate manually, there is a lot of work))
Now I will try to make an automatic translation here, it may be clear))
In total, 17 people with POIS were tested, but many were only tested.
I've already mentioned cortisol.
List of tests for which everyone had different results (normal, above or below normal):
lh, testosterone, dehydrotestosterone
ttg, t3, t4
actg, daily urine cortisol, aldosterone, renin, 17-ketosteroids daily urine, DHEA
Norepinephrine, Adrenaline, Dopamine
prolactin, progesterone, estradiol
PH, PO2, PCO2, K +, Na +, Cl-
Are the names clear?
It should also be noted that there is a suspicion that PH, PO2, PCO2 will be in the direction of hypoxia, but we have few of these analyzes (only 4 people)
therefore, it is not statistically confirmed.
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I have the same as sun_ik. I can take vitamin C and vitamin D only in very small doses, because higher doses cause me symptoms as in POIS. But now it's getting better, perhaps because I take prepacks and a lot of anti-inflammatory and antiviral drugs, so my vitamin C and vitamin D tolerance has increased.
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...Do you now rule out the possibility of a glutamate-mediated triggering of POIS ? How would it fit in the theory ? I've done a (very) quick research on the web and glutamate / NMDAr activation seems rather to *inhibit* adenylyl cyclase, but it's really a bit too complicated for me.
Hi Prospero,
Great question! POIS treatment: Theory and supplement stack (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2502.0) focuses narrowly on the trigger of POIS symptoms. The therapy in the original post (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3151.0) focuses more generally on a potential cause of the disease that causes POIS. But the trigger of symptoms is the same in both cases.
Glutamate turns neurons on (excitation) so that they can receive signals from other neurotransmitters like acetylcholine, dopamine and adrenaline. GABA turns neurons off (sedation) so that those neurons become unresponsive to other neurotransmitters like acetylcholine, dopamine and adrenaline. Glutamate is required for any kind of arousal, including orgasm. It is not possible to completely inhibit NMDA and have an orgasm at the same time. Both adrenaline and glutamate are required to orgasm, and both noradrenaline (norepinephrine) and glutamate are required for ejaculation. So I don't really know how to distinguish between a glutaminergic triggered POIS and an adrenergic triggered POIS. They should happen together.
"...different neuropharmacological factors impact thresholds for seizures and sexual climax in similar ways, likely reflecting overall propensity for activation cascades to spread through neuronal networks: thresholds increase with elevated GABA receptor stimulation, but decrease with elevated glutamate receptor stimulation, dopamine agonists, and dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors" -What is orgasm? A model of sexual trance and climax via rhythmic entrainment (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5087698/)
This probably deserves some background information: Neurons have on and off states. When a neuron is on, neurotransmitters like catecholamines (dopamine, adrenaline, etc...) and acetylcholine can send signals by binding to their receptors. But when a neuron is turned off, the neuron becomes unresponsive to neurotransmitters even when those neurotransmitters bind to the receptor.
The on state of a neuron is controlled by the NMDA and other glutamate receptors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate_receptor#Types). When glutamate and glycine stimulate the NMDA receptor, then a neurotransmitter like dopamine can stimulate the D2-dopamine receptor (signaling sexual pleasure). Or a neurotransmitter like norepinephrine can stimulate the alpha1-adrenergic receptor (signaling ejaculation).
The off state of a neuron is controlled by the glycine and GABA receptors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GABA_receptor). When GABA stimulates the GABA receptors, then a neurotransmitter like dopamine cannot stimulate the D2-dopamine receptor and norepinephrine is prevented from stimulating the alpha1-adrenergic receptor. So GABA prevents the signals of sexual pleasure and ejaculation.
So this means that anytime norepinephrine is involved, glutamate is also involved.
NMDAr stimulates an increase in adenylyl cyclase activity (nMDA receptor activation increases cyclic AMP in area CA1 of the hippocampus via calcium/calmodulin stimulation of adenylyl cyclase (1993) (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7901336/)). But beta-alanine is a much stronger NMDAr inhibitor than theanine. I chose theanine (instead of beta-alanine) in the pre-pack because it is an immune stimulant that can also balance the jitter effects of caffeine.
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I have the same as sun_ik. I can take vitamin C and vitamin D only in very small doses, because higher doses cause me symptoms as in POIS. But now it's getting better, perhaps because I take prepacks and a lot of anti-inflammatory and antiviral drugs, so my vitamin C and vitamin D tolerance has increased.
Hi Monte,
That is awesome that you are able to increase your tolerance to vitamin C and D. I would like to point out that with the therapy described in this thread is supposed to stimulate an immune response to pathogens in your body. If you are successful at stimulating your immunity, this will likely cause symptoms at some point. When I did this therapy for myself, I tried to maximize the symptoms as much as possible by increasing the dose. Vitamin C is an antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, anti-histamine nutrient with no known oral toxicity. So I was able to use the symptoms as an indirect indicator of its immune boost and the attempt by my immune cells to remove pathogens.
My symptoms increased in the beginning, but these were not typical POIS symptoms. For example, I had a lot of face-muscle twitching on AHCC the first week, but this was s minor symptom that I sometimes experienced with POIS. I don't remember having an orgasm the first few weeks when I was trying AHCC (or I don't remember the symptoms). Eventually, I did experience more POIS like symptoms from taking AHCC, but it was never as bad as real POIS. I think that the path to symptom reduction will look a little different for each person. People who also take andrographis may not experience increased symptoms with AHCC. I read that andrographis speeds up the adaptive immunity, but initially I was not taking andrographis.
In my case, it was a detox reaction. At high concentration, copper is toxic to certain bacteria and virus. Good bacteria in the microbiome have mostly adjusted to be compatible with the nutrients and minerals in the human diet. But foreign (harmful) bacteria die quickly in the presence of copper. When these bacteria die they burst open and release toxins/debris. If the toxins reach a high enough concentration in the digestive tract, our immune system will try to remove the toxins from the body as fast as possible. Sometimes this means vomiting.
Drinking more water and/or food can dilute the copper and slow down how fast the bacteria die. But too much food could eliminate the die-off effect from copper. I preferred to just drinking water when I felt sick or like I might vomit. Eventually, I got to the point where I could take copper on an empty stomach and not feel anything. But, not everyone has to do what I did. Experiment with whatever method you feel comfortable with.
I found out early on that AHCC cause (short duration) random localized nerve pain and muscle twitches. Mega-dose-vitamin C cause rhinitis. High-dose melatonin caused itching. I interpreted these symptoms as the supplements activating different parts of my immune system. These symptoms were mind enough to tolerate and did not cause fatigue or cognitive issues. So I started trying to maximize the symptoms with different supplement combinations. As the (non-POIS) symptoms started to disappear, I increased the dose to restore maximal immune activation and symptoms. Sometimes I cycled off-on the supplements to restore and increase flu-like symptoms. The side-effects of melatonin cause me to stop taking it...
...These experiments occurred mostly outside of POIS. But I notice something weird around April/May 2019. When the vitamin C "wore off" (I could no longer produce rhinitis by increasing the dose), the rhinitis that I used to experience during POIS disappeared. I never experience rhinitis during POIS again.
The same effect happen with AHCC and the nerve-pain/muscle-twitch. Once increasing my AHCC dose could no longer produce nerve pain, the pains and muscle-twitch that I used to experience during POIS also disappeared.
The same effect happened with copper. Copper initially caused diarrhea and stomach pain in the area where I would normally get IBS, with a little nausea. But after a while of cycling copper on-and-off and gradually taking it more often throughout the day, the stomach problems caused by copper went away. And the IBS from POIS also went away at the same time.
These effects were permanent (or at least still effective) and continue to last several months after I no longer take these supplements. The time frame for remission of POIS symptoms varied for each combo of supplements and symptoms. For example, it took about 2 month for AHCC to cause symptom remission, but during that time the (non-POIS) symptoms increased before they decreased. For copper, it took a little over two weeks, but I started experiencing a reduction in stomach problems after 1 week. The immune therapy reflects more so the lessons learned rather than a exact description of all the things that I experimented with. I hope that clarifies things a bit :)
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Huge Wikipedia article about Copper in health.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_in_health
"Studies have shown that elevated concentrations of copper can be found near the sites of infection.
Other studies have shown that copper deficiency in the host can be linked to increased susceptibility to infection (and improved immune response when the host is provided with a copper supplement)."
http://blog.eoscu.com/blog/copper-and-our-innate-immune-system
"The immune system requires copper to perform several functions, of which little is known about the direct mechanism of action. [...] Some of the recent research showed that interleukin 2 is reduced in copper deficiency and is likely the mechanism by which T cell proliferation is reduced. These results were extended to show that even in marginal deficiency, when common indexes of copper are not affected by the diet, the proliferative response and interleukin concentrations are reduced. The number of neutrophils in human peripheral blood is reduced in cases of severe copper deficiency. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9587153/
Some old forum links that we could go through:
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.19040
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.18800
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.17480 <- something about elevated levels though (not deficiency..)
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.18540
There used to be a ton of discussion about copper.
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I've been feeling very good for a long time lately, the pre-orgasm prepacks have worked beautifully. But yesterday I ate 2 sour mandarins. This was followed by symptoms such as tetany (jumping muscles, body pain) and POIS (brain fog, mood drop, anxiety). It was not so bad for a long time. I had to take prepack and calcium several times (50% improvement). Only today taking a multivitamin helped so much that now (after 30 hours) I'm 98% ok. Do you think that vitamin C in mandarins caused these symptoms? I had long suspected citrus as a symptom trigger as with POIS, but now I'm pretty sure. In addition to mandarins, I also had tofu in a sprout salad, but I suspect mandarins are the cause.
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I suspect mandarins are the cause.
Citrus fruits can trigger mast cell mediator release IIRC.
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Do you think that vitamin C in mandarins caused these symptoms?
Hi Monte, mandarins don't contain enough vitamin C to cause any near-term immune stimulation. The highest vitamin C foods (by weight) are:
guavas > bell peppers > kiwi > broccoli > papaya > snow peas > oranges > green leaf vegetables (spinach, kale).
If mandarins are causing problems, it is probably either the citric acid or the malic acid. I haven't had that reaction from mandarins, but lemons (high citric acid) used to give me a sore throat.
[...] Some of the recent research showed that interleukin 2 is reduced in copper deficiency and is likely the mechanism by which T cell proliferation is reduced. These results were extended to show that even in marginal deficiency, when common indexes of copper are not affected by the diet, the proliferative response and interleukin concentrations are reduced. The number of neutrophils in human peripheral blood is reduced in cases of severe copper deficiency. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9587153/
Good finds berlin1984!
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There used to be a ton of discussion about copper.
I did a hair mineral test and I'm now very confused about taking copper or not.
Maybe I should not have done the test while supplementing with copper though. ::)
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2684.msg37430#msg37430
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Hi nanna1,
I saw a doctor today who already knew POIS (which is quite rare for a non-specialist), and at the end of the meeting I succinctly summarized your theory. He thought it was complete bullshit and that you were a charlatan, sorry Nanna ^^ He was also very skeptical about the benefits of IV Vitamin C generally speaking, and seems to believe quite strongly in the thesis of a temporary dysautonomia (or this kind of neurological disorder). I'm French and the neurological cause is favored by the French researchers who have studied POIS, so this is not really surprising.
Though I don't make a big deal about his strong reject of your hypotheses (I probably explained it badly and, be that as it may, it was too quick for him to really think about it), he pointed out the efficacy of benzodiazepines, neuroleptics, SSRIs, beta-blockers, etc., at least in a reasonable number of cases, as a sign that the cause of the problem was neurological. I thought that it was indeed a kind of blind spot of what I understand about your theory.
What would be the link between the transient immune deficiency (and the possible viral infection leading to an impaired endorphin signalling), and the success of "neurological" treatments ? I can see that the serotonin depletion arguably provoked by IDO activation may provoke troubles that might be countered by serotonergics/SSRIs, but apart from that it's quite obscure to me. (Maybe the treatments are calming down some of the "opioid withdrawal-like" symptoms ?)
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I saw a doctor today who already knew POIS (which is quite rare for a non-specialist)
Could you ask your doctor if we can add him to this list?
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2575.0
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I'll see but basically for POIS he will send me to prof. Amarenco of Hospital Tenon, who studies it and is already in the list. (Before that he wants to make some check-ups because he believes, as I do, that I have a prostatitis, and it would be better to know exactly what is caused by POIS and what is caused by prostatitis.)
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Before that he wants to make some check-ups because he believes, as I do, that I have a prostatitis.
Show him this paper: https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.jri.2013.02.004
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Well, I'm sorry but I can't open it.
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What about these? Same paper different URL.
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.jri.2013.02.004
https://sci-hub.do/10.1016/j.jri.2013.02.004
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The last one is the good one. Interesting, thank you.
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The last one is the good one. Interesting, thank you.
Patients with chronic prostatitis/chronic pelvic pain syndrome show T helper type 1 (Th1) and Th17 self-reactive immune responses specific to prostate and seminal antigens and diminished semen quality (https://bjui-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/bju.15117)
We need to do testing in semen.
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Hello Nanna1,
I have a question but maybe it is a foolish one...
I read on google that Covid mRNA vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer) can stimulate innate immunity. I am ignorant about the other types of Covid vaccines like AstraZeneca if they boost the innate immune system or not.
https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/five-things-you-need-know-about-mrna-vaccines.html
"Classical vaccine molecules usually only work with the acquired immune system and the innate immune system is activated by another ingredient, called an adjuvant. Interestingly, mRNA in vaccines could also trigger the innate immune system, providing an extra layer of defence without the need to add adjuvants."
One paper suggested SARS CoV-2 suppresses the innate immune response:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074761320303332
Assuming the FDA clears mRNA vaccines in 2021 - do you think getting vaccinated by such a vaccine can increase the innate immunity of POISers ( at least those who think they have an innate immunity deficiency) so that there is a theoretical possibility for improving the transient immune deficiency condition during ejaculation?
I am completely ignorant if this mRNA vaccine-induced increase in innate immunity will help for other types of viruses like DNA viruses. As far as I could understand, innate immunity is not antigen-specific.
It will be great to hear your comments. Thanks!
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I read on google that Covid mRNA vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer) can stimulate innate immunity...
...One paper suggested SARS CoV-2 suppresses the innate immune response:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074761320303332
...Assuming the FDA clears mRNA vaccines in 2021 - do you think getting vaccinated by such a vaccine can increase the innate immunity of POISers ( at least those who think they have an innate immunity deficiency) so that there is a theoretical possibility for improving the transient immune deficiency condition during ejaculation?...
...As far as I could understand, innate immunity is not antigen-specific.
Hi kingfisher,
Good question! I am not sure if it will or won't work for stimulating general innate immunity. But the CEO of Pfizer thinks that it does, which is encouraging. I am also not sure whether RNA virus vaccines can have any effect on DNA viruses. Most vaccines do not give cross-immunity (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987720317874) to other pathogens. I took the influenza vaccine almost every year but it didn't seem to help my POIS (or maybe the effect was small). But anything is possible.
Thanks for sharing the paper on COVID immune suppression. That's a really good paper. Yes COVID-19 causes a suppression of innate (NK) and adaptive (T) cells that last even after the adaptive (B cell) immunity has removed the virus. Some scientist call this Post-acute COVID-19 Syndrome (https://www.idsociety.org/covid-19-real-time-learning-network/disease-manifestations--complications/post-covid-syndrome/) or post-COVID syndrome (https://www.houstonmethodist.org/blog/articles/2020/nov/post-covid-syndrome-what-should-you-do-if-you-have-lingering-covid-19-symptoms/) for short. I think that this is the same thing that happens with POIS except that POIS is caused by a different virus.
Some patients, that "recover" from COVID-19, experience POIS-like symptoms. It may give some insights into what is happening with POIS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu_Gs7N4lGk
I think that once COVID-19 disables the NK, T and dendritic cells, the immune system looses the ability to control prior latent infections (other latent viruses and bacteria). And those latent infections can then reactivate to cause post-COVID symptoms. This is my guess. But in any case, I think we can learn a lot about POIS from the research on post-COVID syndrome.
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Nanna, trying your protocol and the immuno complex is hitting hard only after two days with symptoms of headache, brain fog, and insomnia. Should I layoff until symptoms subside and restart then?
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Nanna, trying your protocol and the immuno complex is hitting hard only after two days with symptoms of headache, brain fog, and insomnia. Should I layoff until symptoms subside and restart then?
Sure, if the symptoms become unbearable, then cycling (stop/restart) the Immuno Complex is an option. Unfortunately, most immune therapy's (i.e. IL-2 therapy) cause symptoms just from having a more active immune system. The symptoms are often a result of the immune cells correcting some problem (infection, cancer, toxin/allergen detox, wound repair, etc...). It's hard to know what problem is being addressed, but I would stay within personal tolerance/comfort limits.
In my opinion insomnia is a problem. You want to get high quality sleep because during sleep is when your immune system is boosted the most. I'm not sure which of your symptoms occurred first, but insomnia can cause headaches and brain fog. I personally did not experience insomnia with this supplement. I did experience brief headaches some times, but no sleep problems or brain fog.
The first thing I can think of that could cause this could be related to appetite and food intake. If the immune stimulation is suppressing your appetite, you may not be eating enough protein later in the day to stay asleep. The brain consumes protein (amino acids) and carbs when you sleep. The amino acid, tryptophan, is used make serotonin and melatonin. The amino acid, glutamine, is used to make GABA. The carb, glucose, is used for energy and to make adenosine. Your brain needs enough melatonin, GABA, adenosine to remain asleep. If you run low on these neurotransmitters, you will wake up. If I wake up in the middle of the night, I just eat a non-dairy source of protein and avoid blue light (smart phones, computer screens). That usually helps me go back to sleep.
The second thing that I think might cause those brain symptoms is that there is some thing in the diet (or being taken) after 6pm that causes wakefulness. Often times supplements and medications that affect dopamine or adrenaline levels are recommended to be taken earlier in the day (before 5pm) so that they don't suppress melatonin and GABA levels later in the day.
Also, if I don't feel hydrated, I will have a hard time falling asleep. So drinking water throughout the day helps me sleep better at night. Warning: drinking water while taking Immuno Complex could initially lead to more runny nose or watery eyes. But in my experience it only lasted a week. I hope this helps.
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This is a tremendous help and thank you for the thorough explanation and troubleshooting!!!
All three symptoms are tied to my POIS (including insomnia) so I’m realistically optimistic that the immune system is staging a fight against some intruder. Unfortunately, for the last 30 years I’ve suffered mild insomnia.
About two month ago I was diagnosed with low vitamin D (high 20’s range) and began taking a D3 supplement. Considering where I was born/raised along with outdoor exposure in general this may have been chronically low. At first low doses of the vitamin created an alert and wakeful state up to 24 hours after ingesting but over weeks my body is no longer sensitive in that regard and believe it or not it about faced and I sleep the best I ever have, no exaggeration (it’s this success that has spurred me to try your stacks again... tried originally in 2014). I’ve been able to increase the dose to 4000 IU with vitamin K2 now and continue to sleep and feel better. However, it’s not until trying immuno complex that sleep has regressed. It’s been 48 hour since cycling off and the insomnia and cognitive symptoms had disappeared after 18 hours from last dose.
Food sensitivity issues have been the only consistent problems along side POIS and rightful or wrongfully I associate the two. Gluten and dairy being the biggest issues. My diet is interesting to put it mildly and the night of insomnia it may have added fuel to the fire, so to speak. Diet is typically ‘low inflammatory’ like paleo and carb consumption, especially starches, is often low. I will try the immuno complex again and monitor the diet for adequate carbs, protein, and hydration.
Great thanks again Nanna!
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Hi nanna1,
I posted in this thread (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2042.msg37553#msg37553) the results of my two experiences with the opioid Tramadol, which I took immediately after O. Short story: I had no POIS symptom the first time, and the second time I got a serotonin syndrome in the following hours but not the usual POIS symptoms.
I wonder if, in your opinion, there could be a link with Jiang, Yin & al.'s thesis regarding mu-opioid receptors, and with your own theory.
Of course there may be many possible explanations for the success of Tramadol.
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When i do a lot of ejaculation in a short period, i get pain on my neck, close to the side. It is not sore throat because when i swallow it doesn't hurt. It only hurts when i touch my neck. The pain last a few days. I have always suspected that is my lymph node hurting.
If i use antihistamine and nsaid together it takes much fewer ejaculation to get the same pain. This has always swayed me towards Nanna's theory. I think he said the body releases all those inflammatory chemicals during orgasm to fight a dormant infection that is trying to spread.
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Hey Nanna, just wanted to share that I’m beginning to feel really good - perhaps the best I’ve felt in 10 years. I also feel like this treatment is addressing the root cause and not just the symptoms. It’s been 2.5 months on your treatment. Thanks!
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Limejuice, congratulations!
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Thank you Demo!
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Hey Nanna, just wanted to share that I’m beginning to feel really good - perhaps the best I’ve felt in 10 years. I also feel like this treatment is addressing the root cause and not just the symptoms. It’s been 2.5 months on your treatment. Thanks!
are you doing high IV vit c too.
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No, I’m taking easily administered things like immuno complex (that has a reduced vitamin C dose), copper, and vitamin D 4000 IU (that’s in addition to the treatment). I’ve ordered beta-glucan (a gluten free version for my needs). The IV vitamin C would probably help speed along recovery but the logistics won’t work.
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How many immuno complex bottles have you gone through? I went through three and did see big improvements then I tried an AHCC supplement from other brand and it didn't have the same effects. I haven't bought any since the summer now as I got distracted with other triggers and other treatments, and its also a pain to buy them as I could only get from america so I was getting charged customs and they don't last more than ten days either.
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nanna, out of all the meds/supplements you have posted, which one is the strongest booster of IL-2? Secondly if you see people benefit significantly from your stacks and/or suggestions then you may drop a link in the comment section of the thread below so I can implement them in the list.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3551.0
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Similarly I went through 2 or 3 bottles before seeing significant improvements, along with the other supplements. As Nanna recommends I'll try to continue through 6 months and evaluate on the way.
The immuno complex is very expensive as each bottle costs $30 and lasts for 5 days (30 capsules per bottle, 2 capsules per serving, 3 servings per day). That doesn't include shipping and customs costs. Easily $100/month just for that supplement. Too bad the other AHCC isn't working for you.
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Hm, it looks like I was too impatient with the AHCC treatment.
Maybe the prices will drop again "after covid".
So AHCC also needs to be from "Quality of Life" brand?
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Hi nanna1,
I posted in this thread (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2042.msg37553#msg37553) the results of my two experiences with the opioid Tramadol, which I took immediately after O. Short story: I had no POIS symptom the first time, and the second time I got a serotonin syndrome in the following hours but not the usual POIS symptoms.
I wonder if, in your opinion, there could be a link with Jiang, Yin & al.'s thesis regarding mu-opioid receptors, and with your own theory.
Of course there may be many possible explanations for the success of Tramadol.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3551.msg38184#msg38184
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Nanna, trying your protocol and the immuno complex is hitting hard only after two days with symptoms of headache, brain fog, and insomnia. Should I layoff until symptoms subside and restart then?
Hey Nanna, just wanted to share that I’m beginning to feel really good - perhaps the best I’ve felt in 10 years. I also feel like this treatment is addressing the root cause and not just the symptoms. It’s been 2.5 months on your treatment. Thanks!
Similarly I went through 2 or 3 bottles before seeing significant improvements, along with the other supplements. As Nanna recommends I'll try to continue through 6 months and evaluate on the way.
Great to hear. May I ask how long you got bad feelings from taking it? When did headache etc stop?
Did you ever notice this kind of pattern from other supplements?
(I sometimes feel bad in morning from taking supplements, especially when taking them in late in evening and I'm now wondering if this is a similar effect that you get, something is killed off but can't get flushed out)
Same question (and congrats) to Iwillbeatthis :)
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He was also very skeptical about the benefits of IV Vitamin C generally speaking,
I liked it. I felt it killed off something in my body. But I stopped after 3 times because of money and logistics..
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=vitamin+c+as+antiviral
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I saw improvements straight away with the immuno complex, I remember when I first tried I had some itchiness and rashes in groin but it didn't really make me feel ill. The copper gluconate on the other hand did make me feel bad like bad brain fog and nauseous however I did see improvements as time went on and I was less reactive to it. I remember on the immuno complex I did feel nauseous during POIS. I need to try the therapy again because I feel like all the progress made has been reset. I never did iv vitamin c also.
Nanna, trying your protocol and the immuno complex is hitting hard only after two days with symptoms of headache, brain fog, and insomnia. Should I layoff until symptoms subside and restart then?
Hey Nanna, just wanted to share that I’m beginning to feel really good - perhaps the best I’ve felt in 10 years. I also feel like this treatment is addressing the root cause and not just the symptoms. It’s been 2.5 months on your treatment. Thanks!
Similarly I went through 2 or 3 bottles before seeing significant improvements, along with the other supplements. As Nanna recommends I'll try to continue through 6 months and evaluate on the way.
Great to hear. May I ask how long you got bad feelings from taking it? When did headache etc stop?
Did you ever notice this kind of pattern from other supplements?
(I sometimes feel bad in morning from taking supplements, especially when taking them in late in evening and I'm now wondering if this is a similar effect that you get, something is killed off but can't get flushed out)
Same question (and congrats) to Iwillbeatthis :)
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I believe this theory to be true for me also...during a cold my POIS is diminished and immune stimulating nutrients like vitamin C / copper / zinc make me fatigued. Plus I can link the start of my POIS to a time of immense psychological stress that probably manifested a viral infection.
I will try the protocol, thank you for all your input!
I got to be honest that I am somewhat skeptical about AHCC. It is a patented product and all studies seem to be financed by the company producing it. There seem to be other immunstimulating natural compounds out there - is there a specific reason to choose AHCC?
Other immunstimulating compounds I came across in my research:
Echinacea
L-Theanine
Astragalus
Cats's Claw
Neem Oil
Chitosan
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Hi nanna1,
I posted in this thread (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2042.msg37553#msg37553) the results of my two experiences with the opioid Tramadol, which I took immediately after O. Short story: I had no POIS symptom the first time, and the second time I got a serotonin syndrome in the following hours but not the usual POIS symptoms.
I wonder if, in your opinion, there could be a link with Jiang, Yin & al.'s thesis regarding mu-opioid receptors, and with your own theory.
Of course there may be many possible explanations for the success of Tramadol.
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3551.msg38184#msg38184
Codeine has the same positive effect as Tramadol for me. Two cheers for the Chinese Doctors Hypothesis... or for nanna1's, as far as I know.
Update : I tried to take Codeine (+Paracetamol) rather than Tramadol, immediately after O. I had many anxiety symptoms during the first hour, for some reason (psychological or else), then they vanished. And... absolutely no POIS symptoms. So, it seems quite sure now that my success with Tramadol was not caused by its SNRI properties.
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Hello guys, some feedback after getting 1st shot of Sputnik V vaccine yesterday in Moscow, Russia: I had chills and mild fever overnight which was alleviated with paracetamol, now some residual fatigue left, doctors warned that it may last a couple of days. They also told that the more acute the body reaction is - the more antibodies are subsequently produced. Second vaccine shot must be done in three weeks.
But what?s curious in relation to POIS and has already been pointed out before by other forum members: prior to vaccination I was still in the middle of POIS cycle (2-3 days after last O, normally lasts 7+ days for me) and after getting the vaccine and feeling first side effects I have simultaneously felt POIS symptoms to diminish (muscle pains and tension decreasing, brain fog subsiding except for the fever effect). So another case confirming that while being ill and having our immune systems boosted helps get rid of POIS. It goes contrary with Waldinger?s auto-immune theory as amplification of immune reaction obviously helps us battling POIS, rather than as it was assumed by Professor that immune system attacks our own body.
Assuming this being not just mere coincidence of our conditions improving following immune system boost it poses a question: is POIS a dormant infection or virus that gets activated following O that normally doesn?t trigger activation of our immune systems?
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I started Sulforaphane (broccoli sprout powder) two days ago and I am seeing massive improvements from it in terms of inflammation and autistic symptoms, I got some pains and a few rashes as if its killing some infection/pathogen in my body. I feel really good in my head from it.
This supplement is incredibly unique and powerful, it turns on the nrf2 gene which combats oxidative stress and unlike most antioxidant supplements there is actually a lot of scientific studies to back up the benefits of Sulforaphane.
PS: If you know the doctor; Rhonda Patrick from the Joe Rogan podcasts this is the supplement she is always banging on about.
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PS: If you know the doctor; Rhonda Patrick from the Joe Rogan podcasts this is the supplement she is always banging on about.
You can find two of her papers about vit D in the paper thread.
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I started Sulforaphane (broccoli sprout powder) two days ago and I am seeing massive improvements from it in terms of inflammation and autistic symptoms, I got some pains and a few rashes as if its killing some infection/pathogen in my body. I feel really good in my head from it.
This supplement is incredibly unique and powerful, it turns on the nrf2 gene which combats oxidative stress and unlike most antioxidant supplements there is actually a lot of scientific studies to back up the benefits of Sulforaphane.
I'm homozygous for the sod2 rs4880 gene, (super oxide).
When I had this chronic infection from 2018-2019, I would wake up feeling like death in the mornings, the worst brain fog, autistic symptoms, feeling brain dead and l arginine cleared it so that indicates it was some type of nitric oxide/oxidative stress disorder. I still have this going on sometimes outside of POIS but much less severe.
I've tried lots of things to combat oxidative stress: NAC, liposomal glutathione, exercise, agmatine sulfate, l arginine and in the end most weren't very helpful.
However Sulforaphane doesn't compare to any of these things above and it is a game changer for me so far.
Congrats. I noted it on my list of stuff to try. Please update us in a few days/weeks if there is more good changes and also if there is some bad changes.
What's your dosage?
I see it is mentioned on this CFS forum too : https://forums.phoenixrising.me/search/?q=sulforaphane&o=date
EDIT: Haven't researched in detail, but this sounds like it's a herbal antibiotic: https://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/histamine-intolerance-understanding-the-science.4019/#post-15924
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Congrats. I noted it on my list of stuff to try. Please update us in a few days/weeks if there is more good changes and also if there is some bad changes.
What's your dosage?
I see it is mentioned on this CFS forum too : https://forums.phoenixrising.me/search/?q=sulforaphane&o=date
EDIT: Haven't researched in detail, but this sounds like it's a herbal antibiotic: https://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/histamine-intolerance-understanding-the-science.4019/#post-15924
I'm taking these cheap 1000mcg capsules twice to three times a day which are supposedly 0.4% sulforaphane
https://ebay.us/xXY6Ly
However Dr Rhonda Patrick said studies found that most supplements on the market contained no or very little sulforaphane as it's a very unstable substance. One of the ones which was found to have good amounts of sulforaphane and used in studies was Prostaphane - https://ebay.us/1tIRud, however this is much more expensive than the one I bought. I might try it to see if theres any difference.
I wasn't aware of any bad effects until I saw the link you posted, so maybe I should be more careful. It's strange Dr Rhonda Patrick didn't mention any of these...
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Congrats. I noted it on my list of stuff to try. Please update us in a few days/weeks if there is more good changes and also if there is some bad changes.
What's your dosage?
I see it is mentioned on this CFS forum too : https://forums.phoenixrising.me/search/?q=sulforaphane&o=date
EDIT: Haven't researched in detail, but this sounds like it's a herbal antibiotic: https://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/histamine-intolerance-understanding-the-science.4019/#post-15924
I'm taking these cheap 1000mcg capsules twice to three times a day which are supposedly 0.4% sulforaphane
https://ebay.us/xXY6Ly
However Dr Rhonda Patrick said studies found that most supplements on the market contained no or very little sulforaphane as it's a very unstable substance. One of the ones which was found to have good amounts of sulforaphane and used in studies was Prostaphane - https://ebay.us/1tIRud, however this is much more expensive than the one I bought. I might try it to see if theres any difference.
I wasn't aware of any bad effects until I saw the link you posted, so maybe I should be more careful. It's strange Dr Rhonda Patrick didn't mention any of these...
Any affects on sleep? Mood? Make you calm or give you energy?
I'm lately looking into antiinflammatories as an addition to diet. I noticed 400mg-600mg Ibuprofen helps extremely well if I eat something that I'm "allergic" to, and this helps me sleep, but as we know too much can mess up your stomach (although some strange research of it possibly extending life). Also heart attack/stroke risk.
So I came across sulforaphane lately and ordered some. Supposed to be good for body and brain inflammation with some good research into it helping inflammation related depression. I'll let y'all know how my trial turns out.
BTW ordered a bottle that has 10 mg or 10,000 mcg sulfurophane.
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Any affects on sleep? Mood? Make you calm or give you energy?
[
Haven't noticed any effects on sleep, but it clears brain fog and makes me feel good, yeah at first was mild euphoria and boost in energy but now it just makes me feel calm and good, improves autistic symptoms. I don't have chronic fatigue though. I started adding wasabi now to activate the sulfurophane as explained in the article bellow. What percentage of sulforaphane does your supplement say it has? That would be ten times more than the amount in my supplement if its around 0.4% sulforaphane.
"Do you need expensive broccoli supplements?
There are numerous cheap broccoli supplements and some moderately priced ones.
We know from the research that supplements generally are not reliable, because they often do not contain what is on the label. This matters more with some products than others. With broccoli products the big question is whether they really contain active myrosinase. This is an enzyme that you need to make Sulforaphane when you eat broccoli.
Several years ago, when I started with Sulforaphane, I bought large tubs of Australian broccoli powder and one pack of Daikon radish powder. Daikon radishes are rich in myrosinase and it is relative stable, so it can survive processing. My idea was to start with just the broccoli powder and then, if not effective, add some Daikon radish powder for the extra myrosinase. In the end I did not need to even open the Daikon radish powder. A small scoop of this broccoli powder produced a profound effect, euphoria after minutes and then much more “speech”. Back then “speech” was more like babbling single words – but it was some kind of speech at least.
Many people report broccoli powder improved speech, even parents of young Aspies report it.
Some people found the effect on mood to be remarkable.
Long term users report that over time they have to increase the dose to maintain the effect.
It is important to note that for some people the benefit may not be from Sulforaphane, but rather from indole-3-carbinol (I3C).
Spice up Broccoli with Wasabi?
In the original research from decades ago, the Johns Hopkins researchers combined Daikon radish sprouts with broccoli sprouts, the Daikon radish sprouts where there to provide myrosinase. The product had to kept deep frozen.
Daikon radish is widely available and is a good source of myrosinase.
I was re-reading old research and noted one researcher advocating putting Wasabi on your broccoli – the spicier the better apparently. Wasabi is Japanese horseradish and is widely available. If it comes on a large bottle is likely fake wasabi - yes like they fake saffron, they fake wasabi.
Is it crazy to add wasabi to your broccoli capsules?
Look at what is in the expensive Avmacol supplement that they only sell in North America.
In the research they found that adding just 0.25% Daikon to frozen broccoli “brought it back to life” and sulforaphane was found in the person eating it.
If you are using gelatine capsules with broccoli powder you can open them and, using a pointed knife, add a small amount of wasabi, re-seal and then swallow. There is no taste or smell of wasabi.
It is bit fiddly to do this, but you soon master doing it."
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It seems I may have been duped into thinking it was 10000 mcg sulforaphane. This is what I ordered arriving soon:
https://www.amazon.com/Sulforaphane-Supplement-000mcg-Antioxidant-Optimization/dp/B08B5LFVJW/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=sulforaphane&qid=1610882233&sr=8-6
Broccoli sprout powder -1000mg and broccoli sprout extract - 10000mcg standardized to 12% sulforaphane. So it may just be 1.2 mg per serving, or only 600 mcg per pill. But than I look at recently answered questions and they answer some like there is 10000 mcg sulfurophane, seems misleading...Hope I'm wrong but this looks like the case.
I'm wondering how sulforaphane will affect my insomnia since antiinflammatories like ibuprofen seem to really help in times of need. Do you have any sleep issues or no?
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I'm wondering how sulforaphane will affect my insomnia since antiinflammatories like ibuprofen seem to really help in times of need. Do you have any sleep issues or no?
It hasn't really affected my sleep I don't think. The last few months I have been oversleeping and at times I have had some difficulty getting to sleep before 2-3.
Yesterday I needed **two capsules in the morning to see a good effect, you can add wasabi to make sure sulforophane is produced - this did make me a little nauseous but it wasn't bothering
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Is it crazy to add wasabi to your broccoli capsules?
No.
A popular plant based medicine in Germany for respiratory and urinary tract infections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeolum#Herbal_medicine) is "Angocin Anti-Infekt N" (https://www.angocin.de/).
The ingredients are Tropaeolum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeolum) and Horseradish(= western wasabi). They both contain Sulforaphane and probably a lot of other stuff.
It's prescription free and marketed in Germany as having antiviral and antibacterial function. Apparantely the combination of the two ingredients makes sure that it's absorbed early in the gut and therefore does not affect gut bacteria (much) but propagates to lung and urinary tract.
I actually take it everytime I feel a sore throat is coming up (and so far I did not catch covid, note this is not medicine advice ;) ) .. I didn't think so far about using it to influence POIS... (my symptoms are managed ok with adaptogens and neurotransmiter precursors)... but I'll think on how I could use it.
EDIT: There are some english language studies too: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=angocin&btnG=
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No.
A popular plant based medicine in Germany for respiratory and urinary tract infections (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeolum#Herbal_medicine) is "Angocin Anti-Infekt N" (https://www.angocin.de/).
The ingredients are Tropaeolum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeolum) and Horseradish(= western wasabi). They both contain Sulforaphane and probably a lot of other stuff.
It's prescription free and marketed in Germany as having antiviral and antibacterial function. Apparantely the combination of the two ingredients makes sure that it's absorbed early in the gut and therefore does not affect gut bacteria (much) but propagates to lung and urinary tract.
I actually take it everytime I feel a sore throat is coming up (and so far I did not catch covid, note this is not medicine advice ;) ) .. I didn't think so far about using it to influence POIS... (my symptoms are managed ok with adaptogens and neurotransmiter precursors)... but I'll think on how I could use it.
EDIT: There are some english language studies too: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=angocin&btnG=
Haha that wasn't me asking, it was part of an article about wasabi I copied and pasted but thanks for your input.
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Limejuice and others who tried: Any updates on your AHCC sucesses?
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I am waiting for restock, people are buying up immuno complex.
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Immuno complex continues to work well. I literally feel stronger (muscles) and sharper (mind) taking this supplement alongside additional vit D. However, I’m definitely not cured. My POIS is very extreme and I’ve suffered for 30+ years.
My recommendation is to try it as long as your otherwise healthy. All ingredients are good for you and required for a strong immune system. If your not otherwise healthy seek professional medical advice.
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"Long Covid symptoms ease after vaccine, say sufferers "
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-vaccine-may-help-long-covid-sufferers-patient-groups/
"Do Vaccines Help COVID Long-Haulers?
— Anecdotal reports say some get relief from their long COVID symptoms after just one dose"
https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91476
Vaccine = triggering Immune Activation?
Immune Activation = Removing transient immune deficiency?
Covid19 vaccine thread
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3639
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I read on google that Covid mRNA vaccines (Moderna, Pfizer) can stimulate innate immunity...
...Assuming the FDA clears mRNA vaccines in 2021 - do you think getting vaccinated by such a vaccine can increase the innate immunity of POISers ( at least those who think they have an innate immunity deficiency) so that there is a theoretical possibility for improving the transient immune deficiency condition during ejaculation?...
...As far as I could understand, innate immunity is not antigen-specific.
....
...I am not sure if it will or won't work for stimulating general innate immunity. But the CEO of Pfizer thinks that it does, which is encouraging.
...
Hi Nanna1,
There is a pre-print paper on the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine that states the innate immune system is also reprogrammed by the mRNA vaccine I couldn't find any mention of NK cells in that paper though.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.03.21256520v1
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I think there is so much mystery in our Immune system the way it behaves as it does. While I love nanna1's theory and certain parts of it are baseline critical to our health, though I feel we have defects in most of our immune cells to begin with, so I question (in my head) whether boosting innate immune cells vs adaptive immune cells (Th1, Th2, Th17 etc) or even vice versa, is in our body's interest. I do am increasingly appreciating nanna1's suggestion of Tri-Methyl-Glycine and SamE, I think they play a vital role in our health state - in my head I call it as 'frozen' state.
That said, my experience with Moderna vaccine has been mixed/positive - I am still debating. It jolted me like I have never experienced my entire life. I had GI symptoms from hell for one day. It certainly indicated to me that something extremely weird is going on in my tummie or intestines. And now I am currently fighting a fungal or psoriasis infection. Dermatologist thought its Tinea, though I think it could be psoriasis. Anyone else experienced it?
getting vaccinated by such a vaccine can increase the innate immunity of POISers ( at least those who think they have an innate immunity deficiency) so that there is a theoretical possibility for improving the transient immune deficiency condition during ejaculation?...
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And now I am currently fighting a fungal or psoriasis infection. Dermatologist thought its Tinea, though I think it could be psoriasis. Anyone else experienced it?
Not sure if relevant, but I gradually got a large number of red, itchy, scaly skin lesions at one point a while back when I changed my diet to incorporate a bunch of prebiotic (not probiotic) foods among other things. The lesions were misdiagnosed as a fungal infection, then a bacterial infection. In the end it seems like it was just some sort of inflammation with no infection trigger. They've gradually been receding over the last year as I've been trying out various measures, and are almost gone now.
Not saying you don't have a fungal infection, but thought I'd let you know my experience. :) Good luck!
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Few things:
a) My lesion is indeed Fungi - Tinea (Ring-worm) confirmed. And I think it is expanding even.
b) Ironically vaccination should have benefited Fungi species.
c) Scary part, assuming the research is credible:
"Although the concentrations of IFN-α were below the detection limit of the assay for most of the stimuli, we observed a significant reduction in the production if IFN-α secreted ...This may hamper the initial innate immune response against the virus, as defects in TLR7 have been shown to result in and increased susceptibility".
So if we have a TLR7 mutation, then essentially we can be sitting ducks to catch a virus (and not mount an effective 1st line response)?
Action item (at least for those that are vaccinated with Pfizer/Moderna, I think): Find which gene(s) codes for TLR7 or Type1 IFN's, then see if we have a mutation(s).
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.03.21256520v1
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@Nanna1 Thank you so much for this miracle of a stack!
I tried everything and this is the only stack that's given me 100% relief.
I wrote about my experience here: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3793.msg42904#msg42904.
But for those having problems with sourcing the products.
Here's the stack I ran:
1. Take the following 15-20 mins before food, 3X day. You will cycle this stack 6 days on, 4 days off, for 5 months:
1. QOL Immuno Complex: https://qualityoflife.net/products/immuno-complex
-If not available, then use the following (this is what I used):
1. AHCC (1 cap): https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Kinoko-Platinum-AHCC-Supplement/dp/B00HG0YZMG
2. Zinc (1 cap): https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Supports-Antioxidant-Protection/dp/B0001VKDDM/
3. Vitamin D3 (1 cap of 5000 IU): Any brand does.
4. Andrographis (1 cap): https://www.amazon.com/Nutricost-Andrographis-Extract-450mg-Capsules/dp/B09B2QJBDS/
5. Copper gluconate (1 cap empty stomach): https://www.amazon.com/GNC-Copper-100-Vegetarian-Tablets/dp/B084KJNQHZ/
2. Vitamin C (2 caps): https://www.amazon.com/DACHA-Nutrition-Natural-Liposomal-Vitamin/dp/B07DR13XSX
3. Beta-glucan (2 scoops - 1g): https://www.amazon.com/Nutricost-Glucan-Powder-Grams-Servings/dp/B07YCT9CZB/
4. Folate: < 200mcg (1X, every OTHER day): https://www.amazon.com/Doctors-Best-Active-Quatrefolic-Non-GMO/dp/B005CD33GI
2. Take 5g Vitamin C IV over 4 days. I spent over $350 for all 4 injections from a local IV therapy near me. I had to split the 4 Vitamin C IVs over 2 weeks (M, W). Take 1 cap copper 3 hrs prior on an empty stomach before IV.
3. Take pre-pack 90 minutes before orgasm. I orgasmed once a week:
1. Caffeine (1-2 caps): https://www.amazon.com/Nutricost-Caffeine-Pills-Serving-Capsules/dp/B01MY5CW7S
2. Citrulline Malate (1 scoop): https://www.amazon.com/Nutricost-L-Citrulline-Malate-Powder-Grams/dp/B00N1A2JM8/
3. Alpha GPC (2 caps): https://www.amazon.com/Nutricost-Alpha-300mg-Veggie-Capsules/dp/B076XNXLR2
4. L-Theanine (2 caps): https://www.amazon.com/Nutricost-Pure-L-Theanine-Powder-Grams/dp/B01AAVGK70/
5. NALT (1 cap): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079NQ1XXW
In total, I spent $725 for this stack for a 5 month period. It's the best $725 I spent in my life.
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Thank Nana1 and others who are helping!
I really want to try the full process but I'm struggling to find and understand all the stuff that I need to take.
I'm leaving in Belgium, does some one by any chance know a place to order immuno complex?
Also I have some question about my pois : First when I'm taking a shower( hot or cold) I'm getting sick right after(not during the shower but when I'm drying my self) it's kinda the same effect I'm having when I'm sick from pois but a bit less stronger and it last 2 ord 3 days insteed or 5 or 6 days. I had Pois for like 4 or 5 years now and I never had problem with shower but it's started about 8 months ago. As you can imagine it's very ennoying not to take shower without getting sick...
I also have the same problem when I 'm eating brocoli, I know it's weird but as soon as I'm eating brocoli (even just a little ) I'm getting instantly sick (I think it's a immune reaction, but I'm really not a specialist).
I read all the post and I tried to understand your theory, I didn't understand too well (just the basic) but does my problem with shower and brocoli can have a link with your theory!
Anyway thank you again Nana1 and congratulations to have find a way to heal your pois! And thank you other people who are helping as well and good luck to everyone who will try this method!
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Hi Hakira117
I also have the shower triggered pois. Also shaving the face or head gives me symptoms which are more worse than those caused by pois. The skin mast cell activation mostly is the cause and this is very difficult to manage than pois, which atleast can be prevented by abstinence.
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Hi aswinpras06
Yes my solution is to do the same as I do with pois : abstinence, so I only taking a shower every 3 week or month, ofc I'm washing important part as much as I can but if I'm having a full shower I will get sick for few days, maybe it's sound disgusting for some of you but I think that if you had the same symptoms of pois after taking a shower or a bath you will do the same.
Fortunately I'm a freelancer and I don't need to meet people or even talk to other people to do my job, so as result I'm not or very rarely going outside anymore, that plus the depression that I'm having because of this sickness make me stay locked at home more and more(wich doesn't help my depression for sure. Any way I still try to stay possitive and will do my best to try to cure my illness or at least make it more sustainable.
This kind of post help a lot to stay positive!
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Thanks Hakira117
You are only one apart from me having shower or bath causing pois like symptoms. A headbath will cause me chest congestion,sinus pain and bad digestion for a week. Very very difficult problem I have tried so many remedies but nothing works. Now with a failed lung and bedridden condition at age 44 I feel very sad that after taking bed bath, just wiping my body with warm water and soap also causes problem but much milder than shower or bath.
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Thanks Hakira117
You are only one apart from me having shower or bath causing pois like symptoms. A headbath will cause me chest congestion,sinus pain and bad digestion for a week. Very very difficult problem I have tried so many remedies but nothing works. Now with a failed lung and bedridden condition at age 44 I feel very sad that after taking bed bath, just wiping my body with warm water and soap also causes problem but much milder than shower or bath.
Hi aswin & Hakira :)
I too have experienced difficulties with POIS symptoms following showers. My own POIS-like symptoms are triggered when I wash my hair with hot/cold water. My solution was to avoid getting my hair wet until the end of the shower, and then only using luke-warm water. Our friendly mod demografx had a similar issue, which he found some relief from by not using high-pressure water on his head, if I remember correctly.
POIS and showers is a topic that has come up several times over the years, you can have a look at our previous discussions by using this search:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=site%3Apoiscenter.com+shower (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=site%3Apoiscenter.com+shower)
Here's a thread that got several replies that mentions mine and Demo's issues:
https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2209.0 (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2209.0)
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…Our friendly mod demografx had a similar issue, which he found some relief from by not using high-pressure water on his head, if I remember correctly.
I thought I would reward myself after “cautious showering” for at least a year. So, the other day I threw out all my “rules” and simply hot-showered ‘my brains out’. At length.
I paid for that DEARLY with terrible symptoms for the next 2 days.
:( :(
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Thanks Hurray. I didn't see that thread.
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Does this theory also apply to females???
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I think this theory is a particularly good fit for women as they lack other possible causes (prostate, semen allergy, ...)
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elish2006, welcome to the forum. FYI, There is some other threads here on the forum if you use the search function for women with POIS.
Regarding the therapy proposed here: I'd think it's best to work with a doctor because from what I read, women are more sensitive to possible auto immune triggers by AHCC (and other immune supplements). (I'm not a doctor so no idea if this is true)
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For AHCC this company is the only maker of the legit stuff. https://www.aminoup.jp/en/products/ahcc/
https://www.aminoupworld.com/ahcc/ list of companies that sell their stuff, so you don't have to just rely on quality of life.
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II. immune activation stack (cycle - 6 days on, 4 days off, for ~5 months or until symptom remission)
**Warning: This therapy is designed to increase the total number of white blood cells and may (or should) increase the occurrence of some illness symptoms over a short-term period of time. The increased feeling of illness may last for several weeks. Cycling off the stack can reduce feelings of illness and improve immune response to the stack. However, fatigue, irritability and brain-fog are not expected to result from this therapy.**
What are your bases for saying cycling off can improve the immune response to the stack ? I keep seeing online recommendations to take such stacks every day. I began following the protocol but don't know how to organize at the end.
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I think overall cycling supplements is a prudent approach, with some exceptions always. To answer your query:
in most cases i.e. in favor of cycling:
a) you stimulate/support your cells to do work and/or change their behavior, instead of making your cells get accustomed to a constant application of an exogenous stimulus i.e. the supplement.
b) it is actually just like dog or child training. Your cells are like you, or little tiny versions of you. In the ideal world you don't want your body to start depending on the substance permanently, your goal is to coax the body into making its own substances in the long-term.
c) Realize that this world is false. Everything has a 'bias', nothing comes without it. Usually in a forum like this, you have people like yourself, and we have our own biases, hopefully which is to help each other 'heal' and to err on the side of caution. On the other hand, (and not to berate) stakeholders that make living by selling supplement products, it can come natural for them to have a bias to take a product daily, advise others to take it daily, more the quantity - merrier be the outcome.
That said, there would be plenty of exceptions to the above general rule:
a) sometimes, all the above is just not a choice. e.g. it is a pharmaceutical medication whose efficacy is only studied while being taken on a continuous daily basis, or when doses are skipped could have deleterious effects.
b) Supplements can fall in this category as well. e.g. you experience a bacterial infection. You would not want to skip days as that is akin to creating "bacterial resistance". You would want a regular exposure of the substance to the bacteria, daily/twice daily etc, until elimination of pathogen. Anti-biotics (pharmaceutical or natural) fit this category well. In other words, when experiencing an outbreak (of some pathogen in your body), you would want a steady/regular approach of using that supplement i.e. prevent pathogen resistance to that compound.
What are your bases for saying cycling off can improve the immune response to the stack ? I keep seeing online recommendations to take such stacks every day.
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I. prevent transient immune suppression (prepack, 90min prior)
caffeine (150mg)
citrulline malate or citrulline nitrate (3g)
N-acetyl-tyrosine (200mg) (https://c4energy.com/products/c4-ultimate)
theanine (300mg)
This looks like it was rewriten from preworkout suplements,
if someone want to try this prepack you can find this ingredients
in meny preworkout suplements(not want to comerciall here).
It works mostly on NO production.
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pois is not solved with a cup of tea
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As for now, I have several practical questions : 1) did more than one people here try the anti-transient immune suppression prepack with some success ?
2) Could somebody explain the role of N-acetyl L-tyrosine in the prepack ? I may have missed it.
3) Could those who tried the immune competence supplements and IV vitamin C make an update on their current situation, after some months have passed ?
Many thanks to all, this forum is incredibly informative and thought-provoking.
I support the author and ask the same questions to everyone on the forum.
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They are now making the Immuno Complex that Nanna1 took again, which makes following the therapy much easier.
https://www.amazon.com/Premium-AHCC-Complex-ImmunoComplex-Andrographis/dp/B00H4GXZUU/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=ahcc&qid=1575303019&sr=8-7
I probably wasted a bit of money buying the ingredients separately, but this will help a lot moving forward.
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350956432_CFSME_A_New_Hope
Another way of going about this to kill HHV-infected cells. It includes three days of water fasting. Someone more medically knowledgeable please look into this and inform us.
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They are now making the Immuno Complex that Nanna1 took again, which makes following the therapy much easier.
https://www.amazon.com/Premium-AHCC-Complex-ImmunoComplex-Andrographis/dp/B00H4GXZUU/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=ahcc&qid=1575303019&sr=8-7
I probably wasted a bit of money buying the ingredients separately, but this will help a lot moving forward.
Good find, Warrior.
On a related note, do you have any issues with mushrooms at all? There's a few people on this forum including myself who get a reaction (probably an immune overreaction) to even the slightest bit of mushroom. I need to resort to Fluconazole tablets as treatment if I accidentally ingest some, so I am reluctant to try AHCC.
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They are now making the Immuno Complex that Nanna1 took again, which makes following the therapy much easier.
https://www.amazon.com/Premium-AHCC-Complex-ImmunoComplex-Andrographis/dp/B00H4GXZUU/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=ahcc&qid=1575303019&sr=8-7
I probably wasted a bit of money buying the ingredients separately, but this will help a lot moving forward.
Good find, Warrior.
On a related note, do you have any issues with mushrooms at all? There's a few people on this forum including myself who get a reaction (probably an immune overreaction) to even the slightest bit of mushroom. I need to resort to Fluconazole tablets as treatment if I accidentally ingest some, so I am reluctant to try AHCC.
No issues with mushrooms, but its not uncommon to hear about people having problems with them. If thats the case, I would just try alternative immune boosting supplements and therapis. I think there are other great alternatives for an immune stack if you were worried about them.