POISCENTER
General Category => Articles, References and Links => Topic started by: Muon on April 07, 2019, 06:24:16 PM
-
The Role of Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor in Etiology of Premature Ejaculation (https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(19)30069-4/fulltext)
If PE is related to POIS and low serum level of BDNF to PE, then BDNF could play a role in POIS.
My brother's BDNF serum level (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2af7202xa3gqpiw/AACrvZK9pbVvp0kUXOAO1NCba?dl=0&preview=Bro+1-5+BDNF%2BCD57%2BGRactivity%2BLP_PLA2%2BCOMT(GENTEST).pdf)
Hypothesis: Serum level of BDNF is lower in patients with POIS when compared to controls.
-
Testing BDNF, then if low, getting it within normal range could be an investigative method.
There are no viable methods to increase BDNF directly, however some supplements are found to encourage BDNF production. Effectiveness of these supplements could be tested after a period of consistent supplementation, these are as follows:
-ashwagandha
-Asian ginseng
-bacopa
-cordyceps
-gotu kola
-Magnolia officinalis
-Rhodiola rosea
-coffee fruit extract
-curcumin
-olive leaf extract
-quercetin
-resveratrol
-omega-3 essential fatty acids, especially DHA (docosahexaenoic acid)
-l-theanine
-niacin
-magnesium, especially magnesium l-threonate
-taurine
-zinc (note that too much zinc can reduce BDNF)[Ref] (https://bebrainfit.com/increase-bdnf/)
One study found that 100mg of whole coffee fruit concentrate increases BDNF by an astounding 143%[Ref] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23312069)
-
Third Point: PE also seems odd but perhaps relevant towards discerning the mysterious mechanism of POIS.
If PE is related to POIS...
It’s not. Flawed studies have mixed up PE and POIS. Not discussing publicly.
-
That's not fair demo, the majority of POISers have PE, you're telling me that's not actually related by a way or an other to POIS?
-
Poll the forum.
-
In my case I don't have PE.
-
Let's do a proper poll on this, I do have severe PE which causes me to last less that 10 seconds.
-
Go ahead.
-
Vandemolen, I removed your post. We discussed this before: you
cannot combine PE and NE! You cannot combine apples & pears.
-
In my case I don't have PE.
me neither - Demo
-
''On the other hand, testosterone administration was shown to increase BDNF protein levels in castrated male rats. Another group also indicated that BDNF mediates the effects of testosterone on neuronal survival. It is also possible that BDNF contributes to testosterone function in the brain.''.
Functional interactions between steroid hormones and neurotrophin BDNF (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083963/)
''Therefore, we conclude that intact BDNF in the peripheral circulation crosses the BBB by a high-capacity, saturable transport system.''
Transport of brain-derived neurotrophic factor across the blood-brain barrier. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9886678)
-
I've been thinking a lot lately and perhaps what links PE, smoking induced POIS and POIS itself, is a dysfunction in dopamine. Perhaps there is a issue of over excitability that causes some sort of neuronal exitotoxicity. For me I never had any problem of getting an
*erection* and I always can
*ejaculate*in like 5 seconds if I over stimulate my self. Maybe the issue is related there.
Ban Warning: edited for profanity
-
Sometimes there is minor friction between my clothing and glans penis while riding my bicycle. I had a few times that I had to stop riding the bicycle because my penis became extremely sensitive to the slightest friction (This is without any erection or sexual thought, it's just limp). This example sounds like over stimulation aside from my PE.
I've read there is a correlation between stress hormones and BDNF. Thus high stress hormones and low BDNF. Since there are some folks here with elevated stress hormones, they might have low BDNF levels. PE is also correlated with low BDNF. Testosterone administration, which seem to be beneficial to some members, can upregulate BDNF implying low levels in these men. There are a couple of members who feel better when doing certain strength exercises, this also upregulates BDNF. BDNF also seem to play a role in mediating neurotransmission but haven't read anything about that yet, just saw some titles of papers discussing this.
-
Testing BDNF, then if low, getting it within normal range could be an investigative method.
There are no viable methods to increase BDNF directly, however some supplements are found to encourage BDNF production. Effectiveness of these supplements could be tested after a period of consistent supplementation, these are as follows:
-ashwagandha
-Asian ginseng
-bacopa
-cordyceps
-gotu kola
-Magnolia officinalis
-Rhodiola rosea
-coffee fruit extract
-curcumin
-olive leaf extract
-quercetin
-resveratrol
-omega-3 essential fatty acids, especially DHA (docosahexaenoic acid)
-l-theanine
-niacin
-magnesium, especially magnesium l-threonate
-taurine
-zinc (note that too much zinc can reduce BDNF)[Ref] (https://bebrainfit.com/increase-bdnf/)
One study found that 100mg of whole coffee fruit concentrate increases BDNF by an astounding 143%[Ref] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23312069)
Only thing that kinda worked is extreme high dosages of zinc..the other ones are lifting symptoms to varying degrees. Don't get me wrong here..i like the effects of taurine, honokiol, quercetin magnesium etc all combined, problem is i need to take extreme amounts and in the end the $$$$ isn't worth the relief. Might as well stay celibate as long as you can and save some health and $.
Try dabbling into low dosages of mescaline, you will be surprised..its like iboprufen, diclofenac, anti histamine and anti depressant in one package. its also cheaper. You can grow your own trichocereus cacti. Psychoactive tryptamines used for migraines and epilepsy are extremely effective, but few can handle the side effects and psychoactive effects. (Causes brainfog)
I seem to get narcolepsy / epilepsy symptoms from pois so its pretty obvious why it helps.
5-meo-mipt was an extreme one ... i tripped my balls off but my pois symptoms were way less.. i simply do not like to repeat it, the body load and psychoactive effects are insane. Its also extremely easy to overdose because a normal dose is 3mg to 5mg...1/2 mg too much and you are going through hell / overdose. Also long term i can see stuff like this ruining your personality especially when taken daily in much lower amounts.
Non psychoactive tryptamines barely help and they have similar side effects to psychoactive ones. Usually anti epileptic drugs help pois even milder medications like gabapentin, fasoracetam and extreme high dosages of taurine. Anti depressants like duloxetine and other neuroprotective SNRI helped long term with heat intolerance and vasospasms, eyesight and tingly feelings, brainfog, however the insomnia it causes is horrible and it does change your personality when you take it long term. Also withdrawals of duloxetine are the worst of all SNRI/SSRI. Some Heroin addicts say its harder to withdraw from high dosages of duloxetine than heroin.
All other drugs only made pois worse or created a temporary bandaid. I liked citalopram because it helped the most with anxiety and didn't had adverse effect on other drugs neither did it change my personality. Iboprufen, diclofenac (nsaids) , anti histamine all help with itch, inflammation and histamine related effects. Kratom helped with pain. And benzodiazapines helped with spinal nerve pain and reduced motor function in muscles.
Psychedelic mushrooms made pois worse long term. Same for MDMA , 6-apb, cathinones, 2C-X drug classes, phenylphentamines and other synthetic shit. Almost all of these synthetic drugs have extremely potent anti histamine/anti inflammatory effects (similar to 120 mg cetirizin or higher ) but long term i think they probably make pois worse. 4-FMP was also good but it simply **** language up your kidneys with local vasoconstriction.
Most promising is mescaline (especially derived from trichocereus bridgessi) and 5-meo-mipt with the latter being shitty because of side effects ( even for me), but i do have to admit it kinda works. Ketamine and phenidines were the best for neuropathy and overall depression (even used once every 2 weeks) but didn't do much for pois itself. If you have depression of pois do ketamine therapy if its legal in your country.
Tried all syntethic drugs out there..only ones i avoided are obvious ones like meth, heroin , mdpv, pcp etc. I recommend not taking drugs at all, the cost is not worth the risk and there are purity issues. I always had suppliers who provided me pharmceutical quality. What lead me to do it was desperation and exploration because i know how neurobiochemistry works and pois clearly (to me) is related to neurochemistry. I also know about receptor affinity of substances and that kinda stuff. Most of the times i knew what i was doing and sometimes i made mistakes. Drugs target way more receptors than research papers show alot of them alter substance P and many other exotic systems, they all cause nerve growth (not always the right kind, be aware) and almost all target BDNF.
Drugs you absolutely have to stay away from all together is magic mushrooms , MDMA, cathinones (3-mmc, 4-mmc etc cathinones simply too addictive even with one dose). They all make pois worse i even believe they probably could cause pois if you abuse them. I can see people using magic mushrooms when their pois headache is bad, i would defo not take this daily or weekly.
Benzofurans like 5-apb , 6-apb, 6-mapb all have therapeutic effects on depression and psychological trauma ( yes it really does, especially 6-mapb and 5- mapb etc) but don't do anything for pois. 5-apb was really enjoyable and had absolutely no side effects it wasn't psychedelic..i usually fell asleep on 5-apb and felt extremely good afterwards (mentally) this is also kinda addicting, to the point where you consider using it as an escape from pois and reality.
2C drug classes have extremely long halve lives and are ridden with side effects like increasing blood sugar and body load (feels like your body weights 4x more).
Many new drugs appear on the market legally and illegal but are all in similar classes like for example benzofuran class,when you tried one in a class usually the other ones have similar effects. If it doesn't help pois or give information then there is no need to use a newer drug of that class in the same category.
All drugs create a false sense of wellbeing (some are authentic tho) and usually create a bandaid on pois but do zero for the underlaying mechanism of pois. Someone who never had MDMA and try it for the first time think they cured pois but in fact making it worse long term.
Also im really experienced ..i had many bad trips and can brush them off and survive while staying sane. Someone who uses tryptamines and take 1mg too much can easily lose his mind. Its not for the faint hearted or minded, also they can worsen emotions caused by pois like depression, isolation etc. Alot of drugs also boost libido, if you stay celibate for 2 months and use drugs one could be compelled to seek release , this could also be an issue. Drugs change your behaviour short term this is guaranteed, this also relates to self control and discipline..
DMT im not sure about ...sometimes it seems to help pois and other times it makes it worse. Even tho it is natural it doesn't always means its good for you. Cannabis is hit and miss, helps long term with inflammation but is more of a bandaid when it comes to pois. At a certain point cannabis made my chronic fatigue worse and made me emotionally blunt..i tried well over 30 strains inc. Cbd strains vaped, eaten and smoked. CBD is an anti psychotic and lowers % neurotransmitters transmitted, it is marketed as anti depressant but in fact is an depressant like all other anti psychotics. I stopped using it because it made depression worse long term, it sedates you so you think it feels better...again another bandaid.
CBD marketed in general is largely controlled by companies who control other giant companies...nothing revolutionary about it. The whole drug war is a scam anyway..make drugs illegal, slip them into the market yourself to make $$$ then arrest people and make more cash...this is what goverments do...there is no drug war, goverments themselfs smuggle huge amount of hashish/drugs into their own country. USA army goes to afganisthan to control the opium industry, then poison their own population with oxycodone / vicodin etc.
Smart drugs / nootropics like noopept and racetams all have beneficial effects on bdnf and nerve protection/ growth. Noopept worked wonders for cognitive recovery but can drop blood sugar or deplete acetylcholine. Sublingual fasoracetam worked really well. I 100% recommend people trying these 2 nootropics, they work wonders on pois brainfog, depression and anxiety. Best 2 things i have tried next to mescaline and tryptamines.
-
Testing BDNF, then if low, getting it within normal range could be an investigative method.
There are no viable methods to increase BDNF directly, however some supplements are found to encourage BDNF production. Effectiveness of these supplements could be tested after a period of consistent supplementation, these are as follows:
-ashwagandha
-Asian ginseng
-bacopa
-cordyceps
-gotu kola
-Magnolia officinalis
-Rhodiola rosea
-coffee fruit extract
-curcumin
-olive leaf extract
-quercetin
-resveratrol
-omega-3 essential fatty acids, especially DHA (docosahexaenoic acid)
-l-theanine
-niacin
-magnesium, especially magnesium l-threonate
-taurine
-zinc (note that too much zinc can reduce BDNF)[Ref] (https://bebrainfit.com/increase-bdnf/)
One study found that 100mg of whole coffee fruit concentrate increases BDNF by an astounding 143%[Ref] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23312069)
This is like a list of things that help POIS acutely for me. Intersting.
-
It seems Waldinger already wrote something about BDNF in relation to stress, depression and PE:
Stress and Premature Ejaculation-A Response (https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)31675-1/fulltext)
-
I wonder if BDNF is involved in poisers with relatively low levels of testosterone.
Brain‐derived neurotrophic factor: A steroidogenic regulator of Leydig cells (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jcp.28095)
I'm dumping these articles here, I will look at them later:
BDNF acting in the hypothalamus induces acute pressor responses under permissive control of angiotensin II (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1566070216300297)
BDNF - A key player in cardiovascular system (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002228281730161X)
Role of the median preoptic nucleus in the autonomic response to heat-exposure (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23328940.2017.1413155)
BDNF Val66Met polymorphism alters sympathovagal balance in healthy subjects (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajmg.b.31069)
Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) Val66Met polymorphism affects sympathetic tone in a gender-specific way (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453014001528)
Neurobiology of BDNF in fear memory, sensitivity to stress and stress-related disorders (https://sci-hub.se/10.1038/s41380-019-0639-2)
-
My guess is lower serotonin causes lower BDNF , and higher serotonin causes higher BDNF
higher serotonin delays ejaculation, that's why SSRIs help. Low serotonin may be related to PE.
SO, the relevant variable is serotonin, not BDNF.
-
This is like a list of things that help POIS acutely for me. Intersting.
Same here. Although I've not tried all of them. So far I think I can really recommend Ashwagandha and Rose Rhodiola. I've known them for several years now, taking them on and off.
-
Serum BDNF can be tested in Berlin see https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3207.0
Flavonoids Induce the Synthesis and Secretion of Neurotrophic Factors in Cultured Rat Astrocytes: A Signaling Response Mediated by Estrogen Receptor (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3708423/)
BDNF and flavonoids:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3708423/table/tab1/?report=objectonly
-
Been browsing poiscenter and had given up after histamines did not work without its severe symptoms like drowsiness. Anyways I saw someone post a list of everything that helped them including L theanine. I had drank 6 cups of black tea and felt insanely relaxed so I knew from previous experience/research it was L theanine that caused the relaxation from black tea. Being aware of this I ordered 400mg capsules of l theanine from amazon. Took 2 capsules morning and night the first day, next day took 800mg in morning and 400mg in evening. I had suffered from premature ejaculation for 6 years, I can Pois in under 20-40seconds and hit orgasm 100% before even lasting 1 minute. So yesterday I tried to Masterbate and lasted 58 minutes before reaching orgasm and ejaculation. Maybe its a one off thing? So I tried the same 800mg in the morning today and could not orgasm or ejaculate for 44minutes and I stopped after this because my hands hurt. I didn't change any other variable except for l theanine and I felt like I had turned the clock back to when I was 15. So is this meant to be happening or what are your thoughts?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine#Pharmacodynamics
-
Something rang a bell here though I'm not sure how to understand the sentence : "TrkB autophosphorylation is dependent upon its ligand-specific association with BDNF, a widely expressed activity-dependent neurotic factor that regulates plasticity and is unregulated following hypoxic injury" (BDNF : wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_factor#TrkB))
Then I found this which might be of interest :
- Hypoxia may decrease BDNF levels : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6174219/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6174219/).
- BDNF overexpression is itself protective against hypoxia, excitotoxicity and death of GABAergic neurons : https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12264-020-00480-z (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12264-020-00480-z) (so low BDNF, etc.).
I would not be surprised if some kind of hypoxia were involved in my POIS, as I have an impaired breathing during POIS episodes (that is, most of the time), and in fact it was one of the first symptoms that I noticed, many years ago, and sometimes it is severe. I know that many people here have this kind of problems too.
(All this may be completely irrelevant, my mastery of these topics is very modest, to say the least.)
-
Interesting stuff, Prospero.
Possibly related: Shortness of breath and subjectively not feeling like I'm able to draw breath deeply/fully is part of my symptom set. Also, there is another thing, which intuitively feels like it may be related: I also generally am very sensitive to cold, which gets worse during a symptom episode. The way it works specifically is that the extremities of my body, feet and hands especially, get super cold in even mildly cold weather, and I have trouble warming them back up. Subjectively it feels almost like the blood flow to my extremities is reduced severely, and my hands and feet get very stiff, and my feet start aching.
Possibly related as well: My dad has a condition whereby his hands get extremely cold and he struggles to get them warm again. I believe he's been diagnosed with Raynaud's disease (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud_syndrome#Primary). Maybe there is a genetic factor?
Bit of a rambling post here, sorry about that. Just putting it out there in case anyone can make sense of it.
-
Circulatory changes poll (https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3384.0)
But I am one that gets severe headaches after sex. It is all over my head. It is not in one spot. In the past it would start out like my head felt deprived of oxygen or something and was very dull achey brain foggy confused feeling. It almost felt as if my brain was burning. I do not sleep well when it is like this. I am very aware of my head the whole time as it feels injured. Normally I sleep like a rock. After a few days of this my headache moves into a more classic headache where it's just painful like a really bad headache. Oddly enough I welcome that because I know I'm out of the first stage and will be better in a few more days. I have to say though since starting testosterone I am not experiencing these kind of severe headaches.
Mast cells release/secrete mediators under hypoxic conditions:
Mast Cell Survival and Mediator Secretion in Response to Hypoxia (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0012360)
Mast cells mediate the microvascular inflammatory response to systemic hypoxia (https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00637.2002)
I'm going off-topic. What I just wrote isn't necessarily related to BDNF. There is however enough stuff to find on this forum that can be a sign of low BDNF and/or serotonin including the thread about women with POIS.
Edit: Perhaps it's better to discuss Blood flow related issues in these threads: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2832.msg36967#msg36967
-
I found a lot of benefits from vit D supplementation and also fenugreek supplementation and also ?coffee cherry? the fruit of coffee beans .. high bdnf.
-
Dried coffee cherry fruit is marketed as Cascara at other places. However don't mistake it with Cascara sagrada which is made from another plant. By the way Cascara sagrada could be a good thing to try as well as it supposedly creates a protective coating in the intestines to reduce the pain and irritation. As for cascara (coffee cherry fruit), it is claimed to have 8x more antioxidants than blueberries.
"The coffee berry fruit has been found to be higher in antioxidants than tea, vitamin C and E, raspberries, strawberries, blueberries, and pomegranate."
-
Coffee cherry fruit undeniably increases BDNF level, however it also has considerable protective activity on reproductive organs as well.
Based on these findings, the authors suggested that the stimulatory effect of the whole coffee fruit extract on plasma BDNF levels is unlikely to be due to the amount of polyphenols or caffeine per dose, but potentially either the amount of procyanidins or to the unique coffee polyphenol profile of the whole coffee fruit extract material.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1028415X.2021.1913953?journalCode=ynns20
This is particularly interesting considering that recent research show that procyanidin oligomers play a role in neuroprotection from excitotoxic injury.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/8B291E8D053143AA5A8D33B65496B034/S0007114512005338a.pdf/modulatory-effect-of-coffee-fruit-extract-on-plasma-levels-of-brain-derived-neurotrophic-factor-in-healthy-subjects.pdf
Coffee fruit skin contains antioxidant compounds that can repair damaged tissues, especially those of reproductive organs.
In conclusion, the methanolic extract of coffee fruit skin can improve sperm characteristics and testicular histopathology of mice after the administration of ethanol for 15 days. The optimum dose for improving sperm characteristics and testicular tissue is 250 mg/kg BW.
https://journal.uinsgd.ac.id/index.php/biodjati/article/view/9280/4958
-
Geniposide, saikosaponin D, resveratrol, paeonol, ginsenosides, geniposide, naringenin, Perilla seed oil, the water extract of saffron, catalpol, extract of C. tubulosa, Rehmannia glutinosa, silymarin, Xiaoyao San, Chaihu Shugan San, Yueju, etc. could prevent depression-like behaviors through increasing BDNF expression. Interestingly, most of botanicals and active components facilitate BDNF expression through promoting cAMP/PKA/CREB signaling way.[/i]
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13020-019-0246-9
-
Brain-derived neurotrophic factor and its clinical implications
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4697050/)