Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms

[berlin1984]

Changes in Gut and Plasma Microbiome following Exercise Challenge in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684203/
" These results provide evidence for a systemic effect of an altered gut microbiome in ME/CFS patients compared to controls. Upon exercise challenge, there were significant changes in the abundance of major bacterial phyla in the gut in ME/CFS patients not observed in healthy controls. In addition, compared to controls clearance of bacteria from the blood was delayed in ME/CFS patients following exercise. These findings suggest a role for an altered gut microbiome and increased bacterial translocation following exercise in ME/CFS patients that may account for the profound post-exertional malaise experienced by ME/CFS patients."

(Note: Other studies have found problems clearning lactate, ammonia etc. So it's again multi factorial. And I know CFS is not POIS for everoyone, but the parallels are too strong to ignore for me.)

(via https://me-pedia.org/wiki/Post-exertional_malaise#The_gut_microbiome )

[berlin1984]

Poll Sex, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia: the Sex Poll
https://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/sex-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-and-fibromyalgia-the-sex-poll.3391/
"
ME/CFS and/or FM has had a great impact on my sex life
Votes: 101
74.8%

ME/CFS and/or FM has had a moderate impact on my sex life
Votes: 27
20.0%

ME/CFS and/or FM has not had an impact on my sex life
Votes: 0
0.0%

Problems with post-exertional malaise after sex make me reluctant to have sex
Votes: 51
37.8%
"

(multiple choice male/female poll)

[Muon]

Stumbled on this:

S100B as a Marker for Brain Damage and Blood–Brain Barrier Disruption Following Exercise

"However, even in the absence of head trauma, it appears that the BBB may be compromised following exercise, with the severity dependent on exercise intensity."

[ThisType]

So I have a slightly different effect from exercise that may add some perspective on the discussion.  If I do normal exercise without high heart rate, it doesn't do much either way for me. If I do intensive exercise (high intensity interval training or high heart rate), it significantly reduces brain fog and slowness for a day or two. If I do it every other day, I'm good for most of the week.
What I've discovered as a function of this is twofold:

1) this appears to jump start my metabolism and keep it going.
2) when doing this exercise, I find that in the afternoon, I sometimes see symptoms that further choline might help. I take choline at night, which may mean the afternoon is when I will be at a low point. My guess is that I process the choline through my system faster as a result of high heart rate exercise

 I also believe there's a spectrum of choline related issues on this site. If I have too much choline I reproduce a different set of the pois symptoms than if I have too little.

 I think the exercise and speed of processing of choline may relate to this observation in that it moves the dial on how much of a particular vitamin or chemical is in the system or how much is processed.

My 2 cents in case it's helpful.

[Muon]

https://www.mastattack.org/2015/05/histamine-depletion-in-exercise/

[berlin1984]

These results really shifted my perspective on POIS with the realization that there are countless genes mutations that could be contributing to POIS, along with many other factors.  For POIS to be so rare I think we probably would have to have multiple overlapping impaired pathways or contributing factors.  This has me thinking that POIS might be like CFS and POTS in that despite the variety of factors leading to it, the body's response to these factors presents itself [for the most part] as one set of symptoms. 

Feel free to also join our genetics discussion in https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=3694.0 :-)

[berlin1984]

Glycogen depletion?

Improvable with creatine, taurine, coffee?

Idea here: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2803.msg43172#msg43172

EDIT: And, of course by eating carbs.. some carbs replenish different glycogen stores differently, something to investigate.

[drop247]

I think it's histamine again. It's even believed exercise induced DOMS is caused by histamine.

[berlin1984]

Yeah i'm not talking about the soreness.
I just meant this sentence by Quantum in the original post:

The main symptom I have after sport is fatigue, and I take an abnormally long time to recover ( 24h to 36 hours).

Google glycogen depletion: https://www.google.com/search?q=exercise+glycogen+depletion

Post-exertional malaise (PEM) and DOMS might be differnt issues.

[Muon]

Orgasm increases NK cells: https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2695.msg32199#msg32199

I just saw this: Exercise Triggers Major Immune System Letdown in ME/CFS.
https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2023/06/17/exercise-immune-system-letdown-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

NK cells increase in blood during exercise in healthy controls but not in ME/CFS patients. NK cell response may not work in POISers with exercise induced POIS symptoms, that is, they do not increase upon orgasm nor during exercise.

[ip_med]

There seems that for some POIS sufferers, there are exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, or else, that will occur after sport and exercise, independently of any sex activity.  Such post-exercised symptoms are less severe and are of shorter duration than a POIS attack, but they nevertheless are a hindrance for normal daily activities.


I am one of those who have shared that problem.  Exercise is beneficial for me in general, but I really have to dose it well.  I must not exercise or do sport for more than 1h30 or 2hours max at a time, must have at least a day without exercise between any other exercise or ejaculation.  I can not do more than 2 times of exercise a week, I have tried to go to 3 times a week, and it is simply too much for me.   

The main symptom I have after sport is fatigue, and I take an abnormally long time to recover ( 24h to 36 hours).  It is less than a POIS attack, and all the symptoms do not manifest, but the day after sport, I am out of shape and not ok.  It is normal for anybody to have some fatigue after sport, and even more at over 50 y/o like myself, but my level of fatigue is clearly more than what is "normal". And this exercise-induced fatigue is additive, just like POIS symptoms.  it adds up if I do sport again, like two days in a row, and it also adds up to any ejaculation within 24 hours before or after sport.   

If I have sport, and have sex the day after, within 24 hours, I may have some symptoms, like 30% POIS, even if I take my pre-pack.  I have share in my method/pre-pack thread that this summer, when I was in pretty good shape, I had sport, than one ejaculation ( with my pre-pack before) the same night, and it was ok.  But I had sport again the day after, even if i felt some fatigue, and pouf.... had about 40% POIS after, the worst POIS attack in more than a year ( since I am using my current pre-pack) and I wouldn't want to see what kind of monster POIS I would have had in these circumstances if I had not taken my pre-pack...!

I sure now take a simpler version of my pre-pack before sport, and it helps, but not to the point that I can have 3 times of sport a week.  It is just more comfortable at work the day after.  I mostly take omega-3, curcumin, quercetin, other antioxidants like astaxanthin or rosemary or vitamin C or else, and sometime ibuprofen.  I am still in the process of finding what works best.

Recently, romies have shared he has the same exercise-induced phenomena, having brain fog and fatigue after exercise.  He also shared his pre-pack for sport, and has very good results with it ( see at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.msg19834#msg19834 ).

If you have also POIS-like symptoms after exercise, please share your experience in this thread.

If you do not have any symptoms after sport, do share also.

Metabolic myopathy