Alcohol and POIS

[Jon]

Hey guys. I figured that this may be a good topic to start. Alcohol effects my POIS in different ways. Sometimes I can get a good buzz on and other times it makes me feel down and slow.

Sometimes the day after I drink, especially in the morning with the hangover, I feel neurologically and mentally improved. For example.. this past weekend I went out with some friends and drank quite a bit of brugal (Rum). The day after I was able to maintain good alertness and mood throughout the day. I did not experience speaking problems or confusion. This is not the first time that I have felt this the day after drinking, but I hadn't yet felt it to this extent.

Any ideas?

Best,

Jon.

[demografx]

Hangovers often "hung over" me horribly - with a disproportionate reaction to the amount I drank.

2 beers could lead to a 3 - day "hangover" - SIMILAR to POIS - but not the same.

When we raise the Fund $ Goal, I am hoping that our future medical research will eventually investigate some of these possibly-POIS-related anomalies. In my case,

severe jet lag hangover (even in same time zone)

and

severe exercise hangover

Jet lag and normal exercise produce unusual symptoms (ALWAYS DAYS) that other people don't seem to have.

As a result of my successful POIS treatment, these bizarre extremes in jet lag and exercise are reduced. Not "cured".

[kurtosis]

Hey guys. I figured that this may be a good topic to start. Alcohol effects my POIS in different ways. Sometimes I can get a good buzz on and other times it makes me feel down and slow.

Sometimes the day after I drink, especially in the morning with the hangover, I feel neurologically and mentally improved. For example.. this past weekend I went out with some friends and drank quite a bit of brugal (Rum). The day after I was able to maintain good alertness and mood throughout the day. I did not experience speaking problems or confusion. This is not the first time that I have felt this the day after drinking, but I hadn't yet felt it to this extent.

Any ideas?

Best,

Jon.

If (big if) POIS is connected to too high levels of noradrenaline then alcohol consumption in the right environment may actually reduce the perceived stress level and reduce noradrenaline and adrenaline levels the next morning. Do you feel reduced anxiety on the hangover mornings where your thinking is improved?

Oddly, too much alcohol or alcohol consumed in a stressful situation appears to increase the stress response. This may be one of the reasons for drunken fights. Increased adrenaline and impaired cognition would seem a cocktail likely to produce violence. It's one of the weird things about alcohol and possibly the reason why there are different kinds of drunk depending on a disposition, adrenergic reaction to alcohol and circumstances in life at the time one is drinking.

It sure is a neat theory anyway

[Jon]

Thanks, Kurtosis, For your response.

Yes I do feel a reduced anxiety on hangover mornings. The 'hangover' feels good because I feel more alive.

[phenethylamine]

When one is hung over, they experience something called a glutamate rebound.  Glutamate rebounds temporarily increase glutamate levels in the brain.  If pois results in lowered glutamate levels, perhaps this spike in glutamate may serve as a treatment.  Glutamate is closely associated with memory, learning, visual processes, and a whole bunch of other areas reportedly effected by POIS.

[hurray]

Having an O when I am drunk often leads to my POIS symptoms being reduced. I would never recommend somebody try this, I'm just relating my experiences.

As Kurtosis mentions below, it could relate to my stress levels being lower when I am intoxicated, leading to less POIS after the O. I have observed many times that lowering stress levels at the time of O usually helps to minimize my POIS symptoms.

Another theory might relate to how alcohol consumption affects the cholinergic system, which I don't fully understand. When you type cholinergic into Google, the first result states:

"Neurologically, cholinergic is the abbreviated term referring to acetylcholine. The parasympathetic nervous system, which uses acetylcholine almost exclusively to send its messages, is said to be almost entirely cholinergic."

The parasympathetic nervous system includes the Vagus Nerve, and also seems to have a vital role in sexual activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasympathetic_nervous_system#Sexual_activity

[Quantum]

Having an O when I am drunk often leads to my POIS symptoms being reduced. I would never recommend somebody try this, I'm just relating my experiences.

As Kurtosis mentions below, it could relate to my stress levels being lower when I am intoxicated, leading to less POIS after the O. I have observed many times that lowering stress levels at the time of O usually helps to minimize my POIS symptoms.

I do not drink very much alcohol, because of my slow liver ( it does not take much alcohol to make me sleepy ).  However, what reduces my anxiety level reduces my POIS severity and duration as well.  So I tend to believe that it is the temporary stress reduction, and also the lowering of inhibition caused by alcohol, that may lead to a reduction in POIS symptoms. 

For sure, there are much better way to reduce anxiety than alcohol, and, like you, I wouldn't recommend its use as part of a POIS symptoms prevention system.   Usually, people using alcohol as a way to control their stress and anxiety end up, after a while, with a worst situation and more problems than before using it.

[superfrancais]

As I mentioned in the Rutgers survey I am very sensitive to alcohol. When I start drinking, even a small quantity, I feel good in the beginning but soon I have symptoms similar to pois (feel bad, depressed, difficulty to think, talk to people). The symptoms are similar but I can tell I have no pois.

Regarding hangovers during the day after, I don't remember feeling particularly good. I feel like I have... hangover :-)

[COLM_2]

Hi Superfrancais (& Quantum),

I also have had to almost completely eliminate any more than one drink of alcohol every now and again from life.
 
Since my 20's, alcohol has accelerated depression in me, and also impacted very badly on my POIS symptoms.

However, in the last two years, implementing a nutritional, supplementation (Quality Multi-Vit, Moducare, Quercetin, Acidophilus, Omega 3, Vit D, Vit C,  some Reservatrol etc etc)  and a health lifestyle strategy in good exercise. I have noticed that I am now able to tolerate alcohol a bit more. I particularly notice this with beer, as before I had to avoid beer completely because symptoms would come on strong very soon after a half pint even, with lethargy, depression, cognitive and negative and also feeling very lethargic the next day, even after two pints.

Maybe my digestion is better now, even though I do not intend to make alcohol a regular habit, only once or twice per month. Even with two years of discipline around diet and lifestyle, I am disappointed with overall reduction in symptoms, so may start trying to evaluate some other strategies (like MyTelease or other). Need to study this board again.

All the best !

[Quantum]

Hi Colm, Superfrancais and everyone,

I notice that only in this thread, there are 4 POIS sufferers who mention they have a marked intolerance for alcohol ( Colm, superfrancais, myself, and Demo, upper this thread, in 2012).  I would be interested to know if it is a common feature among POIS sufferer.

I know my personal intolerance is linked to a very slow metabolism ( elimination) of alcohol by my liver.  Alcohol is eliminated by the liver, and when not done speedily and efficiently, toxic effects occur. Chances are it may be a part of what causes you toxic effects as well .  I have a slow liver for everything, in fact.  I will be sleepy after a large meal, for instance, and in particular if there is fats in it.  It's better for me to eat less, but more frequently.  I lived my childhood and early adulthood with some drowsiness from my last meal.... when I left my parents place, I discovered that eating less was great for me, less fatigue and less drowsiness.  And I have lost, since, my greeny complexion.....


My own way to help with alcohol, apart from limiting my alcohol consumption, is to take milk thistle before alcohol intake.  This helps the liver in working faster, and protect it from toxic residues.  For the upcoming Holiday season, milk thistle will again be my faithful helper.  It helps me both with alcohol and larger than normal portions.  I have to stay fit, as my business do not close during the holidays, so it really helps me have less loss of energy following alcohol intake ( even if only one glass of wine, I get very tired and sleepy, so it is not to allow me to do the fiesta, of course... It is just to be able to drink a minimal amount and not having a backlash from it )


I share with Demo the exercise intolerance as well ( he mentions it in this thread).  It has greatly improved from various change I have made, but I am still capped at 2 times a week of 60 to 90 minutes of sport.  I have tried 3 times a week of badminton or tennis, but I get too tired, not enough time to recover, even if I am trained and otherwise in good shape and not in POIS, so yes, i have a kind of exercise hangover, manifesting in a slow recovery ( fatigue, mostly ).  Milk thistle, along with antioxidants, help me a lot for exercise too.  I take some before my 90 minutes sport activities, and it helps a lot.  The liver, when the body works in anaerobia like in demanding sports, has to detox our system of the acidity excess, the ammonia, etc...  so, when done too slowly, recovery time is slower.  I suspect I am particularly sensible to acidity in my blood, as it causes inflammation throughout the body, not unlike POIS.  The brain, in particular, is affected by this, and a feeling of fatigue is often what comes from inflammation in the brain, even if it is a very slight state of encephalitis.

Milk thistle is a safe supplement for me, it may help others here as well with alcohol intolerance, with overall health, or with POIS ( I have already used it in my POIS pre-pack, but when trying to cut back on the number of supplements in it, it was one of those I had cut - no particular reason ).  I take only normal dosage.  Allergy is possible, it's a plant, but it is not usual.  I never had no problem with it, but when I was younger, and not well centered ( read: hot tempered!), I use to become a bit more aggressive when taking it, because of the increased energy.... my usual drowsiness kept my underlying anger at bay, it seems... yoga and meditation, as well as therapy, learned me to manage my emotions, so I no longer have this side effect.   For more information about milk thistle, see http://examine.com/supplements/milk-thistle/ . 

I saw lately that the absorption of the active ingredients of milk thistle ( sylimarins) are increased by lecithin, I will try this next week, and take my milk thistle capsule with lecithin, and see if I get better results  ( I am still not able to get to this 3 times a week exercising I want).

If someone decide to try it, after having checked that it is safe for his situation, let me know about the results  ( like less side effects from alcohol, more energy, more effective digestive process, less drowsiness after meals,...)

[Going less Crazy]

I completely avoid alcohol.  Creates brain fog and POIS like symptoms.

[COLM_2]

Quantum,

Appreciate the contribution on Milk Thistle. I had been taking this supplement also up until recently, when the nutritionist I periodically discussed diet strategy with suggested I leave that (MT) one out.

Curiously, I also take lecithin granules.

Some weeks back, when at a party I particularly noticed that I was able to have a few alcoholic drinks including beer (normally would bring a lot of lathargy even without POIS cycle), and had very limited negative effect of alcohol that day. Last night, I was at a party and even after one drink, I was starting to feel unwell and was not so good all evening and wasn't good earlier today.

I think the difference "might" have been that I took the Milk Thistle last time but haven't again, up to today that is. About six hours back, having read your post, I took a milk Thistle supplement along with the lecithin granules and this may have helped get my liver back on track.

Definitely not recommending MT so that a person drinks more (I don't recommend alcohol at all in POIS cycle), but as the holiday season approaches, this is something I will have as a weapon during possible over indulgence of food, as I believe I also may have liver processing issues.

Hopefully we will also get more contributions on the alcohol & POIS impacts from other members here soon.

[Quantum]

I think the difference "might" have been that I took the Milk Thistle last time but haven't again, up to today that is. About six hours back, having read your post, I took a milk Thistle supplement along with the lecithin granules and this may have helped get my liver back on track.

Colm, Thanks for your feedback.  I am very happy to know that I may have been of help in reducing some of the symptoms preventing you from feeling healthy and energized.

In the following weeks, or at Christmas, you will have some opportunities to confirm if whether or not it is milk thistle that helps you with alcohol.

Some degree of chronic liver failure ( sluggish liver ) seems to be present in a subset of POIS sufferers, it could be interesting to make a survey about that.  Symptoms go beyond alcohol intolerance:  post-meal drowsiness, over-reaction to normal doses of drugs or supplements ( because they are not eliminated normally), fatigue, yellowish color in the white of the eyes, itching of the skin, a predisposition to some milder form of hepatic encephalopathy, if something like too much exercise ( or an O or E ? ) comes and disturb the body biochemical equilibrium, and that the liver is very slow to reestablish homeostasis ( normal state) .  This may not be relevant for every POIS sufferer, but there may be many having this metabolic "challenge". I do not believe that some degree of liver failure is the primary cause of POIS, but I do think it can be an aggravating factor.

[Quantum]

I would like to add some other information about the management of a slow liver metabolism. 

Apart from milk thistle, there are some others "friends" that bring support to a sluggish liver:

- clear,source water, a lot of it,  1 liter to 2 liters a day ( 30 to 60 onces), or till your urine is clear in the toilet  ( assuming your are not taking B vitamins, which color the urine in bright yellow)

- Artichoke.  You can eat it as a vegetable, or take capsules.

- Black radish  , also excellent for liver cleansing

You can easily found liver support supplements combining milk thistle, artichoke, black radish, and maybe boldo or other plant extracts as well.  Personally, I prefer to have them separately, so I am not stuck with a fixed dosage combination.

If you feel lighter after meals, feel more energized, less fatigue, less headaches, that your complexion becomes rosier and less yellowish green, and the white of your eyes is getting whiter rather than yellowish, even way down under your eyelids, that's a good sign, keep up the good work

[joelawerence]

Alcohol makes me almost POIS free for the duration I am drunk and also early the next day. Then POIS slowly starts coming back to it?s original state as the day goes.

[erik]

Hi Joe,
great to hear we have almost the same experience.
For me 2 or 3 glasses of wine does the trick. I dont need to get drunk, a bit tipsy works also well, and the next day starts with no symptoms.
Which is a big difference, cause if i don't have alcohol, the day starts with all those devastating pois symptoms.
Only after a few hours the pois tries to come in, try to fight it with quercetine, 5 htp, or grapefruit. But untill now no total succes of preventing it.
Although in the evening it eases and next day mostly no more symptoms.

[demografx]

Hey, erik, belated welcome to POISCenter!

[joelawerence]

Hi Joe,
great to hear we have almost the same experience.
For me 2 or 3 glasses of wine does the trick. I dont need to get drunk, a bit tipsy works also well, and the next day starts with no symptoms.
Which is a big difference, cause if i don't have alcohol, the day starts with all those devastating pois symptoms.
Only after a few hours the pois tries to come in, try to fight it with quercetine, 5 htp, or grapefruit. But untill now no total succes of preventing it.
Although in the evening it eases and next day mostly no more symptoms.

Hi Erik. Even for me even a couple of drinks is enough to reduce POIS significantly and I become POIS free when slightly drunk. Need to see the mechanism behind that. I know that dopamine increases and there may be some other chemical changes which bring this reaction.

[staypositive]

Alcohol makes me almost POIS free for the duration I am drunk and also early the next day. Then POIS slowly starts coming back to it?s original state as the day goes.

Same.

[demografx]

Same