Author Topic: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue  (Read 486 times)

Ciccio

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Please read this article: https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/73267822/2017_Russell_Alice_Elizabeth_1064415_ethesis.pdf (Read especially p. 38-43 and p.65-66)

I have a question, did you have a traumatic event or a stressful event before POIS?
or/and did you have infection before POIS?

"The major non-protein route of TRP metabolism is formation of KYN, catalyzed by rate-limiting enzymes: indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase (IDO) or TRP 2,3- dioxygenase (TDO)"
"TDO is inducible by stress hormones, e.g., cortisol, prolactin, and by substrate, TRP" and
"IDO is activated by pro- inflammatory factors, e.g., interferon-gamma (IFNG), tumor necrosis factor-alpha, IL-1 beta, and lipopolysaccharide" (https://openaccesspub.org/article/51/jbd-13-218.pdf)
Some of the thetryptophan catabolites (TRYCATs), like 3-HK and QUIN have noxious effects including neurotoxic, excitotoxic, cytotoxic and pro-oxidative effects.

Pathogens can take advantage of this imbalance. For example EBV (Epstein?Barr virus), "{...} EBV-transformed B-cells express elevated levels of IDO causing Trp degradation to Kyn, which ? in turn ? suppressed the expression of the activating receptor NK group 2, member D (NKG2D) receptor on the surface of NK cells (63). This might be important since NK cells have been suggested to control the proliferation of EBV-infected B-cells in the acute phase. In the same report, it was shown that IL18 suppressed the effect of Kyn on NKG2D expression. It might be speculated that the suppression of NK cell activation by IDO-expressing EBV-infected B-cells serves as an escape strategy of the virus. Recently, it was shown that in vitro generated macrophages expressed IDO after infection with EBV and displayed T-cell suppressive activities" (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2014.00384/full)

I don't speak English very well, so i't s difficult to explain and make a complete summary, but please read also this article:
- https://goo.gl/eJeBzJ (TRYCATs and gut microbiota)

Personally, I believe that POIS begins, with a stressful/traumatic event or with an infection in conjunction with gut dysbiosis or irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) (maybe there are also genetics predispositions). Stress can induce TDO. EBV is present in 90% of population, and can take advantage of the imbalance and go in parts of the body where normally does not, the virus stay in a particular latent form and become activated by orgasm or ejaculation. This pathogen elevate IDO causing Tryptophan depletion, the consequence is that there is an imbalance between Tryptophan and Kynurenine, this imbalance provoke insomnia, cognitive and emotional symptoms of POIS (symptoms vary because of genetic and diet). Kynurenic acid acts in astrocytes and block glutamate and dopamine release wich causes cognitive dysfunction. In some cases is possible that the virus causes also an autoimmune reaction to the semen, but not always! (EBV is linked to a lot of autoimmune diseases, chronic fatigue syndrome too). Our immune system does not recognize this virus because of immunosuppression caused by IDO.
Also read this: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2018.00229/full
I'm sure that POIS is a particular form of chronic fatigue syndrome! The infection theory of Pois can explain the heterogeneity of this disease and at the same time explain a more complex autoimmune disease (provoked by the pathogen) of what thought by Waldinger. Yes because I'm sure that people with POIS have also antibodies to β adrenergic and muscarinic cholinergic receptors (and not only) like persons with chronic fatigue syndrome. 

Nas

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2018, 06:16:35 PM »
Viral infection has been disscussed immensly lately following a thread about a potnetial dormant infection causing pois.
I personally tried aciclovir anti-viral but it did not effect me, but others did report improvment using the medication.
Perhaps viral testing is required to pinpoint the potential dormant viruses that we might suffer from.

b_jim

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2018, 02:16:34 AM »
I agree tryptophan pathway may be linked to Pois even if i doubt pois is viral but all is possible.

Recent studies seems to prove that Sodium bicarbonate is effective against autoimmune diseases.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/drinking-baking-soda-sodium-bicarbonate-may-treat-autoimmune-disease.58958/

You note the cholinergic link and the "cure" is very easy : 2 grams of bicarbonate in 250ml of water.
Very cheap and very safe exept if you follow a poor sodium diet.


[I take bicarbonate for my gastritis not Pois but if it could help I would say no  :) ]
Taurine = Anti-Pois

Quantum

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2018, 09:57:07 AM »
Hi Ciccio,

This is what brought me to use IDO and TDO inhibitors against POIS.

See http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1988.msg15559#msg15559
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Ciccio

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2018, 12:45:09 PM »
Does anyone have tried Berberine? Berberine is a IDO inhibitor : "Ability of berberine to inhibit human preparation of IDO is stronger than that of a most powerful IDO inhibitor, 1-methyl- TRP". At the same Berberine have also a powerful antifungal, antibacterial and antiviral activity!

1. http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AJPS20120700023_68016032.pdf
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4879420/
3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4503092/
4. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960894X07000066
5. https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/49/1/411?text=fulltext

b_jim

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2018, 02:47:37 PM »
I just learn there is a syndrome called tryptophan syndome :


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eosinophilia%E2%80%93myalgia_syndrome

The list of symptoms is EXACTLY the pois symptoms.
Is it possible that tryptophan is pumped or recaptured after orgasm and causes something close to this  ?

There are immunological symptoms, histamines, flu-like symptoms
Myalgias, fingertips, rash, muscular weaknes, pimples...
Troubles of memory, communication, speach, concentration...

It might explain why B3 works because it might avoid overpumping tryptophan. It might explain why serotoninergic meds works for same reason.
It might explain why sugar increases Pois symptoms by helping tryptophan absorbtion in competitiion with other amino acids.

Amazing.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 03:02:30 PM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois

swell

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2018, 07:47:38 PM »
I take echinacea and goldenseal extract it helps me a little in pois I bought from whole foods.  It supposed to contain berberine but since there is no Rx quality brand on berberine so not sure how much berberine my med has i would guess a small quantity.  It does help my sore throat a lot.  It helps somewhat my pois, but I still suffer 7 day full and no matter what I take or do its still 7 day adn I have tried a lot of stuff, NAC, glutathione, ALA, Sam-e, Vit-B's, Niacin, just about everything.

Does anyone have tried Berberine? Berberine is a IDO inhibitor : "Ability of berberine to inhibit human preparation of IDO is stronger than that of a most powerful IDO inhibitor, 1-methyl- TRP". At the same Berberine have also a powerful antifungal, antibacterial and antiviral activity!

1. http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AJPS20120700023_68016032.pdf
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4879420/
3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4503092/
4. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960894X07000066
5. https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/49/1/411?text=fulltext

nanna1

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2018, 09:58:52 PM »
Does anyone have tried Berberine? Berberine is a IDO inhibitor : "Ability of berberine to inhibit human preparation of IDO is stronger than that of a most powerful IDO inhibitor, 1-methyl- TRP". At the same Berberine have also a powerful antifungal, antibacterial and antiviral activity!

1. http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AJPS20120700023_68016032.pdf
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4879420/
3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4503092/
4. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960894X07000066
5. https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/49/1/411?text=fulltext

Thanks Ciccio for posting about the IDO-infection connection and the link https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2014.00384/full. I also thought your links 4 and 5 on Berberine were pretty cool. I looked up a bioavailability study for Berberine and it is pretty low (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134654/). But still, link 5 seems to indicate that Berberine (in EBV) would function more like a true cure than a treatment of symptoms. Someone just has to improve pharmacokinetics. Interesting!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 10:20:45 PM by nanna1 »

swell

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2018, 09:17:45 PM »
nanna1 or any professional here with chemistry knowledge.  I have been making my own liposomal Glutathione, VitC etc though have not had full success with POIS.  I am starting to question if my recipe is giving me the benefit. I use an older technique of LivOn labs I learnt through googling, there are some patent filing documents from various people as well explaining the technique: buffered Sodium Ascorbate powder, L-Glutathione, Sunflower Lecithin, 100% ethyl alcohol and distilled water.  Using an ultrasonic cleaner it takes about 50 mins to create liposomes.  I think Berberine would be an excellent candidate in liposomal form than taking it in powder capsules.  Though I have doubts if my recipe is creating true liposomes or not.  Anyone here with experience creating liposomes? 

Does anyone have tried Berberine? Berberine is a IDO inhibitor : "Ability of berberine to inhibit human preparation of IDO is stronger than that of a most powerful IDO inhibitor, 1-methyl- TRP". At the same Berberine have also a powerful antifungal, antibacterial and antiviral activity!

1. http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AJPS20120700023_68016032.pdf
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4879420/
3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4503092/
4. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960894X07000066
5. https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/49/1/411?text=fulltext

Thanks Ciccio for posting about the IDO-infection connection and the link https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2014.00384/full. I also thought your links 4 and 5 on Berberine were pretty cool. I looked up a bioavailability study for Berberine and it is pretty low (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134654/). But still, link 5 seems to indicate that Berberine (in EBV) would function more like a true cure than a treatment of symptoms. Someone just has to improve pharmacokinetics. Interesting!

nanna1

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2018, 08:13:42 PM »
nanna1 or any professional here with chemistry knowledge.  I have been making my own liposomal Glutathione, VitC etc though have not had full success with POIS.  I am starting to question if my recipe is giving me the benefit. I use an older technique of LivOn labs I learnt through googling, there are some patent filing documents from various people as well explaining the technique: buffered Sodium Ascorbate powder, L-Glutathione, Sunflower Lecithin, 100% ethyl alcohol and distilled water.  Using an ultrasonic cleaner it takes about 50 mins to create liposomes.  I think Berberine would be an excellent candidate in liposomal form than taking it in powder capsules.  Though I have doubts if my recipe is creating true liposomes or not.  Anyone here with experience creating liposomes? 

Does anyone have tried Berberine? Berberine is a IDO inhibitor : "Ability of berberine to inhibit human preparation of IDO is stronger than that of a most powerful IDO inhibitor, 1-methyl- TRP". At the same Berberine have also a powerful antifungal, antibacterial and antiviral activity!

1. http://file.scirp.org/pdf/AJPS20120700023_68016032.pdf
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4879420/
3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4503092/
4. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960894X07000066
5. https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/49/1/411?text=fulltext

Thanks Ciccio for posting about the IDO-infection connection and the link https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2014.00384/full. I also thought your links 4 and 5 on Berberine were pretty cool. I looked up a bioavailability study for Berberine and it is pretty low (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134654/). But still, link 5 seems to indicate that Berberine (in EBV) would function more like a true cure than a treatment of symptoms. Someone just has to improve pharmacokinetics. Interesting!
Sorry Swell, I don't know the chemistry for that. Hopefully, some else can help.

Muon

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2018, 06:16:20 AM »
Why don't you guys check your Kynurenine and Tryptophan levels?

Muon

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Re: Kynurenine/Tryptophan and the link with infection and fatigue
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2018, 12:18:15 PM »
Click on the second link and go to file Bro 1-2 for Tryptophan: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.0