Author Topic: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3  (Read 662 times)

Muon

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 12:07:44 PM »
I actually did test them before and after an orgasm. I also was under the assumption years ago that these particular cytokines might play a role but I'm not so sure anymore. Click on the dropbox link inside this thread and read the file 'notes' first for timestamps:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2545.0

The reason why I post these comments is because I want to prevent you from staring blind on one set of parameters which may have nothing to do with POIS. I just backed it up with some tests (not 100% proof because you will need a larger group). Perhaps you may want to think of other (inflammatory) pathways than IL-6, TNF-alpha and NF-kB related. I'm just being positive critically here.

Edit: NF-kB has been tested twice (not present in dropbox link) but not immediately after an orgasm unlike IL-6 and TNF-alpha. So NF-kB might still be involved within a very short time frame after orgasm.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:24:24 PM by Muon »

Guts

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 12:59:40 PM »
1. Ate gingko biloba leaves, twigs , fruits and seeds because there were alot of trees growing nearby. Also took extract at high dosages for long periods of time. It reduced itching but that doesn''t imply it has anything to do with LOX or COX. Other than reduction in itching it did jack shit for other symptoms.

2. Works but you need high dosages, pharmokinetics are garbage and hard to ingest in sufficient quantities. Products on the market are dosed too low and too expensive.

3. Fish oils... took 20 grams of extract for about 3 monhts staight, did jack shit altough it helped with depression and mood. Might as well eat fish all day every day.

4. Thyme , completely nonsense because the content of compounds variates alot. Also the effects are barely noticable even at really high dosages. Only thing it does is reducing anxiety. Does jack shit for allergy symptoms.
5. Jack shit
6. jack shit, altough high dosages work wonder for anxiety or depression too expensive overall.
7. never tried this
8. jack shit
9. Works really but you need extremely high dosages and the pharmacokinetics are shit, you only absorb small amounts and the half-life is shit. tried different dosages for many weeks , usually around 600mg for one month straight. $$$$$$

10. Works however curcumin itself trigger allergic reactions. Dosages taken are 20 to 30 gram of grounded daily prepared in emulsion of lecithins, fatty acids and black pepper. Works wonders for depression and anxiety but actually triggers allergic reactions

11. Not worthwhile like resveratrol. Need high dosages and is too expensive to warrant the effects. Stilbenes are more effective than other compounds when it comes to mast cells because it does reduce itch...but then again only thing is reducing the itch when you are getting destroyed by POIS.

12. Does jack shit. Works for anxiety, breathing problems and actually reduces the negative side effects caused by cannabis. Does help inflammation but does jack shit for the most extreme symptoms of POIS.

13. CBD does jack shit , just helps anxiety but actually causes depression and myraids of symptoms
14. Triggers allergic reactions, seems to worsen everything over time just like NSAIDS.

15. Vitamin C works but you need to inject it in a special way and special solutions. Need years of experience to apply a butterfly IV, IV bag + drip, also you need to process it in a certain  way to reduce its pH. All in all will cost you shitloads of money.

16. Caffeic acid works but it might as wel been rosemaric acid or any other compound. Reduces the itch acoompanied with allergic reaction and reduced the brain fog. Amounts of rosemary used where very high amounts.. high enough to make you cringe for the rest of the day.

17. Tried essential oils.... none of them worked except pinus pinaster oil ( oral ), lemongrass, nutmeg and calamus. Even then the improvement minor, nutmeg is by far the most effective mast cell stabilizer / inhibitor but is also a aphrodisiac and makes you high, also toxic to liver etc.

18. chamomille works against itch and does it well but does little for other symptoms.
19. does jack shit

20. Quercetin works but is too expensive. Amounts you need for a significant reduction in symptoms cause all kinds of side effects just like caffeine including insomnia, stimulation etc etc . not worth the money because again the pharmacokinetics are garbage. Amounts i needed were at least 1 gram of quercetin 3 or 4 times a day and the same amount of rutin.

21. works somewhat, expect to get fucked up by POIS anyway.
22. Ginger .. worst thing i can take
23. doesn't do anything

i've been using cannabis for years now and have been growing CBD rich strains for almost 8 years. Strains are CBD nordle, CBD med gom, Fast eddie, Amnesia auto CBD. Also THC rich strains like white widow, northern lights and many others. Right now i vape 4 grams to 6 grams each day and it does jack shit besides helping me sleep and for anxiety. Even cannabis itself triggers allergic reactions in me now and then. I've also been taking niacin for many years and it actually made everything worse long term, i believe i would have been better off without it.

Most natural compound are eliminated too fast from the body and barely get absorbed. POIS patients already have GI problems and malabsorption so anything besides the injection route will probably be useless. Even then the Half-Life is garbage. I'm not saying you shouldn't try new things but one that doesn't hold a job won't get any worthwhile effects from these expensive supplements. I personally don't even take these threads seriously anymore, i've been isolating compounds for many years and tried them and rarely had any success.

Also the TNF-A model and IL-6 model is severely outdated and rarely is implicated in rarer diseases. Like muon said i've also tested for TNF-A and IL-6 and the results were normal. Everything i read on pubmed did jack shit and everything i read on these forums did jack shit. Only thing that helped is alpha lipoic acid but that's because of my pre-diabetes and has little do with POIS itself. Studies revolve around TNF-a and IL-6 because it's implicated in diabetes and researchers want a big piece of that money industry that's called diabetes so they model their studies after it.

Question is am i better of then previous years with all that cannabis use, supplement and herb use and medicine use.... No i maybe even got worse because of some supplements triggering reactions.  It also made me jaded and made me reject this forum and became very biased towards these idiot researchers setting people in wrong directions.

Also alot of people actually mast cell activation from NSAIDs , LOX or PGE inhibitors this also has been my experience. People don't read the shit that muon for example wrote , people are hang up about taking garlic and niacin and all this other shit because it gives them a feeling they can control the symptoms in which the end is just another delusion.

Guts

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2018, 01:07:45 PM »
o yeah and theanine i have been taking for years.

lately i've picked it up again for lower prices and took higher dosages like 2 grams and 5 grams. reduces anxiety and what have you but actually triggered mast cell activation. My whole face and back was itching all nights.

Muon

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2018, 01:45:25 PM »
@ Guts: You don't know if those reactions from supplements are related to mast cell activation, it's a guess. Bottom line is that more patients need to be tested for obscure/non-standard parameters before we can jump to conclusions.

Other thing is POIS might be caused by different mechanisms and supplement A could work for person X but not for Y, be careful not to discard positive experiences people have with specific supplements (even if these don't work for you and me). Many supplements can trigger allergic-like symptoms in me as well.

Second thing, the problem with supplement related papers is that they have been mostly tested via in vitro experiments. You rarely see any in vivo studies.

Quantum

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2018, 02:41:10 PM »
o yeah and theanine i have been taking for years.

lately i've picked it up again for lower prices and took higher dosages like 2 grams and 5 grams. reduces anxiety and what have you but actually triggered mast cell activation. My whole face and back was itching all nights.

Hi Guts,

In this post, and in your previous post where you list many dosage you took in the past, you mention higher dosage, if not excessive dosage, and then mention side effects.  It is quite normal to get adverse reactions from high or excessive dosage, as many adverse effects are dose-dependant.

My approach has been to use multiple supplements at low dose, and it has yield very good results, if you have the patience to develop your stack over 3 to 6 months.  All in all, it's better to take that slow but safe approach, than go on with years of POIS.

Through your other, longer post you express a huge amount of anger and frustration against POIS, but please, do not project those negative feelings toward this forum and toward its members - they are not the cause of your POIS.  Also, try using less reference to your friend jack ( I am sure you can convey your opinion without constant reference to fecal matter as a way to put emphasis).   We are all affected by the same syndrome that you have.   You could have shared your opinion about those various supplements,which is valuable information, but without the venting aspect, and it would have been more interesting to read. 

For now, nobody has anything clear and established to say about POIS, so be patient, and respect all opinions.  We want this forum to be a safe place for any member to express his thought about POIS, so if you have problem with a hypothesis express on the forum, you can for sure comment on it, but in a polite and respectful way.

Take good care of yourself, Guts, and I truly wish you to find some relief both with your POIS and with your emotional struggle caused by it.  POIS is really heavy on the negative side, and I can say that my 10 years ( and still going on) of psychotherapy have been really a life saver for me, and I do not hesitate to recommend to any POIS sufferer to find a really competent psychologist, who manifest compassion and is intelligent.   It does not heal POIS, but it can heal the trauma of having POIS, and after a few years, things get a little easier to bear.  On the long term, after 5 to 7 years, your life has significantly change for the better ( that is my experience, anyway, because I have found an excellent psychotherapist, who was not afraid of the "severe case" that I was , which was not only limited to me having POIS ).  I must admit that psychotherapy is not cheap, and that I am grateful for having had the money to do so, and I wish anybody could have access to this essential service  ( usually, through the medical system, we only have access to psychiatrists, but they are doctors and only have time to prescribe drugs, essentially - no time to engage in a real therapy, and seeing you for 45 mins to 1 hour every week, develop a deep bond and have time to really be with you and care - psychotherapist/psychologist are more appropriate for this).



« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:58:30 PM by Quantum »
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Guts

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2018, 08:50:55 PM »
@ Guts: You don't know if those reactions from supplements are related to mast cell activation, it's a guess. Bottom line is that more patients need to be tested for obscure/non-standard parameters before we can jump to conclusions.

Other thing is POIS might be caused by different mechanisms and supplement A could work for person X but not for Y, be careful not to discard positive experiences people have with specific supplements (even if these don't work for you and me). Many supplements can trigger allergic-like symptoms in me as well.

Second thing, the problem with supplement related papers is that they have been mostly tested via in vitro experiments. You rarely see any in vivo studies.
Agreed, i just feel we are wasting money by trying so many things. I feel like we would be more effective if we create some sort of funds and do tests in order to pinpoint the mechanisms behind POIS All vitamins and chemicals endogenous to the body usually work the first few times, things like vitamin D, ribosine, acetyl carnitine and so forth . I believe this is due to inflammation and malabsorption.

I agree quantum,  lets just keep it at that otherwise i make this thread so personal.

Anyone interested in  plants, take a look at hydrangea species they contain stilbenoids and all kinds of coumarins which are exclusive to hydrangea macrophylla and relatives. I don't have equipment to seperate the toxins with CO2 but so far i believe those plant to be a source of multiple mast cell stabilizing compounds

nanna1

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2018, 11:28:07 PM »
Thanks Muon for your feedback and suggestions. The data (test results) you provided are very useful for determining which inflammatory paths might be more or less important.  :D

nanna1

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2018, 10:41:27 PM »
Vitamin E:
Vitamin E (alpha-tocotrienol) has the strongest neuroprotective properties of any supplement I have ever seen. It's extremely anti-inflammatory for the brain. Natural vitamin E is a mixture of 8 molecules (alpha-tocopherol, gamma-tocopherol, beta-tocopherol, delta-tocopherol, alpha-tocotrienol, gamma-Tocotrienol, beta-tocopherol, delta-tocotrienol). Most vitamin E supplements sold in stores contain alpha-tocopherol, which is the cheapest and weakest form of the vitamin. The alpha-tocotrienol form can completely inhibit glutamate and homocysteine toxicity through 12-LOX and phospholipase A2 inhibition.
This is most important for the protecting the brain.

Inhibitory potency:
alpha-tocotrienol (Vitamin E)(COX-2, IC40 = 1 uM)(12-LOX, IC100 = 0.05 uM)(phospholipase A2, IC50 = 0.25 uM)(iNOS, IC50 = 1.2 uM)
gamma-Tocotrienol (Vitamin E)(5-LOX, IC50 = 5 uM)(NF-kB, IC50 = 5 uM)
gamma-tocopherol (Vitamin E)(5-LOX, IC50 = 3.2 uM)
alpha-tocopherol (Vitamin E)(5-LOX, IC50 = 5 uM)

Bioavailability in humans (blood plasma concentration after 280 mg/day oral dose):
alpha-tocotrienol = 0.98 uM
gamma-tocotrienol = 0.54 uM
delta-tocotrienol = 0.09 uM
(alpha-tocotrienol) This translates into 78mg/day for phospholipase A2 inhibition and 14mg/day for 12-LOX inhibition.

Sources:
The alpha-tocopherol form vitamin E is not as strong of an anti-inflammatory/neuroprotective as alpha-tocotrienol. Below are some good sources tocotrienols.
--Life Extension Gamma E Mixed Tocopherols & Tocotrienols 60 Softgels
Vitamin E is fat-soluble, so it may take a couple of weeks of consistent supplementation to see the full effect. In general, fat-soluble supplements are not good pre-packs. Water-solubles are are better for prepacks. Also, it may be worth considering taking vitamin E with food.

alpha-tocotrienol neuroprotection against glutamate, homocysteine and arachidonic acid at nano-molar concentrations! Wow!

Tocotrienol Data Dump:
Biological properties of tocotrienols
A list of molecular targets modulated by tocotrienols in various cell types

Ref:
Neuroprotective properties of the natural vitamin E alpha-tocotrienol.
Nanomolar vitamin E alpha-tocotrienol inhibits glutamate-induced activation of phospholipase A2 and causes neuroprotection.
Inhibition of 5-lipoxygenase by vitamin E
Studies of LDL oxidation following alpha-, gamma-, or delta-tocotrienyl acetate supplementation of hypercholesterolemic humans.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:14:44 PM by nanna1 »

b_jim

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 04:01:35 AM »
I took vitamin E since many years, it didn't reduce my Pois.
Taurine = Anti-Pois

nanna1

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2018, 06:24:13 PM »
I took vitamin E since many years, it didn't reduce my Pois.
Thanks for sharing your experience. There are 8 forms of natural vitamin E that are listed in the post above. If you will, could you specify which form of E you supplemented and whether it was prepack or daily? I think that information would be really beneficial to the POIS community. alpha-tocopherol is the most common form of vitamin E sold in stores and online, and it's IC50 values show that it is not an anti-inflammatory.

  Only one of the forms, alpha-tocotrienol, is shown to be neuroprotective at low concentration. The IC50 values listed for alpha-tocotrienol indicates that (in the brain) it is a stronger anti-inflammatory than of all the supplements listed in the original post.

If you can't recall the form you took, your feedback is still helpful. I may not have explained clearly the importance/distinction of the alpha-tocotrienol form in the above post on E. In any case, I will be delighted to hear from anyone about experiences with supplementing the different tocotrienol versions of vitamin E.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 07:04:55 PM by nanna1 »

b_jim

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 02:19:28 AM »
I checked : it's the common form : dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate.
I take it daily 5-10 mg.
As I said, I don't have any problem with inflammatory theory.
But I don't have biological proof that there is inflammatory reaction after ejaculation. My CRP is normal after ejaculation.
I never had improvment with common anti-inflammatory med (ibuprofen, paracetamol). Anti-inflammatory diet never improved my Pois except white sugar and fish.
The "fish-test" is something I recommand to Poisers.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 02:36:15 AM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois

Quantum

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 09:59:54 AM »
I took vitamin E since many years, it didn't reduce my Pois.
Thanks for sharing your experience. There are 8 forms of natural vitamin E that are listed in the post above. If you will, could you specify which form of E you supplemented and whether it was prepack or daily? I think that information would be really beneficial to the POIS community. alpha-tocopherol is the most common form of vitamin E sold in stores and online, and it's IC50 values show that it is not an anti-inflammatory.

  Only one of the forms, alpha-tocotrienol, is shown to be neuroprotective at low concentration. The IC50 values listed for alpha-tocotrienol indicates that (in the brain) it is a stronger anti-inflammatory than of all the supplements listed in the original post.

If you can't recall the form you took, your feedback is still helpful. I may not have explained clearly the importance/distinction of the alpha-tocotrienol form in the above post on E. In any case, I will be delighted to hear from anyone about experiences with supplementing the different tocotrienol versions of vitamin E.


Very informative post, Nanna, thanks for your precision on the exact form of vitamine E that has a high potential of being beneficial in POIS. 

Neuroprotection abilities, for me, are very interesting in POIS, since neurotoxicity through kynurenine pathways activation ( through IDO/TDO upregulation), leading to neurotoxic products, is part of my hypothesis about POIS CNS/brain symptoms, ( cognitive and emotional symptoms).

I think that the natural supplement companies in general are not there yet with alpha-tocotrienol.  Most will list only tocopherols, and some will list tocotrienol as a whole, not detailing the concentration of the four different forms.  I have found one preparation listing all 8 forms of vitamin E, and there are 5.38 mg of alpha-tocotrienol in it ( see https://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-vitamin-e-tocotrienol-complex ).

I read in another post that you have started taking alpha-tocotrienol.  Did you find a specialized supplement with mainly alpha-tocotrienol, or a complex of tocotrienols, or a Vit E complex containing alpha-tocotrienol?   Could be interesting to share the dosage of alpha-tocotrienol in the preparation you take ( and, maybe, a link to this preparation).

One of the best dietary source of alpha-tocotrienol seems to be palm oil ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocotrienol#Sources )

I also stumble upon a tocotrienol education site:  http://tocotrienol.org/en/  .  However, this site appears to give information on tocotrienol in general, and not specifically on alpha-tocotrienol.


P.S.   After some more search, it seems that most, if not all, tocotrienol supplements uses the proprietary complexes of the EVNol serie, from a company named ExcelVite ( http://www.excelvite.com/products/evnol-palm-tocotrienol-complex/ ).  They mainly uses palm oil as a source, and they have 6 different versions of their EVNol complex.   The informational site that I have mentioned above, http://tocotrienol.org/en/ , have been created by ExcelVite ( but they have refrained to put any commercial link on this education site and really focus on the research results, which is good - their name only appear in the "contact" section.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:27:21 AM by Quantum »
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

certainlypois2

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 11:32:33 PM »
Interesting, In the past I thought palm oil might be aiding my recovery. I eat beans cooked with palm oil, i noticed when i ate a lot of the beans during the week i have my best recovery especially from cognitive symptoms. Since living by myself my palmoil consumption is pretty much at zero  and the frequency of those great recoveries have reduced.

nanna1

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2018, 11:58:51 PM »
Hi b_jim,
   Thanks for sharing the vitamin E form. I didn't know there were other forms of vitamin E until I recently started looking up the IC50 values for the allergy/inflammatory pathways. It seems that natural vitamin E found in nature is always a mixture of the 8 forms. The ratios vary depending on the source. dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate is a synthetic form of vitamin E that is not found in nature. Chemist make dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate in bulk to sell to supplement companies because it is cheaper to make dl-alpha-tocopheryl acetate than it is to extract d-alpha-tocopherol from a plant source.

   We may be using different definitions for what constitutes an anti-inflammatory. I am defining "anti-inflammatory" as an inhibitor of an inflammatory pathway according to a quote from Preclinical Development Handbook: ADME and Biopharmaceutical Properties

"In general, potent inhibitors are considered those with IC50 values less than 10 uM [159], although clinically significant interactions are expected when the IC50 values are less than 1 uM." -Preclinical Development Handbook: ADME and Biopharmaceutical Properties

   So when I talk about anti-inflammatory, I mean a substance that has an IC50 value less than 1 uM (micromol/L). According to the below chart, ibuprofen is not anti-inflammatory according to the above definition. But the substances listed under the COX-2 inhibitor section are anti-inflammatory (but not necessarily safe).
   For paracetamol, (COX-1, IC50=113.7 uM) (COX-2, IC50=25.8 uM). So paracetamol is not anti-inflammatory either according to the above definition.
   For vitamin D3 (5-LOX, small potentiation)(COX-2, IC50 = 0.1 uM)(TNF-α, IL-6 and NF-kB, IC50< 0.1 uM). Since the COX-2 IC50 for vitamin D3 is less than 1 uM, vitamin D3 is anti-inflammatory. To put this in perspective, D3 is an 800 times stronger inhibitor of COX-2 than ibuprofen and a 250 times stronger inhibitor than paracetamol.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:21:34 PM by nanna1 »

nanna1

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Re: Cost effective alternatives for omega-3
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 01:26:04 AM »
Hi Quantum & certainlypois2,

Sources:
Below is the source of tocotrienols I bought. Gamma-tocopherol and gamma-tocotrienol also have many general health benefits.
--Life Extension Gamma E Mixed Tocopherols & Tocotrienols 60 Softgels

Also, below are some natural sources of tocotrienols from "Tocotrienols, the Vitamin E of the 21st Century: Its Potential Against Cancer and Other Chronic Diseases":


Tocotrienol Data Dump:
Biological properties of tocotrienols
A list of molecular targets modulated by tocotrienols in various cell types
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:22:53 PM by nanna1 »