POIS and Liver Detoxification

[Quantum]

The liver is responsible for a lot of detoxification in the body.  Phase I and Phase II detoxification pathways are well known by medical science.  There are a few Phase I pathways, ( oxidation, reduction, etc..) and about 6 or 7 Phase II conjugation pathways ( glucuronidation, methylation, sulfonation, ...).   Each of the enzymes and other components for each of these pathways are specific, and coded by specific genes.    Efficiency of each of these pathways can be hampered by one or more than one SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphism) in specific genes coding for a specific enzymes in a pathway, and this pathway will then be 30% or 50% or 70% less effective.  This have consequences in the body, of course, in specific circumstances.

I consider that having a low activity in one or more than one of these pathways is part of what predispose someone of having POIS, or having many other chronic diseases that are linked to a systemic inflammation and auto-immune disorders.

I also think that the current state of affairs of our liver at the moment of ejaculation may be one of the main parameter as to why sometime POIS is more severe and sometime less severe  ( at least, in my own experience, severity has been variable, with no obvious reasons )

In order to have a detailed explanation of all this detoxification the liver does, you can find an excellent article in lay terms explaining liver detoxification at http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/liver-detox-pathways/ .   

You may remember Kurtosis, who got rid of his POIS by , mainly, supporting one specific phase II liver detoxification pathway ( methylation).  Later, he shared that by eating healthy foods  ( greens and other veggies, fruits, and so on), he got better results than with supplementation.  I think it may be because healthy foods, like broccoli, kale, cabbage, watercress, red beats, artichoke, cauliflower, berries, apple,pineapple, citrus fruits, and the like, bring so much useful nutrients that they help support and reboot all those pathways, in particular the phase II, conjugation pathways ( that is what nutrition sites explain).  When all pathways are up and running nicely, the overall health level is much higher.

For example, by eating cruciferous veggies, you bring in a lot of sulfur, so this feed the sulfation pathway  ( you may have guess that processed food and poor quality diet do not bring enough).  raw garlic bring a lot, and some years ago, many members have reported some relief from garlic, and that could be one of the reasons why.


I also thought about b_jim success with taurine, which is used in one specific phase two detox process. It may contribute to the positive effect he has with taurine, and it would explain why he takes it everyday, rather than just before E - it's the overall good condition of liver function that could explain resistance to POIS, if his main problem is a dysfunction in the taurin conjugaiton pathway  ( just a hypothesis, here, but it has motivate me to try some taurine every morning for a few weeks, as part of my liver detox program).

This kind of personal weaknesses we may have in one or the other pathways may also explain why one substance help some members, but not others. For example, If your methylation pathway is already ok, methylation support won't do a lot for you, certainly not as much as what it did for Kurtosis ( he had his gene analysis made, and some weak SNPs were found for some specific genes related to methylation, as he have shared on the forum).

I will add to this topic, eventually.  I am currently in the process of optimizing my detox pathways, after years of eliminating the most possible toxic ingredients from my diet and my lifestyle.  You cannot avoid all toxins, so to go further, the next step is to optimize the liver detox.

There are many member here reporting intolerance to alcohol, or caffeine, or certain food, or a general reactivity.  We all sounds like we are high in histamine release, and the the histamine release from the POIS auto-immune reaction is adding to an already high blood level of histamine, among other problems.   

For now, I am including in my diet new things like kale and chard, and I have raised a lot my veggies portions per day.  I was already using broccoli, beets, including the beets green, parsley, bell peppers, blueberries, rapberries, apple, mango, bananas, ... Now I blend all that in very healthy green smoothies  ( I am not found of eating whole, raw veggies.... it's easier when passed through the blender, and nutrients are easier to get, this way.  And raw si better than cooked, keeping more nutrients).  I have started with one a day only, along with my already healthy diet.  I can tell you some detox goes on, as I sometime have some itching since I have started that.  After a few weeks, I have a little more energy than I use to have.  So I continue and expand the process.


It won't hurt anyway, I have always had a sluggish liver, and supporting my liver function can only be beneficial.

Next time, I will try to expand on the problems that may occurs if phase I works well, but phase II cannot sustain the beat.   I think for now this post is already too long....  ;-)

[Quantum]

For those interested in the subject, here is a medical research article of 1954 that links a compromised liver function to a higher blood level of histamine:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1072531/

So, an optimal liver function help to get rid of excess histamine  ( like after ejaculation/orgasm).

[Quantum]

I have read my post and this thread, again, and saw that maybe, a short post on liver detox basics is needed.

First, I drink a lot of water, clean, source water.   The liver is a kind of filter, and produce a lot of products to be eliminated from the body, so the body needs water to do so, to get the "garbage" out in the urine, through the kidney.  In fact, the more your urine is dark ( when you have taken nothing that changes its color, like B complex vitamins), the more it shows that you do not drink enough water for the amount of toxins your body has to eliminate.  If your have detoxified your body, your urine should be very pale in color.

Then, what is helping my liver the most is artichoke, black radish, and milk thistle.  Those 3 are my basic liver support trio.

With only this, I can keep my liver rather clean, and avoid "liver drowsiness" after meals.


Of course, I avoid large meals, and I limit alcohol to one half glass of wine now and then, because alcohol is hard on the liver, and when I do so, I take 25 mg B1 beforehand, to help the elimination of alcohol and limit liver damage.

P.S.   I still take a daily portion of green smoothie, this is now established in my health "routine".  See first post in this thread for why it is good for the liver, and see my current "green smoothie recipe" at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2497.msg21454#msg21454 .  Also, when I feel my liver is lagging behind and that I have symptoms of a high histamine level like sneezing, red eyes, itching, or else, I add vitamin C, 250mg, twice in the day ( vitamin C helps activate the DAO enzyme, si it helps in eliminating histamine excess )

[nanna1]

Hey Quantum,

I love this Liver Detox post! I especial like:

You may remember Kurtosis, who got rid of his POIS by , mainly, supporting one specific phase II liver detoxification pathway ( methylation).  Later, he shared that by eating healthy foods  ( greens and other veggies, fruits, and so on), he got better results than with supplementation.  I think it may be because healthy foods, like broccoli, kale, cabbage, watercress, red beats, artichoke, cauliflower, berries, apple, pineapple, citrus fruits, and the like, bring so much useful nutrients that they help support and reboot all those pathways, in particular the phase II, conjugation pathways ( that is what nutrition sites explain).  When all pathways are up and running nicely, the overall health level is much higher.

For example, by eating cruciferous veggies, you bring in a lot of sulfur, so this feeds the sulfation pathway  ( you may have guess that processed food and poor quality diet do not bring enough).  Raw garlic brings a lot, and some years ago, many members have reported some relief from garlic, and that could be one of the reasons why.

   I have been going back-and-forth between drinking green smoothies (with moderately healthy diet) and eating vegan (with lots of spices). I would drink more green smoothies if I could improve the taste. I sometimes use ground-flax seeds to adjust the thickness since flax does not have a strong taste. Could you give some more info on which combos or ratios of fruits/veggies give you the best taste? What do you use as your base liquid (water-ice, almond milk)? I have been steaming my cruciferous veggies to blunt the bitterness, but like you said "And raw [is] better than cooked, keeping more nutrients". It would be nice to get the full benefit from raw. 

Thanks for your time!

[Quantum]

Thanks, Nanna, and I am glad if this leads you, in particular, to incorporate more organic, raw vegetables in your diet !

After over 8 months now, I have become quite good at making green smoothies     Paradoxx have shown interest, a few months ago, about how I prepare my smoothies, so you will find a detailed post at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2497.msg21454#msg21454 .

If you have additional questions, it will be my pleasure to answer you

[nanna1]

Great link, just in time too. I am about to head out to the grocery store.

[Quantum]

Great, Nanna!  Let me know if your smoothie's taste has got better


As a side note, for the benefit of all members, eating whole fruits in smoothies is far better than drinking fruit juices from the grocery store.  In commercial juices, even if 100% natural fruit juices, the fibers content has, in most cases if not all, been withdrawn.  So, the natural sugar from fruits is then absorbed too quickly - it is the fibers that slows down sugar absorption and prevent a spike in sugar blood level.  Those sugar spikes in your blood is a shock for your body and causes inflammation, and is exhausting your pancreas, and cause too much insulin secretion, which is bad for your health.  3 to 4 or more of those spikes daily is very bad for your health, and can lead you to type 2 diabetes in your 50s ( and it is, for so many people, in Western society!)  So, eating whole fruits is one of the best way to get your sugars, and eating them in smoothies is equivalent to eating them whole.   

Also, eating white bread is detrimental for the same reason - fibers are withdrawn, in refined, white flour - so go for the whole bread, healthy brown bread.  And for taste, after a few months, chances are you will love the rich whole grains bread taste, and will not enjoy those white ones anymore !  Look for labels with "good source of fibers" or similar.

 

[Rare]

Hi All,
Very interesting.
For a long time I didn’t write any comment but this one doesn’t let me the choice!
Intoxication/Poisoning that what I suspected/suppose each time when I was thinking about the reason behind POIS.   May be the “POIS” name is the best describing POIS.
Sometimes, I wonder if it is not the vaccination who is behind.

Here are some finding verified for many years, after the fast (Ramadan 30 days of fasting , often I feel very good even after 4 ejaculations per week!  But this does not continue for long time.

The following link  is about the benefit of fasting on the brain and the human body :
https://youtu.be/4UkZAwKoCP8
 http://dansquelmondevit-on.fr/neuroscientifique-montre-jeune-cerveau-big-pharma-ne-va-letudier-savoir-plus/



A very important point in relation to the current subject of liver, when I practice sport in the period of POIS and I force a little bit, I resent an abnormal fatigue and  become pale and have  shivers over my body. FI my transaminase levels are in the correct range.


I must also confess that my condition is better controlled by the diet advised by members especially avoiding sugar and heavy meals, and take more fruit and vegetables. I take occasionally garlic and fenugrec. MAGNESIUM & Vitamin B Complex (1 to 2 times a week) help me to relieve the headaches particularly after a sports session or lack of sleep.

[Quantum]

Hi Rare,

Thanks for your positive comments about this liver detox thread, and thanks for your input.

You bring a very interesting point:  fasting for a month seems to eliminate your POIS, for a time, and as you resume your usual diet, POIS comes back.   There is for sure, like for many members I think, a small genetic mutation in one of your metabolical pathways, that place a burden on, let's say, one of the detox pathways of the liver, like methylation, or sulfonation, or else. This impaired metabolical process, as we follow an inappropriate diet, slowly cause a kind of "clogging" in our body, and when a certain point is reached, our body is no longer fit enough to go through ejaculation in a normal and functional way.   

In this regard, a healthy diet is supporting the body and alleviate the pressure on one's small dysfunctional mutations, and allow for a more normal ejaculation process.  This could explain why there is more than one type of POIS - we do not all have the same specific dysfunctional genes, so it is not the same enzymatic pathway that is affected in every one of us.  Some may have methylation running at only 30% of normal, some may have sulfonation running at only 40%, and so on.  It is not necessarily mutations that only affect the liver detox process, though.  There is a POIS study that have defined that over 60% of subjects in the study were atopic ( prone to allergy and skin inflammation reaction), so those tiny mutations can also affect the immune system and inflammatory response proper regulation.

[nanna1]

"How To Increase Sulforaphane in Broccoli Sprouts by ~3.5-fold"

[Quantum]

"How To Increase Sulforaphane in Broccoli Sprouts by ~3.5-fold"

Interesting link, Nanna, thanks

[rainman]

Hi Quantum,

You may remember me from a previous thread regarding your pre-pack.

I wanted to share with you that I have elevated liver enzymes. This was diagnosed as non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. It's non-alcoholic because I do not drink any alcohol, and my fatty liver is not due to me being overweight. I weight about 150 lbs. 

I am also very sensitive to drinking alcohol or caffeine (from coffee, but not from tea), as they cause me to be depressed/emotional for a few days after.

Could this be one of the reasons I am pre-disposed to my POIS symptoms?

Reading this thread, I am thinking I need to make liver detoxification a bigger part of my routine to avoid POIS symptoms.

Thanks,
Rainman

[Quantum]

Hi Rainman,

I do think that in my own case, the more my liver is in good order, the less severe are my POIS symptoms, so, yes, I think that a sluggish liver or a liver in great need of detoxification can sure contribute to a more severe POIS.

That's a piece of the POIS puzzle, in my case.

I encourage you to routinely have good habit for you liver.  Drinking plenty of water, eating small quantites at a time, using milk thistle, black raddish and artichoke, eating healthy food, are all part of good liver support.  I also make a clear effort to manage anger, because like said by traditional Chinese medecine, anger is linked to the liver, and I was that anger has a very bad effect on my liver.

Let me know if liver detox have a positive effect on your POIS symptoms!

[rainman]

Hi Quantum,

Thank you. I will start working on a liver detox regimen.

One more issue I have just recently started dealing with.

My current approach to prevent POIS, is abstinence. and, I have done a pretty good job of minimizing any NE's. When they do happen, your supplement pre-pack helps reduce POIS symptoms.

But, lately I have been dealing with frequent pre-ejaculate in small amounts. They are associated to being aroused (no erection). It could be as simple as a hug from a female friend. I would not say the side effects are the same as an NE. But, I definitely feel some POIS symptoms. Maybe just shorter in duration.

Man this never ends. Even with managing to go celibate, and getting NE's under control. Now, I have to deal with this. lol

What do you think I should do?

Thanks,
Rainman

[Quantum]

Hi Rainman,

You are not the only member to report some milder form of POIS from pre-cum fluid.

To date, we cannot stop POIS, we can just manage it better and better.  Keep on refining your control method, overall, and you will get less and less symptoms.   For most members, it's not possible for now to achieve 100% control all the time ( only for those who have identified a main cause, like gluten and other food, in GLC'S case).   But any relief is appreciated - I wish I would have put up my pre-pack sooner in my life !!!!   I still have some symptoms from time to time, like 20% at the worst but it's far from the symptoms I used to have, and considering I am getting older and that POIS should hit me harder, I can tell that my method is a huge success, if I do not have releases to often.

I wish you success with your liver detox, and am sure this will help.  After, you will add something else, and in the long run, by building a better health, on the physical, emotional and mental levels, your will have less and less POIS symptoms.

[b_jim]

I have a gastritis since the start of 2018. But acidity is just a consequence. But today I am 99% sure liver is the culprit.
- I can't digest fats
- I awake during sleep with dry mouth and bad smeling breath.
- Hemorrhoid (first time in my life, i become old )
- Yellowed skin
- extreme alcohol intolerence (1 drink of wine and I m down)....

I never consider these detox diet as serious but I tought it's a fashion.
Now, I will follow simple recetttes artishokes, dendelion, rosmarinus.

Taurine seems to be a bile-like molecule, is it linked?

[Quantum]

Hi b_jim,

If you have a yellowish skin, there is definitively something wrong with your liver.  All the other symptoms you mention are also highly consistent with a liver problem ( difficulty with fats digestion, intolerance to alcohol, ...)

And, moreover, taurine helps you, and as I have mentioned in the initial message of this post, taurine is essential for one of the specific phase II liver detoxifying pathways, a conjugation pathway that needs taurine to work properly.

You may have, like me, a very sluggish liver that cannot keep the pace with all the detox it has to make every day, or, you could also have some more definite liver problem, like rainman, who mentioned above in this thread that he has non-alcoholic fatty liver disease ( NAFLD) ( stéatose hépatique non-alcoholique, en français, https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A9atose_h%C3%A9patique_non_alcoolique ).   So, whatever is your exact liver problem, it would be a good idea to have it checked by your doctor.

Of course, taurine is good for you, but you could benefit from adding other liver support like those I use and have mentioned above:  artichoke, which is very good, black radish, and, be sure to try milk thistle ( Chardon-marie), which is an excellent antioxidant for the liver.  Here in Canada, there are liver support preparations containing all of these in one pill ( here is an example: https://labsuisse.com/produit/florabile-2/?lang=en .   This one, taken with milk thistle / chardon-marie, and drinking lots of water, is very helpful for an overwhelmed liver !).   

Fenugreek, vitamin C and lecithine are also very, very liver-friendly, and I also add them if my liver has problems ( in addition to my top-3 stars, artichoke-black radish-milk thistle).

Before taking any alcohol, and I only take half a glass, I take 25 mg of vit B1 along with some vit C, which helps avoid the toxic effect it has on me ( technically, those 2 vitamins boost aldhyde dehydrogenase activity (ADH) , and help eliminate faster the acetaldehyde formed from alcohol degradation, a mid-by-product that is toxic, and had to be changed to acetic acid by ADH to become harmless - but my liver is too slow at doing that, and need help!)

I do not think my POIS is only caused by my liver, but I can testify that when my liver is jammed/ill, and that my digestion is impaired, POIS is far more severe for me.  I use to have that yellowish skin color, up until about10 years ago, and it was still worse when I was younger.  In my 20s, I use to have severe booths of gastritis ( vomiting for 3 days, not being able to eat or drink anything, and ending in emergency room for intravenous rehydratation and anti-nauseous IV therapy..... my life was still a nightmare, back then....).


In addition to the supplements, I often use some regular, daily gentle physical massages, in the solar plexus region, and on the right side of the abdomen, just under the ribs, where the gall bladder and liver are.  This helps a lot to relieve the liver.   You may consult a competent massotherapist to show you how to do it, if you are not sure about how to proceed. (( I just looked for a video that could illustrate a bit of that, and found this one, which seems ok: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QinldxD_1c  ),  Go gently at first, you will find very painful points, they have to be relieved slowly. 


Sorry if this is too much information at once... but I had to fight against POIS, alone, for many decades, so I had to become expert in many health areas in order to try and have a normal life despite POIS, and gather a wealth of information, in order to be able to help myself and carry on.  And liver support is one of those area I had to learn a lot about!

Let me know if you have any question about liver detox, b_jim.   I am confident that by supporting and cleansing your liver, your health will get better and better, and your POIS, far less severe. At the least, your gastritis will come to an end, and your skin will lose its yellowish appearance

If you, or any other member, have any question about liver support and cleansing, I will be happy to help !





 

[b_jim]

Thanks a lot for such a good post. I bought artichoke + rosmarinus caps. And chicory powder (for breakfast).
I will try to cooke a black radish. next week.
I take vitamin C and broccoli sprout.

Another thing I tried is put Hot water bottle (bouillote) close to my liver. Temperature seems to help.

[Hopeoneday]

Thanks a lot Quantum i learn a lot from you, and by resarching all stuff related to pois, i found that lovering homocastein can be a lot of benefit by taking TMG betain.
I ordered to test.
Did you test TMG betaine for liver?

[Quantum]

Thanks to both of you for your positive feedback!  I appreciate it


About your question, HOD, yes, I tried betain in tablets, with low dose.  The first time I tried it, a few years ago, I had too much reaction ( maybe it was too fast detox restart...).   I then started green smoothies, and eating more veggies, and it worked way better for me.   

So now, my source fo betain is mainly beets, which are an escellent source of betaine ( in fact, the name "betaine" is derived from the word beet). I often include beets in my green smoothies ( which then turn red   )   Betaine is good for the liver, by supporting the methylation pathway, which is part of the liver detox phase II pathways ( conjugation pathways).  This betaine pathway is an alternative pathway in the methylation cycle, lowering homocysteine, alongside the main pathway, which is using methylfolate.  My green smoothies, with kale, spinach, broccoli, and else,also bring me methylfolate, and lots of other useful nutrients that are needed to make detox pathways working, and my liver thanks me for this

I tried again some betaine in tablets, a year or so later, after taking green smoothies for many months, and I didn't have the side effects I had the first time I tried it ( fatigue, headache,..), maybe because my green smoothies have made the main part of the detox, and that my liver was in far more better shape..   It seems that for me, it works way better with fruits and veggies, than with isolated supplements .  I say that because I also tried methylfolate in supplementation, a few years ago, in the form of 5-methyltetrahydrofolate, and I was so ill for a few days, even with very small doses, that I tried it only 3 times, and never wanted to try it again.... and with veggies containing methylfolate, I have no issue at all... go figure.... I strongly suppose that healthy fruits and veggies bring all the multiple nutrients that are necessary for a good overall rebooting of the detox functions of the liver, and help many aspects of the liver detox at once, unlike using a single supplements. Maybe I would tolerate methylfolate supplement now, if I would try it again, but to this day, I have chosen not to...