Author Topic: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms  (Read 5678 times)

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2016, 11:39:07 PM »
Hi TTP,

I am glad for you that your genome mapping have lead to actual results in improving your health.


When I have first found about the IDO and TDO upregulation and its possible role in POIS pathophysiology, I have also considered that the positive response obtained by many members with niacin was linked with niacin having a inhibitory effect on IDO and TDO.  I search for any confirmation of this, but to no avail.  All I have found is indirect and vague findings, like at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25933499  ( and it is not surprising that IDO is activated when niacin is deficient in diet, but that does not imply that niacin supplementation will further inhibit IDO when there is already sufficient niacin in diet).  At the least, niacin supplement can make it sure that the least possible amount of tryptophan is used for NAD synthesis, so tryptophan is more available for serotonin synthesis and other useful metabolic functions.  I sure hope that a study will test this and clarify if whether or not niacin is a IDO and/or TDO inhibitor, by biofeedback.

What source of luteolin do you plan to use ?  There are plants known to contain luteolin, but it is rarely found as a dosed supplement in mg  ( except maybe for a supplement called Neuroprotek, that I heard about from Nightingale )

Are you going to try this combo for POIS, or for exercise-induced symptoms, or both ?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 12:42:22 PM by Quantum »
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fsol

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2016, 05:05:07 AM »
Just posting to add my own experience to this thread:

When I was younger, I could easily increase my strength with weights in the gym and so on, and see progress quite quickly. After POIS this has become nearly impossible. I don't lift weights anymore due to an injury, but I do yoga, sometimes swim and bike to and from work over a very steep hill every day.

I notice that the pain I get in my thighs doesn't get better, even though I bike over the same hill many times a week. Like I just don't get stronger. Also, I'm recovering slowly from yoga, even though I get into a good routine. Overall, it just feels like it's hard to progress with any kind of exercise. I often wonder if it's just hard in the beginning or if I will get over this "hump" at some point. But so far I haven't gotten over it, and haven't had the energy to try really hard either.

I do feel that exercise clears some of my symptoms, just like exercise or a good swim will do if I have a hangover after a big night out.

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2016, 12:51:13 PM »
Just posting to add my own experience to this thread:

When I was younger, I could easily increase my strength with weights in the gym and so on, and see progress quite quickly. After POIS this has become nearly impossible. I don't lift weights anymore due to an injury, but I do yoga, sometimes swim and bike to and from work over a very steep hill every day.

I notice that the pain I get in my thighs doesn't get better, even though I bike over the same hill many times a week. Like I just don't get stronger. Also, I'm recovering slowly from yoga, even though I get into a good routine. Overall, it just feels like it's hard to progress with any kind of exercise. I often wonder if it's just hard in the beginning or if I will get over this "hump" at some point. But so far I haven't gotten over it, and haven't had the energy to try really hard either.

I do feel that exercise clears some of my symptoms, just like exercise or a good swim will do if I have a hangover after a big night out.

Thanks for this input, fsol.  It really sounds like the low recovery I have myself from exercise and sports, except that for myself, there was no "before POIS" period for comparison, since I have it from puberty  ( and was not in sports at all when I was younger - was ill more often than not with allergies, cold, respiratory infections, etc )

In moderate amount, exercise is good for my POIS, and for overall health, like for yourself.  But if I do a little too much, than It is no longer beneficial, and if I have a long recovery period and is out of shape the day after exercise, it is far better for me to avoid any sexual activity that day, because the fatigue from sport would amplify POIS symptoms.
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Mr Raba

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2016, 09:05:14 PM »
Hi Quantum,

Please accept my apologies for the agressive tone of my previous post.  Having a horrible POIS attack at the time is no excuse for it.   That is so unlike me though. I usually can keep civil even then.  I did notice however  eating eggs while on a POIS  attack changes my personality.  Hmmm. I  wonder why.

And thank you for keeping calm and not  scalating things with your kind response and sincere advise. It is appreciated.

Simultaneous onset of CFS and POIS since Feb 1993. 
Married since 1989.

Helped by Immunocal (I explained how to take in previous posts).  Significant relief day one and day two.  It affects neurotransmitters!

demografx

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2016, 09:37:47 PM »
And on behalf of Daveman & myself, I'd like to thank Quantum + Mr  Raba for the civil discourse contributions. That's the exact spirit of the forum that we laid out on the Welcome Page.
Usually have major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.

Mr Raba

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2016, 09:54:35 PM »
EDITED :Now on the topic of not recovering well from excersise,  do you feel a warm feeling of well being right after you excercise and stronger and tighter muscles two days later?  Like your muscles getting harder.

The reason I ask is that I have tried l-arginine for a few days and noticed this nice feeling coming back atfter slowly increasing dose to 1000mg twice a day. Among other things  L arginine increases nitric oxide. Which also helps to relax blood vessels and increases blood flow to muscles. Weight trainers use L argiinine and  fairly high amounts of amino acids in their drinks. See Composition a product that uses various  amino acids below.
http://m.gnc.com/GNC-Pro-Performance-AMP-Amplified-Wheybolic-Extreme-60-Original-Chocolate/product.jsp?productId=50109946

Actuallly amazon lets you see the amino acid table printed in back label. Might want to try that better. So you can see arginine.

I feel the above gnc recommendation of amino acids maybe  a very high amount so please use caution.


I do not take l-arginine on day two of a POIS attack though. It makes me feel like something physical has gone wrong. Very unpleasant body feeling.  some of it on day 3 as well

Interestingly when I took half the recommended dose of the gnc product above I noticed an incredible  feeling of wellbeing and strength   that lasted 3 to 4 hours. After that I felft a bit odd.

I did not try it again because I realized  it was a very powerful synergistic combo of amino acids and decided to play it safe till I can risk dealing with surprises. but because I have to work full time to support a large family with POIS and CFS I have not done it  yet.  If you are going to try any of the above please use caution,  I would not try the large recommended dose at first try. Also check with your doc before tryng amino acids  specially arginine just in case. I heard herpes type virus thrive on it. Yes I maybe overcautious on this. 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 11:01:47 PM by Mr Raba »
Simultaneous onset of CFS and POIS since Feb 1993. 
Married since 1989.

Helped by Immunocal (I explained how to take in previous posts).  Significant relief day one and day two.  It affects neurotransmitters!

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2016, 07:55:28 AM »
Hi Quantum,

Please accept my apologies for the agressive tone of my previous post.  Having a horrible POIS attack at the time is no excuse for it.   That is so unlike me though. I usually can keep civil even then.  I did notice however  eating eggs while on a POIS  attack changes my personality.  Hmmm. I  wonder why.

And thank you for keeping calm and not  scalating things with your kind response and sincere advise. It is appreciated.

Thanks for your kind words, MrRaba, and thanks for your apologies.  I easily understand that you may not be yourself when in POIS attacks - I , myself, suffer of a deep personality change when in POIS.  ( you wonder why this happen.  I think it is because inflammation get to the brain, and this personality change is the result of an acute encephalitis)
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2016, 08:06:00 AM »
EDITED :Now on the topic of not recovering well from excersise,  do you feel a warm feeling of well being right after you excercise and stronger and tighter muscles two days later?  Like your muscles getting harder.

The reason I ask is that I have tried l-arginine for a few days and noticed this nice feeling coming back atfter slowly increasing dose to 1000mg twice a day. Among other things  L arginine increases nitric oxide. Which also helps to relax blood vessels and increases blood flow to muscles. Weight trainers use L argiinine and  fairly high amounts of amino acids in their drinks. See Composition a product that uses various  amino acids below.
http://m.gnc.com/GNC-Pro-Performance-AMP-Amplified-Wheybolic-Extreme-60-Original-Chocolate/product.jsp?productId=50109946

Actuallly amazon lets you see the amino acid table printed in back label. Might want to try that better. So you can see arginine.

I feel the above gnc recommendation of amino acids maybe  a very high amount so please use caution.


I do not take l-arginine on day two of a POIS attack though. It makes me feel like something physical has gone wrong. Very unpleasant body feeling.  some of it on day 3 as well

Interestingly when I took half the recommended dose of the gnc product above I noticed an incredible  feeling of wellbeing and strength   that lasted 3 to 4 hours. After that I felft a bit odd.

I did not try it again because I realized  it was a very powerful synergistic combo of amino acids and decided to play it safe till I can risk dealing with surprises. but because I have to work full time to support a large family with POIS and CFS I have not done it  yet.  If you are going to try any of the above please use caution,  I would not try the large recommended dose at first try. Also check with your doc before tryng amino acids  specially arginine just in case. I heard herpes type virus thrive on it. Yes I maybe overcautious on this.

Thanks for this info about what works for you, MrRaba.

In my case, the backlash form exercise presents itself in a different form.  I do not have muscle pain, it is more a general lack of stamina, not unlike the one I have in POIS, but less severe.  The peak if this fatigue is the day after exercise, and usually lasts one day, so 2 days after exercise, I am ok, and could exercise again if my 2 times a week average is respected ( if more than that, I will need 2 days to recower form this fatigue).

I already tried L-arginine in my numerous tests for POIS, but my stomach do not accept it, even at small doses, even with a meal - it gives me strong stomach aches ( heartburns).  But this may help another members, espacially those who have muscle pain like yourself.   I have not made extensive tests yet with amino acids supplements, if I do so, I will write about my results.

Interesting to note, another member, POISse, controls his post-exercise symptoms by taking a protein shaker 20 mins before exercise ( see upper in this thread)
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Quantum

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2016, 08:06:24 AM »
And on behalf of Daveman & myself, I'd like to thank Quantum + Mr  Raba for the civil discourse contributions. That's the exact spirit of the forum that we laid out on the Welcome Page.

Thanks, Demo! 
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Mr Raba

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2016, 02:51:16 PM »
Thanks for your input, joelawerance, it is very interesting.  That would show that not every POIS sufferers have exercise intolerance.


When you were doing sports regularly, and when not during a POIS attack, do you consider having a normal recovery time after sports, or longer than your friends ?

Were you able to do sports 3 to 4 times a week, or were you limited to 2 times like myself, even when out of POIS ?

Thanks!

Hi Quantum. It is a little tricky to explain, let me try my best. Four years ago for about 6 months or so I regularly played Cricket, about 3 times per week. Some days during weekends I even played for 8 hours continuously. At the start of the 6 month period it would be very difficult for me to play for more than half hour on Days 1 and 2 of POIS. But as I started playing more I could play on Day 2 of POIS for more than an hour and after a few days even for hours. Also my recovery period from POIS reduced from 5 days to 2 days gradually and severity decreased by about 75%. It almost seemed like the more I played the more my POIS reduced but had the usual tiredness of playing. By the end of this period I weighed about 74 kgs and looked leaner and stronger.

After that 6 months period I left sports and got married and had ejaculation for almost every other day with reduced POIS. This lasted for around 2 months when for the first time I was able to recover from POIS in 2 days and had much reduced severity. Then gradually over the next few months I got lazy and stopped going to gym due to office work and put on weight and became 90 kgs. My POIS period and severity also increased to my previous levels and since then has been steadily increasing with my POIS period now lasting almost 10 days and severity has also steadily increased.

So to answer your question initially I took longer to recover after doing sports but the more regularly I started playing the faster I started recovering and had reduction in POIS. I felt like I could do sports almost every day if required unless it was Day 1 of POIS.


Please note that exercise increasus nitric oxide. So does niacin and L-arginine
Simultaneous onset of CFS and POIS since Feb 1993. 
Married since 1989.

Helped by Immunocal (I explained how to take in previous posts).  Significant relief day one and day two.  It affects neurotransmitters!

demografx

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2016, 03:48:31 PM »
Many discussions in the past about nitric oxide and POIS.

•Put this in your google search box:
nitric oxide pois site://poiscenter.com

•and to go back further:
nitric oxide POIS site://thenakedscientists.com
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 05:36:16 PM by demografx »
Usually have major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.

demografx

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2016, 05:42:40 PM »
I had good success with Levitra/nitric oxide but then it stopped working. Who knows why???
Usually have major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.

romies

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2017, 12:53:12 PM »
Yes I think the C677T defect is the biggest factor in POIS for me because it impairs an enzyme that is incredibly important for methylation, if you look up methylation pathway it is usually in the center because many other processes in the pathway rely on it.  Proper methylation is crucial for us because it manages or contributes to detoxification, immune function, maintaining DNA, energy production, mood balancing and controlling inflammation. 

I think 23andme just came out with a $99 test, I would highly recommend ordering it.  Not only did it lead to me improving my methylation and helping my POIS significantly, but I also learned I can't tolerate sulfur, need to take high doses of vitamin D, and countless other interesting details I didn't even think a DNA test could tell me like what percent Neanderthal genes you have.  The data from livewello was just the population statistics and what individual genes made up a gene family, all of their data comes from dbSNP which is a very trustworthy source. 

It's almost impossible to analyze the data without a large number of genomes to compare.  After studies confirmed impaired methylation was present in CFS, the Klimas project at Nova Southeastern University was started and it aims to analyze the genetic data of 10,000 CFS patients in order capture genetic issues that increase the risk for getting CFS.  So for POIS we will probably never have a big enough data set to get reliable results unfortunately, but POIS and CFS share many characteristics it seems, and research for that seems to be moving very quickly so hopefully soon we will be able to test if POIS leads to a temporary CFS state and if it does test out treatment options being developed for CFS.

It looks like you are +/- on C677T. This condition can be corrected readily with Methylfolate + Methyl B12 supplements. And you can do a couple of blood homocysteine tests to titrate your dosage.

BTW, I believe as of 2017, the $99 23andme is the ancestry-only test, and does not have the SNP results for methylation pathways etc.


romies

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Re: Exercise-induced POIS-like symptoms
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2017, 01:19:39 PM »
I had good success with Levitra/nitric oxide but then it stopped working. Who knows why???

If you are taking Arginine, ornithine or citrulline supplement for nitric oxide, you would also need have sufficient NADH to generate NO.
And then you will need to have sufficiently low super-oxidant to prevent NO turning into ONOO (very bad). http://ajpcell.physiology.org/content/ajpcell/271/5/C1424.full.pdf