Author Topic: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation  (Read 3700 times)

BluesBrother

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Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« on: January 13, 2016, 03:11:01 PM »
I came across an interview at the Low Histamine Chef about the vagus nerve and pots/mast cell activation which might also contain information relevant for POIS:

http://thelowhistaminechef.com/dr-diana-driscoll-interview-vagus-nerve-and-potsmast-cell-activation/

Dr Driscoll describes her journey of figuring out and treating Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome (POTS), Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (EDS) and mast cell activation (MCAS/D). Why might it be relevant for POIS?

First, some of the symptoms are similar.
Second, Dr Driscoll describes how her symptoms were thought to derive from an autoimmune condition, but she found out that they were neurological - and related to the vagus nerve.
Third, she discusses stimulation of the vagus nerve via acetylcholine agonists (she tried a nicotine patch which stimulated the vagus nerve, but had a lot of side effects - and also discusses supplements).

There has been some discussion of acetylcholine on this forum - but not always linked to the vagus nerve. Cholinesterase inhibitors such as mytelase, which helped Outsider and FloppyBanana, are agonists to acetylcholine and thus stimulate the vagus nerve (as far as my understanding goes, please correct me if I'm wrong)
Used to have brain fog, flue-like symptoms, un-refreshing sleep, extreme exhaustion, muscle and joint pain, digestive problems, social anxiety, urge to urinate frequently.
Niacin and change of diet improved most symptoms. Exhaustion and physical weakness now main problem. 3-day POIS cycle.

COLM_2

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2016, 03:56:10 PM »
Interesting article BB.

If anyone tries it has tried the supplement(s) they talk of for Vagus Nerve support, one entitled VNS support system and another  ParasymPlus, I for one would be interested to hear. Quite expensive including postage :-(

My gut and vagus nerve is telling me this is probably similar to other supplements on the market. Maybe I'm too skeptical. However the article on how a recovery from POTS emerged for her is similar to our search for reversing our symptoms.

Colm
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 04:32:14 PM by COLM_2 »
Formerly user COLM (previous username accidentally deleted). Few decades with POIS.

b_jim

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2016, 04:52:55 PM »
Starsky wrote something interesting with mass cells and niacine.

"POIS is some kind of enviromental sensitivity. Niacin is causing histamine to fill the mast cells, not a release. When they are full then you flush."

Now, we add the element "vagus nerve" to this, we progress.

In the" body responds" below, you have most of the Pois symptoms.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 05:06:42 PM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois

Quantum

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2016, 10:51:30 PM »
Interesting thread.

I was doing some searching about MCAS ( Mast Cells Activation Syndrome) and found this link, where you can download for free a very extensive review of diagnostic and management of MCAS, published in 2013:

https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=42603

(download link for the free PDF at the bottom of the page)

Dr Waldinger has suggested that POIS could imply hypersensitivity reactions of type I and type IV.  The article states that the type of hypersensitivity reactions are possible in MCAS.   Is it possible that POIS could be a specific, sub-type of MCAS, which flares are triggered by E ?


As a side note, in the article linked to above, quercetine is mentioned as one effective way to manage MCAS.  Quercetine has always been beneficial for me in general, and for my POIS as well.   I tried it last year when I have found this forum, which opened me to that possibility that there may be an allergy/hypersensitivity side to POIS.  I knew quercetine was good for allergy, but never have though, in over 30 years alone with this syndrome, that POIS could have been related to an allergy or hypersensitivity reaction.  Empirically, it has helped me, and is since a regular member of my pre-E pack.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 11:30:00 PM by Quantum »
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Going less Crazy

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2016, 01:09:12 AM »
What's a pre-E pack? Lol,

I think the vagus nerve could at least have something to do with this.  It is the nerve from your you know what to your brain right?  I'll look it up in a bit.  Whenever I have a bad O or don't plan right, I do always get this certain sharp pain in my neck leading to my brain that subsides real fast, and than I have my worst POIS symptoms.  So does seem viable for my POIS somewhat.
My POIS 100% managed with modified Paleo Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O and stimulation = neuro POIS from diverted inflammation from the gut. Can O freely. Supplements: currently only chamomile tea, extreme microdoses of turmeric/curcumin

Quantum

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2016, 12:18:24 PM »
What's a pre-E pack? Lol,



Hi GLC,

My pre-E pack is the supplements I take 20 to 30 mins before release ( pre-Ejaculation pack).  To see what it contains, see http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2090.0

I say pre-E instead of pre-O because it happens that I have a E without absolutely no O, so for me, it is obvious that POIS is linked to E, and not to O, at least in my own case.

About the vagus nerve, it has many branches, and for a better understanding of the Polyvagal theory, you will see that there is a dorsal vagal complex ( not myelinated, and older on the evolution line of species ( phylogenetics) ) and the ventral vagal complex , or the "smart' vagus ( which is myelinated, and has appeared more recently, phylogenetically speaking).  According to this theory, the old vagus reaction puts the individual in a frozen, disconnected state, as if dead, and the smart vagus is linked to the communication/socialization mode.  I think the current Rutgers study want to check if POIS is related to our system being shut down in old vagus state, with lowered HRV ( heart rate variability) and bradycardia.   This would means also compromised blood flow to the brain, and becoming socially impaired, which what is seen in the "old vagus" response.  POIS sure shows some similarities with the description of this state.  I am at the beginning of my readings on Polyvagal theory, but so far this is what I have understood from it.


When you mention in another thread that you sometime get out of POIS with a another O under Claritin-D, 24 hours or so later, I wonder if, in the light of the Polyvagal Theory, POIS is not a bad exit from the high sympathetic state of release/O, and instead of returning to the evolved, smart vagus state, our system goes down into the old, shut down vagus response.   If someone find a way back to sympathetic response, and then exit "the other way", in the smart vagus response, then POIS would end..... That is just an hypothesis I make here, but it would explain the situation you describe.   This would also explain why I experiment some sort of intense fatigue after sport, even if not as much as when I have an E... but it sounds like if my system, after high sympathetic state, have a tendency to exit toward "old vagus" state instead of exiting in "smart vagus", relaxed and feel-good state.

Also, It is not talked a lot in Polyvagal Theory articles, but what they call the old vagus response must also be linked to the mast cell activation talked about in this thread. This could be interesting to check about

For anyone interested, I have found a very interesting interview about the Polyvagal Theory, in lay terms, with the founder of this theory, at http://www.sott.net/article/228410-How-your-nervous-system-sabotages-your-ability-to-relate



« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 03:14:18 PM by Quantum »
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Going less Crazy

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2016, 11:55:25 PM »
Sounds interesting and I hope something good is found in the research.

I realized it was pre ejac when I was thinking about it later haha just used to most ppl saying pre-o.
My POIS 100% managed with modified Paleo Diet (@ diet that 100% manages my pois)Believe my POIS stems from inflammation in the gut. O and stimulation = neuro POIS from diverted inflammation from the gut. Can O freely. Supplements: currently only chamomile tea, extreme microdoses of turmeric/curcumin

joelawerence

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2016, 11:39:28 AM »
A very useful article that could explain the Vagus theory of POIS that is currently being researched at Rutgers.

http://drsircus.com/medicine/vagus-nerve-inflammation-heart-rate-variability/

The article touches upon how if the vagus nerve is not stimulated enough it leads to inflammation and that Acetylcholine helps control the inflammation. This explains Outsider and Floppybanana s treatment success with increasing Acetylcholine, as it helps control the inflammation.

Ejaculation is inflammatory (There are a few articles propsosing this, I have posted one of those articles below) but vagus nerve manages the inflammation by secreting the required Acetylcholine.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24421089_Frequent_ejaculation_associated_free_radical_and_lactic_acid_accumulation_cause_noninfectious_inflammation_and_muscle_dysfunction_A_potential_mechanism_for_symptoms_in_Chronic_ProstatitisChronic_Pelvi

When the vagus nerve is not able to stimulate properly the inflammation is not reduced for a long time which is the POIS period for us. As you may all know systemic inflammation to the joints and bones is what causes pain throughout the body. Then the inflammation to brain and parts of eyes is what causes blurred vision, headaches, cognition issues, etc? An inflamed prostate also causes all types of issues including premature ejaculation.

Vagus nerve is also required for increasing testosterone in the body. The body?s free testosterone level naturally drops following ejaculation and again a normal functioning vagus nerve should get it back to normal levels soon, but happens slowly in our case.

So low testosterone and systemic inflammation of the body are the main reasons why we get the POIS symptoms IMO. This explains why Testosterone replacement therapy has worked for a few and anti-inflammatory stuff like Nicain, anti-histamines, fenugreek, acetylcholine stimulators work for some. IMO there will be 100% permanent cure only if the vagus nerve heals and starts functioning as it would in a non-POIS person.

These are all strictly my theories, please let me know your thoughts and challenge me if you disagree with something so that I can research a bit more.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 11:43:13 AM by joelawerence »
30 years old, POIS for around 9 years with increasing severity.
Major symptoms - Severe fatigue, back pain, unrefreshed even after 9+ hours sleep, pain behind eyes, very dry face, bald head with inflamed scalp, digestion issues and constipation. Very low testosterone and high glucose in blood tests.

b_jim

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2016, 03:38:06 PM »
Quote
These are all strictly my theories, please let me know your thoughts
I think you wrote one of the best post to explain Pois ever.
[/quote]

Quote
The article touches upon how if the vagus nerve is not stimulated enough it leads to inflammation and that Acetylcholine helps control the inflammation. This explains Outsider and Floppybanana s treatment success with increasing Acetylcholine, as it helps control the inflammation.

This is a brilliant, brilliant argument.
[/quote]

I can add that sugar increases inflammation, explaining why I had a severe reduction of symptoms since I stopped it.

Quote
Vagus nerve is also required for increasing testosterone in the body. The body?s free testosterone level naturally drops following ejaculation and again a normal functioning vagus nerve should get it back to normal levels soon, but happens slowly in our case.

I still had the feeling that "something is regenerating" after ejaculation. Maybe testosterone, maybe neurotransmitters. My total T is normal but but my FREE T after ejaculation is only 1ng/L above the low limit.
Last days I was looking for arguments if this "something" could be acetylcholine/choline. Human semen is quit rich in cholin and it seems 90% of people don't have enough choline in their diet.
 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 03:48:45 PM by b_jim »
Taurine = Anti-Pois

COLM_2

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2016, 03:49:00 PM »
A very useful article that could explain the Vagus theory of POIS that is currently being researched at Rutgers.

http://drsircus.com/medicine/vagus-nerve-inflammation-heart-rate-variability/

The article touches upon how if the vagus nerve is not stimulated enough it leads to inflammation and that Acetylcholine helps control the inflammation. This explains Outsider and Floppybanana s treatment success with increasing Acetylcholine, as it helps control the inflammation.

Ejaculation is inflammatory (There are a few articles propsosing this, I have posted one of those articles below) but vagus nerve manages the inflammation by secreting the required Acetylcholine.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24421089_Frequent_ejaculation_associated_free_radical_and_lactic_acid_accumulation_cause_noninfectious_inflammation_and_muscle_dysfunction_A_potential_mechanism_for_symptoms_in_Chronic_ProstatitisChronic_Pelvi

When the vagus nerve is not able to stimulate properly the inflammation is not reduced for a long time which is the POIS period for us. As you may all know systemic inflammation to the joints and bones is what causes pain throughout the body. Then the inflammation to brain and parts of eyes is what causes blurred vision, headaches, cognition issues, etc? An inflamed prostate also causes all types of issues including premature ejaculation.

Vagus nerve is also required for increasing testosterone in the body. The body?s free testosterone level naturally drops following ejaculation and again a normal functioning vagus nerve should get it back to normal levels soon, but happens slowly in our case.

So low testosterone and systemic inflammation of the body are the main reasons why we get the POIS symptoms IMO. This explains why Testosterone replacement therapy has worked for a few and anti-inflammatory stuff like Nicain, anti-histamines, fenugreek, acetylcholine stimulators work for some. IMO there will be 100% permanent cure only if the vagus nerve heals and starts functioning as it would in a non-POIS person.

These are all strictly my theories, please let me know your thoughts and challenge me if you disagree with something so that I can research a bit more.

Good addition Joelawerence,

Also important I think to re-mention that Vagus goes all the way to our Gut-Brain, which is why it is worth us being open to the healing that various souls are experiencing through healing approaches to their digestive system and stomach/gut.

Article from same website discusses more about this "functions of the Vagus nerve" http://drsircus.com/medicine/function-vagus-nerve/

Colm
Formerly user COLM (previous username accidentally deleted). Few decades with POIS.

demografx

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2016, 04:09:00 PM »
Excellent article, Colm.
Usually have major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.

Quantum

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 11:22:34 AM »
Another interesting article about Vagal Nerve Stimulation and neuroimmunity:

http://www.nature.com/news/the-shock-tactics-set-to-shake-up-immunology-1.21918
You are 100% responsible for what you do with anything I post on this forum and of any consequence it could have for you.  Forum rule: ""Do not use POISCenter as a substitute for, or to give, medical advice" Read the remaining part at http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=1.msg10259#msg10259

Hopeoneday

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2017, 02:00:14 PM »
It definitly has something with "nerve inflamation".
On pois day 2 and 3 I have so severe ataks of muscule stifines in chest erea,
I somehow survive by short breathing. In those days i can feel that may nerwes is
so sensitive and from that i get heart palpilatins, and stomach bloating...
I the moment of severe chest stifines atacs, the only life safer for me is benzos(xanax) (something deplate GABA in our body and our nerves are ower sensitive).
I discovered that palpilations hapen because bloating of big or small intesines push up my stomach and and that make my heitall hernia spread up, that put presure on vagus nerve an that can couse a lot of reactions in body.
I insisted to my gastro to check with cam and discovered that i have a heitall hernia (cheked by gastro).
I hawe sleap paralyises an seizures, and i discovered that is hapening in laying position at night, because when atacs of chest stifines come in night(muscule stifed so hard, that i barly breathing and my heart is stugling because of that) that put so much presure on head that blod and oxigen cant go properly. (thats my opinion). 


look at his link, some people hawe no problems with heitall but some
http://www.drrtannenbaum.com/index.php?p=162678
I hawe no doctor in my country to evan talk about this.

Dont know to answer question -Wich user is admin? Sory :)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 05:16:27 PM by Hopeoneday »

demografx

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2017, 03:23:44 PM »

Which user is admin?




Hopeoneday, Quantum is Administrator.


« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 03:29:47 PM by demografx »
Usually have major POIS-reduction, treatment consisting of daily (365 days/year) testosterone patches.

TRT must be checked out carefully with your doctor due to fertility, cardiac and other risks associated with it.

40+ years of severe 4-days-POIS, married, raised a family, started/ran a business.

Hopeoneday

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Re: Vagus Nerve and pots/mast cell activation
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2017, 03:42:51 PM »
Hahaha I hited Quantum a milion times, not working fom me.
Olso triyed demografx
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 03:47:38 PM by Hopeoneday »